The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Conn]

1 minute ago, MrJL said:

Haskins was only in the league three years before his death

And? No offense to his family but if you want to talk about it in a football sense, those are the aspects that he was working on and failing to improve. It’s not easy for young QBs to improve even the things that CAN be improved, like footwork, was the point. 

[zCommander]

16 minutes ago, MrJL said:

Haskins was only in the league three years

 

So how long should a QB take to get their footwork right/improved then? 5 years? 10 years?

[FootballZombie]

2 minutes ago, zCommander said:

So how long should a QB take to get their footwork right/improved then? 5 years? 10 years?

 

Forever.

Goal w/ no horizon

 

I seem to remember Brady sayin' he worked on his footwook nearly every off season. Its that important.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

3 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Ron didn't even want to play him last year, but Heinicke refused to go in and forced his hand. This offseason, nobody would come in as a clear starter.

This is a tired and speculative take. Nobody knows if this is true. 
 

Ron could’ve been wanted to sit Howell because he didn’t think it was fair to him to start the last game of the season against a vaunted pass rush. 
 

Neither scenario means that Ron didn’t plan to give Sam a chance in 2024 to win the job.

 

It’s just another dig at Ron.

Edited July 13, 2023 by AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy

[Skinsinparadise]

The narrative on Howell in that last game seems to be there was some desire for Heinicke to start that game and then Howell would come in after a quarter.  But Heinicke changed that dynamic.

 

I am not high on Rivera in the context of liking him with this new ownership -- lack of urgency, lack of pizzazz, burt mostly because of the tweet below as to his work on the O line.

 

But as for QB, while Ron swung and missed and was fleeced in the Wentz deal -- I actually liked his general aggressivenss at that spot even though he missed so far on every swing, I wish he had that aggressive vibe at other spots. 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[oraphus]

Ive been pretty vocal in my dislike of Ron as a HC/GM. Great guy, good person but a crappy HC and I see zero value in keeping him around for any other role with the team. Call me a hater if you want... but these are all reasons that would have caused any HC to be fired if we had a half decent owner with half a brain and less of his own duchery.

1. Non winning record

2. Inability to land a half decent QB in 4 years and getting fleeced in the trades for bad QBs

   a. Kyle Allen for a 5th.. when nobody wanted him

   b. Wentz .. we all know that one

3. Underperforming D - Inability to get the most out of a D with so much 1st rd talent and good players until 2nd half of last season from a D minded HC is unfathomable. Yes, i hold him responsible for poor hires. 

4. Poor drafting as a whole - especially in the upper rounds.

5. Poor hiring - Turner > giving him an extension and then firing him 

6. General baffoonery when he opens his mouth

 

I appreciate that he had to deal with a **** owner and "team culture" is better... whatever that means, but in the end the results speak for themselves. 

Edited July 13, 2023 by oraphus

[wit33]

5 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Ron didn't even want to play him last year, but Heinicke refused to go in and forced his hand. This offseason, nobody would come in as a clear starter.

 

Ol man riverboat hopped in the life boat and drifted out to sea and hired his buddy to stay on to be captain.

You were calling for the dude to start game 1 last season lol. 
 

In a do or die season Ron is starting a 5th round QB that hasn’t proven anything.
 

Ron has moved all chips in and is looking to RIVER a royal flush. 

 

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Yeah I'd add Ron just riding with the roster he has -- that's been his ammo his whole tenure.  Granted aside from QB where he's made some bad moves but I'll give him that he's made some moves.

 

It’s a good roster. 
 

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

i like Howell and am intrigued.  But Ron basically doing nothing much aside from riding the status quo fits his tenure, its just now bleeding into QB like it does for just about every other spot.

 

We really really need a LB the previous off season.  The answer is to do nothing aside from bringing back Bostic because heck Bostic knows our system.  And on 2nd thought they decided that Holcomb is really good.  Some rumbilings they'd make a major addtion at LB this year -- the answer is on 2nd thought we really liked how K. Hudson played in that last game.

 

The defense was a top 10 unit. 
 

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

O line is a code red spot according to Rivera and it derailed that season.  Weeks ago, he was asked about that spot and his response "they just need to stay healthy".  And made minor changes to upgrade the spot.

 

Not saying you won’t be proven right, but it appeared he wanted to get younger, more athletic, and add a couple developmental guys. We’ll see. 
 

A lot of changes were made to the Oline (code red). 
 

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Ron riding with the status quo is the opposite of Riverboat Run.  He's a lets not rock the boat and see what we have in hand kind of guy -- which makes him as conservative as it gets.

 

The probabilities are in your favor Washington wins 6-8 games and Ron is fired. This is one of the best all around rosters Washington has had in last 25 years. Can EB get competent play out of Howell and his legs prove to be special? If so, annive window opens up for Washington. 
 

I know you like the roster overall as well. 

[Skinsinparadise]

32 minutes ago, wit33 said:

You were calling for the dude to start game 1 last season lol. 
 

In a do or die season Ron is starting a 5th round QB that hasn’t proven anything.
 

Ron has moved all chips in and is looking to RIVER a royal flush. 

 

 

 

I was calling for who in game 1?  I genuinely don't recall me calling for anyone in game 1.  do you mean Howell?  It definitely wasn't Heinicke for me.

 

32 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

Ron has moved all chips in and is looking to RIVER a royal flush. 

 

 

I got mixed feelings about this point.  On one hand, I like rolling the dice on Howell.  On the other hand, it doesn't feel like Ron is rolling the dice on anything.  He's failed with his trades and FA signings at QB.  As our old buddy Jay suggested in a recent podcast, Ron has to place his bets on Howell now to likely save his job -- you can't really roll with another veteran who fails or is meh.   But a young QB might buy you some time.

 

To convince the next ownership that this time its different -- you got to say hey i got the young QB.  It was a conservative move and arguably the only move Ron could make.  So i don't think it shows much balls.  Showing balls would be rolling with Jimmy G, spending some money and saying hey trust me on this new reiteration of a veteran.   Playing a different card versus the same cards that failed him IMO is smart politics from Ron and the safer bet.

 

With Howell, even if they don't win he can make the case of look at that progress.  You bring in some veteran, then you got to win for sure.  And if he gets canned he can still say i helped find the young QB.

 

32 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

 

The defense was a top 10 unit. 

 

 

I had no idea.  I presume that alone nullifies the idea that Ron says something at the start of the off season and then tends to do something else and the solution is in house for him ala bringing Jon Bostic back.  

 

32 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

 

Not saying you won’t be proven right, but it appeared he wanted to get younger, more athletic, and add a couple developmental guys. We’ll see. 
 

A lot of changes were made to the Oline (code red). 
 

 

The probabilities are in your favor Washington wins 6-8 games and Ron is fired. This is one of the best all around rosters Washington has had in last 25 years. Can EB get competent play out of Howell and his legs prove to be special? If so, annive window opens up for Washington. 
 

I know you like the roster overall as well. 

 

Their big changes to the O line are bringing in Gates and Wylie.  Neither dude has much pedigree.  Neither dude even made PFF's top 100 FA list.

 

I was late to reallizing this because while I noticed he didn't complete these rosters in the first three years -- it felt like it was all building to this year when he would indeed finish it.

 

But when I saw him in my mind do the exact same thing as the other years, he lost me.   It comes off to me that its not about Ron building up to anything but this is just how he rolls. 

 

He upgraded the defensive line and weakened the offensive line.   The net result is a so so team.  That sums up his tenure for me.  

 

I along with @Koolblue13 might have been the most optimistic on the board as to the roster heading into 2023.  But we both became loud critics for the same reason -- we are both blown away that he didn't finish the roster and did another version of wait until next year, we aren't ready yet, version of this roster.

 

you think he pulled it off.  Cool.  I don't even remotely think he did.  I give the off season a D.  

 

I think Ron is unimaginative as for setting up the roster.  It's basically comes off like he gives Tim Gribble a shopping list for the draft and then lives and dies with that product.  I don't think there is much of an overarching vision aside from lets keeping drafting to our needs, hope that Gribble continues to do a good job with that, and someday organically it comes together. 

 

As far as the roster goes, I don't love the roster.  I like aspects of the roster.   But I am not a fan of running a team with a crap O line.  As a scout once said its tough to be a good team with a bad O line.  So Ron for my taste picked the wrong spot to have a weakness.  If I felt like you do about the O line not being that big of a deal as to loading it up, then I'd have no issue with his work.  

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

Agree on the O line but that's a big if

 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[RandyHolt]

4 hours ago, oraphus said:

Ive been pretty vocal in my dislike of Ron as a HC/GM. Great guy, good person but a crappy HC and I see zero value in keeping him around for any other role with the team. Call me a hater if you want... but these are all reasons that would have caused any HC to be fired if we had a half decent owner with half a brain and less of his own duchery.

1. Non winning record

2. Inability to land a half decent QB in 4 years and getting fleeced in the trades for bad QBs

   a. Kyle Allen for a 5th.. when nobody wanted him

   b. Wentz .. we all know that one

3. Underperforming D - Inability to get the most out of a D with so much 1st rd talent and good players until 2nd half of last season from a D minded HC is unfathomable. Yes, i hold him responsible for poor hires. 

4. Poor drafting as a whole - especially in the upper rounds.

5. Poor hiring - Turner > giving him an extension and then firing him 

6. General baffoonery when he opens his mouth

 

I appreciate that he had to deal with a **** owner and "team culture" is better... whatever that means, but in the end the results speak for themselves. 

 

7. Having to be told by reporters that we had been eliminated from playoff contention.

 

Sure he has been dealt a tough hand but he is failing at basics.  Throwing darts at has been QBs overdrafting DL ignoring OL... the 'we were eliminated?' gaffe last year was the icing on the cake. Early on, throwing in the towel early in winnable games has not been forgotten but this fan. I wonder how hard he pushed back at Dan for wanting/forcing Haskins.

 

It's up to Howell to save the franchise.  EB can only craft up avoiding him getting pummeled by the NFC daunting fronts for so long. He'll have to use his legs with our projected lame duck OL. A big unknown is how much Howell will be allowed to run be it designed runs roll outs or scrambles.

Edited July 13, 2023 by RandyHolt

[zCommander]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I was calling for who in game 1?  I genuinely don't recall me calling for anyone in game 1.  do you mean Howell?  It definitely wasn't Heinicke for me.

 

He was saying that to koolblue13 and not you about starting Howell in game 1. 

 

Not sure why that would make any sense since Wentz was the starting QB anyway. Maybe koolblue13 meant QB competition and see if Howell is #1. Will have to wait for koolblue13's response on this intriguing matter now lol 

[Koolblue13]

11 hours ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

This is a tired and speculative take. Nobody knows if this is true. 
 

Ron could’ve been wanted to sit Howell because he didn’t think it was fair to him to start the last game of the season against a vaunted pass rush. 
 

Neither scenario means that Ron didn’t plan to give Sam a chance in 2024 to win the job.

 

It’s just another dig at Ron.

Ron went after 41 QBs in 22. He thought he got his guy in 21. He said Howell would play when he was told we were out of the playoffs. When he thought we were in, he said it was Heini. 

 

Then Heini said no and Ron had to start Sam. That **** happened. Ron had no intention of starting Howell when he thought the season wasn't lost.

 

I'm no Ron hater.

[mistertim]

10 hours ago, oraphus said:

Ive been pretty vocal in my dislike of Ron as a HC/GM. Great guy, good person but a crappy HC and I see zero value in keeping him around for any other role with the team. Call me a hater if you want... but these are all reasons that would have caused any HC to be fired if we had a half decent owner with half a brain and less of his own duchery.

1. Non winning record

2. Inability to land a half decent QB in 4 years and getting fleeced in the trades for bad QBs

   a. Kyle Allen for a 5th.. when nobody wanted him

   b. Wentz .. we all know that one

3. Underperforming D - Inability to get the most out of a D with so much 1st rd talent and good players until 2nd half of last season from a D minded HC is unfathomable. Yes, i hold him responsible for poor hires. 

4. Poor drafting as a whole - especially in the upper rounds.

5. Poor hiring - Turner > giving him an extension and then firing him 

6. General baffoonery when he opens his mouth

 

I appreciate that he had to deal with a **** owner and "team culture" is better... whatever that means, but in the end the results speak for themselves. 

 

I don't completely disagree with your points, but when it comes to QB I think he was pretty saddled because basically the only way he was going to get a (potentially) semi-decent QB to come here is involuntarily via trade. No FA QB or QB with a no-trade clause would have come within 10 miles of this place. Hell, even Stafford, who didn't have a no-trade clause, convinced the Lions to not send him here.

 

As far as our D, I don't think they really underperformed last season. They were 3rd in yards per game allowed, behind the Niners and the Eagles, and top 10 in points allowed per game.

 

Again, some of your points are valid, but I don't think we should underestimate just how much of a dumpster fire this organization has been and how hard that makes it to create a winning team.

[Going Commando]

Why do you all continuously ignore the reality that we had very limited opportunity to actually improve our OL this off-season?  The improvements weren't coming this year via the draft.  This was an absolutely horrible OL class, and like three guys from the whole group will probably be capable of starting and playing well as rookies.  Even PJJr had dicey looking film that makes me doubt how good he will be as a rookie, and he was OL1.  The best OL in the class was a head case who literally turned us down and is a real threat to eat himself out of the league.  Once Skoronski went, the most we were possibly going to do via the draft was get nice pipeline OLs to develop, and we presumably got two.

 

The vet market was almost as bad, AND we had money constraints remember?  We had to go bargain shopping and didn't have Kaleb McGary or Orlando Brown or Jawaan Taylor money.  Getting Wylie for 8 million a year was good money.  Getting Gates for 5 million a year was decent, and we hedged our bet with him by drafting Stromberg.  Looking to start those day two and three pipeline OLs at the LG spot that you have been developing is how most teams build their lines.  It's why you draft those guys in the first place, and put in the years of work to develop them as players.  Nobody can fill an entire OL with stud second and third contract guys.  And the vast majority don't fill their line up with stud high round draft picks who are day one good players.  Everyone has to make a leap on day 2/3 development all over the roster because you are realistically only getting the picks for two day one starter rookies per draft.

 

Making the improvements to the OL that we did, in the context of the bad draft class and thin FA market, in the context of the shoestring budget during the sale, and in the context of being able to significantly upgrade the secondary while retaining the strength of our team, is good enough for this year.  It WILL help that we drastically improved our coaching on offense.  And it will help that Howell is a mobile QB who can get out of the pocket and slow the rush instead of leaving all of our OLs on an island in traditional pass blocking reps every pass play.  And there is absolutely nothing to say Ron can't or won't continue to add talent to the OL next off-season if Harris retains him.  In fact that is what I'd bet on, since it'd probably mean Howell played well and the first round OL crop already looks far more promising than this year's was.

 

Also LBer is going to be fine.  We spent a ****ing first round pick on LBer two years ago, that was a huge investment in the position group.  And Jamin is getting good.  Barton is decent and productive, and the emergence of Khaleke Hudson as a solid rotation player is a good thing, and an instance of our player development system working.  Not something to complain about.  We've got three decent looking options at a two man position group, and they are playing in between an elite DL and a strong looking secondary.  Can we stop whining about this finally?  It's the fifteenth most important factor in determining how our season will go.

 

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Going Commando

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Going Commando said:

Why do you all continuously ignore the reality that we had very limited opportunity to actually improve our OL this off-season?  The improvements weren't coming this year via the draft.  This was an absolutely horrible OL class, and like three guys from the whole group will probably be capable of starting and playing well as rookies.  Even PJJr had dicey looking film that makes me doubt how good he will be as a rookie, and he was OL1.  The best OL in the class was a head case who literally turned us down and is a real threat to eat himself out of the league.  Once Skoronski went, the most we were possibly going to do via the draft was get nice pipeline OLs to develop, and we presumably got two.

 

 

 

 

I spent as much time as anyone on that thread dissecting the O ine in the draft.  You asked me weeks ago to name what O lineman I'd have taken in FA.  And I went into detail about exactly what I'd do.  And no they weren't crazy expensive signings.

 

I think this regime, via likely Tim Gribble's acumen, is a good drafting team.  Not great.  But consistently good.  They do very little to nothing in FA or trades or if they do it, its poorly done and then work the draft mostly based on need.  And do a decent job drafting based on need. That's why they are mediocre but don't suck. Thank you likely Tim Gribble for that.  But I am not sure about the competence of the rest of that FO.  Overall, as for roster building "meh".  

 

So in short again, if they felt the draft was "meh" for O line then do something else.  The Giants had a bad receiving crew.  They addressed it everyway.  Multiple FA signings.  They made a big trade.  And traded up in the draft to get their guy.  That's how you do it IMO.  Have some urgency for a change.  You don't need 5 years to rebuild a team. 

 

The Giants did better in one season of a rebuild than Rivera did in 3 and likely will beat anything Rivera did in 4.  How slow burn does this have to be?  We talk about we got some strong units.  Cool.  What team doesn't?  Teams have strengths and weaknesses.  This team having some strengths but ending mediocre in year 4, if that's how it ends, won't be considered by most as a nice rebuild job from Ron.

 

You aren't just stuck, with hey them are the breaks, the draft didn't go our way.  Mayhew more or less said after the draft he regretted not being more aggressive.  Now granted apparently they tried to trade up for Avila but got thwarted.  I am not even an Avila guy.  But if I were like they apparently were and felt the O line might not be up to task (maybe they feel that way maybe they don't but I suspect they have concerns) I'd like the Giants try to really make it happen.

 

Keim flat out said O line was their top want each day before the draft unfolded.  So I don't really believe that they believe they got it rocking at that spot.  But they bet on the draft would fill their shopping list.  You commend them for not forcing the picks, regardless.  Look so do I.   Their 2nd round pick and 3rd round pick were on my short "my guys" list that I compiled before the draft.  But what I criticized them for is leaving a major need to be addressed in the draft which is their ammo.

 

1 hour ago, Going Commando said:

 

The vet market was almost as bad, AND we had money constraints remember?  We had to go bargain shopping

 

I'll say the same thing about this that I did to a Rivera critic last year and in that context I was a Rivera defender but not on this point.   Rivera was given a budget but yet spent it almost all on Wentz.  So he goes to me yeah he will give that Rivera had a budget but isn't it damning if Wentz sucks that Rivera blew it all on him.  I said yes of course it is. 

 

Same this time.  From what I understood he had a budget.  And he didn't by the way spend from what I understand all of it on those two players.  He has the budget for more.  The idea is like Leno years back they feel a marquee player could get released and they want the money to pounce.

 

So I like if they actually do that and sign another lineman or two, they will get me back.  If they don't then in my book its another budget miscalculation from Ron and IMO it would be the third year in a row of a bad FA run.  He did well in year 1 in FA.  but the last three years "meh" would be too nice to describe it.

 

1 hour ago, Going Commando said:

And there is absolutely nothing to say Ron can't or won't continue to add talent to the OL next off-season if Harris retains him.  In fact that is what I'd bet on, since it'd probably mean Howell played well and the first round OL crop already looks far more promising than this year's was.

 

 

If Harris retains him it would likely mean the O line was fine.  Yeah and in that context maybe.  I think @MartinC nailed it weeks back when he said he doesn't think Ron really values O line much.   So in that spririt, I doubt Ron would do much to upgrade the unit if the unit was serviceable this season.  Aside from Leno is getting old, so I'd bet they'd search for a replacement for him.

 

I think the odds are pretty low that Ron is back and would have that authority even if he did..  But anything is possible.

 

1 hour ago, Going Commando said:

 

 

Also LBer is going to be fine. 

 

I am not worried about LB.  I just mentioned it because of the discrepancy between what Ron says and what Ron actually does.  Al Galdi does a whoie bit about it on his podcast showcasing how Ron's statements change or how they are different than what he ends up doing.  LB is a classic case.   And my other point is Ron's fallback on multipe points seems to be on 2nd thought the answers are on the roster, no need to seek help elsewhere.    QB has been the exception but this time he went there with QB, too.

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[MartinC]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

If Harris retains him it would likely mean the O line was fine.  Yeah and in that context maybe.  I think @MartinC nailed it weeks back when he said he doesn't think Ron really values O line much.   So in that spririt, I doubt Ron would do much to upgrade the unit if the unit was serviceable this season.  Aside from Leno is getting old, so I'd bet they'd search for a replacement for him.

 

 

To qualify that a bit I do think they recognize that O'Line is a need. It seems like they had eyes on some of the higher ranked O'line as possible first round picks and if one of those had fallen I suspect they would have taken the O'line over DB. When their guys had gone they didn't reach which I 100% agree with and there wasn't someone in that 2nd round range they were in (or could get to) that would have been plug and play so I agree broadly with what they did there as well, though they could have been more aggressive..

 

I didn't follow the free agent market enough to know what was available or possible. Riser is still out there though and would probably be a day 1 starter here at LG.

 

But I do think Rivera feels comfortable going with lower cost vets and trusting they can develop in house past mid round draft picks into starters. They drafted another couple of guys this year mid round they no doubt hope to develop. Thats great if it works out but a big problem if it doesn't and unless you strike gold with a 4th rounder it almost guarantees the ceiling on your line is 'good but not great' with a floor thats much lower than that.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, MartinC said:

 

But I do think Rivera feels comfortable going with lower cost vets and trusting they can develop in house past mid round draft picks into starters. They drafted another couple of guys this year mid round they no doubt hope to develop. Thats great if it works out but a big problem if it doesn't and unless you strike gold with a 4th rounder it almost guarantees the ceiling on your line is 'good but not great' with a floor thats much lower than that.

 

Yeah I got the drift of the point orginally I think.  Any coach would love studs everywhere.   But you got to pick your spots, you have a limited pool of money and draft picks and it feels like Ron is willing to gamble more on the O line than most other spots.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Warhead36]

Individual talent of your OL don't matter. Its how they mesh as a unit and how the scheme calls plays for them.

 

People don't realize that the 49ers OL outside of Trent Williams is actually pretty bad, but Shanahan's scheme makes up for it.

 

I don't know if  Bienemy is Shanahan as an offensive mind, but he's definitely up there.

[Voice_of_Reason]

On 7/11/2023 at 10:02 AM, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Not saying Ridder won't be the dude.  I got no idea.  But it should be interesting to see him versus Howell this season.

Well, he’s better than his overpaid backup, that’s for sure.

 

(shots fired!)

[Skinsinparadise]

9 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Individual talent of your OL don't matter. Its how they mesh as a unit and how the scheme calls plays for them.

 

People don't realize that the 49ers OL outside of Trent Williams is actually pretty bad, but Shanahan's scheme makes up for it.

 

I don't know if  Bienemy is Shanahan as an offensive mind, but he's definitely up there.

 

PFF's point on the O line is similar to their take on the secondary -- if you have a weakness opponents will exploit it.  So their drill is don't have a dude who sucks on your O line because opposing defenses will find ways to exploit that player.

[Voice_of_Reason]

On 7/12/2023 at 10:54 AM, Skinsinparadise said:

 

TH without accuracy or arm strength or high end decision making chops IMO is a hopeless case.   Colt's accuracy is just OK and also lacks arm strength and his decision making is mediocre IMO.  I don't see see any OC transforming either player.  If Colt had it, he has had plenty of opportunities to showcase it.   Both do have moxie though.

 

Jay Gruden on one of his many “please don’t forget I exist and hire me to anything football related” podcast tour stops said he still thought Colt had what it took to be a starter, just couldn’t stay healthy when given the opportunity.

 

Just like about a lot of things, Jay was wrong about that.  

On 7/12/2023 at 9:46 PM, MartinC said:

You think John Beck was bad - you should have seen Cary Conklin ‘play’.

 

[oraphus]

1 hour ago, MartinC said:

 

To qualify that a bit I do think they recognize that O'Line is a need. It seems like they had eyes on some of the higher ranked O'line as possible first round picks and if one of those had fallen I suspect they would have taken the O'line over DB. When their guys had gone they didn't reach which I 100% agree with and there wasn't someone in that 2nd round range they were in (or could get to) that would have been plug and play so I agree broadly with what they did there as well, though they could have been more aggressive..

 

I didn't follow the free agent market enough to know what was available or possible. Riser is still out there though and would probably be a day 1 starter here at LG.

 

But I do think Rivera feels comfortable going with lower cost vets and trusting they can develop in house past mid round draft picks into starters. They drafted another couple of guys this year mid round they no doubt hope to develop. Thats great if it works out but a big problem if it doesn't and unless you strike gold with a 4th rounder it almost guarantees the ceiling on your line is 'good but not great' with a floor thats much lower than that.

I actually feel O line play will be better this year... I laugh at all the pundits that say Wash O line is even worse this year than last year.  Biggest hole last year was Center.. period. Without a decent center the rest of the line falls apart. RT play wasnt good also. It now looks like we have 2 at least above avg centers that dont have an inj history. Combine that with a different O system (more zone blocking, quicker passing, etc. and I believe the O line will perform better.  

All in all though.. this FO has not shown aptitude for finding or understanding good O line players. (their oline solution in 2022 was horrendous)  If Riverra could see past his nose, he would create a forward looking strategy for finding players... meaning find O line players in strong O line drafts, and focus on other areas in weak ones.  Its my other gripe with Riverra.. all his actions are reactionary. No planning, no foresight.. He is playing checkers while the rest of the NFL is playing chess. 

[MartinC]

31 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Individual talent of your OL don't matter. Its how they mesh as a unit and how the scheme calls plays for them.

 

People don't realize that the 49ers OL outside of Trent Williams is actually pretty bad, but Shanahan's scheme makes up for it.

 

I don't know if  Bienemy is Shanahan as an offensive mind, but he's definitely up there.

 

O'line is certainly the sum of the parts - but if you have one stud or even a plus starter on the line it allows you to slide protections and provide help or double team away from that player. We don't have that guy so it makes it easier to attack our protections and harder for us to cover up a weakness.

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Jay Gruden on one of his many “please don’t forget I exist and hire me to anything football related” podcast tour stops said he still thought Colt had what it took to be a starter, just couldn’t stay healthy when given the opportunity.

 

Just like about a lot of things, Jay was wrong about that.  

 

 

Agree he was wrong.  But I'll give him he's been somewhat measured on that point in podcasts.

 

When asked who is the best QB he had, he's said Kirk.  He's made it pretty clear that Alex was his 2nd best.  He hasn't really hyped Colt much.  But agree at that time, the vibe was Jay thought Colt could do it. 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

39 minutes ago, oraphus said:

I actually feel O line play will be better this year... I laugh at all the pundits that say Wash O line is even worse this year than last year.  Biggest hole last year was Center.. period. Without a decent center the rest of the line falls apart. RT play wasnt good also. It now looks like we have 2 at least above avg centers that dont have an inj history. Combine that with a different O system (more zone blocking, quicker passing, etc. and I believe the O line will perform better.  

All in all though.. this FO has not shown aptitude for finding or understanding good O line players. (their oline solution in 2022 was horrendous)  If Riverra could see past his nose, he would create a forward looking strategy for finding players... meaning find O line players in strong O line drafts, and focus on other areas in weak ones.  Its my other gripe with Riverra.. all his actions are reactionary. No planning, no foresight.. He is playing checkers while the rest of the NFL is playing chess. 

 

I don't think its worse myself.  I think its marginally better.  I do think the scheme should help but there are limits on that front considering at some junctures in games its going to have to be man on man.  Can Leno block Thibideaux?  I am rewatching those Giants games and man was he a handful for him.  Can S. Charles block Lawrence?    Can Wylie handle Parsons?

 

And you don't have that one dude who you can leave on an island.  Arguably all these guys need help against the better pass rushers.   Forgot who talked about it but one who covered KC said for example Wylie got a lot of help last year on the right side since he was their weak link.  

 

As for opinions on that unit.  If I recall PFF has it at 27.  PFN 26.  Matt Miller-ESPN.  32.   Sharp 30.

 

I am closer to the 26 ranking from PFN.  A bad O line but not the worst.

 

I think the depth might be worse at OG.  But its improved at C.  The same at tackle IMO. 

 

Agree that Ron is mostly reactionary in how he builds a roster. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Skinsinparadise