The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[FootballZombie]

5 minutes ago, KDawg said:

So to those saying we should have chased some of these vets... Why do we think we didn't?

 

Could be any number of reasons, hard to narrow it down.

 

- They personally didn't like any of the available options at their prices, or at all

- They did not want to spend big money on the face of the franchise w/o the consent of a new owner

- Finances in general under Snyder

- Maybe they did touch base behind the scenes and were told "hard no"

- Afraid of some guys medicals

 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, FootballZombie said:

 

Could be any number of reasons, hard to narrow it down.

 

- They personally didn't like any of the available options at their prices, or at all

- They did not want to spend big money on the face of the franchise w/o the consent of a new owner

- Finances in general under Snyder

- Maybe they did touch base behind the scenes and were told "hard no"

- Afraid of some guys medicals

 

No, what I mean is: What makes us certain the FO didn't kick the tires on any of these guys? They very well may have and we didn't get a favorable outcome. 

[FootballZombie]

Just now, KDawg said:

No, what I mean is: What makes us certain the FO didn't kick the tires on any of these guys? They very well may have and we didn't get a favorable outcome. 

 

They very well could have, but we don't know.

 

After getting the royal paddling and being the butt of every joke for their QB search the preceding offseason, they would be heavily motivated not to say squat this year about it to boot.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[skinny21]

It’s fair to guess a vet like Carr or Jimmy G wouldn’t want to come here due to Snyder, the uncertainty of ownership change and other negatives.  

 

Also fair to point out this team has - been a .500ish team with poor qb play, a HC who is pretty well respected around the league, a good group of receivers, a defense that finished top 5, and brought in Mahomes’ OC and Reid’s offense.

 

I can understand the idea of freezing assets prior to a sale, but I also have trouble believing that trading away draft picks for a qb would have turned off owners or even caused them to lower their bid substantially.

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, FootballZombie said:

 

They very well could have, but we don't know.

 

After getting the royal paddling and being the butt of every joke for their QB search the preceding offseason, they would be heavily motivated not to say squat this year about it to boot.

This is completely my point. They may have kicked tires and came up empty. 

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, Tress Is The Way said:

Howell has a lot of similarities to another QB that was drafted here. They were both 3 year starters at their respective colleges, both played in FBS (ACC vs Big Ten) and both were considered higher picks but both dropped considerably (4th round and 5th round). Also very similar in their build. Arguably the man I'm talking about is the only QB in the last 20 years that has put up over 4k yards for this franchise. If Howell can replicate and not be a choke artist in big time games, I'd be happy with that.

So you’re saying ‘you like that’?

[Conn]

3 hours ago, MrJL said:

 

there's only one choice Ron could have made differently and that was Wentz.  The others he was pretty much stuck with

 

Hell, the game between us and the Giants in '19, before Ron came here, was called the Chase Young Bowl.  Tua or Herbert would have been starting the year with an unforgivable reach and in '21 he didn't plan to start Heinicke for the entire season

 

I used to think this but it’s bull****. That’s what you pay the evaluators for. People talk about how ironclad his “final say” duties are in his contract now, can’t have it both ways—if he had conviction about the underwhelming Snyder incumbent Haskins vs. Tua/Herbert he would have followed through and had a shot at a real franchise QB. He had a choice.
 

It’s entirely understandable that he didn’t make that move. It was certainly public and media consensus at the time. That’s not what you get paid for when you’re the big man though. Anyone can follow consensus. You are paid as an evaluator to make the hard calls if you want to win a SB (or to surround yourself with those who can evaluate and help you win a SB). His fate was in his own hands as early as draft #1. His decisions at QB are generally understandable and defensible, yes. Yet being unable to overcome that conservatism is what may sink him. 

[FootballZombie]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

This is completely my point. They may have kicked tires and came up empty. 

 

I wouldn't argue that at all. Its probably true to some extent.

And if I were in their position, I wouldn't say squat either, lest I be ribbed for calling every team plus KC about Mahomes again.

 

But taking the silence stance and not making your moves known provides no protection for ridicule. Can't hide behind a transparent barrier.

[KDawg]

6 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

I wouldn't argue that at all. Its probably true to some extent.

And if I were in their position, I wouldn't say squat either, lest I be ribbed for calling every team plus KC about Mahomes again.

 

But taking the silence stance and not making your moves known provides no protection for ridicule. Can't hide behind a transparent barrier.

I wouldn’t get in the habit of advertising our attempted moves, either. Alienating your current players to save face is bad business.

Edited August 14, 2023 by KDawg

[Command The 414]

15 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

If Cole Turner stays relatively healthy the entire season he easily will be another weapon in this offensive arsenal… hoping for a huge season from him and/or the TE position 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

26 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

The fact that so many of you think the decision to go with some 5th round second year QB with one start as his long term starter doesn't take vision and balls, that it is some kind of no-brainer choice for which Ron and company deserve no credit, tells me how out of touch this board has grown.  If Sam Howell actually works out, it would be a stunning feather in the cap for this regime.  They would be celebrated by the football world for making that call.  And if that happens, am I still going to be reading these awful "Ron deserves ZERO credit for Sam Howell" takes in two or three years?

 

Yeah, I noticed the strong "Ron had no choice but to draft him/Ron had no choice but to start him" vibes in some of these posts lol...

 

Not to mention, developing a young QB into a legit starter is in NO WAY a slam dunk for any team or any QB not named Peyton Manning. If Howell turns into a legit starter Ron & company will deserve credit there as well. Of course he won't get it lol, but he'll deserve it. Instead it will be about how Howell would have succeeded regardless of Ron's incompetence or that it was really EB who developed Howell and deserves the credit. When you point out Rivera was the one who hired EB, it'll then be that EB had no choice or legit offers, so we were his only option, Ron doesn't deserve etc, etc, blah blah.

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

Yeah, I noticed the strong "Ron had no choice but to draft him/Ron had no choice but to start him" vibes in some of these posts lol...

 

Not to mention, developing a young QB into a legit starter is in NO WAY a slam dunk for any team or any QB not named Peyton Manning. If Howell turns into a legit starter Ron & company will deserve credit there as well. Of course he won't get it lol, but he'll deserve it. Instead it will be about how Howell would have succeeded regardless of Ron's incompetence or that it was really EB who developed Howell and deserves the credit. When you point out Rivera was the one who hired EB, it'll then be that EB had no choice or legit offers, so we were his only option, Ron doesn't deserve etc, etc, blah blah.

Well, Howell looked good last year, too. So EB should get some but not all of the credit.

 

Ultimately, Rivera drafted him. So… that is what it was and is and should be credited that way.

[mistertim]

25 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

I can understand the idea of freezing assets prior to a sale, but I also have trouble believing that trading away draft picks for a qb would have turned off owners or even caused them to lower their bid substantially.

 

I don't think it would have anything to do with turning off potential owners. I think it would have to do with Dan being Dan. I'd be very surprised if Dan had anything set up to where his FO could make any major trade moves without his explicit permission and buy in.

 

And knowing what a petulant and narcissistic child Dan is, I think there's pretty much zero chance that he would have agreed to any major transactions like that.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

When did Rivera announce Howell as the presumptive starter for training camp? Wasn't that in early February? If so, that would have been at least a month before free agency started and almost 3 months before the draft.

 

I personally felt like Ron was scared of being burned for a 3rd year in a row by signing a vet QB who takes a chunk out of their cap space for mediocre (and minimal) play, especially if they already had it in their sites to use their cap space to extend Payne--which I find it next to impossible to believe they didn't already have that financial plan in place for how to use the cap space regardless of who was owner or if the sale was approved. That's just normal front office operations across the league...and going with a young QB who they liked before the draft, grew to like even more during the season, and really liked in his one regular season start, gives a ****load of flexibility to their cap and ability to keep key players--not just this year but in every year of Howell's rookie contract.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Califan007 The Constipated

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

I never said it didn’t take some dedication to Howell and some risk.

 

it did.

 

But so did every other move.

 

I actually think he made the right move while simultaneously making the easiest move.

 

That's big time right IMO.

 

A.  Does Ron deserve credit for Howell if Howell plays well?  You bet he does.   Hurney in particular.

 

B.  Is going with Howell the safer route for Rivera considering context.  I think heck yeah.

 

As far as taking Howell in the first place while I give Rivera credit, he clearly didn't have a ton of convinction at that time for taking him.  They studied that draft class and decided to go with a veteran instead.  As Rivera said he studied Wentz himself and made the move.  They were supposedly toying with trading for Jimmy G until the injury became apparent  They were willing to give the moon for Wilson.   They took Howell when he dropped much further than they expected in the draft.  Otherwise they weren't going to do it.  So while Rivera deserves credit, there was some luck in the mix.  But that's OK.

 

The point isn't Howell is a safe bet.  So anyone that argues it in a vaccum is running with a strawman argument IMO. Of course going wiith a young QB isn't safe in a vaccuum.

 

But lets consider context here.  Ron traded a draft pick for Kyle Allen.  He give up a big haul for Carson Wentz and it consumed a big chunk of their salary cap.  He signed Fitz and gave him the starting job.   

 

Can he really go for another veteran and sell that easily.  Let's go to that same well and see what happens?  Wentz was a rehab project and cost almost 30 million on the cap.   The best options were Carr off a down year and Jimmy G who can't stay heallthy.

 

Most agree Carr was the best veteran option.  Giving Carr a 150 million contract averaging 37.5 million a year coming off of perhaps his worst season in his career where he was pedestrain at best was the safer choice?  Let alone you'd like lose Payne and another player because of the cap ramfications?

 

Going with Howell, signing arguably the best backup on the market and keeping Payne was clearly the safer bet IMO.     And that's before launching into the politics of it which doubles down on the same point.  As some say who cover this team for Ron to sell to new ownership that he's the future, he needs to find a young QB and say look what i did. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[skinny21]

16 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I don't think it would have anything to do with turning off potential owners. I think it would have to do with Dan being Dan. I'd be very surprised if Dan had anything set up to where his FO could make any major trade moves without his explicit permission and buy in.

 

And knowing what a petulant and narcissistic child Dan is, I think there's pretty much zero chance that he would have agreed to any major transactions like that.

Gotcha, and I agree that Dan would have to sign off on a major move.  Perhaps you’re right about Snyder not agreeing to a major transaction (Dan’s certainly a piece of work), though of course that’s speculative.  Even more so considering Snyder was probably checked out by that point and the question of roster ownership in Ron’s contract.  Who knows.

 

 

Not necessarily directed at you - 

 

To me, the “Ron had no other options but Howell” is an unknown.  They may have looked into the trade/vet route, may have considered Hooker/Levis, etc… we don’t know.  I’m also not sure I buy into the “clear upgrade” side of things… too many unknowns.  Some options might have been seen as upgrades but not worked out (like trading for Lance, drafting a 1st rounder), and vice versa.

 

Also worth noting that they surely weren’t sold on Howell (in March), given the surrounding factors, so I don’t see rolling with him as the de facto starter as a no brainer (ie. Ron was forced into the decision and therefore deserves zero credit for doing so).  Doesn’t make him some sort of mastermind either of course.  I think the truth is somewhere in the middle - he was willing to take a risk, but wanted a vet insurance policy.  And perhaps they looked at some other options initially before landing on that decision.  We’ll probably never know.

 

 

[profusion]

If starting caliber veteran QBs are changing teams, it's usually for a good reason. I think Ron made the best of a bad situation in sticking with Howell and signing Brissett. 

 

In any event, whoever starts at QB is going to be running for their life a lot, so I couldn't see someone like Carr or Jimmy G. lasting past Week 5.

[MrJL]

4 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

I still question Howell having a 2nd round grade in the year he was drafted.  RR made it clear they were drafting a developmental QB, it was a confirmed need.  So if he had a 2nd round grade and filled a need why not take him in the 2nd, 3rd (where they had 2 picks) or 4th round if they really had a 2nd round grade on him?  

 

I don't mean to dampen the mood but I think those who are thinking he can be a top 10 QB are reaching.  That's all I'll say about that as I don't want to kill your enthusiasm.  

Because they had other players they wanted in those rounds who had appropriate grades but there always comes a point where you go "****, now I gotta"

[Skinsinparadise]

54 minutes ago, profusion said:

If starting caliber veteran QBs are changing teams, it's usually for a good reason. I think Ron made the best of a bad situation in sticking with Howell and signing Brissett. 

 

In any event, whoever starts at QB is going to be running for their life a lot, so I couldn't see someone like Carr or Jimmy G. lasting past Week 5.

 

Agree.

 

I liked the idea of Carr the previous off season but I was against it this time.

 

The difference is if you have a young QB give the dude a chance.  Also, Carr wasn't worth IMO the risk for nearly 38 million a year he got after a pedestrian, down season.    Let alone also cost you Payne and likely another player or two.   It wouldn't quite be Wentz part 2 but it would have felt risky to take on a QB again that was discarded from his previous team, coming off probably his worst season since his rookie year.

 

The 49ers finally I gather had enough with Jimmy G and his injuries.  With the history of this team and injuries at that Qb, do we really want to take on arguably the most injury prone QB in the league?

 

Ron IMO absolutely did the safest thing he could have done.  I could see the argument a little if he didn't sign Brissett.  But Brissett I believe was the most expensive QB backup signing in FA this off season.  So Ron hedged his bets if Howell doesn't put it together.

 

If we like the Saints gave Carr an 150 million dollar contract, averaging 37.5 million a year and he's pedestrain at best like last season -- can you imagine the outcry?  With that contract you'd be stuck with it for at least 3 years.    With Wentz at least there was an escape because his guaranteed money ran out after season 1.

 

With Howell, you can say be patient through the ups and downs.  Fans (and I doubt ownership) would be patient with 30 something QBs on fat contracts. 

 

They staggered Carr's contract but its still 100 million guaranteed.  I was OK with it the previous off season with no young Qb in the fold and with Carr coming off of a good season.   But Carr coming off a down season and Howell in the fold and there was a desire to keep Payne -- it didn't make sense to me.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[MartinC]

1 hour ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

Yeah, I noticed the strong "Ron had no choice but to draft him/Ron had no choice but to start him" vibes in some of these posts lol...

 

Not to mention, developing a young QB into a legit starter is in NO WAY a slam dunk for any team or any QB not named Peyton Manning. If Howell turns into a legit starter Ron & company will deserve credit there as well. Of course he won't get it lol, but he'll deserve it. Instead it will be about how Howell would have succeeded regardless of Ron's incompetence or that it was really EB who developed Howell and deserves the credit. When you point out Rivera was the one who hired EB, it'll then be that EB had no choice or legit offers, so we were his only option, Ron doesn't deserve etc, etc, blah blah.

It wasn’t a slam dunk for Peyton Manning. He holds the rookie record for number of interceptions as a rookie with 28 and went 3-13. He did also have 26 TDs to go along with those picks - but if Sam goes 3-13 and has 20+ picks he’s probably not getting a second year as a starter even if its not actually his fault.

[NickyJ]

I'm a bit lost. When did the NFL reclassify Jacoby Brissett as a rookie?

 

We were a dumpster fire team during free agency. No prime talent was or probably even is going to come here until they know who will be the head coach next season. Brissett was about as good as we can get. Not great, but still clearly an upgrade over what we had in the past.

 

But lets say the team did open the coffers to fund a superstar QB who was willing to overlook the garbage in the dump. Great. Does the owner let him influence who the next FO and head coach are? Does the new coach get handed the keys to the car but tell him he's dead meat if he scratches the paint on his expensive QB?

Edited August 14, 2023 by NickyJ

[Skinsinparadise]

7 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

I'm a bit lost. When did the NFL reclassify Jacoby Brissett as a rookie?

 

We were a dumpster fire team during free agency. No prime talent was or probably even is going to come here until they know who will be the head coach next season. Brissett was about as good as we can get. Not great, but still clearly an upgrade over what we had in the past.

 

But lets say we did back open the coffers to fund a superstar QB who was willing to overlook the garbage in the dump. Great. Does the owner let him influence who the next FO and head coach are? Does the new coach get handed the keys to the car but tell him he's dead meat if he scratches the paint on his expensive QB?

 

Yeah I didn't even want to delve into that Carr made a big deal (via his brother) that he wants to go to a good destination with stable ownership and coaching staff.  That clearly wasn't the case at that time with the ownership in flux and Ron is clearly on the hot seat.

 

I like Carr more than some do.  So i am not down on him as a choice.  And I liked the idea in the 2022 off season.  But it made little sense this time so I didn't push it this off season for reasons I posted about.  But to your point, even if they were interested in Carr, I doubt he'd come here. 

 

Outside of Carr, what were the options?  An injury prone Jimmy G?  Like every off season the veteran market was limited.  We still arguably landed the third best veteran on the market. 

 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Darrell Green Fan]

39 minutes ago, MrJL said:

Because they had other players they wanted in those rounds who had appropriate grades but there always comes a point where you go "****, now I gotta"

 

So you think they passed on a potential starting QB who carried a 2nd round grade in rounds 3 and 4 because they felt BSJ, Dayami Brown and John Bates carried more value and they could not pass them up?  

[NickyJ]

9 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

So you think they passed on a potential starting QB who carried a 2nd round grade in rounds 3 and 4 because they felt BSJ, Dayami Brown and John Bates carried more value and they could not pass them up?  

Keep in mind that the plan after free agency was to coddle Wentz and make him feel loved and appreciated and stuff. He wouldn't have felt much love and appreciation surrounded on both sides by a fan favorite and a 2nd round pick. The success of QBs picked outside the first round isn't very good iirc, but you don't invest a 2nd round pick in anyone if your expectation for them is to be a career backup.

 

Wentz's situation tied their hands. I'm fine that they swung and missed on him, but they missed very, very badly. And part of missing badly was that it precluded taking anyone that Wentz might have felt threatened by.

Edited August 14, 2023 by NickyJ