The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[HigSkin]

 

 

[Redskins 2021]

19 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

 

 

Did they say what they thought they have to give up. That could be real bad for us. They would definitely be much improved with him. Would they be better then us.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Redskins 2021

[88Comrade2000]

1 hour ago, DWinzit said:

I can appreciate the swing for the fence and have been in favor of attempting to acquire Wilson or Watson, but slim chances they want Washington.

I am in favor of improving current status with a Trubisky and Corral/Howell/Willis.

That seems to be the most swing for the fence one can do this year. Guess I was just wondering what your thought was on improving our 8-8 status

We aren’t good enough to even be 8-8 or 8-8-1 in today’s 17 game schedule, we only went above 8 wins once in Gruden’s tenure and got an 8 win season in his 3rd year. Ron hasn’t even been good enough to get 8 wins.

[Redskins 2021]

It appear Baker Mayfield may ask for trade. What do you think he be worth if we were to try and get him. He was terrible Monday night but I think it's because he has been injured all year.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Redskins 2021

[NickyJ]

I'd be okay with getting Baker if Carr is out of the picture, depending on the price. If the team wants to pass on the QBs in the draft this season and Carr's not available, then I'd be interested in Baker. I don't see Baker getting anything less than this years first round draft pick and then some.

Edited January 6, 2022 by NickyJ

[max21]

I really don’t think Carr is going to be available at all, since the Gruden thing he still has his team in the playoff hunt. He’s solid, I think they know they would regress without him. I don’t even consider him an option tbh

[Redskins 2021]

5 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

I'd be okay with getting Baker if Carr is out of the picture, depending on the price. If the team wants to pass on the QBs in the draft this season and Carr's not available, then I'd be interested in Baker. I don't see Baker getting anything less than this years first round draft pick and then some.

I would definitely kick tires on Baker for this years first

[lovemaskins]

2 hours ago, DWinzit said:

I get the hesitance, but need to keep trying. Staying stagnant kills. I felt like that's what we did last year by signing Fitz (even if he has stayed healthy), he was too old and on a one year deal. I am glad TH was given plenty of opportunity. But we know the ceiling is low. At least Mitch/Mariota types who had success in college and had pressure and expectations removed might be worthy of a second chance. Plus not requiring trade capital or huge contracts makes them interesting.

 

Having a 1st rounder too, gives us two chances hit pay dirt even if it is the 12 pick, might be the 2nd ranked QB and the teams top guy. Who knows but keep trying

This is the part I can get with. Having selected a high draft while having a stopgap in house I’d completely support, maybe I missed your point previously if that was your intention. But ONLY signing  a Mitch Trubisky type, a hard pass.  Yeah a young thunder cat waiting in the wings, sign me up!

[DWinzit]

1 hour ago, lovemaskins said:

This is the part I can get with. Having selected a high draft while having a stopgap in house I’d completely support, maybe I missed your point previously if that was your intention. But ONLY signing  a Mitch Trubisky type, a hard pass.  Yeah a young thunder cat waiting in the wings, sign me up!

Agreed Mitch only would not be acceptable! Definitely would want to draft a QB as well

2 hours ago, Rdskns2000 said:

We aren’t good enough to even be 8-8 or 8-8-1 in today’s 17 game schedule, we only went above 8 wins once in Gruden’s tenure and got an 8 win season in his 3rd year. Ron hasn’t even been good enough to get 8 wins.

True and why I have offered suggestions on how to improve...and Gruden sucked balls

[mistertim]

5 hours ago, Redskins 2021 said:

It appear Baker Mayfield may ask for trade. What do you think he be worth if we were to try and get him. He was terrible Monday night but I think it's because he has been injured all year.

 

Mayfield is tough to figure out. Had a good rookie season, pretty poor 2nd year, another good year last season, and then another relatively poor one again this year. Is it the coaching? His health? Is he just a really streaky QB?

 

I'm not sure what he's worth, to be honest. Some of it depends on the reason for the trade or for them shopping him. If it's because they just don't think he's the guy, then that's likely going to lower the asking price, because if the Browns are basically admitting that he was the wrong pick with their 1st...why would another team give up a possible top 10 or even top 5 pick for him?

 

If it's just because he wants out of Clevelant and is requesting (or demanding) a trade (who can really blame him...it's Cleveland) then the price will likely be higher. But at the same time that could come with some baggage of its own because teams could then be wary of Mayfield being a malcontent or diva and a locker room problem.

 

I'd be inrigued enough to ask the Browns what they were asking for him, but I'd probably be a bit hesitant to give up a top 10 pick for him.

[Voice_of_Reason]

8 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

Yeah I suppose from an arm strength perspective, but Teddy actually reminds me a fair amount of Heinicke. Mediocre game manager QB who's usually relatively efficient, but can make some off schedule plays with his legs when need be. But Teddy does have a stronger arm...so I guess that's sort of like upgrading from a McDonalds cheeseburger to a McDonalds quarter pounder. It's a little better but still McDonalds. Only in this scenario the quarter pounder would probably cost 10 times what the cheeseburger does. To me that makes Teddy a pass.

I don't know where you are getting the idea Teddy is going to cost a bundle.  I think he can be had for < $5M/year.  He's proven he can't be a full time starter, so he's going to get backup money.  Would he be more than Taylor?  Sure.  But not materially so.  I reserve the right to be wrong, but I don't think he's getting a big payday.

[Voice_of_Reason]

9 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Mayfield is tough to figure out. Had a good rookie season, pretty poor 2nd year, another good year last season, and then another relatively poor one again this year. Is it the coaching? His health? Is he just a really streaky QB?

 

I'm not sure what he's worth, to be honest. Some of it depends on the reason for the trade or for them shopping him. If it's because they just don't think he's the guy, then that's likely going to lower the asking price, because if the Browns are basically admitting that he was the wrong pick with their 1st...why would another team give up a possible top 10 or even top 5 pick for him?

 

If it's just because he wants out of Clevelant and is requesting (or demanding) a trade (who can really blame him...it's Cleveland) then the price will likely be higher. But at the same time that could come with some baggage of its own because teams could then be wary of Mayfield being a malcontent or diva and a locker room problem.

 

I'd be inrigued enough to ask the Browns what they were asking for him, but I'd probably be a bit hesitant to give up a top 10 pick for him.

I think you're spot on that it's tough to tell with him.  I do think some of it is health.  

 

Also, you have to factor this in:  The 2018 Cleveland Browns were coached by Hue Jackson, who was terrible. And they had a terrible coaching staff and not a very talented team.  Then Gregg Williams took over mid-year.  I think Baker played better towards the end of the season.

 

Then they hired Freddie Kitchens, who was a disaster.  And lasted 1 year

 

Then they hired Stefanski, who seems to be a pretty good HC.

 

But that's probably 3 offensive systems for Baker in 4 years, 2 horrendous head coaches and coaching staffs. 

 

He was not put in a good situation.

 

I do think he has some talent, though.  I put him in the category of Carr, Cousins, Tannehill, a few others: They almost certainly deserve one of the 32 starting QB jobs in the NFL, though they are not a top 5 QB.

 

[Ball Security]

If they could pull off a deal for Mayfield similar to what the Colts did for Wentz, I’d be all over it.  McLaurin would be good for Baker and vice versa.  Then you have all kinds of flexibility for this year’s first rounder.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Ball Security

[mistertim]

32 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I think you're spot on that it's tough to tell with him.  I do think some of it is health.  

 

Also, you have to factor this in:  The 2018 Cleveland Browns were coached by Hue Jackson, who was terrible. And they had a terrible coaching staff and not a very talented team.  Then Gregg Williams took over mid-year.  I think Baker played better towards the end of the season.

 

Then they hired Freddie Kitchens, who was a disaster.  And lasted 1 year

 

Then they hired Stefanski, who seems to be a pretty good HC.

 

But that's probably 3 offensive systems for Baker in 4 years, 2 horrendous head coaches and coaching staffs. 

 

He was not put in a good situation.

 

I do think he has some talent, though.  I put him in the category of Carr, Cousins, Tannehill, a few others: They almost certainly deserve one of the 32 starting QB jobs in the NFL, though they are not a top 5 QB.

 

 

It's a fair point about the coaches. He really hasn't had much to work with, and he's also had injury issues. I'd probably be interested in kicking the tires, but it would depend on how much they wanted and if our coaches and FO felt he was a better option or had more upside than a rookie that might be available when we pick. Because a trade for Mayfield means he's your guy, not a stop gap. He's only 26 so you'd be making that trade in the hopes of him being your franchise QB for the next 5-10 years. I'm a bit dubious that he has the upside of an actual elite NFL QB, but with his coaching changes and injury issue it's really hard to tell for sure.

[actorguy1]

Only way I'm trading for a QB is multiple picks for a perennial top 10 player. Not interested in trading a 2nd or 3rd for a question mark. Free agent? Sure, sign an unknown and give him a chance (along with a first round rookie)

Edited January 7, 2022 by actorguy1

[Skinsinparadise]

 

Of course, it could all become a moot point if the Browns decide to acquire a veteran quarterback. Two who could become available in trades are Derek Carr and Kirk Cousins, who played for Stefanski in Minnesota and would undoubtedly love to play for him again. Jimmy Garoppolo, heading into the final year of his contract at a cap hit of $27 million but with only $1.4 million in dead cap space, might become available now that the 49ers drafted Trey Lance.

 

 

As this is considered a bad draft year for QBs, things will start happening quickly with the veteran QB market at season’s end, with Russell Wilson, Deshaun Watson and Aaron Rodgers all indicating they might want out, but being picky about their destinations.

 

 

If the Browns acquire a veteran starter, they’ll try to trade Mayfield, but that might not be easy. In addition to the contract, he’ll be recovering from his surgery — as long as 4-6 months for full football activity — and he won’t be able to pass a physical for a while.

 

 

If the Browns can’t land a starter in a fiercely competitive trade market, they can give it another go with Mayfield and hope he’s better when healthy and with an upgraded receiving corps. But if they know he’s not their long-term answer, they’re better off parting ways now than prolonging the inevitable.

 

 

Either way, Mayfield and Stefanski must figure it as soon as possible so that both parties know where they stand heading into this crucial offseason.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[method man]

I wouldn’t trade the first for Mayfield and he doesn’t deserve a Wentz type of return either. People forget that Wentz was once an MVP candidate. I’d consider maybe a 3rd and a player (similar to the Alex Smith trade). Also the hard part with him is that his contract is up after this year…I wouldn’t want to extend him just yet

Edited January 7, 2022 by method man

[Koolblue13]

Trading for a QB who's already injured, could be a bold direction for us.

[Skinsinparadise]

On 1/5/2022 at 2:32 PM, wit33 said:

 

Doesn’t surprise me that outside of Rodgers this season the SB contenders coming into the season all are below or at 10% of the cap (Allen, Mahomes, Brady, Stafford, Burrow, and Murray). It’s not absolute, but a lot of data to support it. 
 

https://overthecap.com/position/quarterback/2021/

 

 

A Broncos player was quoted this week about how they squandered a loaded roster, implying not having a QB has killed them.   I agree value matters.  But where you sometimes lose me when you argue the point....

 

A.   Bad Qb play.  i don't care if Case Keenum or Nick Mullens or name that JAG takes up 3% of the cap.  Your team is still going to suck.  As times marches on, the idea that the QB spot is overrated and you can win with a loaded roster without a good QB is becoming more and more passe. 

 

B.  Winning and relevance matters.  It's not SB or bust.  The teams that are perpetual losers aren't even close to the same as winners who are perpetual playoff teams.   The perpetual losers, see WFT or the NY teams, etc seem to be bleeding fans or have disgruntled ones.  You don't hear too much whining from perpetual winning organizations

 

It's not easy to win a SB.  Even Aaron Rodgers has only won one SB.  Being in the playoffs just about every year does matter to many fans ala what Russell Wilson and Seattle has done.   Having a perpetual shot at the big dance whether you win it or not versus no shot at it, makes a mile of difference IMO.  If we replicated Seattle no way this team for example would be bleeding fans.  No one is envious of our Qb situation no matter how cool it looks from a cap standpoint.   

 

I am not saying you are saying otherwise as for our situation but the idea of hey we got a bargain at the Qb spot -- is yawn to the typical fan if said Qb isn't really good.  Ditto the idea of trust the idea that we too can have that lightening in the bottle Nick Foles run with name that JAG. 

 

C.  You don't seem to factor the power of staggered deals and just focus on the current even though the whole point of staggered deals is for them to escalate based on projecting rising cap rates ala the Mahomes contract and plenty of others.   Also some deals just have to be unfavorable in the laters years of the contract in order to be able to consumate the deal in the first place -- so you take the pleasure early for the pain later but if you don't do that you end up without the QB. 

 

Look you can have a medicore QB and have a good one off good season.  It's possible.  But uts typically a long term losing bet.  The examples often used, Dilfer and Foles, had their teams abandon both dudes pretty quickly soon after.  Heck this franchise has had some one off good seasons in the midst of the losing.  Granted our one offs have been the most modest in the league being the only team not to win 11 games or more for the last 30 years or so.

 

But its really hard to think of teams that have been consistent winners with Jags at QB no matter what kind of deal you got them at.  

Edited January 7, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

Rivera interview on 980 just now.  Can you have sustainable success without a top QB?  Rivera said no, its a QB league, that's where the league is now.  You need that QB.   

 

Sheehan asked Rivera about what would have Fitzpatrick brought.  Sheehan asked a follow up question to Rivera without flat out saying it what would he have brought different.  I thought it was interesting that Rivera said throws a really accurate deep ball and can throw into tight windows.

 

Also Rivera flat out answers yes about them chasing a QB this offseason, not that it was a revelation at all.  But for the few straggler Heinicke is the guy people, that interview made it clear its very doubtful they see Heinicke as the answer. 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Est.1974]

Rivera badly need a QB. There’ll be be holding back on what he’s willing to ‘pay’ for one this offseason. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Sheehan just followed up, he took it the same way I did.  That is, Rivera suggesting Fitzpatrick can throw a good deep ball and can throw into tight windows as something different than what we got.  i know Rivera is cool with and likes Heinicke but I take those comments as those are things they think a new QB can improve on versus Taylor.

[Koolblue13]

Rivera knows as well as anyone that you can't win offensive match ups with someone like Heinicke. He stinks and im not even sure he's a lock over Allen to make our roster next season. 

[HigSkin]

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bears/how-bad-was-mitch-trubisky-deep-ball-throws-2019

 

How Bad Was Mitch Trubisky at Deep Ball Throws in 2019?

 

Pace took his time making his decision on Trubisky's fifth-year option. He did his due diligence; he reviewed and analyzed and scrutinized every aspect of Trubisky's game. In the end, No. 10 just hasn't been good enough, and one thing that's plagued him is his inability to connect on the long ball. In fact, Trubisky was recently rated as the league's worst deep-ball thrower by USA Today's Doug Farrar. 

There are a number of reasons the Bears declined Trubisky’s fifth-year option and brought Nick Foles in to compete for Chicago’s starting job, but Trubisky’s performance on deep passes is stunningly bad. Last season, Trubisky had the worst EPA (Expected Points Added) on deep throws — his -14.6 far outpaced the field, as Daniel Jones of the Giants finished second-worst at -9.0. On such throws, Trubisky completed just 32 of 103 passes for 779 yards, four touchdowns, and seven interceptions. It’s one of many things Trubisky will have to improve if he’s ever to be thought of as anything but a draft bust.

 

Having a quality deep ball isn't a prerequisite to be a quality NFL starter, but it certainly helps. The ability to flip the field on one play that's the result of an on-the-money bucket-throw is extremely valuable, and it's a reasonable expectation for a player who was selected with the second overall pick in the 2017 NFL Draft.

Edited January 7, 2022 by HigSkin

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

As for general Qb talk, Carr's name keeps coming up by the media.  Though to the point below i think the Raiders trading for Rodgers or Wilson i'd think would mean Carr is part of that package versus it making him expendable.  Unless GB is high on Love.