The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[KDawg]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

The Commanders have entered the national picture. Now, to stay there.

 

This is without question rarefied air for the Washington Commanders. Television executives, who know everything about the viewing habits of red-blooded, football-thirsty Americans, decided those red-blooded, football-thirsty Americans would tune out a game involving Bill Belichick’s post-dynasty New England Patriots going up against one of his proteges and would prefer some Taylor Heinicke vs. Daniel Jones.

 

 

Revel in it while you can, Washington.

“We’ve worked to try to become relevant,” Commanders Coach Ron Rivera said.

In a given December in the nation’s capital, that can’t be taken for granted. A 6-1-1 stretch transformed this weekend’s home game against the New York Giants into “Sunday Night Football” — replacing the Patriots and the Las Vegas Raiders, coached by former New England offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels. It might not be beautiful football. It is must-see TV. After so many meaningless holiday seasons, that shouldn’t be discounted.

 

But the goal here can’t be just a two-month stretch of relevance. The goal, both obvious and stated, must be to crank out December after December in which relevance is expected and the Commanders aren’t an afterthought but an actual threat.

 

Is that what’s happening? Does relevance in 2022 mean this roster and coaching staff will be back in playoff contention a year from now? And a year after that?

“You kind of look at every position,” quarterback Taylor Heinicke said. “You’re like, ‘Man, we got dudes at every position.’ ”

Well, except quarterback. We’ll get back to that.

 

There’s some truth in what Heinicke’s saying. The defensive line is obviously loaded with actual stars — Jonathan Allen and Daron Payne and Montez Sweat, with Chase Young (presumably) on his way back. The wide receiving core is led by Terry McLaurin, but it’s possible Curtis Samuel is even more dynamic, and rookie Jahan Dotson is promising and developing. Kam Curl is already a beast at safety, and Benjamin St-Juste is having a breakout season as a cornerback. The offensive line is banged-up but resilient, making holes for bruising running back Brian Robinson Jr. Logan Thomas is a reliable tight end. Jamin Davis has overcome a lost rookie season and makes plays at linebacker.

 

That’s dudes at every position.

“With what’s been happening with our young players playing and contributing, that helps,” Rivera said. “That kind of tells you that we’re heading in the right direction, and with the right mix of veterans, and you do feel like you have the type of foundation that you can sustain. That’s what we’re hoping for. That’s what we’re trying to build.”

In the last generation of Washington football, nothing sustainable has been built. There’s no overstating that fact. Every coach who has come in here intended to do what Rivera says he’s doing now. Intentions do not equal results.

Sustainable, in the NFL, should mean making repeated trips to the playoffs. That would indicate a core is in place and the right pieces are consistently filled in around it. That’s not something with which modern Washington football fans are familiar.

 

....So enjoy it. But while you do, think about whether this run means something sustainable is being built. Would a playoff appearance to close the 2022 season mean bigger and better goals are attainable in 2023?

“The more the young players get to play the last couple of years, including this year as well, it’s been very beneficial because that’s where your core is going to come from,” Rivera said. “Because as they develop and grow as a group together, you can add from that point on. And that’s really kind of what we’re hoping to do.”

Identifiable pieces of that core: McLaurin and Allen are both signed through the 2025 season, giving the Commanders leadership and production on both sides of the ball. There are upcoming contract decisions on Payne, Sweat and Young, but it’s reasonable to believe that some combination of those players will make the defensive line a strength for the next several years.

 

 

Samuel has another year on his free agent deal. Davis, Curl, St-Juste, Dotson and Robinson are among those on rookie contracts. Roster-wise, there’s a lot to like.

And yet, somehow, it feels . . . fragile. Sustainability should have a sturdiness about it, an underlying tone that what already has been accomplished is just the beginning, that more is possible. With the Commanders, the possibilities don’t feel, at the moment, limitless. They feel decidedly limited.

That’s because, even with “dudes” at every position, they rank 28th in the league in yards per play (4.9). That’s because they rank 26th in net yards per pass attempt. That’s because they score on 30.7 percent of their offensive drives, better than just five teams. That’s because, seemingly every week, they play a one-score game that could go either way.

 

So, then, quarterback. We know, by now, Heinicke’s strengths — which are essentially resilience and inventiveness — and his limitations, and the list is long. We know Carson Wentz, even if he plays at some point over the final four weeks, isn’t the long-term answer — and in this case, long term includes 2023.

There’s a lot to admire about this run and this roster, and a prime-time game against a division rival in the season’s final month gives Rivera a chance to show it all off. But the core, at the moment, does not include a quarterback, and the search for that player remains the biggest reason Washington, for generations, hasn’t consistently been worthy of games like it will play Sunday — in prime time, for all the world to see.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/12/15/washington-commanders-playoffs/

I saw the headline, “The Commanders have entered…”

 

And I thought for sure the next words were “the transfer portal.”

 

I need to get out more.

[CommanderCarson]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

Can you actually refute what I said in the bolded portion, or are you just going to complain about me saying it multiple times? The reason I keep saying it is because it's true, and it seems people keep ignoring it because they don't like it because it doesn't fit in with their preferred narrative.

 

Seriously, pretty much every single NFL coach acknowledges it. I'm not making it up.

 

And the super bowl is still a ludicrous thing to think about when our offense sucks.

So was going 5-1-1 with Taylor Heineke.

[Skinsinparadise]

Helps to have a great defense, especially this season.  Zach Wilson 5-2.   Brock Purdy 3-0.  49ers #1 ranked defense.  Jets #3.

 

I think Heinicke over Wentz is a reasonable debate.   But on the aggregate Heinicke IMO is a backup and he's only cementing that notion this season.  I am not really worried about this discussion though about it because listening to beat guys and Rivera's own comments, I think zero shot they see him as the answer next season unless there is some late season surge in play from him.

 

But for now, Heinicke needs to start playing better.  As @Voice_of_Reason likes to say some in the media like Bram and Pete Hailey are smitten by the dude.  But even those two have come off the bandwagon of late and said he needs to play better.  

 

The Giants defense isn't good.  Neither were the Vikings.  Neither were the Falcons.  Yet, Heinicke was "meh" against all three teams.  He needs to step it up.  Please, please, please take off and run more Taylor.   As Finlay's podcast crew said the other day, Wentz playing in one less game has still thrown for more yards and TDs than Heinicke.  But to me the more damning stat is Wentz has run for more yards, too.  Taylor run! 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Thinking Skins]

13 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

Being horrid in the red zone and having a low scoring offense in general are not "little shortcomings". Those are more or less deal breakers for any major run. Once we hit an opponent who can shut down our run game or who starts putting major points up on our defense, we're basically done for because there's pretty much zero chance of us even being competitive in a shootout.

That's not the totalty of our offense. THe 2022 version is all about getting the ball in the hands of our weapons. Terry, Doctson, Samuel, Gibson, Robinson. Thats who's doing the most of the work. The way we scored against NY is how I want to see us score the rest of the year - get the ball to our weapons and let them dazzle. This 5 person combo has been making the first and sometimes second guy miss all year. Those TD passes to Robinson, Doctson and Terry were  not runs although they basically amounted to YAC TDs. 

 

The problems have been missed opportunities. Taylor missed Logan in the end zone twice and has passed on underneath stuff cause he was trying to play hero ball. Thats Wentz's problem too, along with him throwing a harder to catch ball and thinking Doctson was the #1 and not Terry. But our winning formula is similar to SFs and they are just spanking teams. 

[BigDibbs31]

2 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

That's not the totalty of our offense. THe 2022 version is all about getting the ball in the hands of our weapons. Terry, Doctson, Samuel, Gibson, Robinson. Thats who's doing the most of the work. The way we scored against NY is how I want to see us score the rest of the year - get the ball to our weapons and let them dazzle. This 5 person combo has been making the first and sometimes second guy miss all year. Those TD passes to Robinson, Doctson and Terry were  not runs although they basically amounted to YAC TDs. 

 

The problems have been missed opportunities. Taylor missed Logan in the end zone twice and has passed on underneath stuff cause he was trying to play hero ball. Thats Wentz's problem too, along with him throwing a harder to catch ball and thinking Doctson was the #1 and not Terry. But our winning formula is similar to SFs and they are just spanking teams. 

Please dont misspell Dotson as Doctson on here LOL. Brings back night terrors and is an insult to Jahan

Edited December 17, 2022 by BigDibbs31

[Skinsinparadise]

I posted an interview of Payne and Allen on the defense thread.  In that interview, they talk about how hard is it to defend a QB who runs.  They talk about it effects their rushes because they have multiple things to think about including making sure they don't open a rushing lane for the QB.  they also talked about how it wears them down physically.  They talked about how Fields exhausted them that game, they were wiped.

 

In Keim's latest podcast, he mentioned it would benefit them in this rematch if Taylor ran more.

 

Seems like every beat guy is now pounding the point about Taylor not running -- heck they even grilled him on the subject this week with Taylor more or less saying let Daniel Jones run, he does his thing, and Taylor will do his own thing.   At a minimum I wonder it Taylor does have a breaking point with all the questions and watching the opponent QB use their wheels where he goes F'it and starts running again. 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I think the primary reasons everyone is hammering him not running of late is two things:

 

A. Several obvious opportunities on the broadcast cut where he opted to throw an errant pass instead of take the free yards in front of him.

 

B. The offense desperately needs another element for defenses to worry about as we enter the brutal winter against some better defenses.

 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I think the primary reasons everyone is hammering him not running of late is two things:

 

A. Several obvious opportunities on the broadcast cut where he opted to throw an errant pass instead of take the free yards in front of him.

 

B. The offense desperately needs another element for defenses to worry about as we enter the brutal winter against some better defenses.

 

 

 

 

 

Yep and the result of both variables is the offense aside from the RBs have looked weak against some of the weakest defenses in the NFL.   

 

 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Cooley on Sheehan's latest podcast.

 

A. I can pick up from multiple podcasts that he loves this roster sans QB and pass blocking.  He comes off like QB is the bigger problem of the two weaknesses. 

 

B. Like Paulsen he thinks part of the problem with this team's pass protection is they don't readjust their protections well presnap.  They (more so Paulsen) seem to hint its on the center and the QB.

 

C.  Paulsen basically said the Giants D coordinator locked into the tendency of the pass protection to be just locked in to their preplay assignments without any readjusments and the Giants teed off at that tendency.  That's part of the reason why their edge rushers at times came at the Qb unblocked.   The Giants defensive coordinator basically had the defense readjust to what they saw at the line of scrimmage and the O line didn't adjust back.

 

D.  Cooley said they might be better uptempo in part because you don't have to worry about readjusting protections so their struggles at calling protections at the line of scrimmage isn't exposed the same way

 

E.  Cooley said if we had Daniel Jones, we'd be a legit SB threat.  He's not in love with Jones but thinks he's signficantly better than Taylor.

 

F.  Cooley likes the weapons we have but said even if Heinicke's weapons were upgraded ala the Dolphins, he doesn't think he'd play better.  He thinks there is a baseline/ceiiling of what Heinicke can do and we are seeing it in full now.  Conversely, he thinks if you load up Daniel Jones with weapons you'd see a big step up.

 

G.  Both Cooley and Sheehan bemoaned Heinicke not running.  Cooley thinks its perhaps about Taylor not wanting to get hurt and considering Wentz is no ordinary backup that if Taylor is dinged up and Wentz comes in and plays well he loses the job. 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[FootballZombie]

Even when he did run he never constantly showed a good ability or wherewithal to protect himself in the open field. The only way he managed to do so was by stopping running altogether.

 

If that ever starts back up he immediately goes back to the guy who leans his own head into oncoming defenders. Not to say its not worth the risk as providing something is better than nothing, just pointing out he has not instilled any sense of confidence in me that he can rush at even a low level w/o getting his head taken off.

Edited December 17, 2022 by FootballZombie

[Voice_of_Reason]

6 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

But for now, Heinicke needs to start playing better.  As @Voice_of_Reason likes to say some in the media like Bram and Pete Hailey are smitten by the dude.  But even those two have come off the bandwagon of late and said he needs to play better.  

The guy who hasn’t seemed to waiver is Al Galdi.  He really loves TH and thinks arm strength stuff is over blown.  He acknowledges the passing game issues and they need to do better but somewhat(not entirely) gives TH a pass.

 

After the Giants game, he even said TH was more good than bad, and then quoted the 28.4 (or whatever it was) QBR and sortof poopooed it away.  I’m fact in one of Al’s rhyming keys, it was to TH to play well to avoid Ron going back to Wentz.  (I don’t remember the rhyme.  
 

Michael Phillips also said he sees no reason to see Wentz again.

 

I think If the offense is stuck in the mud the first half of the Giants game Ron makes the change at halftime.  I think he’s wanted to go back to Wentz ASAP because if you add even the threat of a deep PA shot to our run game, that’s better than what we have now.  But he can’t because of the Moxie Magic and you don’t mess with success.  
 

But I don’t think Ron is going to let TH lose this game.  If he’s struggling, I think he’s going to get benched.  
 

Hopefully he doesn’t struggle because that means we’re most likely winning.  And that would be nice.  

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

Even when he did run he never constantly showed an good ability or wherewithal to protect himself in the open field. The only way he managed to do so was by stopping running altogether.

 

If that ever starts back up he immediately goes back to the guy who leans his own head into oncoming defenders. Not to say its not worth the risk as providing something is better than nothing, just pointing out he has not instilled any sense of confidence in me that he can rush at even a low level w/o getting his head taken off.

 

 

Yeah part of what Cooley-Sheehan were saying is take the chances because getting hurt isn't the be all and end all, its not the end of the world because Wentz right now is the back up.  Then Cooley paused and thought maybe that's a key reason why Heinicke isn't running because of Wentz comes in he could lose his job  -- so that makes the idea of a possible injury even more problematic for Taylor.

 

But yeah your point is similar to Logan Paulsen. Logan does think he should take off more on scrambles, etc but he also thinks Taylor isn't good at protecting himself on his runs -- doesn't have a good sense to time his slides, etc.

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

The guy who hasn’t seemed to waiver is Al Galdi.  He really loves TH and thinks arm strength stuff is over blown.  He acknowledges the passing game issues and they need to do better but somewhat(not entirely) gives TH a pass.

 

After the Giants game, he even said TH was more good than bad, and then quoted the 28.4 (or whatever it was) QBR and sortof poopooed it away.  I’m fact in one of Al’s rhyming keys, it was to TH to play well to avoid Ron going back to Wentz.  (I don’t remember the rhyme.  
 

Michael Phillips also said he sees no reason to see Wentz again.

 

I think If the offense is stuck in the mud the first half of the Giants game Ron makes the change at halftime.  I think he’s wanted to go back to Wentz ASAP because if you add even the threat of a deep PA shot to our run game, that’s better than what we have now.  But he can’t because of the Moxie Magic and you don’t mess with success.  
 

But I don’t think Ron is going to let TH lose this game.  If he’s struggling, I think he’s going to get benched.  
 

Hopefully he doesn’t struggle because that means we’re most likely winning.  And that would be nice.  

 

Wentz versus Heinicke to me is a different subject.

 

I am not even remotely high on Heinicke.  But that extends to Wentz, too.  Both IMO "meh".

 

I didn't take Sheehan-Cooley's point as Wentz > Heinicke.  I took it as its at least a conversation and if Heinicke has to come out, its not some disaster.  

[Die Hard]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Yeah part of what Cooley-Sheehan were saying is take the chances because getting hurt isn't the be all and end all, its not the end of the world because Wentz right now is the back up.  Then Cooley paused and thought maybe that's a key reason why Heinicke isn't running because of Wentz comes in he could lose his job  -- so that makes the idea of a possible injury even more problematic for Taylor.

 

But yeah your point is similar to Logan Paulsen. Logan does think he should take off more on scrambles, etc but he also thinks Taylor isn't good at protecting himself on his runs -- doesn't have a good sense to time his slides, etc.

Taylor Heinicke has 3 more games… and possibly any playoff games thereafter, at most, as the starter of this team. He won’t be the guy next year and he would be totally naive to believe otherwise.

 

So I have a hard time thinking that he is preserving himself and worried about losing his job to Wentz.

 

The guy needs to play like his hair is on fire for the rest of this season… this will be his NFL legacy. Every game is a playoff game now… lay it all on the line. He doesn’t need to cross the finish line… this team isn’t winning a Super Bowl this year anyways.

[Skinsinparadise]

Meanwhile I am watching a team that has an inept offense, the Colts, put a beating on the Vikings right now.  Granted much of it is about turnovers.  Blocked punt, etc.  

 

But Matt Ryan has looked sharp against that defense so far.

 

If we make the playoffs that's the team I'd like to face.  And Heinicke would need to step up against them -- in the 2nd half of the season the Vikings defense has looked like our defenses back in the day under Joe Barry and I believe the only dude to struggle against them was Heinicke.

 

The game is still young but so far so good for the Colts offense. 

 

 

6 minutes ago, Die Hard said:

Taylor Heinicke has 3 more games… and possibly any playoff games thereafter, at most, as the starter of this team. He won’t be the guy next year and he would be totally naive to believe otherwise.

 

So I have a hard time thinking that he is preserving himself and worried about losing his job to Wentz.

 

The guy needs to play like his hair is on fire for the rest of this season… this will be his NFL legacy. Every game is a playoff game now… lay it all on the line. He doesn’t need to cross the finish line… this team isn’t winning a Super Bowl this year anyways.

 

I guess no way to know what he's thinking.   Cooley is guessing like we all are.

 

But agree he needs to play with his hair on fire -- play like that Tampa playoff game or the Atlanta-NY games from last year.   

Edited December 17, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I don’t think Heinicke is preserving himself to be a future starter.  He’s preserving himself because he’s a free agent and an injury would leave him on the outside looking in to the NFL again.

[CommanderCarson]

47 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I don’t think Heinicke is preserving himself to be a future starter.  He’s preserving himself because he’s a free agent and an injury would leave him on the outside looking in to the NFL again.

Heineke has secured a spot in the NFL as a backup for as long as he’d like. There’s no way no how he’s not at least the number 3 emergency QB going forward for some team, unless the injury is so severe that it’s career threatening. 

I’m watching Kirk Cousins throw up an absolute stinker. The guy is a total fraud and he’s being exposed for what he is again.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

16 minutes ago, CommanderCarson said:

Heineke has secured a spot in the NFL as a backup for as long as he’d like. There’s no way no how he’s not at least the number 3 emergency QB going forward for some team, unless the injury is so severe that it’s career threatening. 

I’m watching Kirk Cousins throw up an absolute stinker. The guy is a total fraud and he’s being exposed for what he is again.

You finally outed yourself for sure now.

[CommanderCarson]

1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

You finally outed yourself for sure now.

I have no idea what this means?

 

Ive always thought Kirk Cousins was someone that if you could move off his spot, he’s a goner. Today that proved true again. Just to be clear id take him over heineke in a nano second. But that’s setting a low bar.

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

Serious question. Why wouldn't this work with TH for next year (if a legit FA-QB doesn't fall into our laps in the draft). TH is CHEAP...use that money for FA's and draft to get some *Monster* TE's and OL for 2023 and KEEP this strategy for 1 more year. Try and develop Howell or even Carson next year. Spending that much cap space for anther FA QB with no OLine just doesn't add much to the win column.

 

I'm OK with smash mouth football if you have the tools AND the DEFENSE. TH will allow us to keep the band together on D.

 

What say you experts? Please, no flames, just want to hear some logic against..

 

Many THX

 

 

[NoCalMike]

The problem is Heinicke is a QB2 and his ceiling is also that, and some of the fans and even media are holding onto hope that he is going to suddenly develop into something else with more reps. Now you can point to our specific circumstances, mainly O-line, as to why Rivera might be giving Heinicke a longer leash, but to me it is just not even a debate, argument, or conversation about who is the better QB if the O-line was capable of any kind of pass protection consistently.   

 

In fact, I am surprised at how seemingly surprised some of this fan base would be if Heinicke got benched.  

 

I still think the coaches view Wentz as the better QB, but they are between a rock & a hard place because the team is winning despite the poor QB play, but last game against the Giants they teetered so close to the QB play (not saying that is the only reason) causing a loss that I think it is absurd that so many folks find it out of the question that they would go back to Wentz assuming they thought the O-line was better suited to protect. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Listening to Jay Gruden on a podcast, he's harping on the same thing that Paulsen and Cooley did which is they need to do a better job at calling protections. 

[MrJL]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

B. Like Paulsen he thinks part of the problem with this team's pass protection is they don't readjust their protections well presnap.  They (more so Paulsen) seem to hint its on the center and the QB.

 

 

 

well, we have had four different centers and two different QBs

[FootballZombie]

22 minutes ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

What say you experts? Please, no flames, just want to hear some logic against..

 

No team is going to willingly roll out a QB that provides nothing when they have access to an entire offseason and the options that brings, even if you run an observably rushing predicated O. That is simply giving up an avenue to hurt an opponent, and a major one at that.

 

Even if your gonna be like the Titans, where everything goes thru the RBs, you still gotta invest in someone who can do something passing the ball like Tanny.

 

If you fully lean into the run, you gotta have that dynamic running threat at QB like Jackson or Fields. The 9ers saw this and went after Lance, and still had competent passing to fall back on in Jimmy G.

 

Other high run rate teams follow a similar formula. ATL started the year w/ Mariotta, Phi has Hurts. Even if you were not confident in their ability to pass, there was no reason to doubt their abilities to produce on the ground.

 

No team in the NFL outside of injury will sit around all offseason and punt on the idea of getting something out of the QB position. If you cant get that competent passer, you'll get a guy who can run and over his span of play TH has proven he can be neither of those guys so he won't be an option to start for anybody.

 

We have seen it play out here the last 2 offseasons with Fitz and Wentz. You gotta have a guy in the fold where you can project some form of production.

[Koolblue13]

24 minutes ago, MrJL said:

 

well, we have had four different centers and two different QBs

That has been the biggest issue this year. Center is really important in our system.