The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Zim489]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

And you say this is the worst QB class, yet you want him to take a dude in the first round and not the 2nd but why? 

I want them to make the best % chance move. I dont care if its a bad class. Hes made his bed. I want him to sleep in it. Right now im rooting for "Please dont make the job unwantable for the next guy" scenarios which would be bypassing this class and then making a RG3 level move up just to have the team be bad in 2023 and Ron is fired before the lame duck 5th year of 2024. Ron's not going anywhere after this offseason unless they roll with Trubs and Taylor and they completely bottom out. Something Ron's teams have never done. He wins them more than their expected 5050 coin toss games against equal competition so instead of the 3 win team they are a 5 or 6 win team. I don't think hes a bad coach. He's an upper tier motivator and leader of men. I think his views on the game are totally boomer mode. He would be better suited for a Team President role where he has to hire an actual qualified GM unlike the other Legion of Boomers he put into place with terrible track records.

 

Right now I see zero shot of Ron ever fixing the mess that he created by trying to make that run in 2020 for the playoffs that ultimately could set the franchise back at least half a decade. It was the worst possible scenario to play out and it did. We have no future. We have no hope because theres no logical path to fix the QB spot with a possible elite talent while Ron is in place. 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Zim489

[KDawg]

1 hour ago, DJHJR86 said:

Signing Mitchell Trubisky and drafting Desmond Ridder will seal Rivera and Co.'s fate.  

I disagree. His fate is tied to not getting a QB last offseason. The bandaid this offseason is a symptom of that and not the root cause.

 

Also, Sam Howell is an option and should be taken seriously. I still can’t believe there’s only a handful of us that are beating that drum.

 

Do I think he’s a top end franchise level elite QB? No. But a VERY significant improvement for us and a QB that will be able to not hurt the team. Plus his rapport with Dyami Brown could make both of those picks worthwhile as they are going to push each other to succeed.

[Riggo#44]

3 minutes ago, RWJ said:

I think he'll be taken in the 1st round.  He is going to rise up draft board, IMO.  I believe he has a good Combine and Pro Day when he throws and goes through the drills.  

One of the things I keep reading about Ridder are his skintangibles, which are attractive. I just don't know about his accuracy, vision, decision making...

[Skinsinparadise]

17 minutes ago, RWJ said:

I would expect them to interview most of the named QBs in the draft. 

 

I think they will interview them all.

 

I spent a lot of time on all of these QBs.  I like really all 6 to some extent.  Don't love them.  I think all of them are worth rolling the dice on but I wouldn't bet my mortgage on any of them for different reasons. 

 

The only time I get negative on one of these guys is when someone pushes its THIS guy and not the other guys.  I could be wrong on this but if I have a hardcore opinion on this class its the top 6 prospects are pretty close to each other.  I don't think there is a dude that runs a mile ahead of the others. 

 

That's part of the reason why I get the logic of them being willing to do it in the 2nd round and take the best QB that's left.  Normally I hate that idea.  And I initially hated the idea months back.  But the more I digest these QBs, it makes sense at least with my logic.   And as @Thinking Skins in particular can attest to from some of our debates, I typically hate the idea of waiting to the 2nd round.  I throw out the bust rates outside the first all the time.  But drafts aren't one size fits all.  The context can change.  And i think this draft is uniquely different. 

 

All 6 of these guys have different strengths and weaknesses.  My favorite is Corral.  But I don't really have a strong argument against any of these guys.  My strongest argument is I don't think one is head and shoulders over the other with the exception of the argument of upside -- as for upside I think Willis has that cornered.  I'd be happy to have any one of these 6 guys -- not giddy happy but they all intrigue me for different reasons.

 

In 2019, as the draft got closer, I dreaded the idea of getting Haskins or Daniel Jones.  I don't dread any of these top 6.  If they take one of them, I bet I'll try to sell them and sell myself so to speak.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[RWJ]

1 minute ago, Zim489 said:

I want them to make the best % chance move. I dont care if its a bad class. Hes made his bed. I want him to sleep in it. Right now im rooting for "Please dont make the job unwantable for the next guy" scenarios which would be bypassing this class and then making a RG3 level move up just to have the team be bad in 2023 and Ron is fired before the lame duck 5th year of 2024. 

 

Right now I see zero shot of Ron ever fixing the mess that he created by trying to make that run in 2020 for the playoffs that ultimately could set the franchise back at least half a decade. It was the worst possible scenario to play out and it did. We have no future. We have no hope because theres no logical path to fix the QB spot with a possible elite talent while Ron is in place. 

I give RR and Co, this year to change things around.  If we see improvement in the team and their regular season record then he stays another year.  If we don't, I think, I said I think he should be replaced.  I know that @Skinsinparadise is going probably say who or notability if going to want to coach this team.  Joe Gibbs as he has done before will have Danny out again.    

[bowhunter]

If we can come out of the first 2 rounds with a QB, starting MLB, and BPA at FS, CB, WR then I think we'll be good. Possible Payne being dangled as a draft day trade to help us maneuver around in the day 1 and 2?? If FA QBs are not worth the cost, I could see RR going "all in" on another option, and that could be doing what it takes to get whichever QB they like most in the draft and trading players and picks to bring that to fruition. Hopefully while still having enough draft capital to strengthen holes.

[Riggo#44]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Sam Howell is an option and should be taken seriously.

One of the knocks against Howell that I've heard is that pocket presence...how is he different from Daniel Jones? (Just to be clear--it's an honest question and not being competitive, you're far better at this scouting thing than I am...)

[kingdaddy]

I think we're gonna make a Hershel Walker type of offer to Seattle for Russ Wilson...I can just feel it. Something like this:

Seattle recieves:

1st round picks in 2022, 2023, 2024

2nd round pick in 2023, 2025

Kam Curl

Matt Ionaiddis

Taylor Heinicke

Commanders recieve:

Russell Wilson

DK Metcalf

5th round pick in 2023

 

I can see us doing something along these lines....I wouldn't do it but I think we have reached the point of this kind of a crazy offer to land a QB.

 

 

[Zim489]

12 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

It feels like while you don't like Dan you indeed have some faith in Dan to pull

I think Dan can hire the one person he needs to hire to run the organization. He's done it time and time again. He's just picked wrong. Get the right GM and everything can fall into place. 

[RWJ]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I think they will interview them all.

 

I spent a lot of time on all of these QBs.  I like really all 6 to some extent.  Don't love them.  I think all of them are worth rolling the dice on but I wouldn't bet my mortgage on any of them for different reasons. 

 

The only time I really get really negative on one of these guys is when someone pushes its THIS guy and not the other guys.  I could be wrong on this but if I have a hardcore opinion on this class its the top 6 prospects are pretty close to each other.  I don't think there is a dude that runs a mile ahead of the others. 

 

That's part of the reason why I get the logic if them being willing to do it in the 2nd round and take the best QB that's left.  Normally I hate that idea.  And I initially hate the idea months back.  But the more I digest these QBs, it makes sense at least with my logic.   And as @Thinking Skins in particular can attest to from some of our debates, I typically hate the idea of waiting to the 2nd round.  I throw out the bust rates outside the first all the time.  But drafts aren't one size fits all.  The context can change.  And i think this draft is uniquely different. 

 

All 6 of these guys have different strengths and weaknesses.  My favorite is Corral.  But I don't really have a strong argument against any of these guys.  My strongest argument is I don't think one is head and shoulders over the other with the exception of the argument of upside -- as for upside I think Willis has that cornered.  I'd be happy to have any one of these 6 guys -- not giddy happy but they all intrigue me for different reasons.

 

In 2019, as the draft got closer, I dreaded the idea of getting Haskins or Daniel Jones.  I don't dread any of these top 6.  If they take one of them, I bet I'll try to sell them and sell myself so to speak.

In no order, I like Howell, Ridder, Corral, Willis, Pickett.  That's it. 

[KDawg]

4 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

One of the knocks against Howell that I've heard is that pocket presence...how is he different from Daniel Jones? (Just to be clear--it's an honest question and not being competitive, you're far better at this scouting thing than I am...)

Not quite sure. How it translates changes things. But… Howell at 11 or in the second as a comparison to Daniel Jones is a big upgrade over what we have. So even if that comparison proves fruitful… Daniel Jones > Taylor Heinicke.

 

He’ll protect the ball better, too, most likely.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

3 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

I want them to make the best % chance move. I dont care if its a bad class. Hes made his bed. I want him to sleep in it. Right now im rooting for "Please dont make the job unwantable for the next guy" scenarios which would be bypassing this class and then making a RG3 level move up just to have the team be bad in 2023 and Ron is fired before the lame duck 5th year of 2024. 

 

Right now I see zero shot of Ron ever fixing the mess that he created by trying to make that run in 2020 for the playoffs that ultimately could set the franchise back at least half a decade. It was the worst possible scenario to play out and it did. We have no future. We have no hope because theres no logical path to fix the QB spot with a possible elite talent while Ron is in place. 

It seems you keep bypassing when SIP addresses that you must have some belief in Dan that he's capable of doing better than Ron. I think that's a real key point to the entire situation.  You mention 'please don't make this job unwantable'.  This job is already unwantable.

 

So if Ron gets fired, all the guys he brought into the FO are gone as well.  I get it - your response will be that you don't care, they suck, etc.  That's fine really, I'm not here to defend the FO.  But my point is if that happens, Dan will now be left to his own devices to try and land another coach and FO.  What is the likelihood that Dan even has the connections or smarts to first hire a top notch GM and then let them hire a top notch head coach?  0%.

 

I get you're frustrated and all that but sometimes you need to take a deep breath and be realistic about what our options are and either accept them or move on.

[Zim489]

4 minutes ago, RWJ said:

I give RR and Co, this year to change things around.  If we see improvement in the team and their regular season record then he stays another year.  If we don't, I think, I said I think he should be replaced.  I know that @Skinsinparadise is going probably say who or notability if going to want to coach this team.  Joe Gibbs as he has done before will have Danny out again.    

I dont think theres any chances hes gone after this year unless something happens that has never happened before with Ron teams. A bottoming out. 

 

Ultimately I want my team competing for championships. And right now the only real way to do that with any real chance is elite QB play. I dont think Ron has any idea how to acquire one and his time frame is running out. He's got one year really to do it before he endangers the franchises future. 

[DJHJR86]

6 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Also, Sam Howell is an option and should be taken seriously. I still can’t believe there’s only a handful of us that are beating that drum.

 

I had totally forgotten about Howell as an option.  I would not be upset if they draft him, Pickett, or Corral, tbh.  Ridder just does nothing for me, and Willis is too raw of a prospect.  

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

I think Dan can hire the one person he needs to hire to run the organization. He's done it time and time again. He's just picked wrong. Get the right GM and everything can fall into place. 

 

To me that comes off like you got a lot of faith in Dan.  And i don't mean that sarcastically.  I say that because the problem with Cerrato and Bruce Allen weren't just they weren't good at their jobs but it was also that they gave Dan cover to play defacto GM when he choose.  And he co-opted both dudes to become his best bud.  To think he can go back to that well and it will end up different to me is giving faith to a dude who hasn't earned it. 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Riggo#44]

5 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

I think we're gonna make a Hershel Walker type of offer to Seattle for Russ Wilson...I can just feel it. Something like this:

Seattle recieves:

1st round picks in 2022, 2023, 2024

2nd round pick in 2023, 2025

Kam Curl

Matt Ionaiddis

Taylor Heinicke

Commanders recieve:

Russell Wilson

DK Metcalf

5th round pick in 2023

 

I can see us doing something along these lines....I wouldn't do it but I think we have reached the point of this kind of a crazy offer to land a QB.

 

 

Me, to the Marties and Rivera, hell even Snyder, if they do that deal:

 

[Zim489]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

To me that comes off like you got a lot of faith in Dan.  And i don't mean that sarcastically.  I say that because the problem with Cerrato and Bruce Allen weren't just they weren't good at their jobs but it was also that they gave Dan cover to play defacto GM when he choose.  And he co-opted both dudes to become his best bud.  To think he can go back to that well and it will end up different to me is giving faith to a dude who hasn't earned it. 

I mean he’s seemed to be giving Ron the ability to do it.

 

Ultimately I don’t have faith in Dan picking the right guy but the alternative just shouldn’t be settling for average. We’ve been that for 20 year. I’m ****ing tired of it. At least with a bad pick we might luck into that great QB with a top 3 pick. Nothing else matters until that QB is in place. 
 

so I’ll be rooting for moves that will get us that QB until we get one. And right now that’s Draft a QB at 11 and have him play over the next two years. Watch him suck because this class is bad. Clean house. Get a new guy in here and try again. It’s better odds of working out than just sitting in the middle of the pack and being average. 

[kingdaddy]

14 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

Me, to the Marties and Rivera, hell even Snyder, if they do that deal:

 

Ha, ha....just my feeling on how much we're gonna offer after missing out of Stafford last year by being outbid. Maybe it's Sweat in the deal instead of Curl but I think we'll toss in players in addition to picks. 

[Skinsinparadise]

23 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

I dont think theres any chances hes gone after this year unless something happens that has never happened before with Ron teams. A bottoming out. 

 

Ultimately I want my team competing for championships. And right now the only real way to do that with any real chance is elite QB play. I dont think Ron has any idea how to acquire one and his time frame is running out. He's got one year really to do it before he endangers the franchises future. 

 

It seems like a big beef is you want his team to suck to bottom out.   It's not that easy to do though, sell off the D line, get a pick for Terry?  I can't blame him or any coach for not having a terrible team.  Rivera inherited a bad team in Carolina and they got better.  Same here.   I guess Dan could have done a Dolphins style incentive deal with Ron from the jump to lose games?  

 

I don't think we've ever had a coach that screamed desperation for wanting a QB like Ron.  He's on it.  He's flat out implied he'd trade the moon for one.  And he wants the best QB he can find. Why doesn't he have an idea of how to get one.  Basically implying he will outbid any team isn't enough?  What else does he need to do, offer a co-GM role to the QB?  

 

We want a fliet mignon but the best on the menu is a burger and your point seems to be that's Rivera's fault.  It's Rivera's fault the draft isn't hot for QB.  It's Rivera's fault that this organization for obvious reasons isn't the fit for Watson.  It's Rivera's fault that Seattle doesn't want to trade Wilson.

 

You got a dude screaming your song about QBs.   Not singing it screaming it.  Some of the reporters have talked about this in podcasts, they can't recall a coach this open about wanting that QB.  I don't think you will get that air of open desperation from the next coach here.

 

So I don't think Rivera will win you over no matter what he does until the menu exists where there is an actual fliet mignon.  But right now you are blaming him for the menu.  And in that context, Ron is a loser along with every other team desperate for a QB -- Pittsburgh, the Saints, Carolina, Denver, etc.  

 

I'll use myself for example, i like Mariota over Trubisky.  Corral is my favorite QB in this class.  That's some tangible real life questions for me as for having an argument with Rivera if the rumors on these issues are true.  Will see how it plays out.  But its a debate over tangible decisions based on reality. 

 

The idea that Rivera doesn't get how to get a QB isn't based on reality.  You yourself have spelled out his hurdles. Bad QB class.  Teams don't want to trade their QBs.    You blame the circumstance on him even though he can't control the circumstance. 

 

Now he can control for example Trubisky versus Mariota.  He can go with Ridder over Corral or whatever.  And I think its more than fair to judge those decisions but after the script plays out not beforehand.  I think for example Mariota is a full peg better than Trubisky.  I don't think Trubisky plays out as a successful reclamation project but I don't know that for sure -- I got to let that play out and lets say I am wrong -- Mariota sucks at his next spot and Trubisky is good -- anything is possible.  I got to let it ride and then judge.   

 

I am sure I'll vent a little if they made a move I don't like but I can't ride fully with that thought as some sort of slam dunk fact.  It's opinion.  Cracking the code for QBs is the hardest code to crack according to some scouts.  And I am certainly not pretending that I am the dude that cracked the code.  

Edited March 2, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Chris 44]

51 minutes ago, RWJ said:

I would expect them to interview most of the named QBs in the draft. 

I think it would be news if they didnt.

[CobraCommander]

Just now, Chris 44 said:

I think it would be news if they didnt.

I heard on the radio they are going to interview all of them, looks like there are 14. 

[Skinsinparadise]

17 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

 

so I’ll be rooting for moves that will get us that QB until we get one. And right now that’s Draft a QB at 11 and have him play over the next two years. Watch him suck because this class is bad. Clean house. Get a new guy in here and try again. It’s better odds of working out than just sitting in the middle of the pack and being average. 

 

If they think Carson Strong = Sam Howell.  I am not saying I agree with it but I'll use that for argument's sake.  I get the impression that they don't see any difference from the 3-6 top QBs, why waste the first rounder when you can get an elite rock star player potentially at 11 while still getting a QB in the 2nd that you value similarly to the best Qb on the board at 11?  That's the impression I get that they might be thinking.

 

The thing is I get a strong impression that they want a killer good QB.  So if they don't get one this year, I think they'd trade the moon to get up to get Young or Stroud, etc if there is a willing trade parner.

 

The reason why I'd chill some in your case is this.  From all my years as fan of this team,  I can't recall a coach telegraph to this extent wanting a top QB.  I think the swinging for the fences would extend to next year if it comes to that. 

 

I've never had that feeling before from our previous coaching staffs that they'd swing multiple years in the draft but I get that feelng big time its the case now.  Part of the reason why I don't think they'd trade up in this draft is I don't think they want to lose 2023 draft capital. 

[HigSkin]

 

[Zim489]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

It seems like a big beef is you want his team to suck to bottom out.   It's not that easy to do though, sell off the D line, get a pick for Terry?  I can't blame him or any coach for not having a terrible team.  Rivera inherited a bad team in Carolina and they got better.  Same here.   I guess Dan could have done a Dolphins style incentive deal with Ron from the jump to lose games?  

 

I don't think we've ever had a coach that screamed desperation for wanting a QB like Ron.  He's on it.  He's flat out implied he'd trade the moon for one.  And he wants the best QB he can find. Why doesn't he have an idea of how to get one.  Basically implying he will outbid any team isn't enough?  What else does he need to do, offer a co-GM role to the QB?  

 

We want a fliet mignon but the best on the menu is a burger and your point seems to be that's Rivera's fault.  It's Rivera's fault the draft isn't hot for QB.  It's Rivera's fault that this organization for obvious reasons isn't the fit for Watson.  It's Rivera's fault that Seattle doesn't want to trade Wilson.

 

You got a dude screaming your song about QBs.   Not singing it screaming it.  Some of the reporters have talked about this in podcasts, they can't recall a coach this open about wanting that QB.  I don't think you will get that air of open desperation from the next coach here.

 

So I don't think Rivera will win you over no matter what he does until the menu exists where there is an actual fliet mignon.  But right now you are balming him on the menu.  And in that context, Ron is a loser along with every other team desperate for a QB -- Pittsburgh, the Saints, Carolina, Denver, etc.  

 

I'll use myself for example, i like Mariota over Trubisky.  Corral is my favorite QB in this class.  That's some tangible real life questions for me as for having an argument with Rivera's if the rumors on these issues are true.  Will see how it plays out.  But its a debate over tangible decisions based on reality. 

 

The idea that Rivera doesn't get how to get a QB isn't based on reality.  You yourself have spelled out his hurdles. Bad QB class.  Teams don't want to trade their QBs.    You blame the circumstance on him even though he can't control the circumstance. 

 

Now he can control for example Trubisky versus Mariota.  He can go with Ridder over Corral or whatever.  And I think its more than fair to judge those decisions but after the script plays out not beforehand.  I think for example Mariota is a full peg better than Trubisky.  I don't think Trubisky plays out as a successful reclamation project but I don't know that for sure -- I got to let that play out and lets say I am wrong -- Mariota sucks at his next spot and Trubisky is good -- anything is possible.  I got to let it ride and then judge.   

 

I am sure I'll vent a little if they made a move I don't like but I can't ride fully with that thought as some sort of slam dunk fact.  It's opinion.  Cracking the code for QBs is the hardest code to crack according to some scouts.  And I am certainly not pretending that I am the dude that cracked the code.  

And a large portion of my issue here is the window. Really the largest issue. Ron has missed it. He has a 5 year deal. Really it’s a 4 year deal. He will not be coaching the 5th on a lame duck. So it’s extension or firing. So right now IMO he isn’t deserving of an extension.  Get the QB wrong and what reason is there to keep him? 
 

Im rooting for him to get it right but given the options available and the time frame to make it happen I don’t see it happening. I’m always going to root for the team to win a SB but I can also see the scenarios playing out. I’ll root for the scenarios in which I think leads to best odds of working out to lead us to a SB. And right now that is to a Ron ouster. 
 

I agree with the notion that the roster is too good to be bottoming out and tanking.  That window was in 2020. And it was a very real opportunity to do with the QB class that was coming out and they were within striking of doing it. 
 

moving forward into how to acquire the elite QB? Honestly I’m not sure. They are squarely in the middle. The best option is trading down this drafting a picking up 2023 1st and hope that team bottoms out. I can’t see that happening. I think they have to tear the team down now and get lucky.

 

Ron put them in a pickle that will take years to get out of 

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

<snip image>

 

Let me help you with a REAL response instead. 

 

Edited March 2, 2022 by zCommander