The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[skinsfan93]

Guys, 

 

We have seen this story before haven’t we? Taylor is gritty tough and passionate. He will and has won some exciting games for us. However he has limitations and is not a franchise qb. Obviously Wentz hasn’t played well so far but we need to see if he can be the guy don’t we?  
 

Sure Howell or someone we draft could be the better way but then we are starting over again. Keep Heinicke in till Wentz is healthy. 

[Koolblue13]

[skinny21]

28 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

Got to give some credit to Heinicke, he definitely come across as a guy well worth a place on the roster.

For his personality/demeanor, and the way he plays with passion and yes, moxie.

 

But in this moment, I think even more importantly, what he offers is an example for Howell - both the good and the bad.  And honestly, because the majority of the “bad” relates to arm talent and accuracy, there’s a whole lot more “good” for Howell to learn from.  Making the right reads, executing proper drop backs, scrambling safely, etc.  Nothing against Wentz here, I just don’t think he was nearly as comfortable in the system as Heinicke is.  And I’m not referring to TH “teaching” Howell, but giving Howell the ability to match the film to the play design.

 

Anyway, love those 2 tweets above - the Halloween one and Taylor with his new Jordans on the table and that grin.  Happy for the dude for sure.

[dc1]

It's TH4's team to lose.

 

If the second half of last week's game is 'but a taste' of  what can be achieved by the team, then the season is well placed in his hands until he figuratively tossing the ball to someone else in the quarterback roster.  The TH synergy (whether you believe it or not) is effective and apparent.

 

I don't believe CW will not get us to the playoffs because of his limited mobility and associated offensive line play and gameplay.

 

59 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

But in this moment, I think even more importantly, what he offers is an example for Howell - both the good and the bad.

This is important and I agree 100%.

 

Lastly, Taylor actually know where Terry is on the field and looks for opportunities to throw to him... Folks, this isn't rocket science.  

[zCommander]

10 minutes ago, dc1 said:

Lastly, Taylor actually know where Terry is on the field and looks for opportunities to throw to him... Folks, this isn't rocket science.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dc1]

1 minute ago, zCommander said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

All jokes and hive thoughts aside.

 

This is good stuff and why we pull and engage with the teams that we support. Friendships, bonds, connections. 

 

Good stuff man. I love it.

 

I'm also at the bar having a mid week beverage 🍺.

[zCommander]

41 minutes ago, dc1 said:

All jokes and hive thoughts aside.

 

This is good stuff and why we pull and engage with the teams that we support. Friendships, bonds, connections. 

 

Good stuff man. I love it.

 

I'm also at the bar having a mid week beverage 🍺.

 

The players just love what he brings to the field. 

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by zCommander

[Est.1974]

Damn, TH getting some serious love from the locker room leaders. 

[wit33]

The players in the locker room would get banned and crucified in here for speaking as highly as they are about Heineke lol 

Edited October 27, 2022 by wit33

[UKskins]

On 10/25/2022 at 7:07 PM, NoCalMike said:

A back up QB's job is to win games while the starter is out.  This idea that because a back up does exactly that, that somehow the starter is no longer going to be the starter is wrong.  Now if the coaches look at the film and make the assessment that Wentz was incapable of doing certain things in similar situations as Heinicke, then that is different, but a win over the Packers is hardly going to be enough fuel for a QB controversy.

 

Totally get your sentiment but respectfully disagree. If your backup QB comes in and does his job when your starter is out, you're right he's doing his job. The controversy element comes from the fact that our starter QB wasn't doing HIS job and winning games when he was in. 

 

If Taylor keeps winning games and then Rivera goes right back to Wentz who has been nothing above putrid; for no better reason than "he is the starter", the fanbase will rightly be pissed and rightly want Ron's head when Carson continues to stink up the joint.

 

This is a results driven sport. More so than almost any other. If one guy gives you results, and the other one doesn't, you HAVE to keep Heinicke in. Especially when playing Wentz will cost us draft capital too bumping that 3rd into a 2nd.

 

I'm not arguing Heinicke is the second coming or anything like that - we all know his limitations (or at least the sane ones of us do), but we've already seen Carson's limitations are far bigger than Heinicke's in this offense. The main difference is Wentz's inadequacies are massively exaggerated by our terrible O-line making them far more costly whereas Heinicke's are not exaggerated by any other part of the team, they are what they are.

Edited October 27, 2022 by UKskins

[actorguy1]

Another issue seems to be Turner's scheme and how long it takes to be at least competent at it. Heineke has multiple seasons in it and runs it as well as his physical gifts allow him to. As JP Finlay pointed out, this is the first season Wentz has had a new scheme to learn (Reich being from the Eagles). This is not an excuse for Wentz, but an indictment on Turner's who can't get a QB ready to be competent quickly enough. What are they going to do next season if they draft a first round QB?

[FootballZombie]

8 minutes ago, UKskins said:

I'm not arguing Heinicke is the second coming or anything like that - we all know his limitations (or at least the sane ones of us do), but we've already seen Carson's limitations are far bigger than Heinicke's in this offense. The main difference is Wentz's inadequacies are massively exaggerated by our terrible O-line making them far more costly whereas Heinicke's are not exaggerated by any other part of the team, they are what they are.

 

Bit of the game-managers-fallacy there.

I don't think Wentz limitations in this O have been shown to be worse that THs, as they are not being asked to run the same offense.

TH is not being relied on to do nearly as much work as Wentz was and it allows you to lean on the other components of a team more heavily. These very components are ones that should have been much more featured then they were previously even when Wentz was in.

 

 

I didn't think it was a prudent direction, but when Wentz was starting he was asked to carry the team and be its catalyst. He had far more responsibility and weight on his shoulders over an extended period than any QB in our O in like the last 5 years. He preformed very poorly in that role. The slight flashes of good play were absolutely buried under the rest of his performance. We were not good enough in this pathway to even reliably stay in games and make them competitive.

 

 

From what we have seen from TH in the past season and vs the Packers, he is not the catalyst of our O, by coaches design. When he is our QB we become one of the most rushing predicated offenses in the NFL. As such TH's role in our O is not the same as Wentz's. Its comparing a game manager, who has the ball taken out of his hands to a QB who is asked to put the O on his back. They have been tasked with incredibly different jobs.

 

 

When it comes to TH starting, our offensive philosophy's is about as close as a 180 from when Wentz starting as you can get. When you have an Oline that can't block, an O-Cord that has never successfully fielded even a decent passing O, a QB who has been shown to struggle in this playstyle in recent years with league-low proven production from the pass catchers, its no small wonder that the O philosophy that allows the O-line to do easier blocking assignments(more rushing), has the O-Cord utilizing a field where he has had the majority of his success (rushing offense) and focus on a unit with more proven production(RBs) actually leads to better returns.

 

It turns out a team playing to its strengths is better than a team trying to be something its not. Go figure. I don't care if the desired direction is trying to emulate what the best teams are doing, its hard enough to win in the NFL doing what your good at, let alone playing w/ an arm tied behind your back to do something your bad at.

 

 

This is much more of a case of putting the vast majority of our O in the best position to succeed more than anything else.

[Renegade7]

Nervous AF about this build up for Taylor like last year didn't happen.

 

The higher the pedestal, the higher that terminal velocity gone be when he eventually comes crashing back to earth.

 

Be fair and be consistent, could come as soon as two weeks against Philly and it would be totally understandable, so please don't act brand new.

 

Im still in the "he's a backup and play Wentz when he's healthy" camp, he's not gonna be here next year and Wentz needs to get used to the offense since he is. 

 

Trying to avoid what I did last year and let my emotions eventually crack and believe something that jus wasn't real because it was a good story. Don't ask me what will change my mind because we did that rodeo last year, I'm not gonna ask him to fill an order I know he can't fill then get mad at him for it, is what it is.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

46 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Nervous AF about this build up for Taylor like last year didn't happen

After the Falcons game last season, it was also Heinicke mania.  Beer sponsors, tons of media exposure and love, same from guys in the locker room.  
 

Most everybody was all in on him until they weren’t.

[UKskins]

1 hour ago, FootballZombie said:

It turns out a team playing to its strengths is better than a team trying to be something its not. Go figure. I don't care if the desired direction is trying to emulate what the best teams are doing, its hard enough to win in the NFL doing what your good at, let alone playing w/ an arm tied behind your back to do something your bad at.

 

 

This is much more of a case of putting the vast majority of our O in the best position to succeed more than anything else.

This is kind of what I was getting at, but maybe didn't phrase it properly.

 

Wentz with this group of Offensive personnel, and this O-cord and playbook, is not as effective as Heinicke was the point I was trying to get across. You have to put yourself in a position to win by playing to strengths rather than forcing Wentz to try and do it all when he's a statue and our line is weak. I think we're on the same page, you just phrase it better than me! 😅

57 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Im still in the "he's a backup and play Wentz when he's healthy" camp, he's not gonna be here next year and Wentz needs to get used to the offense since he is. 

Wentz is basically only under contract for this year and has played like a scrub on a ~$30million contract. We can cut him with zero dead cap at the end of the season.... I don't understand why you think he's here next year?

[goskins10]

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

Nervous AF about this build up for Taylor like last year didn't happen.

 

The higher the pedestal, the higher that terminal velocity gone be when he eventually comes crashing back to earth.

 

Be fair and be consistent, could come as soon as two weeks against Philly and it would be totally understandable, so please don't act brand new.

 

Im still in the "he's a backup and play Wentz when he's healthy" camp, he's not gonna be here next year and Wentz needs to get used to the offense since he is. 

 

Trying to avoid what I did last year and let my emotions eventually crack and believe something that jus wasn't real because it was a good story. Don't ask me what will change my mind because we did that rodeo last year, I'm not gonna ask him to fill an order I know he can't fill then get mad at him for it, is what it is.

 

Wentz better not be on this roster next year. Being able to get out of his contract if he was not the answer was the brightest point of the trade. And despite my hopes for him he is NOT the answer. And a few more weeks in the system is not changing that. Start TH or Howell or virtually anyone but Wentz the rest of the season. Kick him to the curb and look for your QB1.

 

I would give Howell a chance unless TH keeps winning - which I highly doubt. I expect TH to come back to earth in the next few games. Maybe not against the Colts but soon after. When he does, let Howell get a shot. It's unlikely he is the answer either but at least get him some live NFL reps. Then you know where you are headed into the offseason.

 

But Carson Wentz should not be any part of the Washington plans moving forward. I would make him game day inactive when he returns from IR. Probably not what will happen but it is what I would do. 

[Koolblue13]

There's no reason that Howell isn't being named the starter, unless they think this season can still be salvaged which is wild.

[zCommander]

3 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

There's no reason that Howell isn't being named the starter, unless they think this season can still be salvaged which is wild.

 

NFC in total is bad this year and because of that we are only 1/2 game behind from a wild card spot. Not wild at all. 

[Koolblue13]

10 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

NFC in total is bad this year and because of that we are only 1/2 game behind from a wild card spot. Not wild at all. 

We're 1/2 a game out of the playoffs with half the teams in the NFC. we have clear weaknesses and not going anywhere. We're also firmly 4rth in the East.

 

If Sweat and Payne aren't long term players, trade them now. Get anything you can for WJIII.

[Professor_Nutter_Butter]

14 hours ago, zCommander said:

 

The players just love what he brings to the field. 

 

Ooooo Wentz is not going to like this.

[Renegade7]

1 hour ago, UKskins said:

 

Wentz is basically only under contract for this year and has played like a scrub on a ~$30million contract. We can cut him with zero dead cap at the end of the season.... I don't understand why you think he's here next year?

 

1 hour ago, goskins10 said:

 

Wentz better not be on this roster next year. Being able to get out of his contract if he was not the answer was the brightest point of the trade. And despite my hopes for him he is NOT the answer. And a few more weeks in the system is not changing that. Start TH or Howell or virtually anyone but Wentz the rest of the season. Kick him to the curb and look for your QB1.

 

I would give Howell a chance unless TH keeps winning - which I highly doubt. I expect TH to come back to earth in the next few games. Maybe not against the Colts but soon after. When he does, let Howell get a shot. It's unlikely he is the answer either but at least get him some live NFL reps. Then you know where you are headed into the offseason.

 

But Carson Wentz should not be any part of the Washington plans moving forward. I would make him game day inactive when he returns from IR. Probably not what will happen but it is what I would do. 

 

Wentz has the most upside talent wise of the current QBs on the roster and that contract can be restructured versus keeping as is now.

 

Howell isn't the answer, otherwise he wouldn't of been that low in the draft, don't get my hopes up.

 

It's really hard for me to jus right off Wentz after how poorly the team as whole was playing up until recently. Too many situations he jus didn't stand a chance and it limited his ability to make plays to make up for his inconsistencies we knew about going in.

 

They traded for him for a reason, not only his upside, but because they are too deep in from a years perspective to risk losing games developing a young or even rookie QB. 

 

They aren't drafting one in 2023 and risking missing the playoffs because of it, so if it isn't Wentz, how much support will there be to trade for someone else?  Who can they sign off the street that won't cause further vitriol from the fan base if it isn't Wentz?  Jimmy G? Another mediocre QB that will take too much of our cap and not actually be the answer at QB?

 

Wentz has to prove he's not the answer after IR now that team is playing better.  It's not abnormal for QBs to go through growing pains their first year in a new system especially when their OC sucks.

[samy316]

18 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

 

Wentz has the most upside talent wise of the current QBs on the roster and that contract can be restructured versus keeping as is now.

 

Howell isn't the answer, otherwise he wouldn't of been that low in the draft, don't get my hopes up.

 

It's really hard for me to jus right off Wentz after how poorly the team as whole was playing up until recently. Too many situations he jus didn't stand a chance and it limited his ability to make plays to make up for his inconsistencies we knew about going in.

 

They traded for him for a reason, not only his upside, but because they are too deep in from a years perspective to risk losing games developing a young or even rookie QB. 

 

They aren't drafting one in 2023 and risking missing the playoffs because of it, so if it isn't Wentz, how much support will there be to trade for someone else?  Who can they sign off the street that won't cause further vitriol from the fan base if it isn't Wentz?  Jimmy G? Another mediocre QB that will take too much of our cap and not actually be the answer at QB?

 

Wentz has to prove he's not the answer after IR now that team is playing better.  It's not abnormal for QBs to go through growing pains their first year in a new system especially when their OC sucks.

 

There are many reasons to NOT play Wentz when he recovers from his broken finger.  The 2nd Round pick we have to give up if he plays 70% of the snaps is still very real.  We also have seen Wentz now for 6 games, and he's just as inaccurate and immobile as he was hyped up to be by the media and the Eagles/Colts fans who warned us ahead of time.  Wentz is who he is, and he'll never get to that 2017 level.  He's too broken down physically, and too stubborn to learn from his faults.  I fully believe that we lose the game this past Sunday with Wentz at QB.  You can tell that the offense is thrilled to have somebody behind center who knows the offense, and can move around in the pocket when things break down.  If the team were smart, they would make Wentz inactive when he comes back from his injury.  There's no need to go back to him, and have him mess up the chemistry of the offense, and potentially mess up our draft position in the offseason.

 

If we win this coming Sunday, we're 4-4 with half the season left.  If we split the Vikings and Eagles games, then Wentz will become an afterthought since Heinicke is doing his job, and giving us wins that would've been losses under Wentz.

 

This Wentz trade is already a bust.  Just write it off, and let him go at the end of the season.

Edited October 27, 2022 by samy316

[goskins10]

28 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

 

Wentz has the most upside talent wise of the current QBs on the roster and that contract can be restructured versus keeping as is now.

 

Howell isn't the answer, otherwise he wouldn't of been that low in the draft, don't get my hopes up.

 

It's really hard for me to jus right off Wentz after how poorly the team as whole was playing up until recently. Too many situations he jus didn't stand a chance and it limited his ability to make plays to make up for his inconsistencies we knew about going in.

 

They traded for him for a reason, not only his upside, but because they are too deep in from a years perspective to risk losing games developing a young or even rookie QB. 

 

They aren't drafting one in 2023 and risking missing the playoffs because of it, so if it isn't Wentz, how much support will there be to trade for someone else?  Who can they sign off the street that won't cause further vitriol from the fan base if it isn't Wentz?  Jimmy G? Another mediocre QB that will take too much of our cap and not actually be the answer at QB?

 

Wentz has to prove he's not the answer after IR now that team is playing better.  It's not abnormal for QBs to go through growing pains their first year in a new system especially when their OC sucks.

 

If Wentz's issues were new or he was a rookie or even 2nd or 3rd yr player, I might agree with you. But his issues here are exactly what his issues have been his entire career at both Philly and then at the Colts. I do not want a restructured contract even if Carson would take one. And do you really want a guy you just you are not worth your contract leading tyour team 

 

And I wish people would stop saying categorically "Howell is not the answer" when you do not know. I agree it's unlikely but to just decide he is not the answer because of his draft position makes no sense. I agree, it's unlikely he is a legit QB1. But why write him off without even giving him snaps? And what better time than right now to give him snaps? 

 

As for 2023, your sarcasm in terms of the staff is simply you venting on the staff. And fair enough, it may be what they do. But we are talking about what should be done. And what should be done is kick Carson Wentz to the ****ing curb!! I would then like to see them play Howell. I mean they did draft him so if are not going to ever let him play - and what better time than now - then why draft him at all? 

 

I was supportive of giving Carson a try once the trade was made and seeing if he could overcome his issues. But he cannot. Again, his issues are EXACTLY what his issues have been since his first day back from injury several yrs ago. I could go throguh them but we all know what they are. He had a nice game 1 agaisnt Jacksonville. Since then it's mostly ****. A lackluster win agaisnt a really bad Chicago team is not exactly awe inspiring. 

 

Play TH until he starts struggling. I think that will be by gm 3 or 4 but who knows. If he does struggle, or even if he is playing well but the team is losing, give Howell a shot so you know what you need to do in the next draft. 

 

Again this is what I think they SHOULD do, not what I think they will do. 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

We're 1/2 a game out of the playoffs with half the teams in the NFC. we have clear weaknesses and not going anywhere. We're also firmly 4rth in the East.

 

If Sweat and Payne aren't long term players, trade them now. Get anything you can for WJIII.

 

I actually think the season can be salvaged but whether I want it to be is a different story.  As I said back when we were 1-4 -- this doomsday the season shot narrative also existed the previous two seasons.  But Rivera's teams are notorious for these wretched starts and then they start winning.  If I recall if they win against Indy and two other things go their way they are already in the wildcard spot for now.  

 

The NFC sucks this year.  And our schedule isn't hard.  And reinforcements coming with Chase, Dotson. 

 

This Indy game is a major wildcard IMO, if they win they are certainly in the hunt.  If they lose IMO the odds don't look hot.  Real X factor game IMO.

 

The optimism would be the defense seems to finally leaving up to their hype.  With all the doom and gloom, there are some things that worked out.  The shedding of Settle and Ionnaidis and replacing the two with Obada and more playing time for Wise is a net positive.  their pass rush is ferocious without Chase.  Run stopping has been really good of late, too.  Holcomb playing better, Jamin Davis coming on.  Curl and Forrest are PFF's top safety tandem.  St. Juste and Wildgoose >>> Danny Johnson, William Jackson.

 

A lot to like IMO on defense.  Issue is QB and O line.  But I think the defense will make them competitive.  Even versus the Eagles, the defense looked good for awhile and then got torched for a quarter after 3 and out after 3 and out from the offense.  Imagine this defense if they had a complementary offense?

 

The problem with this team IMO is QB, LG, C, and to some extent RG.     But they have some building blocks in other spots. 

Edited October 27, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I actually think the season can be salvaged but whether I want it to be, is a different story.  As I said back when we were 1-4 -- this doomsday the season shot narrative also existed the previous two seasons.  But Rivera's team are notorious for that and then they start winning.  If I recall they win against Indy and two other things go their way they are in line for a wildcard.  

 

The NFC sucks this year.  And our schedule isn't hard.  And reinforcements coming with Chase, Dotson. 

 

This Indy game is a major wildcard IMO, if they win they are certainly in the hunt.  If they lose IMO the odds don't look hot.  Real X factor game IMO.

 

The optimism would be the defense seems to finally leaving up to their hype.  With all the doom and gloom, there are some things that worked out.  The shedding of Settle and Ionnadis and replacing the two with Obada and more playing time for Wise is a net positive.  their pass rush is ferocious without Chase.  Run stopping has been really good of late, too.  Holcomb playing better, Jamin Davis coming on.  Curl and Forrest are PFF's top safety tandem.  St. Juste and Wildgoose >>> Danny Johnson, William Jackson.

 

A lot to like IMO on defense.  Issue is QB and O line.  But I think the defense will make them compettive.  Even versus the Eagles, the defense looked good for awhile and then got torched for a quarter after 3 and out after 3 and out.  Imagine this defense if they had a complementary offense?

 

The problem with this team IMO is QB, LG, C, and to some extent RG.     But they have some building blocks in other spots. 

I agree and kind of made the same point. If you think we are going to make a legit run this year, that's fine. 

 

If you are not going to make a run this year and those guys are not in your long term plans, get capital for them.