The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Voice_of_Reason]

29 minutes ago, zCommander said:

This is why Ron went with an upgrade at QB since that is the missing piece that we needed to go over the hump. If TH can do what he did with what we had last year then this year has to be double digits and deep playoff run at the least. Y

This is the false narrative.  Ron didn’t upgrade to get the team over the hump.  There was no upgrade because they had no QB. The starter was Fitz and he wasn’t  coming back.  TH can’t play at an NFL starter level and everybody knows that.  Everybody knew that when he didn’t do anything to come close to pushing Fitz in the off season last year.  He never got an opportunity to compete for the starting job because he never showed enough to warrant a competition.   Then he played and proved he couldn’t be an NFL starter. 

 

It wasn’t Ron that said “We can  do better than Taylor.” He said “We need a QB because we don’t have one on the roster.” 
 

I remove TH entirely from the equation as if he didn’t exist last year. The team had to adjust the entire offense around what TH could do.  We have no idea what the team can do with a legitimate starting QB.

 

We believe they should be better.  But there are a bunch of unknowns as well: can the OL repeat its performance form last year? Can they solve the defensive issues?  Will Samuel contribute anything? Etc.

 

To just throw it out there that Ronnie going all in because they got a middle of the road QB since they didn’t have a starting QB on the roster feels like you’re setting up the “TH could have absolutely done as well” posts during the season if they don’t realize your ridiculous goals. 

[CjSuAvE22]

4 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

I remove TH entirely from the equation as if he didn’t exist last year. The team had to adjust the entire offense around what TH could do.  We have no idea what the team can do with a legitimate starting QB.

 

 

I agree 100 percent, however losing Flowers and Scherff scares me a little, im hoping we can add a couple more pieces to the offense through the draft. 

[Riggo#44]

Seriously **** Chris Russell. I really can't stand that fat, screaming, whiney putz. He's been ranting like thus all day.

 

No you fat lazy ****, every sensible intelligent human being takes these comments as a good thing--it was owner mandated. **** off.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, Fresh8686 said:

Not sure if this was posted or not, but it''s a pretty good eval of Carson.

 

 

I watched it. I get there is a connection between a QBs WR corp and their performance but as that video said it’s more pronounced with Wentz.

 

Hes pretty much had below average to bad WR corps in his career as far as rankings. The exception being 2017.

 

I was talking up in the draft thread about loading him up with more weapons but after watching that I am doubling down on that idea.

[RWJ]

52 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I watched it. I get there is a connection between a QBs WR corp and their performance but as that video said it’s more pronounced with Wentz.

 

Hes pretty much had below average to bad WR corps in his career as far as rankings. The exception being 2017.

 

I was talking up in the draft thread about loading him up with more weapons but after watching that I am doubling down on that idea.

Agreed, SIP.  That's why I think one of the Ohio St. WRs are their selection at #11 or after possibly a small trade down IF they can move down before Philly.  

[Fresh8686]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I watched it. I get there is a connection between a QBs WR corp and their performance but as that video said it’s more pronounced with Wentz.

 

Hes pretty much had below average to bad WR corps in his career as far as rankings. The exception being 2017.

 

I was talking up in the draft thread about loading him up with more weapons but after watching that I am doubling down on that idea.

Yup, get him weapons and protect him. He can reliably hit an open receiver from nearly any spot on the field as long as he isn’t rattled.
 

I think the draft talk from local reporters has shifted quite a bit to WR in the 1st or if we go with Lloyd in the first then WR in the 2nd. 
 

I also think they are betting heavily on the deep draft talent shaking some veterans free and their being less competition to sign them. They know their most successful signings last year were after the draft and it keeps their comp picks intact. 

[Conn]

Just a reminder that even the impeccable “doing it the right way” franchises struggle when they can’t get QB right.
 

There’s no guarantee that Wentz is the guy that allows Rivera to get it right, but somehow people still underestimate how much top tier QB play can change an entire franchise overnight and CREATE the stability and “culture” that people say top franchises need to succeed long term. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy, and even a team with a clown monster as the owner “just” (lol) needs to get QB right to build a winner. Especially when there are other pieces already in place.
 

Now we just need that top tier QB play.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Conn

[zCommander]

3 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

This is the false narrative.  Ron didn’t upgrade to get the team over the hump.  There was no upgrade because they had no QB. The starter was Fitz and he wasn’t  coming back.  TH can’t play at an NFL starter level and everybody knows that.  Everybody knew that when he didn’t do anything to come close to pushing Fitz in the off season last year.  He never got an opportunity to compete for the starting job because he never showed enough to warrant a competition.   Then he played and proved he couldn’t be an NFL starter. 

 

It wasn’t Ron that said “We can  do better than Taylor.” He said “We need a QB because we don’t have one on the roster.” 
 

I remove TH entirely from the equation as if he didn’t exist last year. The team had to adjust the entire offense around what TH could do.  We have no idea what the team can do with a legitimate starting QB.

 

We believe they should be better.  But there are a bunch of unknowns as well: can the OL repeat its performance form last year? Can they solve the defensive issues?  Will Samuel contribute anything? Etc.

 

To just throw it out there that Ronnie going all in because they got a middle of the road QB since they didn’t have a starting QB on the roster feels like you’re setting up the “TH could have absolutely done as well” posts during the season if they don’t realize your ridiculous goals. 

 

Your narrative is false as they come or maybe you have a short-term memory. The GM said we love TH but we need to upgrade that position. So you saying there was nothing to upgrade is false in your part or you think the GM is lying and doesn't know anything about football!

 

You can't remove TH from last year since they were able to see what the offense can do, like protecting the QB, the run game, the slants and so on, and then you build on it or improve with Wentz where TH was deficient.

 

What I find more ridiculous is you constantly twisting or adding words to what I have actually said to further you agenda instead and hate on TH instead. It doesn't matter if TH was a starting QB last year or not but he did start 16 games and Allen wasn't even given the chance. The coaches obviously saw something and TH could run Turners offense better than Allen. Yeah, TH couldn't do some of the stuff that a so called strong arm QB can do. We will see how accurate Wentz is on his deep balls. The reason he was brought in the first place, to stretch the field. Really don't see how that can be misread as some ridiculous goals on my part. You obviously are not going to hold Wentz to a higher standard. Cool. I have a different and a higher standard than you do. 

 

[mistertim]

8 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Your narrative is false as they come or maybe you have a short-term memory. The GM said we love TH but we need to upgrade that position. So you saying there was nothing to upgrade is false in your part or you think the GM is lying and doesn't know anything about football!

 

You can't remove TH from last year since they were able to see what the offense can do, like protecting the QB, the run game, the slants and so on, and then you build on it or improve with Wentz where TH was deficient.

 

What I find more ridiculous is you constantly twisting or adding words to what I have actually said to further you agenda instead and hate on TH instead. It doesn't matter if TH was a starting QB last year or not but he did start 16 games and Allen wasn't even given the chance. The coaches obviously saw something and TH could run Turners offense better than Allen. Yeah, TH couldn't do some of the stuff that a so called strong arm QB can do. We will see how accurate Wentz is on his deep balls. The reason he was brought in the first place, to stretch the field. Really don't see how that can be misread as some ridiculous goals on my part. You obviously are not going to hold Wentz to a higher standard. Cool. I have a different and a higher standard than you do. 

 

 

There's a difference between "We really like this guy. He's a good dude and hard worker" and "We think this guy is a starting caliber NFL QB." The coaches and FO immediately and publicly announced that they basically needed a real QB after the season was over. 

 

I don't think they saw what the offense could do last season. What they saw was what happened if they couldn't actually run the full offense because their QB didn't have the talent.

 

And Taylor getting the nod over a hobbled Allen isn't exactly a ringing endorsement. That's basically like trying to decide between a moldy roast beef sandwich and a moldly turkey sandwich.

 

The reason Wentz was brought in was because he's shown that he can actually play QB in the NFL and we needed a starting caliber passer. Honestly, even just having a QB who can actually throw out routes and who doesn't hang his receivers out to get concussions with underthrown deep balls and high floaters over the middle all the time is a huge step forward. 

[zCommander]

4 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

So to be clear: if Wentz throws for 35 TDs and 10 INTs but the team doesn't make the playoffs, then Wentz is a bust with us? 

 

Yup. Style points don't count. Wins do. Do you really want someone like Kirk who would put up really good numbers but couldn't close the games?  Last year Wentz had 27 TD to 7 INT. **** the bed in the last two games and eliminated from the playoffs. Colts saw that as a bust. He lost to three teams that we beat last year. Seahawks, Raiders and the Bucs. 

[shemp nixon]

7 hours ago, TradeTheBeal! said:

Jim Irsay is a burned-out, loudmouth, new money loser.  And his daddy was even worse.

 

I like the trade more than ever now.

 

 

Ya left out pill popping drunk.😀

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, RWJ said:

Agreed, SIP.  That's why I think one of the Ohio St. WRs are their selection at #11 or after possibly a small trade down IF they can move down before Philly.  

 

I like Wilson and Olave.  I like Drake London even more, seems tailoed made to Wentz skills as for making plays on the 2nd level.  I wish Jamieson Williiams was healthy, he'd be my top guy if he were healthy, 

[Skinsinparadise]

10 hours ago, Riggo#44 said:

Seriously **** Chris Russell. I really can't stand that fat, screaming, whiney putz. He's been ranting like thus all day.=

'lol, I didn't listen to Russell yesterday but I have some about the issue.  He laid out Wentz as worst case scenario before they acquired him,  I've noticed him back off some off the trade but I gather Irsay's comments retriggered him.

 

To me Sheehan's been the worst.  He cherry picks information on it.   Distorts the takes of people who were on his own show talking about Wentz.  As obsessive as he was pushing Darnold as the solution to the Qb woes last year, he's even more obsessive that Wentz is a bad guy/bad QB.   

 

I like listening to Sheehan generally, i think he's a legend as far as local radio here but he's been unbearable and uncharacteristically imbalanced and dishonest on the issue.  

 

Most of the other local radio guys/reporters have backed off on their initial takes as new information has come in as to Wentz's personality and Irsay's role or at least have tempered their initial takes -- including even dudes that are typically stubborn with their opinions like Grant Paulsen. 

 

I do think @Voice_of_Reason is on to something though with Sheehan in that he's snapped some because of his hatred for Snyder hitting a breaking point and on that front i am sympathetic.  But I am thinking dude don't take it out on Wentz.    Take it out on Dan.  Sheehan likes Rivera and this seems to be purely a Rivera move for Wentz not a Dan move. 

Edited March 30, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

PFF guy on Sheehan's show, he doesn't dislike the Wentz deal, Sheehan seems disappointed.  

 

He's a big fan of this O line because in his view it doesn't have a weak link. 

 

 

 

[HigSkin]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I like Wilson and Olave.  I like Drake London even more, seems tailoed made to Wentz skills as for making plays on the 2nd level.  I wish Jamieson Williiams was healthy, he'd be my top guy if he were healthy, 

 

FWIW, Kiper on Get Up just said Jamieson probably won't be ready until Oct/Nov this year.  Sucks for him.

[cakmoney61]

30 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

 

FWIW, Kiper on Get Up just said Jamieson probably won't be ready until Oct/Nov this year.  Sucks for him.

I would not be upset at all if Washington traded down far enough to recoup a third-round pick then draft Williams if he was available.  I would be shocked if they did it but absolutely not upset.  IMO, he is the best WR in the draft.

Edited March 30, 2022 by cakmoney61
Added a sentence.

[mistertim]

8 hours ago, zCommander said:

 

Yup. Style points don't count. Wins do. Do you really want someone like Kirk who would put up really good numbers but couldn't close the games?  Last year Wentz had 27 TD to 7 INT. **** the bed in the last two games and eliminated from the playoffs. Colts saw that as a bust. He lost to three teams that we beat last year. Seahawks, Raiders and the Bucs. 

 

Ok. So if the QB is playing really well but the rest of the team sucks then the QB is a bust. Somehow I don't think you would take the same stance if it was Heinicke putting up those numbers with the rest of the team sucking.

 

In fact, when Heinicke was putting up ok but very mediocre numbers while the defense sucked during the first half of last season, the Hive was screaming at the top of its lungs that he was definitely the QB of the future and the losses had nothing to do with him so he shouldn't be blamed at all for not putting up better numbers.

Edited March 30, 2022 by mistertim

[Warhead36]

If Wentz throws 35 TD passes this team is competing for a #1 seed in the NFC. 

[Koolblue13]

24 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Ok. So if the QB is playing really well but the rest of the team sucks then the QB is a bust. Somehow I don't think you would take the same stance if it was Heinicke putting up those numbers with the rest of the team sucking.

 

In fact, when Heinicke was putting up ok but very mediocre numbers while the defense sucked during the first half of last season, the Hive was screaming at the top of its lungs that he was definitely the QB of the future and the losses had nothing to do with him so he shouldn't be blamed at all for not putting up better numbers.

I don't know why you still bother going down the Heini Hole with z.

 

This season, when he starts beating his chest every time Wentz throw an incompletion, I hope it finally starts to come off as trolling and gets banned. 

 

Because @zCommander your posts are just trolling at this point.

[Alexa]

no chance Wentz throws 35 td's. 

[Koolblue13]

3 minutes ago, Alexa said:

no chance Wentz throws 35 td's. 

He's thrown for 33 once and 27 twice and this is easily the best offense that he'll have ever been in. I think 35 is definitely pushing it. That would be incredible, but I wouldn't say no chance. Just long shot

[mistertim]

12 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

He's thrown for 33 once and 27 twice and this is easily the best offense that he'll have ever been in. I think 35 is definitely pushing it. That would be incredible, but I wouldn't say no chance. Just long shot

 

Yeah when I came up with that number I was trying to go for a ceiling but not an unrealistic one. If he were to get back to his 2017 form (not assuming he will, just for the sake of argument) then 35 TDs would be realistic as he had 33 in 13 games that season.

 

I'm only trying to check Z man's logic to find out if anything other than a SB would mean Wentz was worth it. But as you noted...it's probably not worth it because it's close to just being the Hive doing trolling at this point.

[Koolblue13]

2 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Yeah when I came up with that number I was trying to go for a ceiling but not an unrealistic one. If he were to get back to his 2017 form (not assuming he will, just for the sake of argument) then 35 TDs would be realistic as he had 33 in 13 games that season.

 

I'm only trying to check Z man's logic to find out if anything other than a SB would mean Wentz was worth it. But as you noted...it's probably not worth it because it's close to just being the Hive doing trolling at this point.

Well, if the defense would have stepped up when Heinicke was QB....

 

Well, we have so many more weapons than when Heinicke....

 

Turner is finally figuring out how to call plays better than when Heinicke....

 

It's no win. I decided a while ago I wasn't going to fall into his trolling BD any more and I've done alright.

[CommanderInTheRye]

Irsay goes off on Wentz.

 

Great motivation for Carson (as if he needed more). 

 

“No disrespect to Jacksonville, but I mean, they’re the worst team in the league. You play well and hard for the first quarter or so, and they’re looking to go to their locker room and clean it out. I’ve never seen anything like that in my life,” Irsay said. “You say, 'My God, there’s something wrong here.' It needs to be corrected. I think that we feel like we did.”

“Your guy’s gotta pick you up and carry you through Jacksonville,” Irsay said. "He has to do it. Not an option. Has to. No excuses, no explanations.”

 

 

Irsay: Wentz had issues with leadership

Not only did Wentz not carry the Colts through Jacksonville, he apparently also failed at showing leadership in the clubhouse, which Irsay discovered after speaking to several players.

 

“In having conversations with trusted veterans on the team, so to speak, when you speak to them in confidence, oftentimes they share really, what’s happening,” Irsay said. “What I found out was very concerning.”

 

And there's more. Irsay also mentioned that Wentz wouldn't change his playing style despite head coach Frank Reich and the coaching staff directing him to.

“You can’t always persuade people to do things differently if they don’t want to do them differently,” Irsay said. “You’re always trying to look at, in all areas of your team, where the coaches can come in and enhance and lift up a situation and make things better, but in the end, players are out there playing the game, and they’re going to play their game.”

 

 

Of course, with Wentz recently traded to the Washington Commanders, it's safe for Irsay to let it all out. And he was very complimentary of general manager Chris Ballard, who engineered the trade that sent Wentz to Washington in exchange for 2022 second- and third-round picks and a conditional third-round pick in 2023. Especially since it wasn't a given that a team would want to take Wentz and his increasingly large amount of baggage.

 

 

“I think it was really quite remarkable and a great tribute to Chris, to generate strong trade interest and get the deal done with Washington,” Irsay said. “I don’t lose the fact that it was a pretty big blessing from the football gods, where we were and where we could be if things don’t materialize to that level. You end up cutting Carson, and we’d get nothing.”

 

 

The Colts didn't get nothing, but it seems like they were willing to. Irsay was very firm that the organization needed to move on from Wentz.

 

“For us, the fit just wasn’t right,” Irsay said. “I don’t know why. A lot of times you don’t know why, but you know it isn’t, and it was important for us to move in a different direction.”

 

 

And the Colts definitely moved in a different direction, trading for longtime Atlanta Falcons QB Matt Ryan. As for Wentz, after Irsay thoroughly roasted him, he may not want to set foot in the city of Indianapolis ever again — which seems totally fine with Irsay.

Edited March 30, 2022 by CommanderInTheRye

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I’d like to say that I can’t believe I’ve returned to this thread only to find Heineke still being a topic of conversation, but I’m not surprised.  🤣

 

It’s abundantly clear that all this Wentz needs to be the savior, needs to win 14 games, go to the Super Bowl stuff is just advance posturing so z can say he’s not moving the goalposts next season when he poops all over Wentz performances that’s will still undoubtedly be better than anything Heineke is capable of.

Edited March 30, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome