The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, PartyPosse said:

He’s signed next year.

 

This is a relevant point.  I don't get this zero sum game that some are presenting involving Heinicke. 

 

Not only does drafting a QB not = bye bye Heinicke.  It represents his best shot to get another season to prove that he's the guy which the Heinicke Hive seems to be convinced is truth.

 

They should be rooting for a draft pick.  They should be rooting against an aggressive trade for a veteran.

 

I gather some are rooting for them to do nothing at QB.  But in their shoes, I'd let that go because I think they are likely bracing for disappointment if so. 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

I hope Heini gets it together and starts planting his feet before he throws those long balls, so its easier to connect for the receivers and balls out the rest of the season, so QB doesn't keep being such a thorn in our side. 

 

The full season and a full professional offseason as the starter, might be huge for his mechanics. 

 

There's zero chance we don't draft one, but there's so much good talent in this draft on defense. 

 

If Heinicke finishes strong, he's gotta be the starter going into next season. Turner has a tricky system and there's no way anyone can walk in a beat him out, based on knowledge and running the playbook. It's also tricky because he's such a huge locker room guy.

 

I dont think we can bring in a top end vet and a reclamation project is just gonna ride pine.

 

I think my plan now is to role with Heinicke, while ridding this awesome ground game. Draft a QB. Depending on the depth of the position, either double dip the position or bring Kyle back or both.

 

I'm low-key hoping that Ridder is the target, because of his draft slot (late first). I think Sweats on the block personally and if we could somehow draft one of the stud LBers early and then come away with a QB and  FS late day one/early day two, I'd be ecstatic. 

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

This is a relevant point.  I don't get this zero sum game that some are presenting involving Heinicke. 

 

Not only does drafting a QB not = bye bye Heinicke.  It represents his best shot to get another season to prove that he's the guy which the Heinicke Hive seems to be convinced is truth.

 

They should be rooting for a draft pick.  They should be rooting against an aggressive trade for a veteran.

 

I gather some are rooting for them to do nothing at QB.  But in their shoes, I'd let that go because I think they are likely bracing for disappointment if so. 

100% on this. We are absolutely going hard on QB this year. I think that's as much of a sure thing as the Hive being delusional. 

[KDawg]

Here's the deal... 

 

This team requires a Plan B and a Plan A. Why?

 

1) Our draft position is slowly going lower and lower. That means the better prospects (read: prospects with the higher seen upside) are going to likely be off the board. This is your Corral/Willis/Howell type players of the world. Yes, that leaves us with Pickett (again, withholding judgement on if he can throw a NFL ball like he throws a college one) and possibly Ridder and Strong. All of whom can pan out. But if you ask me if I'd rather have, say, Devin Lloyd or Desmond Ridder my answer is Lloyd. Same with some of the safety talent. And I definitely don't want Ridder or Strong at say pick 10. It's a mismanagement of resources just to say, "Well, I drafted a QB".

 

2) There aren't many FA options that are going to want to come here. Prior to recently I would have signed a plan B in FA. Mariota, Trubisky, etc. Now I think we have a cheap Plan B already on the roster in Taylor Heinicke. No one in FA is going to be worth signing as of this moment.

 

3) Russell Wilson, Aaron Rodgers, Deshaun Watson aren't real options for us. Rodgers will stay in Green Bay or go somewhere his fiancee can find work easily, likely a west coast destination or some place like Pittsburgh with a positive franchise image. Watson, unless cleared, is just not a good look despite his skills. And if he is cleared the competition will be astronomical and Watson won't choose DC. The only wild card is Russell Wilson. Maybe he values a guy like Ron Rivera. But I have my reservations there, too. I just don't see anyone from this group being in play.

 

Our choices are to trade up in the draft (and we still likely miss on the top 2 and possibly 3 QBs because Detroit, Houston and the Giants likely take quarterbacks. Right now our best chance is if the draft order stays as is: NYJ is #2 and Jacksonville is #3. They may be willing to trade down. But they are going to want the talent level of a player they'd take in those spots. Chase Young/Sweat likely will need to be on the table. Which quite frankly I'd be okay with. Our defense isn't "better" without them, but they are at least playing on par and more within the scheme since those two have been out. That's the wild card. Do we move up to 2 or 3 and find those teams willing to do business? If so, we will have to give up a haul. But that is the only REAL option right now.

 

4) I know people will point out that there have been franchise level QBs found later in the first and I don't necessarily disagree. But I just don't see it with this class at the moment. Maybe I change that standpoint later. Maybe Howell declares and falls, which would be great. Maybe Pickett shakes things up while showing he has a live NFL arm. 

 

But barring the ability to trade up we are selecting 10th overall in the draft. That is the prime spot to look for a LT or top flight receiver or trade back to acquire assets and ammo for the 23 draft or to the sweet spot to get a bellcow back or free safety or LB.

 

To me I think it's obvious we need a long term answer at quarterback. I just don't think that the cost to getting a guy that isn't up to snuff is worth the damage. 

Edited November 24, 2021 by KDawg

[Koolblue13]

I'm really getting more jealous of the eagles every week. Hurts is their QB and this draft they're gonna add 3 blue chip defenders. 

[mhd24]

42 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Here's the deal... 

 

This team requires a Plan B and a Plan A. Why?

 

1) Our draft position is slowly going lower and lower. That means the better prospects (read: prospects with the higher seen upside) are going to likely be off the board. This is your Corral/Willis/Howell type players of the world. Yes, that leaves us with Pickett (again, withholding judgement on if he can throw a NFL ball like he throws a college one) and possibly Ridder and Strong. All of whom can pan out. But if you ask me if I'd rather have, say, Devin Lloyd or Desmond Ridder my answer is Lloyd. Same with some of the safety talent. And I definitely don't want Ridder or Strong at say pick 10. It's a mismanagement of resources just to say, "Well, I drafted a QB".

 

2) There aren't many FA options that are going to want to come here. Prior to recently I would have signed a plan B in FA. Mariota, Trubisky, etc. Now I think we have a cheap Plan B already on the roster in Taylor Heinicke. No one in FA is going to be worth signing as of this moment.

 

3) Russell Wilson, Aaron Rodgers, Deshaun Watson aren't real options for us. Rodgers will stay in Green Bay or go somewhere his fiancee can find work easily, likely a west coast destination or some place like Pittsburgh with a positive franchise image. Watson, unless cleared, is just not a good look despite his skills. And if he is cleared the competition will be astronomical and Watson won't choose DC. The only wild card is Russell Wilson. Maybe he values a guy like Ron Rivera. But I have my reservations there, too. I just don't see anyone from this group being in play.

 

Our choices are to trade up in the draft (and we still likely miss on the top 2 and possibly 3 QBs because Detroit, Houston and the Giants likely take quarterbacks. Right now our best chance is if the draft order stays as is: NYJ is #2 and Jacksonville is #3. They may be willing to trade down. But they are going to want the talent level of a player they'd take in those spots. Chase Young/Sweat likely will need to be on the table. Which quite frankly I'd be okay with. Our defense isn't "better" without them, but they are at least playing on par and more within the scheme since those two have been out. That's the wild card. Do we move up to 2 or 3 and find those teams willing to do business? If so, we will have to give up a haul. But that is the only REAL option right now.

 

4) I know people will point out that there have been franchise level QBs found later in the first and I don't necessarily disagree. But I just don't see it with this class at the moment. Maybe I change that standpoint later. Maybe Howell declares and falls, which would be great. Maybe Pickett shakes things up while showing he has a live NFL arm. 

 

But barring the ability to trade up we are selecting 10th overall in the draft. That is the prime spot to look for a LT or top flight receiver or trade back to acquire assets and ammo for the 23 draft or to the sweet spot to get a bellcow back or free safety or LB.

 

To me I think it's obvious we need a long term answer at quarterback. I just don't think that the cost to getting a guy that isn't up to snuff is worth the damage. 

 

 

If we are (hypothetically 10), then Lloyd is the only that screams take me.  He's a missile out there.  The decision frankly depends on resigning Leno or not.  If we resign Leno, then LT doesn't become a need anymore (LT looks like the deepest position of the first round).  We might take Drake London then?  WR isn't a huge need per se, but he'd bring a completely different element to the WR group.  I'd rather draft a back 7 defender if we are not taking a QB.  However, you can't force it (i.e. take a Christian Ponder type).

11 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I'm really getting more jealous of the eagles every week. Hurts is their QB and this draft they're gonna add 3 blue chip defenders. 

Have to keep rooting for Miami and Indy to win.  

[Skinsinparadise]

 

I am not even watching yet prospects outside of the QBs (aside from in real time when I am just watching college football) because I think 95% chance our first round pick is going to for either a veteran QB (less likely) or taking a QB in this draft in the first or trading up.   So the idea of Lloyd or Dean IMO is too much fantasy for me to entertain.  And frankly I really hate the idea of going non-QB, i don't care who its for.    So its not a fun fantasy for me, it makes me cringe.  Not because I don't like those players but because I just don't buy this team gets to the promise land without the QB.  

 

I've been at times on the train of playing the bird at hand, BPA, QB be damned in other drafts.  I am done with that now.  I genuinely felt Chase was the BPA in the 2020 draft.  I was cool with skipping Tua and Herbert because in my mind Chase was better.   I've felt similar things about BPA in other drafts.  And in retrospect, I've not always been vindicated with those feelings.  So count me among the dudes who will go ballistic at them if they don't shoot for a QB early.  

 

I'd be ok with trading an edge rusher, I love them both but again a QB means everything IMO if its the right one.  So if they love a dude, I'd trade a player if must be.  It would be Sweat over Chase.  I don't think Chase is tradable right now anyway considering his ACL.

 

I don't buy even a little that there is some viable counter point to the idea of shooting for a QB in the draft can be about them aggressively going after a dude they are lukewarm on but will do it just because they need to show fans-media that they got a QB.  Rivera isn't a dummy.  He's not going to give up draft capital for a dude he's not that high on just because.  So for me personally that discussion point is a waste of time. 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Renegade7]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

This is a relevant point.  I don't get this zero sum game that some are presenting involving Heinicke. 

 

Not only does drafting a QB not = bye bye Heinicke.  It represents his best shot to get another season to prove that he's the guy which the Heinicke Hive seems to be convinced is truth.

 

They should be rooting for a draft pick.  They should be rooting against an aggressive trade for a veteran.

 

I gather some are rooting for them to do nothing at QB.  But in their shoes, I'd let that go because I think they are likely bracing for disappointment if so. 

 

I'm sorry, but if we draft a first round QB, then Heinicke is basically auditioning for another team next year, not ours.  Thats the point of drafting a QB leading to losing him. You make that kind of investment in a new QB, theres little the incumbent can do about it.

[Thinking Skins]

8 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I'm sorry, but if we draft a first round QB, then Heinicke is basically auditioning for another team next year, not ours.  Thats the point of drafting a QB leading to losing him. You make that kind of investment in a new QB, theres little the incumbent can do about it.

If we draft a QB and keep Heinicke, it could easily be a situation where the QB isn't ready yet. This is why I'm looking more at the words raw talent because they could sit and learn behind Taylor. 

[Warhead36]

If Heinicke finishes strong we'll be picking around 19 again and won't be in a position to draft a QB anyway so we might as well roll with him as our starter for 2022.

[Skinsinparadise]

17 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I'm sorry, but if we draft a first round QB, then Heinicke is basically auditioning for another team next year, not ours.  Thats the point of drafting a QB leading to losing him. You make that kind of investment in a new QB, theres little the incumbent can do about it.

 

Let me start with I am not on the edge of my seat as for whether Heinicke deserves the keys to the kingdom, the way a few seem to be.  I don't think he is the answer if the answer means a franchise QB.   So I really don't care that much about how if they do this or that it effects Heinicke.    If we were talking Terry McLaurin I'd be digging my heels in an argument.  Some here are digging their heels for Heinicke.  That's cool.  To each their own.  But that's not me. 

 

Heinicke is a nice story but he's not someone i am infatuated with as a player.  I like him, don't love him.  Now if he kills it for the rest of the season, maybe I'll be infatuated too.  But right now for example, I am not waffiling, not even a whit about hey maybe we don't need Corral for example because we got our guy Heinicke.  Maybe in Jaunuary I'll feel differently but that's how I feel now.   

 

I'd love to feel differently but all I can do is ride with how I feel in real time.  I've changed my mind on things before.  Specifically as for QBs, I've just learned to be wary of small sample sizes and not to be taken by the highs in the mix of the lows.  Average QBs are rarely just average every game.  Some games they are awful.  Some games they look like Aaron Rodgers.  So I need a sample play out.  I can't think of too many top 10 QBs over time with Heinicke's type of arm strength so that remains my main hesitation about him.

 

The kicker for me is I keep hearing that Rivera and the FO doesn't see Heinicke as a franchise QB so they are looking for someone else.  But they like him as a backup-spot starter.  Rivera in an interview not long ago flat out said they are spending a lot of time on college QBs and there are some they like.  If all of a sudden I hear a 180 on this, it will get my attention.

 

If I were in that camp of Heinicke is the guy, I'd see them trading for a veteran as the end of Heinicke.   But drafting a young QB, who as we mentioned can be a crap shoot, gives him a chance to beat said QB for the job and increase the sample size.   I don't think Heinicke would struggle fighting a young Jason Campbell, Haskins, Ramsey, etc.  And look if Heinicke can't beat the young QB, then great.  Our loyalty of course is to the WFT not Heinicke's career.  Whether its Heinicke or name that QB X, we want that guy.   

Edited November 24, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

20 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I'm sorry, but if we draft a first round QB, then Heinicke is basically auditioning for another team next year, not ours.  Thats the point of drafting a QB leading to losing him. You make that kind of investment in a new QB, theres little the incumbent can do about it.

If Heinicke is the starter next year and our offense is dominant and winning games, Heinicke will get an extension mid-season and remain the starter, unless the rookie is blowing his doors off in practice. 

 

There is zero chance Ron changes out a winning QB for a rookie. None. 

[KDawg]

32 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I am not even watching yet prospects outside of the QBs (aside from in real time when I am just watching college football) because I think 95% chance our first round pick is going to for either a veteran QB (less likely) or taking a QB in this draft in the first or trading up.   So the idea of Lloyd or Dean IMO is too much fantasy for me to entertain.  And frankly I really hate the idea of going non-QB, i don't care who its for.    So its not a fun fantasy for me, it makes me cringe.  Not because I don't like those players but because I just don't buy this team gets to the promise land without the QB.  

 

I've been at times on the train of playing the bird at hand, BPA, QB be damned in other drafts.  I am done with that now.  I genuinely felt Chase was the BPA in the 2020 draft.  I was cool with skipping Tua and Herbert because in my mind Chase was better.   I've felt similar things about BPA in other drafts.  And in retrospect, I've not always been vindicated with those feelings.  So count me among the dudes who will go ballistic at them if they don't shoot for a QB early.  

 

I'd be ok with trading an edge rusher, I love them both but again a QB means everything IMO if its the right one.  So if they love a dude, I'd trade a player if must be.  It would be Sweat over Chase.  I don't think Chase is tradable right now anyway considering his ACL.

 

I don't buy even a little that there is some viable counter point to the idea of shooting for a QB in the draft can be about them aggressively going after a dude they are lukewarm on but will do it just because they need to show fans-media that they got a QB.  Rivera isn't a dummy.  He's not going to give up draft capital for a dude he's not that high on just because.  So for me personally that discussion point is a waste of time and irrelevant. 

everything you are saying here is equivalent to: “our first pick is a QB even if it’s a reach. And I think we can trade up no matter what even if the teams ahead don’t want to do business.”

 

I think the idea that we can get a QB no matter what that is also a solid pickup is off-base and a fantasy.

 

If we can, we get them. No questions. If it’s Ridder at 10, I don’t.

Edited November 24, 2021 by KDawg

[Renegade7]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

If I were in that camp of Heinicke is the guy, I'd see them trading for a veteran as the end of Heinicke.   But drafting a young QB, who as we mentioned can be a crap shoot, gives him a chance to beat said QB for the job and increase the sample size.   I don't think Heinicke would struggle fighting a young Jason Campbell, Haskins, Ramsey, etc.  And look if Heinicke can't beat the young QB, then great.  Our loyalty of course is to the WFT not Heinicke's career.  Whether its Heinicke or name that QB X, we want that guy.   

 

I believe Taylor is somewhere between what Ron is saying we are looking high and low for and a career backup.  His numbers don't say backup anymore, nor do they say elite. 

 

This isnt about loyalty to Taylor, this is the business.  When you draft a QB in the first round, you tie your coaching tenure to them.  Between that and Taylor's numbers, there's no reason for him to stay a backup here.  

 

What does Ron do if Taylor keeps beating his 1st round QB in camp? Does that say more about Taylor or the Rookie?

 

I've said repeatedly I dont like this draft class for QB, it could cause us to be desperate for someone that really isn't worth it.  I'm willing to wait until the end if the season to see if Taylor can be the bridge guy until we get the right 1st round QB, trade down this year for ammo next year to trade up if need be in 2023 draft.

 

Are we still desperate to replace Taylor like we were during the 4 game skid?

5 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

If Heinicke is the starter next year and our offense is dominant and winning games, Heinicke will get an extension mid-season and remain the starter, unless the rookie is blowing his doors off in practice. 

 

There is zero chance Ron changes out a winning QB for a rookie. None. 

 

Then its a wasted first round pick, and we won't get a return on investment if we trade him. Catch-22

19 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

If we draft a QB and keep Heinicke, it could easily be a situation where the QB isn't ready yet. This is why I'm looking more at the words raw talent because they could sit and learn behind Taylor. 

 

"Raw talent" terrifies me because it screams a lot of work that might not work to make them worth the investment.  Either you can play at this level or you can't, I can't deal with a first round project.  Maybe a different round, but not first.

[Thinking Skins]

19 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Raw talent" terrifies me because it screams a lot of work that might not work to make them worth the investment.  Either you can play at this level or you can't, I can't deal with a first round project.  Maybe a different round, but not first.

Sorry for not clarifying. I was talking lower round. Maybe not 5th but like 3rd. I honestly don't know this year's class and their pros and cons. But if there's a guy who is raw or went to a small school, is consider him there 

[Koolblue13]

30 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I believe Taylor is somewhere between what Ron is saying we are looking high and low for and a career backup.  His numbers don't say backup anymore, nor do they say elite. 

 

This isnt about loyalty to Taylor, this is the business.  When you draft a QB in the first round, you tie your coaching tenure to them.  Between that and Taylor's numbers, there's no reason for him to stay a backup here.  

 

What does Ron do if Taylor keeps beating his 1st round QB in camp? Does that say more about Taylor or the Rookie?

 

I've said repeatedly I dont like this draft class for QB, it could cause us to be desperate for someone that really isn't worth it.  I'm willing to wait until the end if the season to see if Taylor can be the bridge guy until we get the right 1st round QB, trade down this year for ammo next year to trade up if need be in 2023 draft.

 

Are we still desperate to replace Taylor like we were during the 4 game skid?

 

Then its a wasted first round pick, and we won't get a return on investment if we trade him. Catch-22

 

"Raw talent" terrifies me because it screams a lot of work that might not work to make them worth the investment.  Either you can play at this level or you can't, I can't deal with a first round project.  Maybe a different round, but not first.

A wasted pick is drafting Jordan Love, when Rodgers has years of high end play left.

 

An investment is drafting Rodgers, while Farve is still playing well, but aging.

 

If we draft a QB and he sits for 3 or 4 years and Heinicke plays like Farve, kick ass. Heinicke keeps starting, until the Rookie is ready and we move on.

 

Heinicke is playing great and I think he can get better, with better mechanics and a full year of throwing to strengthen his arm as a starter. I think he can be our QB for a few years.

 

That said, but you can't overlook the sack of **** that was last month from the QB position. You can make excuses for it. You can overlook the lack of arm and make excuses for that too. But you can't overlook the lack of depth at the most important position on the team. You can't overlook his injury history and you can't over look the fact that he isn't Farve or Rodgers and we need a future starting QB on the roster. 

 

There will never be a change made when we are winning. Best case scenario is the 2000 Patriots situation. Great vet getting us to the playoffs, gets hurt and the future QB steps in and never stops winning. Regardless of where the back up comes from. 

 

I could see your point if we were drafting a Trevor Lawrence or an Andrew Luck, but we'll be mid to high teens and taking the 3rd or 4rth QB in a draft without one of those guys. 

[kingdaddy]

12 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

lol, i thought I might be the biggest Ron homer on the board.  But you got me beat albeit I am not sure if you liking of him is Heinicke based considering how much he's featured in your post?  So I'll counter argue some.  But just so you know, I got a lot of admiration for Ron and I've defended him a lot in the last two years.  We are feeling good this week because of 2 back to back wins.  But not that long ago, Ron was criticized plenty here.  And plenty by both the national and local media. 

 

But anyway, I'll take a role I typically don't take.  That is, playing some devil's advocate on Ron.   

 

So far he's done ok if we are looking at it purely based on record.  7-9 but they did make the playoffs.  Right now they are 4-6.  Will see how this season unfolds.  Jay Gruden who is seen by some here as the biggest dummy coach on the planet had a 3 year run similar (even better) than what Ron is on track for in the first two seasons.  So I like this team's progress but I am not blown away by it.  But I do think Ron is a great guy and a culture setter.  IMO he's not a great coach but a good coach.  As far as a GM, I know some have doubts.  I don't know yet.  But i like the track he's on. 

 

 

I've said before John Keim is a gem.  He's gotten so much right over the years its uncanny.  He's not perfect but he's nailed a lot.  From talking to multiple sources at the club, he doesn't think they think Heinicke is a franchise QB and the long term solution.  They like him but not to the degree you are pushing here.  Could that change?  Maybe.  But I think you are getting ahead of yourself.

 

 

I like Heinicke but I think you are getting carried away.  Jason Campbell outdueled Drew Brees.  Heath Shuler outdueled Troy Aikman.  Kirk outdueled Aaron Rodgers.  So what?  It's the NFL.   Nick Foles plowed through the playoffs beating big time QBs and then Brady.  Mike White was all the rage a few weeks ago, now he's on the bench.   Any given Sunday.    If its all about one off events, the WFT has had plenty of cool memories.  I recall sweeping the Giants the year they won the SB.  Beating GB too the year they won the SB.  We've not been good but we haven't missed the party as to having our share too of enjoying the Any Given Sunday dynamic. 

 

I like Heinicke, and I get the fun of thinking he's the dude to take us out of the QB mess.  But I'll buy in that he's the guy when I hear from any beat guy that they hear that Rivera sees him as the guy.  Heck Rivera practically told the Junkies two weeks ago they are obsesssing over QBs in the draft.    Every indications are all hands are on deck to find that guy.

 

  

What more?  A lot more than that if you mean buying in that he's a franchise QB.   Todd Collins took us to the playoffs and helped save a floundering season.  Jason started 6-2 under Zorn and there was even some MVP talk during that time.  We bombed with Shuler but Gus looked like the real deal.    Short samples are dangerous.  Heinicke looked good at the beginning of the season, and some wanted to crown him.  Then he struggled and some argued whether he's even backup material.  Now he's back with two good games in a row and he's crowned again?

 

I don't feel like repeating a post a made eons ago that got into QBs who looked good for a streak and then came back to earth.  it's a long list.  My point isn't really Heinicke specific but just about QBs in general.  Plenty of teases over the years.  You want to see consistency over a season.

 

And like you i am a big Rivera guy.  I love listening to talk radio and hearing from people supposedly in the know.  And its not hard for me to piece together that Rivera doesn't see Heinicke as the long term solution -- Keim flat out said that.  So i am not going against Rivera here since he would know Heinicke better than anyone.  If I start hearing that tune changing than i am with you. 

I probably am getting ahead of myself with TH but until something better comes along he's the guy I ride with. I see a QB who's improving after the growing pains of being a 1st year starter in the league and who has played a huge part in the 4 wins we have. Teams have won with much less at QB then what TH is bringing each week. Denver won a SB with a noodle armed Peyton Manning, Dilfer in Baltimore, etc....We are gonna take this week to week with TH and I'll bet he does more good things than bad. Like you, I'd love a franchise stud QB but until one comes along I'm gonna enjoy the Heinicke ride and see where it takes us. How he does in the divisional games coming up will be very telling...Dallas and Philly await us. If he can steer us through them then EVERYONE will be praising #4. 

[wit33]

No longer do I support the idea of going all in on a rookie high draft pick and that being the sole plan. Out with feelings and support for a young QB, make him earn it with legit competition. If they go with a first round pick I want Heineke back and still go after a Mariota or Trubisky. 
 

No way am I hitching the fate of the next two seasons on a rookie QB and then repeating that cycle. Strong pass.
 

Done with coaches/FOs locking in 3 years of pay by trotting out a young mediocre QB and preaching time/patience to the fans. 

Edited November 24, 2021 by wit33

[Renegade7]

16 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

 

I could see your point if we were drafting a Trevor Lawrence or an Andrew Luck, but we'll be mid to high teens and taking the 3rd or 4rth QB in a draft without one of those guys. 

 

But isn't that what many on the board are saying we need, a Trevor or Luck, not the 3rd or 4th QB in not so great QB draft?  That jus feels desperate when we shouldn't be, I dont want to risk another Jason Campbell.

 

I agree we need someone better then Kyle Allen on the roster, but if we are going to get a first round rookie, I want to go hard and get the best we can get.  I dont believe this is the year to do it, trade down, then trade up.

[ThomasRoane]

55 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I believe Taylor is somewhere between what Ron is saying we are looking high and low for and a career backup.  His numbers don't say backup anymore, nor do they say elite. 

 

This isnt about loyalty to Taylor, this is the business.  When you draft a QB in the first round, you tie your coaching tenure to them.  Between that and Taylor's numbers, there's no reason for him to stay a backup here.  

 

 

I'm with @Renegade7 here.  I do watch College football and no QB is blowing me away as a can't miss NFL QB.  I thought maybe Caleb Williams but he needs another year or two.  

 

I believe the team should always draft a QB; like the Packers.  But don't trade any draft Capitol for that position.  It rarely turns out well.  

 

As the team stands today, QB is not the greatest need.  Here's what I consider to be the greatest needs to help the team take the next step.

 

1) Safety to replace/upgrade McCain (I think it's a done deal that Collins is gone; I hope!)

2) Dependable receiver who can stay healthy and take the top off the defense.  (Either a burner or the ever-elusive big receiver who can win jump balls in the end zone)

3) O-Line depth (Best available; it's not that I don't like the players they have.  It's more of an injury concern for me.  There's a lot of injuries there)

4) DB (Not sure what they have there.  The unit has played better lately.  You can never have too many good DBs though; they're tradeable assets at least)

5) Pass Rusher (I have my doubts about Sweat and Young.  As of today, it seems like we may have overdrafted.  Hopefully that will change but the backups seem to play with more discipline and I'm not seeing a big drop off)

6) QB to develop.  (Could take one in the 1st round.  I don't care.  Wherever the FO thinks his value determines his draft position is fine with me.  They did a good job with the draft last year.  Dyami Brown is the only one I'm not sure about.  He seems a little soft to me.  Hopefully, it's just an injury that's holding him back and a lack of desire to play. )

[NewCliche21]

16 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I think the cliff notes version is this.   I think the underpinning of the debate is about what we think of this draft class.

 

I think this draft is mischarterized as a bad draft for QBs because its missing a headliner.  There is no Lawrence, Andrew Luck, or Kyler Murray.  I forgot his name but a dude from Draft Network summed it well for me in a radio interview recently.  No headliner but there is a number of intriguing prospects, as many as any draft that he can remember.  I can care less about a headliner because we don't have the #1 pick in the draft.  So yeah if Kyler Murray was in this draft it would be billed as a much better QB draft but to me the point is irrelevant to our bottom line considering the headliner would be irrelevant to our pick. 

 

<snip>

 

Okay, I think I get it, but do you judge this year's pick only relative to other picks in this year's draft?  Kinda like a professor curving a grade?

I just worry that we take a swing at a C+ QB and then when he only turns out to be a C+ QB, people say Rivera screwed up and he gets canned.  I guess the alternative is no swing at all, but I think he doesn't get canned for that.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I believe Taylor is somewhere between what Ron is saying we are looking high and low for and a career backup.  His numbers don't say backup anymore, nor do they say elite. 

 

 

My wavering about Heinicke is can he be a middle of the pack QB or is he more of a bottom tier starter.  I think for sure he's a great backup.  In short the ceiling for what I want in a QB in beyond a middle of the pack QB.  

 

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

 

This isnt about loyalty to Taylor, this is the business.  When you draft a QB in the first round, you tie your coaching tenure to them.  Between that and Taylor's numbers, there's no reason for him to stay a backup here.  

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

 

 

I've said repeatedly I dont like this draft class for QB, it could cause us to be desperate for someone that really isn't worth it.  I'm willing to wait until the end if the season to see if Taylor can be the bridge guy until we get the right 1st round QB, trade down this year for ammo next year to trade up if need be in 2023 draft.

 

Are we still desperate to replace Taylor like we were during the 4 game skid?

 

 

 He's under contract next year.  So what do you mean by there is no reason to keep him here?  Let him go in that case to do right by him or am I misconstruing your point?

 

As for you saying releatedly that you don't like the QB class.  I'll say repeatedly that the QB class is fine and intriguing.   So the idea of them getting desperate fits your narrative but doesn't fit my narrative at all because we are coming at it from the opposite premise.    So lets agree to disagree on that point.

 

As for you not liking the Qb class, I am curious which QBs are overrated or you don't dig and why? 

 

 

 

[Thinking Skins]

16 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

It feels to me nothing like those drafts at least not from my perspective.    It feels really unique.   

 

As for 2019, I think I like 6 QBs in this draft better than every QB in the 2019 draft after Kyler Murray. 

 

As for 2021, you had a clear headliner which this draft doesn't have.    And I was and still am a big Justin Fields guy.  I think he'd be the top QB in this draft.  And coming from a dude who really did like Mac Jones, I think we got 2-3 Qbs in this draft within his range IMO.

 

As for 2011, it doesnt have a headliner like Cam.  But I think the top 6 in this draft let alone just top 3 are way more intriguing than Ponder, Gabbert, Locker.  Locker wasn't even good his senior year in college.  Ponder was a shocker showing up in the mid first -- while another team made that mistake, that Ponder pick is very WFT like under Dan, reaching for 2nd round talents in the first. 

I get what you're saying about the top guys in those drafts but after Cam (who we had no shot at) there were a bunch of meh guys who could arguably be the best of the worst. Maybe these guys are more intuiting, but what I was saying about the 2021 draft was that drafts where there are 4 or 5 QBs taken in the first almost never work out. It's not a situation where everybody gets a QB. It's more likely that nobody gets one. 2021 is early but none of those guys is having an exceptional rookie season and only Jones is looking good. I turn back to a bunch of previous years that have been touted as years where we could see 4 or 5 like 2011 and 2019 (although we only saw 3) and those drafts don't look that good in hindsight 

[Skinsinparadise]

34 minutes ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

Okay, I think I get it, but do you judge this year's pick only relative to other picks in this year's draft?  Kinda like a professor curving a grade?

I just worry that we take a swing at a C+ QB and then when he only turns out to be a C+ QB, people say Rivera screwed up and he gets canned.  I guess the alternative is no swing at all, but I think he doesn't get canned for that.

 

Let me explain my point in a different way.  I hate hypoteticals when it comes to discussing QBs when you got specifics in play.  I hated it last year and said so at the time.  I hate it this year, too.  And I am not saying everyone should think about it the way i do.  But we all roll the way we roll.  So this is the way I roll.  So what's where I am coming from. 

 

The way I look at is if you tell me we can pick among these stocks: Apple, Microsoft, Pfizer, Moderna, United Healhcare and Wallmart, yet the conversation turns off of those stocks into a broader theoritical debate - IMO we are off subject.  I hate the idea of ignoring the specifics that are right in front of me.  I can talk about those specific stocks.  So why the heck do I have to turn it into a broad conversation about picking stocks in theory in some kind of broad market type of conversation.   When I can debate the issue with real specifics.  Some do talk specifics.  And i like that.  But the broad discussion to me is off topic and irrelevant. 

 

So the whole idea of a C plus chase.  Or Ron will chase a dude he doesn't love.  It's all nonsense to me.  I don't blame anyone for making the point.   So I got no issue with someone making the point.  I get the logic of it.  If the idea is this is a bad QB class in a macro way.  Why trade up for that theoritical QB?  Yeah I agree with that if its framed that way.  But that discussion point to me is meaningless and irrelevant.  IMO it would be predicated on either one of two points or both.  A.  Ron isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer or he's interested in winning a battle to lose the war.  B.  That it's easy for them to strike out in the draft going after their guy.   I don't buy either point.  

 

To me this draft is actually intriguing.  You got 4 guys with arguably similar ability.  And the next two -- QB 5 and 6 have some intriguing upside.  

 

I get a counter point to that is we can say heck even if they really like Sam Howell -- why give up an RG3 like random to get him.   Is he worth something crazy?  My counter is simply they wouldn't have to give up an RG3 like ransom.  It would unlikely be anything crazy.   It's not like every QB trade involves giving up the store.  

Edited November 24, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

14 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I get what you're saying about the top guys in those drafts but after Cam (who we had no shot at) there were a bunch of meh guys who could arguably be the best of the worst. Maybe these guys are more intuiting, but what I was saying about the 2021 draft was that drafts where there are 4 or 5 QBs taken in the first almost never work out. It's not a situation where everybody gets a QB. It's more likely that nobody gets one. 2021 is early but none of those guys is having an exceptional rookie season and only Jones is looking good. I turn back to a bunch of previous years that have been touted as years where we could see 4 or 5 like 2011 and 2019 (although we only saw 3) and those drafts don't look that good in hindsight 

 

I explained my perspective well on this point in my previous post.  I don't get why we have to be so theoritical.  I hated Haskins and Daniel Jones.  I only loved Kyler Murray in that draft.  I don't feel the same way about dudes who are mentioned often as thre 3rd-4th best Qbs in this draft.   No draft is a perfect representation of another.

 

Just like all the Trask-Mac Jones comparisons last year, they didn't mean anything to me.  When I am watching Sam Howell my thoughts have nothing to do with Daniel Jones.

 

You love talking about QBs.  I am gently prodding you to spend some time watching some of these guys versus just reading about them, I'd put money that you'd enjoy it.    And look if you watch lets say Pickett and you tell me he reminds you of Christian Ponder or whatever -- I'll take the point very seriously but the theoritical stuff to me is meaningless.

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

everything you are saying here is equivalent to: “our first pick is a QB even if it’s a reach. And I think we can trade up no matter what even if the teams ahead don’t want to do business.”

 

I think the idea that we can get a QB no matter what that is also a solid pickup is off-base and a fantasy.

 

If we can, we get them. No questions. If it’s Ridder at 10, I don’t.

 

Nope its not. 

 

My main points are:

 

A.  QB rated 8.5 > LB rated 9.5

 

B.  I think there are 5 QBs that are pretty close.  I think 1-2 of them will fall close enough to our pick.  If you recall many thought Justin Fields would go top 5, he ended up falling more.  Closer to the draft Mac Jones was mentioned anywhere from the 2nd pick in the draft to the 2nd round.  He ended up going mid first.  

 

C.  I think a bunch of these QBs fall in that Mac Jones type of discussion where its a debate whether he's the guy or not.  We can look at that as glass half empty.  But as an example I liked Mac Jones, I saw it as glass half full.  I see some guys in this draft who intrigue me.  It sounded based on the interview with the Junkies with Ron, that they are intrigued too.  It wouldn't be surprise me if they were intrigued by a multitude of targets because this draft is quirkier than most of them IMO at the QB spot. 

 

I am done with the we can win without a QB point and lets keep building the roster.   I defended that tact like a rabid dog in the off season.  I am not going to defend that tact again like a rabid dog if they double down on it unless they win.  I think i am being really nice to Ron.  I've defended everything he's done.  Heck I will even defend him passing on drafting a QB for his first three years which is somewhat unprecedented in a rebuild.  If that's what goes down.  But for me to keep defending him, he can't go 6-11 in 2022.  If he goes no QB and ALSO loses, I am out on defending him. 

 

I think I follow your point, I am not so sure you follow my take but I might be wrong?   Your point seems to be.  There are 2 QBs you dig maybe a #3.  Those guys are going to go early.  So either they will miss out by the QB hungry teams drafting early or they would have to trade a kings ransom to go up that far and you don't love these guys to that degree to do that.   So if the opportunity strikes to go get that dude without giving up a kings ransom, do it.  But you think that will unlikely happen.  Also if by some chance Sam Howell drops to their pick, do that.  But you don't think that likely happens either.  So in short, its an endorsement of what Ron explained their approach was last year at the QB spot.  You think that approach fits now.  You think the time to take a more aggressive approach was ironically last year when he took that approach but he was wrong to do it then.  Is that close?

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Skinsinparadise