The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[88Comrade2000]

5 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

What would it take to bring Wentz back? Making the playoffs is a minimum I'd guess, but what if he plays really well and we're scoring like 30 PPG but only manage to go 1-1(or worse) and miss it? Do we still consider bringing him back? 

I think anything short a playoff win and Ron looks to replace him. 

[88Comrade2000]

4 hours ago, lavar1156 said:

Ok fine. Let's trade the future to move up and draft a QB.

2024.

 

We aren’t getting the long term answer next year. Ron’s not going to put his future on Howell or a rookie; so he will go the vet route again. That could be Carson or some other vet.  The ownership change won’t happen in time for the qb to be drafted. A decision at qb for 23 will have been made.

[Simmsy]

Guys, I've figured it all out and I know how to get us to the Superbowl THIS year! I had an epiphany while waiting for my train. Ok, here is what we need to do for guaranteed success. I've tested it through all of the algorithms and t definitely holds water! All we have to do is...Oops, my train is here. I'll tell you guys when I get home. Wait here, I'll be right back...

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, Simmsy said:

Guys, I've figured it all out and I know how to get us to the Superbowl THIS year! I had an epiphany while waiting for my train. Ok, here is what we need to do for guaranteed success. I've tested it through all of the algorithms and t definitely holds water! All we have to do is...Oops, my train is here. I'll tell you guys when I get home. Wait here, I'll be right back...

 

[Skinsinparadise]

The Commanders need a jolt at quarterback. Will Carson Wentz do?

 

 

 

Teetering along their path to the postseason, the Commanders are poised to make the most consequential decision of Coach Ron Rivera’s three seasons with the franchise. It also feels like the most predictable decision. 

 

...If you isolate the past two seasons, Rivera’s team is 1-5-1 in December. Heinicke has started all six of those games. The offense has failed to produce more than 20 points in each of them.

 

...Wentz had disastrous moments early in the season because he was learning offensive coordinator Scott Turner’s system, and he has a bad habit of holding on to the football too long. Then Wentz broke a finger, and Heinicke replaced him. Heinicke’s familiarity with the offense and quicker decision-making, along with the improved running game with rookie Brian Robinson Jr., helped the Commanders for the bulk of a stretch in which they won five of six games after a 2-4 start. But now that teams have gotten used to them again, the Commanders are in need of further revision. And this is why Heinicke’s limitations now outweigh his positives.

 

...The Commanders need a boost: more big plays, more surprises, more margin for error. They will have to settle for the erratic skill set of Wentz.

 

...It was a compassionate way to explain away the fact that he really wanted to see how Wentz looked in an offense that has improved since the beginning of the season. Wentz went 2-4 as the starter before Robinson became a major factor, before the receiving corps took form and before the entire offense developed its run-based identity. Washington traded for Wentz thinking he could amplify a young and talented unit. With the offense struggling and Heinicke lacking the skills to take on a heavier load, Rivera couldn’t resist flirting with the original plan.

 

 

...Even with all the qualifiers about how conservative San Francisco was at that point, the lasting impression for Rivera wasn’t just the stats. It was how Wentz operated. He was decisive. He escaped the pass rush and made a highlight-reel flip pass to get started. He showed superior arm strength and an ability to jolt the offense out of an incremental slog.

It was refreshing to see, especially on a day when Washington failed to score during a 17-play, 84-yard drive that lasted more than 10 minutes. The team has struggled in the red zone and faced an alarming number of third-and-long situations recently. It remains to be seen whether Wentz can fix his own red-zone issues and limit negative plays. But in theory, he can diversify the offense because he has ideal size, can make every throw and still flashes standout traits.

 

...Now Wentz may get the chance to show what he learned from that debacle. Rivera and the front office can salvage the questionable move they made nine months ago, or they can endure a double dose of second-guessing — one for pursuing Wentz in the first place, another for going back to him when Heinicke is a steadier but not spectacular choice.

The Commanders don’t have a comfortable option. At this point, each seems like a gamble. There are no great percentages for Riverboat Ron to play. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/12/25/carson-wentz-taylor-heinicke-commanders/

[wit33]

 

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

The Commanders need a jolt at quarterback. Will Carson Wentz do?

 

 

 

Teetering along their path to the postseason, the Commanders are poised to make the most consequential decision of Coach Ron Rivera’s three seasons with the franchise. It also feels like the most predictable decision. 

 

...If you isolate the past two seasons, Rivera’s team is 1-5-1 in December. Heinicke has started all six of those games. The offense has failed to produce more than 20 points in each of them.

 

...Wentz had disastrous moments early in the season because he was learning offensive coordinator Scott Turner’s system, and he has a bad habit of holding on to the football too long. Then Wentz broke a finger, and Heinicke replaced him. Heinicke’s familiarity with the offense and quicker decision-making, along with the improved running game with rookie Brian Robinson Jr., helped the Commanders for the bulk of a stretch in which they won five of six games after a 2-4 start. But now that teams have gotten used to them again, the Commanders are in need of further revision. And this is why Heinicke’s limitations now outweigh his positives.

 

...The Commanders need a boost: more big plays, more surprises, more margin for error. They will have to settle for the erratic skill set of Wentz.

 

...It was a compassionate way to explain away the fact that he really wanted to see how Wentz looked in an offense that has improved since the beginning of the season. Wentz went 2-4 as the starter before Robinson became a major factor, before the receiving corps took form and before the entire offense developed its run-based identity. Washington traded for Wentz thinking he could amplify a young and talented unit. With the offense struggling and Heinicke lacking the skills to take on a heavier load, Rivera couldn’t resist flirting with the original plan.

 

 

...Even with all the qualifiers about how conservative San Francisco was at that point, the lasting impression for Rivera wasn’t just the stats. It was how Wentz operated. He was decisive. He escaped the pass rush and made a highlight-reel flip pass to get started. He showed superior arm strength and an ability to jolt the offense out of an incremental slog.

It was refreshing to see, especially on a day when Washington failed to score during a 17-play, 84-yard drive that lasted more than 10 minutes. The team has struggled in the red zone and faced an alarming number of third-and-long situations recently. It remains to be seen whether Wentz can fix his own red-zone issues and limit negative plays. But in theory, he can diversify the offense because he has ideal size, can make every throw and still flashes standout traits.

 

...Now Wentz may get the chance to show what he learned from that debacle. Rivera and the front office can salvage the questionable move they made nine months ago, or they can endure a double dose of second-guessing — one for pursuing Wentz in the first place, another for going back to him when Heinicke is a steadier but not spectacular choice.

The Commanders don’t have a comfortable option. At this point, each seems like a gamble. There are no great percentages for Riverboat Ron to play. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/12/25/carson-wentz-taylor-heinicke-commanders/

Personally, I’m in a tough spot, I want Wentz to crush it, but like you, zero interest in paying nearly $30mil for his services next year. Anyway you see the organization paying him next year if he leads team to playoffs and come close or wins a playoff game?

 

Im not completely out on Wentz as a starter next year, but at a reduced cost. Continuity is supreme in the NFL and have great interest in running back while adding to Oline. 
 

My hope is more time studying and seeing the offense he improves ability to hit the layups available within the offense. He wasn’t impressive as a whole, but he certainly in his short time displayed his penchant to hit big plays. I was over the moon and convinced the offense was going to be high powered after first couple games, was completely unsure if Wentz could be efficient enough to have any substance or real juice—especially with learning his legs are nowhere near where they once were. 

Edited December 26, 2022 by wit33

[Skinsinparadise]

15 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

Personally, I’m in a tough spot, I want Wentz to crush it, but like you, zero interest in paying nearly $30mil for his services next year. Anyway you see the organization paying him next year if he leads team to playoffs and come close or wins a playoff game?

 

Im not completely out on Wentz as a starter next year, but at a reduced cost. Continuity is supreme in the NFL and have great interest in running back while adding to Oline. 
 

My hope is more time studying and seeing the offense he improves ability to hit the layups available within the offense. He wasn’t impressive as a whole, but he certainly in his short time displayed his penchant to hit big plays. I was over the moon and convinced the offense was going to be high powered after first couple games, was completely unsure if Wentz could be efficient enough to have any substance or real juice—especially with learning his legs are nowhere near where they once were. 

 

To my eyes Heinicke and Wentz have one thing in common that makes me down on either as a starter.  That is, both are capable I think of playing with more risk as for sacrificing their body in games, yet they don't.

 

On a human level, I get it. Easy for me to say risk injury from my couch.  But both players IMO are at their best when they play with abandon.  In Heinicke's case, running the ball.  In Weintz's case moving around the pocket.  Judging by interviews, Taylor is scared of getting hurt, and ditto Wentz.  

 

I do think Wentz legimately lost some of his athletcism.  But he also doesn't seem to be taking the risks he did playing from the pocket that he did in Indy.

 

I think neither dude is a Brees, Peyton, Brady type who can kill you from the pocket.

 

I am 100% out on Heinicke being a starter on this team.   I am at about 90% out on Wentz.  While I am cynical about it, I have at least an open mind that with more time studying the offense, better running game, better defense, less onus on the passing game now versus then -- there is a chance he plays better than earlier in the season.

 

Looking forward to next season, I want a minimum of average QB play at a manageable price and or a QB who is mobile who adds to a Titan's style, Marty Ball, offense next year.

Edited December 26, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Warhead36]

I'm not gonna lie I kinda am excited to see what Wentz can do with an actual run game. Last year he was an outstanding play action passer with the run heavy Colts and unlike the 49ers, you absolutely can run on the Browns(and throw on them too). 

[wit33]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

To my eyes Heinicke and Wentz have one thing in common that makes me down on either as a starter.  That is, both are capable I think of playing with more risk as for sacrificing their body in games, yet they don't.

 

On a human level, I get it. Easy for me to say risk injury from my couch.  But both players IMO are at their best when they play with abandon.  In Heinicke's case, running the ball.  In Weintz's case moving around the pocket.  Judging by interviews, Taylor is scared of getting hurt, and ditto Wentz.  

 

I do think Wentz legimately lost some of his athletcism.  But he also doesn't seem to be taking the risks he did playing from the pocket that he did in Indy.

 

I think neither dude is a Brees, Peyton, Brady type who can kill you from the pocket.

 

I am 100% out on Heinicke being a starter on this team.   I am at about 90% out on Wentz.  While I am cynical about it, I have at least an open mind that with more time studying the offense, better running game, better defense, less onus on the passing game now versus then -- there is a chance he plays better than earlier in the season.

 

Looking forward to next season, I want a minimum of average QB play at a manageable price and or a QB who is mobile who adds to a Titan's style, Marty Ball, offense next year.

Seems impossible Wentz could lose as much athleticism as it seemed when watching this year. He’s still a fairly young guy and was never fast twitch type guy (my belief is most lose this before anything else). Would love to see him used in the red zone in some ways similarly to Josh Allen, an added power run threat. To your point, maybe those reckless and wild days are behind since injuries and becoming a dad. 
 

Wentz fails is providing rhythm and flow to an offense, it’s too common for him to go 3-4 consecutive drives without the offense possessing or advancing the ball. This is where Heineke blows him out of the water. As I mentioned in previous post, my hope he advanced enough in the offense to consistently hit layups and maintain ability to dominate time of possession. 
 

Hard not to see him back next season if they make the playoffs. 

[Skinsinparadise]

17 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Seems impossible Wentz could lose as much athleticism as it seemed when watching this year. He’s still a fairly young guy and was never fast twitch type guy (my belief is most lose this before anything else). Would love to see him used in the red zone in some ways similarly to Josh Allen, an added power run threat. To your point, maybe those reckless and wild days are behind since injuries and becoming a dad. 
 

Wentz fails is providing rhythm and flow to an offense, it’s too common for him to go 3-4 consecutive drives without the offense possessing or advancing the ball. This is where Heineke blows him out of the water. As I mentioned in previous post, my hope he advanced enough in the offense to consistently hit layups and maintain ability to dominate time of possession. 
 

Hard not to see him back next season if they make the playoffs. 

 

On gaining first downs, their stats are pretty comparable factoring in Taylor has played in more games, projecting it based on that Wentz actually might have the slight edge.

 

But yeah Wentz was much more up and down, with plenty of down.  

 

To use a baseball analogy, Heinicke was consistently batting somewhere between 250 and 220.  Wentz's bad games were like 185.  Good games -- Lions, Titans, 2nd half of the Lions game he was 295.

17 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

Hard not to see him back next season if they make the playoffs. 

 

If they make it I think it depends on how they make it.  If its running the Heinicke script where he throws 25 times or so, and just looks OK, I think they might still move on.  If he kills it, which would surprise me, yeah I think they keep him. 

 

The quandry is judging by Ron's rhetoric he wants to keep Payne. 

Edited December 26, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

My #1 fear with Wentz is his composure under pressure

 

 

 

Neither hot but will see...

 

 

 

[MrJL]

NBC4 had a poll on who should be the starter.  Wentz had 19%, Heinicke 70%, Howell 11%

[Redskins 2021]

Unfortunately, put the dolphins in as a team looking for a qb after Tua news today.

[Conn]

2 minutes ago, MrJL said:

NBC4 had a poll on who should be the starter.  Wentz had 19%, Heinicke 70%, Howell 11%

This doesn’t surprise me, whenever I make the mistake of reading the random fan responses under Washington QB related tweets, it becomes clear to me that the casual, less-informed fan who just says whatever off the top of their head LOVES Heinicke. They think he’s actually good, it’s kind of scary. Probably because there hasn’t been much positive to get obsessive about digging into over the years, but our fanbase IQ certainly seems to have dropped over the years. 

[Skinsinparadise]

That's just for the game. Small sample.

 

Edited December 26, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

almost 3000 votes

[mojo]

5 hours ago, redskinss said:

There's a lot to unpack here.

First off, I don't believe you when you say you expected to see Wentz excel and heinicke awful. 

I believe you said that so that your next comments would seem unbiased but they didnt.

Heinicke did have some great throws and his qbr for the game and almost universal praise for his first half performance indicates that but you conveniently ignored yet another lost fumble and an atrocious throw resulting in an interception while somehow simultaneously faulting Wentz for a great improvisational play resulting in a large gain and a first down.

You very well could be right about Wentz and how the browns game plays out but your take on the performance from the two of them in the 49ers game comes off very Homerish. 

Could not care less what part of my post you “believe” but yea after just seeing the score and knowing Heinicke had been pulled but not actually watching the game, I was surprised by how well Heinicke played.

The biggest problem with the Niner game was our horrible O line, Scott Turner, and our defense giving up huge chunk plays all day.  Neither Wentz nor Heinicke were going to win that game.

Regardless I stand by what I said, Wentz threw a horrible pass in the red zone that should have been picked and this question would have never come up 

Edited December 27, 2022 by mojo

[redskinss]

30 minutes ago, mojo said:

Could not care less what part of my post you “believe”

I don't believe you.

😁

[LadySkinsFan]

The biggest difference between Taylor and Carson is Taylor fires up the team. The OL is pretty horrible and it's no wonder the Hogs don't want any comparison to the present one. It's been sadly overlooked and understaffed. And it's the foundation of the offense. No QB can function correctly without a really good to great OL.

 

Neither QB should be our starter next year. Rivera is going to play who he wants the next two games trying to get to one and done in the playoffs. It won't work. 

 

I think we need an offensive minded head coach and a really strong offensive coordinator. As long as Snyder owns the team, that's not happening. So figure another 2-3 years before we get more competitive.

[WFT4Ever]

No offense to anyone in particular but I am so tired of this “Taylor gets the team fired up” argument.

 

Do people really think that Jon Allen and Jahan Dotson are out here ready to give up but then look at Taylor and are like “oh wait, nevermind, I DO want to give it all I got”

 

If any player needs more motivation than trying to win the next game they should be cut. Period. I think this is something the media made up and fans seem to cling to it. And a perfect counter point to this is Curtis Samuels TD reaction. 
 

The players seem to like Taylor, maybe because he’s an underdog.  But I also think they like winning/ getting more receptions even more. I don’t see there being a drop off in production from anyone just because Wentz is back

[JSSkinz]

What more can Wentz ask for, you come off injury and get the starting job back and you're in a playoff spot needing to win the next two at home to get it.

 

He has a chance to change the narrative the Colts put on him last year, he should be excited and ready to ball if he has any worth as a QB.

 

 

[Warhead36]

1 hour ago, WFT4Ever said:

No offense to anyone in particular but I am so tired of this “Taylor gets the team fired up” argument.

 

Do people really think that Jon Allen and Jahan Dotson are out here ready to give up but then look at Taylor and are like “oh wait, nevermind, I DO want to give it all I got”

 

If any player needs more motivation than trying to win the next game they should be cut. Period. I think this is something the media made up and fans seem to cling to it. And a perfect counter point to this is Curtis Samuels TD reaction. 
 

The players seem to like Taylor, maybe because he’s an underdog.  But I also think they like winning/ getting more receptions even more. I don’t see there being a drop off in production from anyone just because Wentz is back

Yeah I have always hated that argument. You're telling me Terry McLaurin doesn't always play hard? Or Jon Allen? Its downright insulting to those guys(among others) to say "they play harder for Heinicke." 

[Leonard Washington]

7 hours ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

I think anything short a playoff win and Ron looks to replace him. 

If he puts up stats, he stays. Hopefully they pursue a restructure but it’s not really that much in today’s NFL. Regardless they will look to bring in more talent. 

[Renegade7]

8 hours ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

I think anything short a playoff win and Ron looks to replace him. 

 

This is fair, as that's why he was brought here.

 

Going back to him brings me back to my bird in hand concern.  I will not be happy outright releasing Wentz unless it's clear what the plan is to replace him.

 

Don't try to convince me "oh we'll figure it out" when he haven't figured it out this century.

 

 

[CapsSkins]

Shout out to @wit33:

 

I’m hoping for Wentz to play well enough to be a better option at a $20M cap hit than Derek Carr would be at a $40M cap hit.

 

We’re entering a period where there are a number of non-elite QBs with >15% cap hits, which in recent history has been anomalous among Super Bowl-reaching QBs (the exception being Peyton Manning and also Matt Ryan the year he made it).

 

Case in point: though we are in a QB-driven league, we are headed into uncharted waters in terms of Derek Carr / Kirk Cousins tier QBs costing as much as they do, and it’s not clear that that’s a better option than a Wentz or Mariota level guy at 8-10% of the cap.

 

Heinicke is not good enough no matter how small his cap hit is. But I’m not convinced that we can’t go the distance by building a great team around Wentz. If he can perform closer to his level last year, it would go a long way towards me wanting him back at a reduced cap hit. And I don’t see why he wouldn’t take a pay cut to come back to a good situation with system and locker room familiarity rather than testing the waters elsewhere in FA. I certainly don’t know who else would pay him $30M.

 

Edited December 27, 2022 by CapsSkins