The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[88Comrade2000]

25 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Assuming Caleb goes #1,

 

if we draft Maye, that will be what I expect

if we draft Daniels I will raise an eyebrow.

if we draft McCarthy I will raise 2 eyebrows

 

What if we draft Nix or Pennix?

[zCommander]

4 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Chuckle.

 

It happens to be what I think they’re going to do too.  Why? Because Maye is the prototypical QB who can win from the pocket and also has escapability and athleticism.

 

But they could pick Daniels.

 

I think all other options are smoke.  

 

I think they will go Daniels. He might be more ready for NFL than Maye. 

 

Edited March 16 by zCommander

[Conn]

I don’t agree with whoever casually said, as a matter of course, that JJ has all the tools you could want. I don’t agree. His arm is nothing special imo. You don’t NEED a special arm if you have everything else. But it’s a tool I want at #2 overall, sorry. Big part of why Daniels ability as a thrower doesn’t excite me at all either, seeing his bang average arm strength (which is already maximized by nearly perfect mechanics). 
 

I’m not advocating for over-valuing a Jamarcus Russell type arm, I’m not just talking about having a ****ing bazooka. I’m saying when you consider the whole package, if you need tie breakers then a special arm, prototypical size, etc…those things become deciding factors. 
 

But I don’t think these prospects are close enough to need tiebreakers, so in the end it doesn’t really matter.

 

Just, on principle I don’t agree that JJ has all the tools I want in my own personal Build-a-Bear franchise QB. The arm isn’t there, for me, even if it’s perfectly adequate and can “make all the throws”. I want more than that. I want impossible throws that a defender could never have expected—right now in this league really only Mahomes, Allen, Stafford, Rodgers, and Herbert can do that consistently. Not even highlight worthy plays, I’m talking just weekly 19-yard sizzlers that should never have been able to safely split the LB and S. But then the ball just arrives. Maye can become the 6th guy in the league with that ability. It’s part of what I covet, and it’s not JUST about arm strength, because again we aren’t talking about scrubs with powerful arms like Jamarcus—but you do need the arm strength to be among the tools in your tool belt to be that type of nightmare that I covet.

Edited March 16 by Conn

[mistertim]

27 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

What if we draft Nix or Pennix?

 

AT #2 overall? I'd have a third eyebrow surgically attached just so that I could raise all 3 at the same time.

 

23 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

I think they will go Daniels. He might be more ready for NFL than Maye. 

 

 

This is based on what, specifically? I keep seeing some people say this but they never expand on it much.

 

IMO it's somewhat of a wash on who is more ready between those two. Daniels has cleaner and more consistent mechanics and can rely on his running ability but Maye has much more experience making NFL 2nd level tight window and anticipation throws (and he can run as well).

Edited March 16 by mistertim

[Voice_of_Reason]

21 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

I think they will go Daniels. He might be more ready for NFL than Maye. 

 

They might.  
 

But He’s not. The “Maye needs to sit” narrative can be t axed back to Orlovsky being stupid. 

 

And I think Maye’s ceiling is higher and longevity is more likely.  

1 minute ago, mistertim said:

This is based on what, specifically? I keep seeing some people say this but they never expand on it much.

It has been a favorite narrative of Orlovsky, Kiper, a bunch of guys who are not employed by teams to pick players because they suck at all of the analysis.  So they make up stories to fill air time.  

[mudhog]

19 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

I think they will go Daniels. He might be more ready for NFL than Maye. 

 

I've seen many comparisons of Maye and Daniels head to head, showing strengths and weaknesses of each. And overall I tend to agree with them. But not once has someone put forth a believable argument that shows Daniels is more pro-ready than Maye. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

15 minutes ago, Conn said:

I don’t agree with whoever casually said, as a matter of course, that JJ has all the tools you could want. I don’t agree. His arm is nothing special imo.

Just to “yes and” this, Daniels doesn’t either.  In fact, McCarthy’s arm talent might be better than Daniels.  
 

Daniels has the added skill set he can win with his legs.  But he’s 200lbs and going to get hurt. 
 

Every dual threat QB gets hurt.  Lamar has missed time.  Hurts missed games at the end of 2022, and was not right in 2023.

 

You need a QB who can win from the pocket.

 

In my analysis of Maye I pointed out a play I downgraded because he was a tick late and the throw was a tick inside and so the DB was able to close and knock the ball out of the receivers hands.

 

But then I pointed out, this throw isn’t available to all but 5 or 6 QBs in the NFL.  The rest can’t even attempt it.  You’ve got to throw the ball 40 yards in the air on a rope.  So does Maye get down graded because he BARELY missed it or upgraded because he could actually attempt it.  Neither McCarthy or Daniels can attempt that throw.  If they do the ball is either easily intercept, or the receiver is being escorted to the blue tent.  
 

I want the guy who can make that throw.  And all the throws like it.  

11 minutes ago, mistertim said:

AT #2 overall? I'd have a third eyebrow surgically attached just so that I could raise all 3 at the same time.

I appreciate you taking my metaphor to the next level.  

[mistertim]

10 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

It has been a favorite narrative of Orlovsky, Kiper, a bunch of guys who are not employed by teams to pick players because they suck at all of the analysis.  So they make up stories to fill air time.  

 

Well if Kiper said it, then we shouldn't be questioning it.

 

10 Times Mel Kiper Was Completely Wrong About NFL Players

[RWJ]

So, Coach DQ was in Tarheel Country watching today's game!  Due diligence. Hmmmm

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 16 by RWJ

[NOLA2DC]

14 minutes ago, Conn said:

I don’t agree with whoever casually said, as a matter of course, that JJ has all the tools you could want. I don’t agree. His arm is nothing special imo. You don’t NEED a special arm if you have everything else. But it’s a tool I want at #2 overall, sorry. Big part of why Daniels ability as a thrower doesn’t excite me at all either, seeing his bang average arm strength (which is already maximized by nearly perfect mechanics). 
 

I’m not advocating for over-valuing a Jamarcus Russell type arm, I’m not just talking about having a ****ing bazooka. I’m saying when you consider the whole package, if you need tie breakers then a special arm, prototypical size, etc…those things become deciding factors. 
 

But I don’t think these prospects are close enough to need tiebreakers, so in the end it doesn’t really matter.

 

Just, on principle I don’t agree that JJ has all the tools I want in my own personal Build-a-Bear franchise QB. The arm isn’t there, for me, even if it’s perfectly adequate and can “make all the throws”. I want more than that. I want impossible throws that a defender could never have expected—right now in this league really only Mahomes, Allen, Stafford, Rodgers, and Herbert can do that consistently. Not even highlight worthy plays, I’m talking just weekly 19-yard sizzlers that should never have been able to safely split the LB and S. But then the ball just arrives. Maye can become the 6th guy in the league with that ability. It’s part of what I covet, and it’s not JUST about arm strength, because again we aren’t talking about scrubs with powerful arms like Jamarcus—but you do need the arm strength to be among the tools in your tool belt to be that type of nightmare that I covet.

I don't disagree that arm strength is important, but I just remind folks that many great QBs don't have canons. Leaf had a bigger arm than Peyton, and Brady wasn't known for having one, either. There is a reason that most QBs are warned against throwing to the other side of the field while scrambling. It is almost like saying I want the biggest, most powerful engine, but you don't care about how the car handles in the turns. A hellcat or sact pack will dominate an M5 in a drag race but get embarrassed on a twisting track. Purdy doesn't have a big arm but almost always makes the right decision to go with the ball, so the arm strength thing,to me, is not as important as the ability and decision-making.     

[mistertim]

8 minutes ago, NOLA2DC said:

I don't disagree that arm strength is important, but I just remind folks that many great QBs don't have canons. Leaf had a bigger arm than Peyton, and Brady wasn't known for having one, either. There is a reason that most QBs are warned against throwing to the other side of the field while scrambling. It is almost like saying I want the biggest, most powerful engine, but you don't care about how the car handles in the turns. A hellcat or sact pack will dominate an M5 in a drag race but get embarrassed on a twisting track. Purdy doesn't have a big arm but almost always makes the right decision to go with the ball, so the arm strength thing,to me, is not as important as the ability and decision-making.     

 

I think one of the operative points of @Conn's post was most other things being equal, then arm talent is a huge tie breaker and plus. IMO he pretty much went out of his way to say it wasn't the end-all-be-all for evaluating.

 

All other things were not even close to being equal when it comes to Leaf vs. Peyton, for example.

Edited March 16 by mistertim

[seantaylor=god]

8 minutes ago, NOLA2DC said:

I don't disagree that arm strength is important, but I just remind folks that many great QBs don't have canons. Leaf had a bigger arm than Peyton, and Brady wasn't known for having one, either. There is a reason that most QBs are warned against throwing to the other side of the field while scrambling. It is almost like saying I want the biggest, most powerful engine, but you don't care about how the car handles in the turns. A hellcat or sact pack will dominate an M5 in a drag race but get embarrassed on a twisting track. Purdy doesn't have a big arm but almost always makes the right decision to go with the ball, so the arm strength thing,to me, is not as important as the ability and decision-making.     

But he didn’t say that. Who are you feeling the need to “remind” that arm strength isn’t the most important thing?

 

[NOLA2DC]

2 minutes ago, seantaylor=god said:

But he didn’t say that. Who are you feeling the need to “remind” that arm strength isn’t the most important thing?

 

It was emphasized, was it not?

[Voice_of_Reason]

12 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Well if Kiper said it, then we shouldn't be questioning it.

 

10 Times Mel Kiper Was Completely Wrong About NFL Players

Kiper should be in the HOF because he made the draft what it is.

 

Bur he’s wrong all the time.  And I think at times he’s intentionally wrong so he can be theatrical when the opposite move happens.  
 

He was on the other day and said “Jayden Daniels has settled into 2.  And now May and McCarthy is a competition.”

 

The entire draft coverage blowing up can can be traced back to him criticizing the colts for passing on Trent Dilfer.  And Bill Tobin said “who is Mel Kiper anyway?” 
 

I love Mel because he basically made this event what it is.  
 

But he’s basically wrong about everything.  

[NOLA2DC]

11 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I think one of the operative points of @Conn's post was most other things being equal, then arm talent is a huge tie breaker and plus. IMO he pretty much went out of his way to say it wasn't the end-all-be-all for evaluating.

 

All other things were not even close to being equal when it comes to Leaf vs. Peyton, for example.

I did not disagree with him. That's literally the first thing I said. It's a nice plus, but ultimately, there are no all-things being an equal dimension. They all have their flaws.  

[FootballZombie]

5 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

You need a QB who can win from the pocket.

 

That's why Daniels is such a rare breed. He is exactly that.

Practically all these other "uber level" dual threat QBs that come out of college are runners that you hope could develop into at least decent passers.

 

Daniels is already beyond that. He is a pocket passer who can run.

 

Dude just put up one of the most prolific passing seasons in FBS history entirely from the pocket.

I could basically count on one hand the amount of prospects that have displayed both the aptitude and production in both passing and rushing on the level JD has.

 

The thing I like most about JD is that if you take away Daniels X factor, he's still a good prospect. Mechanically refined, progression proven, wildly prolific and great decision making as a passer. Gimmie that all day.

[cboatner]

54 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

I think they will go Daniels. He might be more ready for NFL than Maye. 

 

He is more "Kansas City QB ready" as KK would say.

[seantaylor=god]

2 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

The thing I like most about JD is that if you take away Daniels X factor, he's still a good prospect. Mechanically refined, progression proven, wildly prolific and great decision making as a passer. Gimmie that all day.

I agree with you.
 

Any concern that he hasn’t been weighed or measured? What height/ weight is disqualifying for you to not want him to play for our team?

 

At 6’3 1/2 or 6’4 what is the minimum weight you think he needs to be? 
 

And being that his is already 23, and played football at a powerhouse program, how much more weight, if any, do you think he can gain?

[KDawg]

I love the “overthink everything” stage of the off-season. 
 

Next people will be changing their entire evaluation because of these guys favorite cereal brand.

 

The draft order is: Williams, Maye, Daniels. 
 

We could take Daniels, but I don’t think so. I think we’ve moved Howell because of the awkwardness of Howell’s best friend taking his job… (and he was cooked here anyways… that’s important).

[RWJ]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I love the “overthink everything” stage of the off-season. 
 

Next people will be changing their entire evaluation because of these guys favorite cereal brand.

 

The draft order is: Williams, Maye, Daniels. 
 

We could take Daniels, but I don’t think so. I think we’ve moved Howell because of the awkwardness of Howell’s best friend taking his job… (and he was cooked here anyways… that’s important).

Exactly, KDawg.  I have seen so MANY Minny posters salivating for Maye it's sickening.  Sickening because there is NO WAY he gets past us.  They think that we or NE will trade our #2 or #3 pick for him.  Not happening.  CW is Chitown bound.  

[seantaylor=god]

40 minutes ago, RWJ said:

So, Coach DQ was in Tarheel Country watching today's game!  Due diligence. Hmmmm

 

 

 

 

 

Worse I think the game was in DC…

[RWJ]

2 minutes ago, seantaylor=god said:

Worse I think the game was in DC…

Spot on.  My bad.  Got to think that Maye was present at the game too as he follows the Heels and loves roundball.  

[FootballZombie]

1 minute ago, seantaylor=god said:

Any concern that he hasn’t been weighed or measured? What height/ weight is disqualifying for you to not want him to play for our team?

 

Not much concerned that he has not done it yet. Bummed that he didn't, but nothings gonna change in a month so whatevs. As long as I get the data.

 

 

I don't think JD will weight in at a number that disqualifies him in my eyes. Weight has never been nearly as important to me as it is for others so unless a prospect is straight up Forbes, "get that starving man a cheeseburger", sized 167lbs... yeah. He'd have to come in at like 190 at 6'4.

 

 

Teaching good decision making when running is the far more important thing in my eyes. Without that, I don't care if your built like 250 lbs Anthony Richardson your gonna get broken whether you weight 200, 210, 220... Same goes for Maye, just to a lesser degree.

 

 

[zCommander]

35 minutes ago, mistertim said:

This is based on what, specifically? I keep seeing some people say this but they never expand on it much.

 

IMO it's somewhat of a wash on who is more ready between those two. Daniels has cleaner and more consistent mechanics and can rely on his running ability but Maye has much more experience making NFL 2nd level tight window and anticipation throws (and he can run as well).

 

Footwork will be a concern and how quickly can he be ready to start the season. Either I heard or read that he needs to sit for a year. Don't think that will fly well with the fans if that has to happen. 

 

34 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

They might.  
 

But He’s not. The “Maye needs to sit” narrative can be t axed back to Orlovsky being stupid. 

 

And I think Maye’s ceiling is higher and longevity is more likely.  

It has been a favorite narrative of Orlovsky, Kiper, a bunch of guys who are not employed by teams to pick players because they suck at all of the analysis.  So they make up stories to fill air time.  

 

I haven't heard Orlovsky. 

 

32 minutes ago, mudhog said:

I've seen many comparisons of Maye and Daniels head to head, showing strengths and weaknesses of each. And overall I tend to agree with them. But not once has someone put forth a believable argument that shows Daniels is more pro-ready than Maye. 

 

It is close. I would still give the edge to Daniels, and not because he was a Heisman winner. I don't think you have to put an argument together between the two. That has been done here. 

 

The question will be answered soon as to who will fit our new offense better though. We shall see how it goes down then. 

[SoCalSkins]

6 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

Not much concerned that he has not done it yet. Bummed that he didn't, but nothings gonna change in a month so whatevs. As long as I get the data.

 

 

I don't think JD will weight in at a number that disqualifies him in my eyes. Weight has never been nearly as important to me as it is for others so unless a prospect is straight up Forbes, "get that starving man a cheeseburger", sized 167lbs... yeah. He'd have to come in at like 190 at 6'4.

 

 

Teaching good decision making when running is the far more important thing in my eyes. Without that, I don't care if your built like 250 lbs Anthony Richardson your gonna get broken whether you weight 200, 210, 220... Same goes for Maye, just to a lesser degree.

 

 

He has taken unnecessary hits in college and he played 5 years. He’s not going to learn much better decision making between now and when he’s starting in the NFL.

The guy is a far worse prospect than RG3 and has injury riddled career written all over him. You might not realize he is bust because he will likely get hurt so often that it will be a question if he sucks or just got hurt too much. Both is likely the correct answer.