The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Skinsinparadise]

56 minutes ago, MartinC said:

Don’t buy the height argument - how tall was Drew Brees? I get that he was maybe an outlier but Howell is 6’ 1” not 5’ 10” (Kyler Murray’s height). His footwork against Dallas seemed much better than some of his College and preseason film and his accuracy against Dallas was good. Processing and decision making will make or break him - and playing behind an iffy O’Line is not ideal in helping this.

 

Brees 6 feet and 1/4, Howell 6 feet 5/8 so pretty close.

 

Greg Cosell talked about this some in the context of Howell.  When asked why he fell so far in the draft, he said something to the extent that asking the people he knows around the NFL -- the QBs who are 6 feet or so without big time mobility are not valued the same way - he mentioned Baker struggiling in recent years has not helped the narrative.  And he menttioned Brees is the ultimate outlier because he's 6 foot and isn't mobile and was great.

 

I talked about this previously on a thread.  But, I haven't really dived in where i looked at QBs height to see if this is a misperception.

 

Regardless, even playing off of that theme, if you are 6 foot or less  that you need really good mobility which is what Cosell said he knows some teams believe.  I think its possible with Howell that he can showcase that mobility.  He's not fast but has good vision and is a decisive runner.  Will see. 

 

For me, I really don't know about Howell.  I like some of his traits.   Some am not sure about.  I am sort of 50-50 on him which I think is on the optimistic side.  Been through the hype train forever with the QBs here.  I recall the SI article like it was yesterday when scouts said that this team found their next Aikman in Heath Shuler.  How Jason Campbell has a strong arm, sneaky mobility, good size and high intangibles.  Ramsey is tough with a strong arm.  Heck, lol, I can recall Kyle touting how he stood on the table to draft John Beck when he was with the Texans and how smart he is, good mobilty on and on.  And most, even Haskins, had some flashes aside from perhaps Beck. 

 

With the power of hindsight, that all seems ridiculous now.  But it definitely didn't feel that way in real time.  They all had a narrative to be optmisitc.  And they all had strong defenders where people including myself were pissy if some of these QBs were challenged that this dude might not be guy. I didn't fall for all of those Qbs but I did with some.  And all of those dudes had strong supporters initially here.   So I've grown a bit cynical about the idea about this one is the one -- but I still remain mostly optimistic.  

 

There is far from consensus on Howell.  I think the stay medium take on Howell would be Cooley and Jordan Reid. Reid played QB in college, ESPN anaylist.  I listened to that below.  He had amost the identical conclusion that Cooley did -- could be a solid starter but doesn't scream franchise QB traits so believes his ceiling is limited.  There are plenty who think Howell won't be good period.  So the idea that he could be average, is not really negative.

 

For me, I do think his mobility is key.   I think if he can go with a heavy RPO based offense and runs like he did in North Carolina, he could be good.  Jalen Hurts has excelled with an RPO heavy offense and is only about half and inch taller than Howell.  But granted Hurts is faster. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

 

EAGAN, Minn. — The Washington Commanders are unlikely to face any penalties stemming from tampering allegations involving retired quarterback Andrew Luck, according to two people familiar with the case.

 

The allegations stemmed from a report published this month that the Commanders had considered Luck last offseason as part of their quarterback deliberations. The Indianapolis Colts retain the contractual NFL rights to Luck, who retired just before the 2019 season at 29.

 

There probably is “not enough hard evidence” of impermissible contact for the Commanders to be penalized, one of the people with knowledge of the case said, adding that the issue probably is “going to fade away” without being pursued further.

 

ESPN reported this month that the Commanders had “even phoned the retired Andrew Luck” last year before they made a trade with the Colts for Carson Wentz. A subsequent version of ESPN’s story said the Commanders had “even phoned about retired Andrew Luck.”

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, MartinC said:

Don’t buy the height argument - how tall was Drew Brees? I get that he was maybe an outlier but Howell is 6’ 1” not 5’ 10” (Kyler Murray’s height). His footwork against Dallas seemed much better than some of his College and preseason film and his accuracy against Dallas was good. Processing and decision making will make or break him - and playing behind an iffy O’Line is not ideal in helping this.

 

Yeah this was my main issue with Cooley's take. I think the height thing has been mostly debunked. Does being 6'4 help some as far as seeing passing lanes? Probably. But I think it's way down the list of concerns. Brees was 6'0, Wilson is 5'11, Murray is 5'9, Bryce Young is 5'10 and he was just taken #1 overall. Howell is taller than all of those guys at 6'1. It's not a big issue for me.

Edited May 22, 2023 by mistertim

[MartinC]

30 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I listened to that below.  He had amost the identical conclusion that Cooley did -- could be a solid starter but doesn't scream franchise QB traits so believes his ceiling is limited.  There are plenty who think Howell won't be good period.  So the idea that he could be average, is not really negative.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I’m very much in wait and see mode. If he develops into a league average starter that would be a lot better QB play than we have had around here for quite a while. League average isn’t good enough to compete for Championships though, and that has to be the goal.
 

I think he’s got enough physical tools to be better than average - but it takes more than physical tools. 

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Yeah this was my main issue with Cooley's take. I think the height thing has been mostly debunked. Does being 6'4 help some as far as seeing passing lanes? Probably. But I think it's way down the list on concerns. Brees was 6'0, Wilson is 5'11, Murray is 5'9, Bryce Young is 5'10 and he was just taken #1 overall. Howell is taller than all of those guys at 6'1. It's not a big concern for me.

 

The height wasn't the main thesis from Cooley.  He didn't go I love Howell but man if only he was taller.   But again he thought he could be decent.  He didn't feel like he is an upper half of the league top QB for a number of reasons.  But he wasn't down on Howell at all.  I've heard Cooley when he's actually down on players and he's brutal.  

 

And like anyone else, he's not always right of course.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Wyvern]

1 hour ago, MartinC said:

Don’t buy the height argument - how tall was Drew Brees? I get that he was maybe an outlier but Howell is 6’ 1” not 5’ 10” (Kyler Murray’s height). His footwork against Dallas seemed much better than some of his College and preseason film and his accuracy against Dallas was good. Processing and decision making will make or break him - and playing behind an iffy O’Line is not ideal in helping this.

I reviewed, several times, the replays of the Dallas-Washington game. Over the course of that game, Howell did not "wow" me.

 

IMHO, Dallas did not play that well on defense which makes me wonder how much Howell can "command" a dominating offense that puts up more points vs opponents than the Washington defense gives up.

 

All our NFC East opponents beefed up their D-Lines; so it will be interesting to see if Howell and his newly rebuilt O-Line can compensate for this. maybe the new offensive schemes of Bienemy get the ball out sooner, with less power-running plays directly between the tackles.

 

My guess is Howell will look like Heinicke, but maybe successfully attempting more of the longer 50-50 passes, but also suffering from  muddled field vision due to the defensive pressure, resulting in more pre-planned scrambling. 

 

Sorry -- but IMHO, Howell has to show more before we annoint him as Washington's franchise QB.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Wyvern

[MartinC]

10 minutes ago, Wyvern said:

 

Sorry -- but IMHO, Howell has to show more before we annoint him as Washington's franchise QB.

I don’t think there are many people anointing him as a franchise QB just yet. Even his strongest supporters in this thread would not do that - he’s got a lot to prove to have that label even suggested for him. I am very much in wait and see mode.

[DWinzit]

At this point, Howell needs to prove he can be a legit starter. There will be a heavy learning curve with many bumps in the best scenario

[tmandoug1]

Kind of hard for any QB to be franchise worthy behind a third rate Oline. Can't continue the QB game with an oline full of third or worst rounders. 

[Commander Chaaarmnder]

Man I miss the days of having a stacked o-line.  
 

What you sacrifice in one area, you gain in another (hopefully).  
 

The same conversation was being has over the years about defense.  Solidify the d-line, it will free up the back end, etc.  

 

Somewhere in between for both sides.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

I still think (most) everyone is sleeping on Howell. 
@Koolblue13 I think your take on Drake Maye vs. Howell is uninformed. First, Drake is a top pick worthy prospect and Howell is below that (in my mind). But to say Maye did way better with the same weapons ain’t true.

 

After his junior year, UNC had the weakest group of skill position players I can ever remember (as a long time fan, we’ve generally had solid backs and receivers). 
 

Maye benefitted from an improved OLine and also a couple of sophomore/freshmen receivers who stepped up to complement Josh Downs. Howell got no such luxury. When Josh Downs went out, he had nowhere to go with the ball. Nowhere. Maye also benefited from a much more diverse and talented RB room.

 

Howell has tremendous arm talent (there’s an effortless appearance to his throws) and underrated vision as a runner. He will score points and put this team in the end zone. 
 

I understand the “wait and see crowd”, but Maye vs. Howell feels like a manufactured criticism by a disgruntled fan in the doldrums of the off-season. 
 

ETA: And all of the “fire Ron for tampering with Andrew Luck!” peeps should step forward and own their ridiculous, knee jerk, over the top reaction to a cooked up story by the most insane owner in the NFL. 😆

Edited May 22, 2023 by AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy

[zCommander]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Heck, lol, I can recall Kyle touting how he stood on the table to draft John Beck when he was with the Texans and how smart he is, good mobilty on and on.  And most, even Haskins, had some flashes aside from perhaps Beck

 

There is far from consensus on Howell.  I think the stay medium take on Howell would be Cooley and Jordan Reid. Reid played QB in college, ESPN anaylist.  I listened to that below.  He had almost the identical conclusion that Cooley did -- could be a solid starter but doesn't scream franchise QB traits so believes his ceiling is limited.  There are plenty who think Howell won't be good period.  So the idea that he could be average, is not really negative.

 

For me, I do think his mobility is key.   I think if he can go with a heavy RPO based offense and runs like he did in North Carolina, he could be good.  Jalen Hurts has excelled with an RPO heavy offense and is only about half and inch taller than Howell.  But granted Hurts is faster. 

 

I absolutely hated Kyle for getting Beck and dumping Colt B. (RIP). Beck was trash and he traded for him from the Ravens. I was shaking my head when he did that. 

 

As for Howell the height don't matter as long as he is accurate, like Brees, and can get the ball quickly to his target accurately. Mobility is not an issue if you are a good pocket passer first and runner second. This is what Howell is to me. Hurts is a running QB but will pass first at least unlike Lamar. I am not big on running QBs. Do care if a QB can move if a play breaks down though. I just want Howell to take 5 or 7 steps back and hit his targets. The OL is a suspect and I know that will force Howell to run some but at least he can do that. The running game will help him also. He might not be fast as Hurts but he can still run with force and knock some of the defenders on the ground in the process. I like his toughness. 

 

I really want and hope Howell gets to play in all 17 games. Really want to see what he can and can not do before we throw in the hat and move on to someone else next year. 

 

I would love for Howell to be in the top 15. Howell really needs to play lights out or at least close to it to be even considered he can be a franchise QB for us. We have a tough schedule this year though. I am excited for Howell but won't get mad if things don't work out though. 

[Conn]

I don’t think people realize how hard it is to succeed as a QB at that height. It doesn’t mean it’s impossible, but there’s a reason why you can name all of the anomalies…it’s a sample size of guys who were good enough anyways to have NFL teams ignore the height. So in a way it’s not surprising that they’re talented despite the height disadvantage. But there’s more to it than that. Murray is uber athletic and quite frankly, not that good a QB. Wilson spent his peak years playing a brand of backyard football as the play broke down afforded to him by his own special mobility, aided by a great run game and defense. Young is an unknown, but clearly talented. Brees…Brees had a warm-up period in this league before being elite, had a legendary HOF work ethic, and still spent his entire career dreaming up new and innovative spatial awareness, eye quickness, and mental agility exercises to help him become preternaturally skilled at finding throwing lanes and throwing with anticipation before having to see the WR or defender. The guy has a computer for a brain and trained himself to know where every single player on the field was at every moment so he didn’t NEED to see to throw. He’s special in an unorthodox way that not many people acknowledge, he came up with custom mental and physical exercises to overcome his own limitations. The articles about it are fascinating. 
 

Anyways, Howell can be great, nothing I’m saying takes away from that. But saying “oh this group of 4-5 QB’s at his height or lower that I can name off the top of my head for a reason being good (mostly) or great means height is not a problem for Howell, nothing to worry about”. No, imo. That’s not the takeaway. The takeaway is that he has a path to success like all of them did, it’s not a crippling concern…but it is a real concern and not everyone threads the needle. 

[KDawg]

It’s amazing what an off-season of disappointment can do to people’s thoughts on a player (Howell). The same people who were all about him/gushing are now more down than up. 
 

It’s kind of strange to see unfold. People’s opinions sway with the breeze. The breeze is blowing against the Commanders so the opinions on Howell are going that direction as well.

 

We’ll see. I’ve never said he is a franchise QB definitively. To say that without sample size and proof is foolish. But I think he can be. And I won’t flip.

[Skinsinparadise]

7 hours ago, Conn said:

 

Anyways, Howell can be great, nothing I’m saying takes away from that. But saying “oh this group of 4-5 QB’s at his height or lower that I can name off the top of my head for a reason being good (mostly) or great means height is not a problem for Howell, nothing to worry about”. No, imo. That’s not the takeaway. The takeaway is that he has a path to success like all of them did, it’s not a crippling concern…but it is a real concern and not everyone threads the needle. 

 

It's sort of my takeaway of Cooley's takeaway of Howell on that front.  He liked some of his traits.  Didn't like some of his other traits inlcuding being OK with it but not loving his accuracy which he imputed to footwork but threw in height in that mix -- implying vision of the field.

 

I know this team ironically puts some value in height because I recall Keim among others selling what he heard they like about Wentz when they acquired him last off season and that included he had the vision that Heinicke did not because of his height -- he referenced throwing lanes especially with shallow crossers in the middle of the field where they said Taylor literally couldn't see those lanes open as fast as they wanted and Wentz with his height could and thereby excel better with those throws. 

 

Greg Cosell articulated the point well once in a podcast as to height and throwing lanes.  He suggested that scouts he talked to don't see it as a deal breaker but they do see it as a barrier and it effects draft status.   He dived into the point ironically specific to Howell.  The loophole that offsets it in a big way according to scouts he talked to are QBs with uber mobility -- Brees being the notable exception.

 

So when Cooley mentioned Howell's height it wasn't his reason for why he didn't think he woud be a top half of the league QB but it was a component in the soup.

 

I am not saying height is the be all and end all.  If anything its becoming a sort of a hipster draft geek position that who cares about size.  But there is some indication that some teams indeed do care about it.

 

Personally, its intuitive to me that especially throwing in the middle of the field above the traffic of 6'3-6'6 O lineman-D lineman that its tougher for a shorter QB than it is a taller one.  So Keim's comment about Wentz-Heinicke as for how the team saw things last off season made sense to me.  Ditto the idea that a key super power of a shorter QB would be mobility -- doesn't have to be running ability, could also be lateral mobility to avoid the rush and create your own throwing lanes with some space. 

 

But in short, (no pun intended) I think it makes sense that. its tougher to be a drop back passer when you have below average height for the position.   Although clearly, height isn't everything.  Plenty of tallish QBs suck of course.   But I'd say height is an attribute. 

 

Bringing this back to Howell.  As much as I disagree with Sheehan on a bunch of QB things.  And I am higher on Howell than he is.  i do agree with something he said recently about him.   And he said it in response to Cooley's take.  Cooley's take I still didn't find negative -- he said average QB, not sucks, not great, average.   That is, Cooley had concerns about Howell's mobility translating from the college to the pros.  I get it because he's not fast.   But Sheehan thinks his mobility will be good.  So do I.   On the small sample so far, it looks like his mobility will translate.

 

So while i somewhat agree with the point that 6 foot pocket passer QBs like Brees who don't move much yet kill it are outliers.  I don't think Howell is in that brand.  I do think he will be closer to that Russell Wilson brand of shortish QBs but who actually bring mobility.  IMO Howell's mobility will be key to the season.  And that gives me the most optimism.  But will see.  Like I said, I almost feel like its a jinx when people get defensive about the du jour QB prospect.  All these guys in real time had feisty defenders.   And the narrative hasn't ended well.  So I go no issue with those like Cooley who are playing it medium. 

Edited May 22, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

7 hours ago, zCommander said:

 

I absolutely hated Kyle for getting Beck and dumping Colt B. (RIP). Beck was trash and he traded for him from the Ravens. I was shaking my head when he did that. 

 

As for Howell the height don't matter as long as he is accurate, like Brees, and can get the ball quickly to his target accurately. Mobility is not an issue if you are a good pocket passer first and runner second. This is what Howell is to me. Hurts is a running QB but will pass first at least unlike Lamar. I am not big on running QBs. Do care if a QB can move if a play breaks down though. I just want Howell to take 5 or 7 steps back and hit his targets. The OL is a suspect and I know that will force Howell to run some but at least he can do that. The running game will help him also. He might not be fast as Hurts but he can still run with force and knock some of the defenders on the ground in the process. I like his toughness. 

 

I really want and hope Howell gets to play in all 17 games. Really want to see what he can and can not do before we throw in the hat and move on to someone else next year. 

 

I would love for Howell to be in the top 15. Howell really needs to play lights out or at least close to it to be even considered he can be a franchise QB for us. We have a tough schedule this year though. I am excited for Howell but won't get mad if things don't work out though. 

 

Of ccurse, i don't want to see him hurt.  But I do want to see him run.  I think QBs need to play to their super powers and him being a runner and a tough one at that is one of his key attributes. 

 

I wan't high on Heinicke but I did think his lateral movement skills and ability to scramble for yards was a key attribute and once he elected not to tap into that attribute, he cemented himself IMO as a QB who struggled.

 

Howell has more going for him as a passer versus Heinicke.   But I do think his ability with RPOs and mobility is necessary to bring out his best.  Mobility and the deep ball.

 

https://www.golongtd.com/p/sam-howell-wants-to-be-the-greatest

 

The fact that Howell had to change up his identity as a quarterback without two 1,000-yard backs and two 1,000-yard receivers last fall is what’s likely scaring some teams. Size, too. At 6 feet, he’ll need to create his own passing windows. But Boone views 2021 as a positive because Howell “unselfishly inserted himself into the run game.” He took a ton of hits on 20-plus carries a game after barely running at all as an ACC gunslinger his first two years.

North Carolina also went 6-7.

“He could’ve been like any other guy who’s done it before,” adds Boone, “and shut it down when things didn’t look great for his team. But he stuck it out with his teammates. He came with the ship and will die with the ship — that’s the kind of guy you want in your organization.”

 

...Time will tell if he’s able to shimmy in the pocket with a Breesian sixth sense for pressure to compensate for his lack of height. When it comes to his size, he’s not special. So many QBs with this 224-pound compact frame turn out to be career backups in the pros. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. After eviscerating the record books at Missouri, 6-foot Chase Daniel has thrown all of eight touchdowns and seven interceptions in 13 NFL seasons… yet has also earned $39.8 million.

Howell’s bar, however, is set quite a bit higher. There’s a detailed plan in the three-time captain’s mind to become the greatest.

 

We shouldn’t undersell his No. 1 physical trait, either: that arm. He’s not quite sure where the raw arm power comes from, only that he’s always been full of the confidence to pull the trigger on any throw to any part of the field. He sees a unmistakable value to the ups and downs at Chapel Hill, too, saying “I’m going to be resilient. That’s just who I am.” Losing games and needing to absorb all those hits in 2021 helped him evolve as a quarterback. And since last season wrapped up, Howell has been studying NFL systems nonstop. North Carolina didn’t ask him to read the whole field as much as he will in the pros. But he’s not concerned. He’s sure he’ll have a “head start” going into any system that drafts him this weekend.

At the core of his game is his heart.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

57 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

The breeze is blowing against the Commanders so the opinions on Howell are going that direction as well.

 

 

Speaking for myself, my opinion on Howell is the same as the start of the off season.  50-50.  I can see it working, can see it not.  I don't have an issue with people like Chris Cooley or Jordan Reid's take which sort of splits the difference and hit squarely the middle of that point.  Will see.  I am more than cool with rolling the dice and seeing what happens with Howell. 

 

What am down on is what they did to help him.   They basically did borderline nothing to help him.  I do like adding Bieniemy but still that requires Howell to learn a new system so that's not some slam dunk easy thing.   The O line looks a hair better as to their starters and worse as to their depth -- factoring the Norwell release which Keim said will happen as soon as he clears medical testing.    

 

The TE room is gambiling on the same group this time staying healthy and developing.  It could happen.  But I admit it annoys me that they skipped one of the top TEs drafts I can recall in eons.

 

I admit I try to caution myself on trying to fully sell myself too hard (not saying you are, you've been mediium) on the QB du jour because its been a bad ride for about 30 years.  So I am a bit more cautious than the past.  Heck even with QBs I didn't like before the draft like Haskins -- when he teased a little at the end of the first season and Rivera started selling he's a new guy as far as work ethic goes, I started thinking well maybe I should give the dude a chance? 

 

I liked Kirk and took more arrows for liking him than any QB we've had and by a mile -- but they threw him out and let him go like he was hot trash.  So that didn't go well for me.   Heck even on Beck I recall he had hype.  They all have.  Heck I worshipped RG3 back io the day which looks ridiculous now so i think i am now by default a stay medium on QBs to keep my sanity.  

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-sports-bog/post/did-kyle-shanahan-want-to-draft-john-beck-10th-in-2007/2011/08/09/gIQAD1xM4I_blog.html

“It wasn’t even close,” Shanahan said back in April. “He has everything you look for in a quarterback. No. 1 you have to love the game, you have to have the mindset. What I’m looking for is a guy first to work and last to leave. You’ve got to be able to run this offense at a very high level. He can do things with his legs that a lot of quarterbacks can’t do.”

And, in a weird coincidence, it turns out that Shanahan’s son — then working for a different organization — also had Beck ranked as the top quarterback that year. This nugget comes from Peter King’s Monday Morning Quarterback column:

“My first year as a position coach in the league, Houston had me scout all the quarterbacks coming out that year,’’ Kyle Shanahan said. “That was the JaMarcus Russell year, with Brady Quinn, Trent Edwards, Kevin Kolb and Beck. So they asked me who I’d pick if I had the 10th pick in the draft. I told them Beck. They said he’s not worth the 10th pick in the draft. I was standing on the table for him. I’ve never seen a guy play that well in college.’

 

 

Edited May 22, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[DWinzit]

Listening to Keim I liked one thing WPs Nicki Jhabvala said that Howell should benefit from somewhat of a QB competition as it will push him.

 

I am crossing my fingers that he proves to become a solid starter. He has all the tools, just needs to learn EBs system and terminology, get familiar with all players and get coached up on footwork, reads and decision making...just like every other QB. 

[Koolblue13]

10 hours ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

I still think (most) everyone is sleeping on Howell. 
@Koolblue13 I think your take on Drake Maye vs. Howell is uninformed. First, Drake is a top pick worthy prospect and Howell is below that (in my mind). But to say Maye did way better with the same weapons ain’t true.

 

After his junior year, UNC had the weakest group of skill position players I can ever remember (as a long time fan, we’ve generally had solid backs and receivers). 
 

Maye benefitted from an improved OLine and also a couple of sophomore/freshmen receivers who stepped up to complement Josh Downs. Howell got no such luxury. When Josh Downs went out, he had nowhere to go with the ball. Nowhere. Maye also benefited from a much more diverse and talented RB room.

 

Howell has tremendous arm talent (there’s an effortless appearance to his throws) and underrated vision as a runner. He will score points and put this team in the end zone. 
 

I understand the “wait and see crowd”, but Maye vs. Howell feels like a manufactured criticism by a disgruntled fan in the doldrums of the off-season. 
 

ETA: And all of the “fire Ron for tampering with Andrew Luck!” peeps should step forward and own their ridiculous, knee jerk, over the top reaction to a cooked up story by the most insane owner in the NFL. 😆

I don't disagree that UNC had a slightly better situation in 22, than 21 and Howell certainly did have a great year. If he was 6'4", maybe he would have been hyped as QB1 last years draft. He was a 1rst rounder in 21's draft as he was.

 

I just don't think that the "lost all of his talent" defense is completely full of merit.

 

Agreed on the Tampering crowd. 

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

It’s amazing what an off-season of disappointment can do to people’s thoughts on a player (Howell). The same people who were all about him/gushing are now more down than up. 
 

It’s kind of strange to see unfold. People’s opinions sway with the breeze. The breeze is blowing against the Commanders so the opinions on Howell are going that direction as well.

 

We’ll see. I’ve never said he is a franchise QB definitively. To say that without sample size and proof is foolish. But I think he can be. And I won’t flip.

I am still high on Howell. I think he has the potential to be very very good.

 

I also think the team has done a lot to put him in the position to fail. Things he struggles with will be amplified. His happy feet will be dancing behind our Line and he won't have a quality TE to bail hi out.

 

It's rare to see a QB bust early, then come back. I'm hoping we don't break him.

 

Steve talks about how most QBs that get drafted should be able to play in the league and the situation makes the difference. I think we flunked the situation.

 

I'm standing on my Winston19 like season.

[samy316]

12 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I don't disagree that UNC had a slightly better situation in 22, than 21 and Howell certainly did have a great year. If he was 6'4", maybe he would have been hyped as QB1 last years draft. He was a 1rst rounder in 21's draft as he was.

 

I just don't think that the "lost all of his talent" defense is completely full of merit.

 

Agreed on the Tampering crowd. 

I am still high on Howell. I think he has the potential to be very very good.

 

I also think the team has done a lot to put him in the position to fail. Things he struggles with will be amplified. His happy feet will be dancing behind our Line and he won't have a quality TE to bail hi out.

 

It's rare to see a QB bust early, then come back. I'm hoping we don't break him.

 

Steve talks about how most QBs that get drafted should be able to play in the league and the situation makes the difference. I think we flunked the situation.

 

I'm standing on my Winston19 like season.

 

That's an excellent point.  Howell could be a legitimate starter, but we haven't done much AT ALL to make sure that he has all the necessary protection and weapons to give himself a chance to be a franchise QB.  That's why this offseason is such a failure for me (excluding the Dan Snyder aspect).  You had a chance to upgrade your porous offensive line to help your young QB and failed.  You also had a chance to upgrade your TE room, and failed at that too.  Two things a young, inexperienced QB needs to be able to compete are a competent O-Line, and a safety valve TE, that can get open and help bail out your offense with a first down, or a TD in the red zone.  Rivera failed spectacularly at improving both those units this offseason.  It's so frustrating to see this unfold in real time.  He's going with the young QB to save his ass, but he's done nothing to help him out.  It's borderline malpractice, and another reason why Rivera should be fired if the team gets off to another one of it's slow starts, with Howell running for his life behind a below average O-Line.

[KDawg]

22 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I don't disagree that UNC had a slightly better situation in 22, than 21 and Howell certainly did have a great year. If he was 6'4", maybe he would have been hyped as QB1 last years draft. He was a 1rst rounder in 21's draft as he was.

 

I just don't think that the "lost all of his talent" defense is completely full of merit.

 

Agreed on the Tampering crowd. 

I am still high on Howell. I think he has the potential to be very very good.

 

I also think the team has done a lot to put him in the position to fail. Things he struggles with will be amplified. His happy feet will be dancing behind our Line and he won't have a quality TE to bail hi out.

 

It's rare to see a QB bust early, then come back. I'm hoping we don't break him.

 

Steve talks about how most QBs that get drafted should be able to play in the league and the situation makes the difference. I think we flunked the situation.

 

I'm standing on my Winston19 like season.

You’re right we flunked the situation part. 

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, DWinzit said:

Listening to Keim I liked one thing WPs Nicki Jhabvala said that Howell should benefit from somewhat of a QB competition as it will push him.

 

I am crossing my fingers that he proves to become a solid starter. He has all the tools, just needs to learn EBs system and terminology, get familiar with all players and get coached up on footwork, reads and decision making...just like every other QB. 

Dudes an underdog about to be an NFL starting QB and nobody outside of half of our fans and a few stragglers think he can do it.

 

If Jacoby Brissett is the motivating factor, we're in trouble.   

 

He's actually a perfect QB for us to have, because he's cool being the back up and helping young guys. It's a perfect situation. 

[Est.1974]

9 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Dudes an underdog about to be an NFL starting QB and nobody outside of half of our fans and a few stragglers think he can do it.

 

If Jacoby Brissett is the motivating factor, we're in trouble.   

 

He's actually a perfect QB for us to have, because he's cool being the back up and helping young guys. It's a perfect situation. 

I think the Brissett likes being a back up talk is overstated. He’s clearly a top professional who’s says and does the right things. 
 

id wager he’s here because he sees the starting gig being very attainable.

[Koolblue13]

We have a top 5 defense with almost everyone returning and I like Forbes and think he's a home run pick. Quan should be good.

 

But with our offense being in question, if we had drafted Mayer/Kincad and then Mauch/Bergeron. Still taken Strom in the third? This would have done wonders.

 

It also allows us to cut Thomas and free up more money to have signed better OL then we did. That would have been a great building block for Sam.

 

Heck, starting Sam and giving him Mayer and JMS to grow up with would have been huge. Go sign McGlintchy for RT instead of the two guys we brought in and this offense looks perennially exciting. 

[philibusters]

14 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

For me, I really don't know about Howell.  I like some of his traits.   Some am not sure about.  I am sort of 50-50 on him which I think is on the optimistic side.  Been through the hype train forever with the QBs here.  I recall the SI article like it was yesterday when scouts said that this team found their next Aikman in Heath Shuler.  How Jason Campbell has a strong arm, sneaky mobility, good size and high intangibles.  Ramsey is tough with a strong arm.  Heck, lol, I can recall Kyle touting how he stood on the table to draft John Beck when he was with the Texans and how smart he is, good mobilty on and on.  And most, even Haskins, had some flashes aside from perhaps Beck. 

 

With the power of hindsight, that all seems ridiculous now.  But it definitely didn't feel that way in real time.  They all had a narrative to be optmisitc.  And they all had strong defenders where people including myself were pissy if some of these QBs were challenged that this dude might not be guy. I didn't fall for all of those Qbs but I did with some.  And all of those dudes had strong supporters initially here.   So I've grown a bit cynical about the idea about this one is the one -- but I still remain mostly optimistic.  

 

There is far from consensus on Howell.  I think the stay medium take on Howell would be Cooley and Jordan Reid. Reid played QB in college, ESPN anaylist.  I listened to that below.  He had amost the identical conclusion that Cooley did -- could be a solid starter but doesn't scream franchise QB traits so believes his ceiling is limited.  There are plenty who think Howell won't be good period.  So the idea that he could be average, is not really negative.

 

 

 

 

Like you, at some point I was excited about Shuler, Frerotte, Ramsey, Campbell, Beck, Haskins, Heincke, and Wentz.

 

And none of them ended up being good QBs.   A few of them didn't reallly ever flash anything (Shuler, Beck, Wentz), but guys like Frerotte, Ramsey, Campbell all showed some flashes where after seeing them play, I wanted to see more.  None of them developed into a franchise QB, but none of them were terrible.  And that may end up being the most likely scenario for Howell.  He flashes some, but is just okay.  He ends up a serviceable starter, but not a franchise guy.  But its the time of year where hope is in the air, so fingers crossed.