The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Skinsinparadise]

30 minutes ago, srtman04 said:

 

This is all subjective.   There's been so many 1st round busts that this makes it a complete gamble.  I don't think you can say for sure, 100% that all these prospects will be better than what we already have now......

 

Yep, of course.  It's likewise subjective that Sam is a franchise QB.  We are projecting.  That's player evaluation.  

 

It feels like just saying that CONSIDERING an alternative to Sam is oddly controversial here.  If they pick top 5 in a stacked draft at that spot, I don't see its even a little controversial to consider all options.  EVERY reporter who covers this team who talked about the subject believes the same.

 

If they look at Daniels or Penix or whomever and think "meh", then pass on them.  If the new GM thinks Howell has elite upside and is a safer bet than name that QB, then run it back with Howell.  If they love a QB prospect and think Howell's ceiling is limited, then take that QB.

 

Some people here come off confident that they already have the answer for these questions.  That's cool.  I don't.  All i am saying is I think this topic will be a real topic that will be on the table to consider this off season, that's all. 

Edited December 5, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

If you get hired as the top evaulator for the organization and that's your professional evaluation, I'll back your take.  Will see, we are about a month before the GM hire.  I am cool if it ends up you running the team or anyone here from extremeskins.  I trust Josh Harris.  But if its not you, I am deferring to whomever is calling the shots.

We’ll see if they consider me. If they go back and read through this forum, I feel like I have a shot. My track record is pretty good.

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Some people here come off confident that they already have the answer for these questions.

I am. I’d be willing to wager copious amounts of US dollars.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, KDawg said:

What if they hire Bruce Allen?

 

I mean that semi tongue in cheek and as a joke, but it’s also a serious thought. All of this support around here from the fanbase for “whoever they hire” without even knowing who they hire is new.

 

for me its an extension of why I wanted Josh Harris before he became the owner, I loved what i read about him as to how deep he dives into the subject and at least tries to find the best of the best.

 

Bruce Allen was already a punchline in Tampa and was out of work.  And he wasn't even a true GM as to having any scouting background.  So yeah that felt like a Dan Snyder hire.  It doesn't feel at all like a Josh Harris but I'll wait and see.

 

I try even with Dan's hires to give everyone some initial chance and benefit of the doubt until they prove me wrong.  The dude i was out on fastest was Zorn.

3 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

We’ll see if they consider me. If they go back and read through this forum, I feel like I have a shot. My track record is pretty good.

 

 

Super cool.  Evaluating QBs as some say is the toughest job for any scout in any sport.  If you think you got the formula down, I hope they'd consider you for GM.  

 

I've said before if any GM comes up with that niche of just nailing it at the QB spot -- they will make hundreds of millions as they should.  it's a gift that no one has nailed yet, not even our Bobby Beathard.

 

So it would be cool to see someone from Extremeskins of all places to break the mold and pioneer this. 😎 

[NickyJ]

8 minutes ago, KDawg said:

What if they hire Bruce Allen?

 

I mean that semi tongue in cheek and as a joke, but it’s also a serious thought. All of this support around here from the fanbase for “whoever they hire” without even knowing who they hire is new.

It's new because the owner is new. To continue a somewhat repeated argument that I have with my dad who has been a fan since Jurgensen and is still fairly out on the team, my optimism is that for the first time in nearly my entire lifetime, it will be a different owner in charge of picking his front office. That HAS to count for something. If it doesn't, I think I'd be ready to quit everything but the most casual following of the NFL.

[FootballZombie]

I think that just like w/ Harris, the majority of us are willing to give positive vibes and expectations to a new staff, even sight-unseen.

Its a level of organizational hope we didn't really get to have under Snyder.

 

 

Personally, I'm more than willing to give a new FO and coaching staff excessive amounts of slack, wiggle room or what have you. They get more than a clean slate, w/ many of our faults being pinned to previous regimes.

[oraphus]

10 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I keep seeing people say this and no one explains why Williams or Maye are considered franchise level QBs. What do they do that makes them so good you can’t pass on them?

 

I am not saying they aren’t good. I want to make sure my take is transparent: they are both good QBs that could have a bright future. However, this years QB class has been overhyped for 2.5 years now. 

I don't get paid enough (or at all) to make that determination. Both QBs have put enough on tape to be considered upper level talent at the most important position in the NFL but i am not advocating for either one.

Are you guarantied to hit on a QB in the top 5? no.. see how quickly Tepper turned on his coach and GM when they obviously made the wrong QB pick. But that your best shot at finding a franchise QB and a franchise QB can turn your team around in the same season with good coaching even if the talent around him is nothing special. 

1. You hire a very good GM and HC

2. You let them rate current QB talent and draft talent.

3. If they determine that there is an incredibly talented QB in the top 5 and your pic is close... you try to trade up or make the QB pic. 

Ultimately if i am looking for a QB to lead my team he has to hit these checkboxes.

- mobile

- strong arm

- intelligent and quick decision maker

- Big _6'3-6'5

If he does not meet all the above checks, he will be at disadvantage in the NFL (no matter how accurate, quick, smart he is).. the odds will be stacked against him in todays NFL

 

And if you miss on the QB.. fine, you try again next year.. you have the rest of your draft class to hit on other players but if your team is at least semi average you wont be picking in the top 5 again for a while, and the cost of trading up from lets say 12 to 2 is enormously high 

 

 

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Super cool.  Evaluating QBs as some say is the toughest job for any scout in any sport.  If you think you got the formula down, I hope they'd consider you for GM.  

 

I've said before if any GM comes up with that niche of just nailing it at the QB spot -- they will make hundreds of millions as they should.  it's a gift that no one has nailed yet, not even our Bobby Beathard.

 

So it would be cool to see someone from Extremeskins of all places to break the mold and pioneer this. 😎 

Im great at it for youth flag football and once they’re already playing in the NFL. Projecting from college to the NFL is a little trickier but I think I’ve finally figured it out.…

 

Caleb Williams: We’ll see

Drake Maye: We’ll see

J.J. McCarthy: We’ll see

Jayden Daniels: We’ll see

 

I don’t want to clutter up the board, but if you want my evaluation of any of the other quarterbacks that I left out, just ask.

 

 

[oraphus]

25 minutes ago, Redskins 2021 said:

 Qb bust at a very very high rate. Howell probably proven enough that he could easily be a game manager with enough talent. It's going to cost draft capital to move up to get one of top two Qb. See what Howell does next year then move up for a qb. Next season is going to be bad again. A couple FA will not turn us around very quickly.

 

There are alot more teams that have one superbowl championship with non franchise Qb in the last 10 years.  He is not Brady or Mahomes but he could be as good as Foles, Flacco, Wilson, Staford and Eli Manning who have all won in last ten years.

umm... Wilson, Stafford and Eli are all franchise QBs. Foles and Flaco won on fully stacked teams and in the old NFL.. they would not have won in todays NFL. Can you win with a fully stacked team and an above avg QB today.. probably, but we are a lot farther from a fully stacked team, than from one Franchise QB

[Skinsinparadise]

9 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

I think that just like w/ Harris, the majority of us are willing to give positive vibes and expectations to a new staff, even sight-unseen.

Its a level of organizational hope we didn't really get to have under Snyder.

 

 

Personally, I'm more than willing to give a new FO and coaching staff excessive amounts of slack, wiggle room or what have you. They get more than a clean slate, w/ many of our faults being pinned to previous regimes.

 

Yeah me, too.

 

I think they got some interesting decisions ahead.  But unless they do something crazy, I'll have their back on any call.

 

A.  Ignore QB and run it back with Sam.  

B.  Take a QB.

C.  Go O line with the first pick in the draft

D.  Go Harrison Jr., or even Bowers with the first pick

E. Trade down.

 

I am not hardcore on any of those stances.  I could argue on behalf of any one of those points.  So whatever the new GM chooses, I'll get behind.  The only thing I think I'd have a hard time is with going with Turner or Verse or name that edge.  Not because i am against these players but I don't love the idea of running with 5 first round D lineman in the last 8 years or whatever in an offense driven league.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[The Consigliere]

54 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I am not all that high on either Williams or Maye, no.

 

Maye reminds me of a taller Howell.

 

Williams, to me, isn't as good as advertised. But I've never thought so. I think he could be good. Ditto for Maye. Ditto for Howell.

 

Circumstance will dictate that.

 

But Williams is the same size as Howell and people had a conniption about his size. So what's different about Williams?

 

He had a tremendous year last year... This year has been good, too. He'll very likely be a good pro. But great? I don't know.

 

Like I've said numerous times now, I'm not against going QB as long as the line is addressed.

 

A mediocre OL is quite the upgrade from what we have now, by the way.

 

I don't think I'm far off from you, I just like Williams better. I don't know Maye enough or Daniels for that matter, I expect and want the team to bring in depth at the very least via Free agency, maybe a starter, and I expect them to use basically 2 combined day 1 and day 2 picks (and/or possibly our 4th in addition to one other pick) on the OL. This will take 2 years, not one, and there's no guarantee they even hit either which is rather scary (recall those notorious back to back OL's in I think the '13 class at the top of the board, neither of whom hit (Fisher and Joeckel, and earlier there was another guy who went top 5 like 2 or 3 years earlier and also busted). None of that dictates anything for me, I just think when your OL is this god awful, it will take years to fix. We've got what, 2-3 usable pieces, total and no depth. 

 

 

 

 

[srtman04]

 

24 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Yep, of course.  It's likewise subjective that Sam is a franchise QB.  We are projecting.  That's player evaluation.  

 

It feels like just saying that CONSIDERING an alternative to Sam is oddly controversial here.  If they pick top 5 in a stacked draft at that spot, I don't see its even a little controversial to consider all options.  EVERY reporter who covers this team who talked about the subject believes the same.

 

If they look at Daniels or Penix or whomever and think "meh", then pass on them.  If the new GM thinks Howell has elite upside and is a safer bet than name that QB, then run it back with Howell.  If they love a QB prospect and think Howell's ceiling is limited, then take that QB.

 

Some people here come off confident that they already have the answer for these questions.  That's cool.  I don't.  All i am saying is I think this topic will be a real topic that will be on the table to consider this off season, that's all. 

 

Sam has the tools to do anything that these guys can do coming out of college,  and Sam has the actual NFL experience to build around.   We currently do NOT have a system in place for any new QB to come here and to be successful.   That's the most important element in the QB equation.   Until you have the right system in place,  you stay with what you have and see if it develops.  If it does, GREAT.   This is what successful franchises do.   We haven't been successful for the past 20+ years because no one that's good wants to stay here to develop the environment. And we've always had the wrong QB for the system, or the QB just didn't have the NFL talent period.   

 

Sam clearly has the NFL talent to succeed and he will make improvements to his decision making once the pieces around him are built.   I truly believe he'd be even better this year if our Oline was at least NFL serviceable.   Literally anyone behind this Oline will either fail or be injured/career ended.  That much we know for certain at this point.  

[KDawg]

26 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

for me its an extension of why I wanted Josh Harris before he became the owner, I loved what i read about him as to how deep he dives into the subject and at least tries to find the best of the best.

 

Bruce Allen was already a punchline in Tampa and was out of work.  And he wasn't even a true GM as to having any scouting background.  So yeah that felt like a Dan Snyder hire.  It doesn't feel at all like a Josh Harris but I'll wait and see.

 

I try even with Dan's hires to give everyone some initial chance and benefit of the doubt until they prove me wrong.  The dude i was out on fastest was Zorn.

 

 

Sure. A chance doesn't mean, "if they want it, I'll trust it!" though. It means being open to the possibility any of our preconceived notions may be wrong and they may be right and hoping that they made the best choice.

 

20 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

It's new because the owner is new. To continue a somewhat repeated argument that I have with my dad who has been a fan since Jurgensen and is still fairly out on the team, my optimism is that for the first time in nearly my entire lifetime, it will be a different owner in charge of picking his front office. That HAS to count for something. If it doesn't, I think I'd be ready to quit everything but the most casual following of the NFL.

 

There is a reason many of us are at the point we are. But... I don't know one way or the other on the new crew... because they aren't here yet and we haven't seen them do anything yet. 

 

20 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

I think that just like w/ Harris, the majority of us are willing to give positive vibes and expectations to a new staff, even sight-unseen.

Its a level of organizational hope we didn't really get to have under Snyder.

 

 

Personally, I'm more than willing to give a new FO and coaching staff excessive amounts of slack, wiggle room or what have you. They get more than a clean slate, w/ many of our faults being pinned to previous regimes.

 

I have no issue whatsoever with giving some slack and positive vibes. I am overall optimistic about our future. But I don't agree with everything good GMs do (they make mistakes, too). I don't see a reason why positivity and good vibes means we can't be critical of a bad decision... (and we don't know if the decision made will be good or not at this point, there are too many variables...) 

 

I am just semi "fighting back" against the notion that whatever the new GM/coach wants HAS to be trusted (and there are very few that literally mean that, I fully comprehend that... but there are definitely some that do). 

 

And again, I don't know what the right decision is. At all. But I'm pretty sure it involves making sure the OL is very well addressed.

 

18 minutes ago, oraphus said:

 

- mobile

- strong arm

- intelligent and quick decision maker

- Big _6'3-6'5

If he does not meet all the above checks, he will be at disadvantage in the NFL (no matter how accurate, quick, smart he is).. the odds will be stacked against him in todays NFL

 

 

 

 

 

Your checklist rules out Caleb Williams based on one criteria.

 

Maye

Daniels

Penix

Beck

McCarthy

Pratt

 

Meet the height requirement.

 

Quick decision maker you can eliminate Daniels, Beck, Maye

 

Mobile you can eliminate Pratt

 

That leaves you with McCarthy (who I am not a fan of) and Penix.

[The Consigliere]

46 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I keep seeing people say this and no one explains why Williams or Maye are considered franchise level QBs. What do they do that makes them so good you can’t pass on them?

 

I am not saying they aren’t good. I want to make sure my take is transparent: they are both good QBs that could have a bright future. However, this years QB class has been overhyped for 2.5 years now. 

I keep hearing the Mahomes in college comp for Williams, but I don't know who people see Maye as. Williams has been absolutely ridiculous in college, though there's no denying USC stunk this year. I think people are betting on his tools, and raw ability. If he has the first in last out thing down, mental make up, processing speed, I fully expect him to "hit". I'm not an authority on either of them though as I never expected us to be this close to slot 1.

40 minutes ago, KDawg said:

What if they hire Bruce Allen?

 

I mean that semi tongue in cheek and as a joke, but it’s also a serious thought. All of this support around here from the fanbase for “whoever they hire” without even knowing who they hire is new.

I don't support anything automatically. If they hire some hack retread dinosaur with eighties and nineties mentality like Ron I'm not gonna like it, and I'm not gonna eat that ---- sandwich either. They should be looking at teams with younger, more modern minds, with a respect for analytics and where the league is headed, rather than where its been, especially in the more distant past. We all knew, all of us, that Del Rio sucked. His failing with the D is not shocking in the least. Bienenemy going sideways is more surprising, but figuring out how much is him, and how much is the chicken ---- he was given to work with is open to debate. 

[NickyJ]

18 minutes ago, KDawg said:

There is a reason many of us are at the point we are. But... I don't know one way or the other on the new crew... because they aren't here yet and we haven't seen them do anything yet. 

I don't know either, but at this point, I'm willing to just trust that the new owner will pick a new staff who doesn't suck as much as the current one. I'm at the end of my rope, what else can I do? (Rhetorical question.) The team will do what it does whether I relax or don't, but at least it's a new owner who can point it in a new direction. I just want to stop and look hopefully at the budding flowers without concerning myself over what type of flowers they are.

Edited December 5, 2023 by NickyJ

[KDawg]

Just now, NickyJ said:

I don't know either, but at this point, I'm willing to just trust that the new owner will pick a new staff who doesn't suck as much as the current one. I'm at the end of my rope, what else can I do? (Rhetorical question.) The team will do what does whether I relax or don't. I just want to stop and look hopefully at the budding flowers without concerning myself over what type of flowers they are.

I get this standpoint. But I just can’t do this, personally. It’s great you can. I’m not sure how anyone can do this at this point… no one has been hired. It can literally be anyone. 

[PeterMP]

49 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Bruce Allen was already a punchline in Tampa and was out of work.  And he wasn't even a true GM as to having any scouting background.  So yeah that felt like a Dan Snyder hire.  It doesn't feel at all like a Josh Harris but I'll wait and see.

 

My recollection is somehow that Allen had become connected to Shanahan, and the Allen hire signaled that they would hire Shanahan.  That Shanahan had essentially approved of Allen being a GM with him as President.  And we wanted to make a move to smooth/ensure the hiring of Shanahan without dumping the coaching staff in the middle of the year.

 

I don't think a lot of people here were against it at time because most people were pro-hiring of Shanahan.  Why Shanahan connected it himself to Allen and agreed to come here is another question.

 

I'm sure there are comparable moves out there this offseason that many would support.

[NickyJ]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

I get this standpoint. But I just can’t do this, personally. It’s great you can. I’m not sure how anyone can do this at this point… no one has been hired. It can literally be anyone. 

I guess if I had to pick out a particular reason for why I trust him despite no hires, it's because he has previously owned 2 teams in completely different sports, both of whom are experiencing at least some amount of success. I doubt his sports knowledge extends to actually managing the players and coaches of those teams, so I think that success comes from being able to pick the right managers. If he can do it in 2 sports, I'm willing to trust he can do it in 3.

[UK Skins]

I've slightly lost track but hope this is the right thread to question EB's play calling. So we've been told endlessly that EB uses Andy Reid's system of throwing the ball incessantly and using short passes instead of runs. So I watched the Kansas/Green Bay game last night and the commentators highlighted several times how both Kansas and Green Bay use a heavy power running game to set up the play action.  And to my uninitiated eye that's exactly what was happening in that game. So has Reid suddenly changed his MO this season, or the excuses for EB were all BS? Or another explanation? Help me out please.

 

Incidentally what a fantastic game.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, srtman04 said:

 

 

Sam has the tools to do anything that these guys can do coming out of college,  and Sam has the actual NFL experience to build around. 

 

So the same tools as Caleb, Drake and Daniels plus with the bonus of NFL experience, if I am following you.

 

1 hour ago, srtman04 said:

 

We currently do NOT have a system in place for any new QB to come here and to be successful.   That's the most important element in the QB equation.   Until you have the right system in place,  you stay with what you have and see if it develops.  If it does, GREAT.   This is what successful franchises do.   We haven't been successful for the past 20+ years because no one that's good wants to stay here to develop the environment. And we've always had the wrong QB for the system, or the QB just didn't have the NFL talent period.   

 

 

There are many reasons why we've hadn't been successful.  We've had some good offensive systems in that mix of time.  Arguably not today.  But I don't see how the point is relevant as to deciding about Sam versus name that college QB.  If they hire a bad HC it will effect any QB we have.  I am not expecting that to happen though.

 

1 hour ago, srtman04 said:

 

Sam clearly has the NFL talent to succeed and he will make improvements to his decision making once the pieces around him are built.   I truly believe he'd be even better this year if our Oline was at least NFL serviceable.   Literally anyone behind this Oline will either fail or be injured/career ended.  That much we know for certain at this point.  

 

I agree he has the tools to be successful. I've posted as much maybe more pro Sam propaganda on this thread than anyone.  The question to me isn't about whether Sam can play or whether there are guarantees in the draft or people don't care about the O line or some other strawmen points being brought up from time to time on this thread.

 

The question to me is does Sam look to have elite upside?  And if not does another QB in this draft who they can take, look to have that elite upside?

 

I am not saying I got the answer.  i am just debating those here who think they already have the answer or think its not worth thinking about.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[NoCalMike]

Purdy's strengths fit the scheme of a WCO, but overall the WCO is a QB friendly system if the QB is able to process reads quickly.  The main difference is Purdy is rewarded for making the quick 3-7 yard passes because the O-line and WRs can block for screens and other short passes where as when Sam throws a quick pass the blocks are blown up so quick that it turns into a 3 yard loss.   I haven't seen any film of this offense this season working like a cohesive unit the way I saw the 49ers go to work against Philly.   

[YouLikeThat]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

The question to me is does Sam look to have elite upside?  And if not does another QB in this draft who they can take, look to have that elite upside?

 

I am not saying I got the answer.  i am just debating those here who think they already have the answer or think its not worth thinking about.

He does NOT have elite upside. He may have the ability of a player you can win with IF you have a top 3-5 OL 1 or 2 of the top 5 receivers in the league 1 of the top 5 running backs of the league and that may not be enough. If i had to call it now his ceiling is Kirk. All stats no big wins with elite offensive talent that you all want to give him lol

[srtman04]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

The question to me is does Sam look to have elite upside?  And if not does another QB in this draft who they can take, look to have that elite upside?

 

 

 

I think this clip clearly answer's that question.   It's a resounding YES.  On this play alone,  the O-line was actually doing a good job blocking & protecting and Sam threw a DIME.   

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

Sure. A chance doesn't mean, "if they want it, I'll trust it!" though. It means being open to the possibility any of our preconceived notions may be wrong and they may be right and hoping that they made the best choice.

 

 

I spent too much time on Josh Harris where I am confident he's not going with an old school retread or some odd left field choice at GM -- it wouldn't fit his style with his other ownership of teams and it wouldn't fit what the beat guys get a sense of talking to whomever they know close to him.

 

So I am expecting it's going to be someone among the young assistant hot names like Peters, Cunningham, etc.  So if it goes on that path I'll trust it.  If Harris goes against form and the leaks about what he's looking for ends up 100% incorrect and he decides to go with an old retread who is a punchline at their last job ala when Dan hired Bruce, i'll trash it.  But for now I don't have any fear of it.

 

I think there has been an over focus on our first round pick or bust as to much of the discussions. It's puts a lot of pressure on just that decision alone albiet there have so many picks and cap space.  But sticking to that plot line anyway.  The other reason why it would be hard to dissuade me is i am really open to the 5 most obvious scenarios with that pick. 

 

And as you know i like to spend time watching and really thinking about it as you do.  Like you i've watched some of these QBs.  I've watched Fashanu, Alt, Harrison, Bowers.  I've watched plenty of Howell not just in the pros but also college.  I am slowly digesting Daniels.  So its not like I am not putting in the time. 

 

But I don't have this definitive view that some have of what we should do.  My mind right now wanders where I can defend any of these lines of logic.  My only argument is with those (not you) who seem to be certain that they know exactly what they must to do.  I am not certain.  To me, all these scenarios have some logic and meat to them.   Since I can argue for any of these scenarios for different reasons.  it would be tough for a GM to piss me off.  The other part of it is there is a Robin to the Batman aspect of the decision.  What they do in round 1 clearly will be complemented by other decisions.  

 

A.  Run it with Howell -- why?  He's shown enough that he's a good QB.  you can win faster that way.  Build the roster around him.  Quickest way to success.

 

B. Draft lets say Daniels -- is he the next Lamar Jackson?  Shades of 2012 RG3 but the good version of RG3.  Great upside?  

 

C. Take Marvin Harrison Jr, if they can.  Elite prospect.  Best college Wr prospect i ever watched. Potential superstar.  Tall too and we need a tall WR and yes he will help the QB.

 

D.  Take Fashanu or Alt -- high floor LTs in my opinion, shore up a need spot and then go to town with more O lineman in the 2nd.  Fix this unit in one fell swoop.

 

E.   Trade down -- take Bowers (potential elite TE) or a RT like Fauga, Mims, etc, add picks and have the ability to build more of your roster up.

 

Some are pissy (not you) that I have B in the mix of the 5 scenarios.  But to me i can argue equally for all 5 scenarios.  So that's why a GM can't really piss me off at least not with the first round pick.  Clearly there are some here who would be pissed off based on some of those scenarios.  That's cool.  But that's not me.  i am open to all of those scenarios.  There is no way to piss me off.    The only way they could set me off as I said is taking an edge. 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

21 minutes ago, YouLikeThat said:

He does NOT have elite upside. He may have the ability of a player you can win with IF you have a top 3-5 OL 1 or 2 of the top 5 receivers in the league 1 of the top 5 running backs of the league and that may not be enough. If i had to call it now his ceiling is Kirk. All stats no big wins with elite offensive talent that you all want to give him lol

 

I am closer to this take.

 

19 minutes ago, srtman04 said:

 

I think this clip clearly answer's that question.   It's a resounding YES.  On this play alone,  the O-line was actually doing a good job blocking & protecting and Sam threw a DIME.   

 

 

 

Then I am to this take.

 

But I am somewhere in between.  My gut is Howell isn't elite.   I totally get the 2nd tier comparisons.  I do think he meets those 2nd tier expectations.  i am very optimisitc about that.

 

Still i think its really hard to nail it down.   But its not my job to nail this down.  That's for the GM clearly, and I trust they will dissect this question.

 

Maybe the guys who cover this team end up wrong but I suspect they will end up right and the next GM will consider ALL possibilities including QB.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[srtman04]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I am closer to this take.

 

 

Then I am to this take.

 

But I am somewhere in between.  My gut is Howell isn't elite.   I totally get the 2nd tier comparisons.  I do think he meets those 2nd tier expectations.  i am very optimisitc about that.

 

Still i think its really hard to nail it down.   But its not my job to nail this down.  That's for the GM clearly, and I trust they will dissect this question.

 

Maybe the guys who cover this team end up wrong but I suspect they will end up right and the next GM will consider ALL possibilities including QB.

 

I'm curious if you thought Peyton Manning was elite during his rookie season?   Based on your logic then,  you'd given up on him and traded him to another team LOL.