The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[zCommander]

43 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I'm not sure why some people keep thinking of Heinicke in terms of evolving and changing his game. The dude is almost 30 years old and has been in the NFL since 2015. He is who he is. 

 

 

Except he started in 15.75 of games last year which he hadn't done at all prior to that. So to him the evolution started last year and continues to this year. Regardless of age. 

[mistertim]

15 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Except he started in 15.75 of games last year which he hadn't done at all prior to that. So to him the evolution started last year and continues to this year. Regardless of age. 

 

What exactly has evolved? He's basically the same QB he was last year, though now he uses his legs even less than last season.

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

What exactly has evolved? He's basically the same QB he was last year, though now he uses his legs even less than last season.

 

Well that would be called evolution then lol

It doesn't matter in which direction you go to. To you not using his legs more is not evolved. To him being more of a pocket passer is an evolution to his game. Whether you like it or not doesn't really matter.

 

Btw, whether I agree with what TH is doing is irrelevant. If he wants to do more pocket stuff and believes on that then that is his to live and own by it. We all make decisions and not all are failures or successes.

 

Edited December 14, 2022 by zCommander

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

14 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Well that would be called evolution then lol

It doesn't matter in which direction you go to. To you not using his legs more is not evolved. To him being more of a pocket passer is an evolution to his game. Whether you like it or not doesn't really matter.

 

Btw, whether I agree with what TH is doing is irrelevant. If he wants to do more pocket stuff and believes on that then that is his to live and own by it. We all make decisions and not all are failures or successes.

 

Is this your passive aggressive way of saying that you think it’s stupid also, but refuse to criticize?

[Koolblue13]

14 minutes ago, zCommander said:

If he wants to do more pocket stuff 

 

I feel like you're finally cooling off on the Heini Hype.

 

Quoted that because it made me chuckle like a child.

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, zCommander said:

 

Well that would be called evolution then lol

It doesn't matter in which direction you go to. To you not using his legs more is not evolved. To him being more of a pocket passer is an evolution to his game. Whether you like it or not doesn't really matter.

 

Btw, whether I agree with what TH is doing is irrelevant. If he wants to do more pocket stuff and believes on that then that is his to live and own by it. We all make decisions and not all are failures or successes.

 

 

I suppose you're semantically correct, in the same way as me cutting my hands off would technically be an "evolution" in my ability to pick things up.

 

Though when I think of "evolution" I generally think of improvements and/or moving forward, not moving backward. Heinicke's legs were the main thing that set him apart and gave him a bit of an advantage. Now he's trying to be a pure pocket passer but doesn't really have the tools to do it at a high level.

 

As far as doing more pocket stuff, I agree that what I think or you think is irrelevant. But what the coaches think isn't, and they clearly wanted him to use his legs more last season. Maybe they've cooled off a bit on that since we can now more or less successfully run the ball almost 40 times per game.

Edited December 15, 2022 by mistertim

[HogsVa7]

We were 2-4 with Wentz. With Heinieke we are 5-1-1. Look at our offense with Wentz the first six weeks. First two games we scored points and I believe he threw two picks against Jacksonville. The second game of playing the Lions of what I can remember our offense caught on late but got shut out early and couldn't do anything. Then look at the Eagles game eight points and got sacked like nine times . The Dallas game 10 points. Titans game seventeen points, but threw a pick to win it at the end. The Bears game twelve points. Then he gets hurt and Heinieke starts and then all of a sudden you see a spark in this team. We go on a winning streak and are in playoff contention. We beat the Eagles at the Eagles on MNF for goodness sake. If Wentz started that game we darn know we won't win that game. Heinieke might have less arm strength than Wentz and we all know that, but Heinieke knows this system in and out and has great chemistry with his WRS's. That's why he has given up less sacks. If you want Wentz in fine, but I don't see him playing again unless Heinieke gets hurt. If Wentz has to come in Ill be rooting for him, but get ready for flashbacks when he was overthrowing five yard passes and ten yard passes and taking sacks. We all know if Wentz had to start every game this year we wouldn't even come close to playoff contention. 

[88Comrade2000]

2 hours ago, zCommander said:

 

Except he started in 15.75 of games last year which he hadn't done at all prior to that. So to him the evolution started last year and continues to this year. Regardless of age. 

Regardless, the coach will still look to find someone else at qb in 23.

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, HogsVa7 said:

We were 2-4 with Wentz. With Heinieke we are 5-1-1. Look at our offense with Wentz the first six weeks. First two games we scored points and I believe he threw two picks against Jacksonville. The second game of playing the Lions of what I can remember our offense caught on late but got shut out early and couldn't do anything. Then look at the Eagles game eight points and got sacked like nine times . The Dallas game 10 points. Titans game seventeen points, but threw a pick to win it at the end. The Bears game twelve points. Then he gets hurt and Heinieke starts and then all of a sudden you see a spark in this team. We go on a winning streak and are in playoff contention. We beat the Eagles at the Eagles on MNF for goodness sake. If Wentz started that game we darn know we won't win that game. Heinieke might have less arm strength than Wentz and we all know that, but Heinieke knows this system in and out and has great chemistry with his WRS's. That's why he has given up less sacks. If you want Wentz in fine, but I don't see him playing again unless Heinieke gets hurt. If Wentz has to come in Ill be rooting for him, but get ready for flashbacks when he was overthrowing five yard passes and ten yard passes and taking sacks. We all know if Wentz had to start every game this year we wouldn't even come close to playoff contention. 

 

No doubt Wentz would probably still take more sacks than Heinicke since he doesn't have TH's escapability. However, Wentz also has the arm to threaten the whole field, which Heinicke lacks and which means teams can cheat up and play short vs TH.

 

If you have a running game that's working and a QB who can stretch the field, that potentially opens the offense up for deep shots off of play action, and teams have to respect that.

 

I'm not saying I want Wentz in one way or the other. At this point I honestly don't care that much as I don't think either Wentz or Heinicke is the guy, though I can understand Ron sticking with the "hot hand" so to speak. I'm just saying everyone is assuming we'd be worse with Wentz now because of his shortcomings, but they also don't take into account his attributes. He might come in and stink it up, he might come in and play well. Who knows.

[zCommander]

2 hours ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

Regardless, the coach will still look to find someone else at qb in 23.

 

Which has nothing to do with his own evolution. I would like Howell to be the QB in 23. Been saying we need our own franchise guy in 23. Really like to rule out Howell first though. If Howell is not the guy then 24 it is. Just tired of retreads at his point. 

 

Edited December 15, 2022 by zCommander

[SkinsFTW]

44 minutes ago, mistertim said:

He might come in and stink it up, he might come in and play well. Who knows.

 

 

He will probably do both but it won't equal the consistent winning the team has had the past 2 months. 

 

Heineke and his consistent bottom 10 of 32 Qb play is superior to Wince playing top 15qb one week and then put up no points the next. Especially for the playoffs, not that anybody expects Heineke to win playoff games 

[wit33]

5 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

I'm not sure why some people keep thinking of Heinicke in terms of evolving and changing his game. The dude is almost 30 years old and has been in the NFL since 2015. He is who he is. 
 

 

There’s no question he has decided to operate from the pocket and has managed maintain a level of competence. He’s removed self from playing hero ball and abandoning the pocket consistently.  Certainly could say this has been detrimental to his game, I actually feel it has. 
 

In my view he has evolved to being able to do more from the pocket. Not saying he’s been good, more like below average to sometimes average.
 

Everything is off table when games on the line, he becomes Mahomes and I won’t let anyone talk me out of it lol

 

5 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

I'm not trying to beat you up about this specifically, but this sort of sentiment of "Heinicke's game is evolving" or things along those lines seem to make the rounds every so often. It was the same with the myth of him improving his arm strength over this past offseason, which clearly had basically no effect (just like it had non when Colt McCoy  supposedly did the same thing).

I totally get it, I’m just observing what I see and sharing. When I say evolving, I don’t mean he’s gotten better necessarily since the Tampa playoff game, just that he’s better from in the pocket presently than he was 2 years ago. 
 

My last hope for the dude to become a cheap average QB is that returns to his previous inclinations as a football (utilizing legs consistently) and combines it with improved ability in the pocket. Full disclosure, I believe he’s below average from within the pocket. 
 

Throw this all out if chips are on the table, he then becomes Josh Allen  Insert any hall of fame name you’d like and that’s what he becomes— a hall of famer

[El Mexican]

7 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

What exactly has evolved? He's basically the same QB he was last year, though now he uses his legs even less than last season.

 

Dude is winning more games.

 

That's the only evolution that's relevant here.

[88Comrade2000]

3 hours ago, zCommander said:

 

Which has nothing to do with his own evolution. I would like Howell to be the QB in 23. Been saying we need our own franchise guy in 23. Really like to rule out Howell first though. If Howell is not the guy then 24 it is. Just tired of retreads at his point. 

 

Ron has to win in 23, he’s going knowwhere with Sam.

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, El Mexican said:

 

Dude is winning more games.

 

That's the only evolution that's relevant here.

 

Dude is playing on a team with a top 5 rushing attack and a top 3 defense where we're running the ball almost 40 times per game. Heinicke isn't asked to do much besides not make too many mistakes. He's not the main reason we won those games.

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

Ron has to win in 23, he’s going knowwhere with Sam.

 

Nowhere? Are you on the field watching Sam to know this is a FACT? Please enlighten us all knowing lol

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, zCommander said:

 

Nowhere? Are you on the field watching Sam to know this is a FACT? Please enlighten us all knowing lol

The opposite of everything he says tends to happen, so it's good news.

[KDawg]

4 hours ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

Ron has to win in 23, he’s going knowwhere with Sam.

 

 The sharpest of football minds speak, we all listen. 

[Skinsinparadise]

12 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

There’s no question he has decided to operate from the pocket and has managed maintain a level of competence. He’s removed self from playing hero ball and abandoning the pocket consistently.  Certainly could say this has been detrimental to his game, I actually feel it has. 
 

In my view he has evolved to being able to do more from the pocket. Not saying he’s been good, more like below average to sometimes average.
 

Everything is off table when games on the line, he becomes Mahomes and I won’t let anyone talk me out of it lol

 

 

Scott Turner says all the time he doesn't want to limit Taylor on anything and just wants Taylor to be Taylor.  

 

So i think the breaks on Taylor's style specifically as to running is self imposed.  Taylor has talked about his conversations with his Old Dominion coach who told him the main thing holding back his career has been his durabilty.  Between that and other things he's said I get the strong impression that he knows his career will make or break by his ability to stay healthy. 

 

As for game managing, I think he's aware that he can't have all these dynamics in play at the same time.

 

A.  He doesn't throw the ball much

B.  He doesn't get the ball down the field much.

 

AND

 

C.  throws a lot of picks.

 

He doesn't make enough plays like his gunslinger idol Brett Favre to throw three picks and still win.  If you throw for 40 plus times and 350 yards and have 2 picks its not the end of the world typically.  But 180 yards and throwing the ball 20 and change times and throwing 2 picks is often a debacle. 

 

You can't be majoring in conservative throws on the first level, not pushing the ball down the field much with risky throws, not throwing the ball much, defenses oriented to stopping the run and not the pass AND you still throw a lot of picks.  The whole offense is oriented in part to limit Taylor's picks.   Be like limiting food to an overweight dude, load them up with rice cakes, no sugary foods to eat, yet they still put on 10 pounds -- that would be wild and unacceptable.  

 

Taylor seems to be a very self aware dude and understands his limitations.  I get not wanting to get hurt and I don't blame him to some extent.  But I also think not being willing to take that risk will also cement him as a backup.  Granted his contract year is this year so the goal might be simply to get that next contract. 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[goskins10]

11 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

There’s no question he has decided to operate from the pocket and has managed maintain a level of competence. He’s removed self from playing hero ball and abandoning the pocket consistently.  Certainly could say this has been detrimental to his game, I actually feel it has.  

 

LOL - No he decided after watching Alex Smith, Kyle Allen, Ryan Fitzpatrick, and Carson Wentz lose the job due to injury, not to mention his own issues with injury early in his career and in college he is applying self preservation. He is so limited by lack of an arm he cannot put such a critical part of the position on ice. He does not need to lead the team in rushing. But 4 to 6 well placed runs a game would take some pressure off the rest of the offense.  The coaches have pointed out their frustration with him on this. And it is not just hurting his game, it is hurting the entire offense which makes it selfish and self serving to a certain extent.

 

if the person coming back from injury were competent in any way my guess is TH would be back on the bench already. But Carson was so bad and continued to show the poor tendencies that plagued him at Philly and the Colts, not to mention the team is collecting Ws, the coaches have been reticent to pull the plug and with good reason. I believe one loss and he is done though. The question is who do you put in. Likely Carson but IMO that is a mistake. But from the coaches point of view better a guy who you at least know his weaknesses and can try to game plan around them, like they do with Taylor, than a complete unknown in terms of the NFL with the POs on the line. 

 

I would still start Howell but that's unlikely unless and until the team is eliminated from the POs. 

Edited December 15, 2022 by goskins10

[Chris 44]

On 10/20/2021 at 12:37 PM, Koolblue13 said:

We kind of have QB talk in every thread and it gets jumbled up and annoying. It's obviously the biggest missing piece on this team. 

 

How would you address the position moving forward. This year and next and down the road? 

983 pages later....and here we are. lol

[Koolblue13]

15 minutes ago, Chris 44 said:

983 pages later....and here we are. lol

Hey, I was able to lasso the QB talk into one place. It was mayhem before and infected every thread.

 

It's still an issue though. If only the Dan talk could live in his two threads.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Koolblue13

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

https://www.si.com/nfl/commanders/news/washington-commanders-qb-taylor-heinicke-massive-payday-free-agency?fbclid=IwAR2Cq3ZdaiJCfdQxO-X_yvrmYK1KfGjpmtxr5iVS4mzvrwWhrQhu_9gnoaQ
 

Aside from spotrac’s estimates that can be wildly off, this is the first bit of press I’ve seen making mention of a potential payday for Heinicke.

 

I’d imagine both his old ODU coach and even more-so, his agent, have been in his ear about the need to stay healthy to capitalize as a free agent.

 

It’s one of those things where yes - it’s selfish, but I can also understand how it’s this guys only opportunity to get his hands on generational wealth.  It’s easy to judge and say that I wouldn’t do that, because I’m not in that position.

 

All that aside, I still don’t expect a big payday for Taylor no matter how the team ends up.  Not from us, and nowhere else really.  I’ll eat the crow if that’s how it shakes out, but I suspect the market won’t be much, even if we head to the playoffs and steal a game.  The only possible way I could see that is if all the sudden he looks way better as a passer and starts scampering all over the field by foot.  Obviously, that’s incredibly unlikely to happen.

[Chris 44]

2 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Hey, I was able to lasso the QB talk into one place. It was mayhem before and infected every thread.

 

It's still an issue though. If only the Dan talk could live in his two threads.

Thinking we crest the 1000 page mark this weekend.

[FootballZombie]

6 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

All that aside, I still don’t expect a big payday for Taylor no matter how the team ends up.  Not from us, and nowhere else really.  I’ll eat the crow if that’s how it shakes out, but I suspect the market won’t be much, even if we head to the playoffs and steal a game.  The only possible way I could see that is if all the sudden he looks way better as a passer and starts scampering all over the field by foot.  Obviously, that’s incredibly unlikely to happen.

 

That article goes through the rationale that someone will offer TH a starting role next year, which equates to big $$$.

 

 

I don't see any team in the NFL offering TH a starting position. I don't think he gets signed to even be part of a realistic QB competition. His best outcome outside of the competition getting hurt will be as a backup somewhere or across from a high asset cost vet or rookie who is either inked in as the starter due to cost discrepancy, or its only a matter of time until they are handed the job. His next contract will not be large, no mater where it comes from. He has not done enough to earn any form of payday.

 

Teams will not line up to sign an inaccurate QB w/ a history of terrible production and no physical upside. You can get something that at least fulfills one of those variables for practically nothing and come out ahead.