The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Koolblue13]

21 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

 

If Brissett wins the job it basically means the Howell potential is gone and we’re stuck in mid purgatory.

 

So, we’ll see.

I think there is a zero % chance that Brissett wins the job. I think we'll see him at some point, but it's clearly Howells job for now.

20 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Never really thought of a Maye/Howell comparison

 

Howell had 3 successful college seasons even though he lost most of his weapons to the NFL in his last season and had OL injuries.

 

 

With two years of experience under his belt, he had a worse year than Maye who has no experience with the same weapons, which is why the "lost his weapons" mantra doesn't hold water. Maye put the same players on his back and lifted the team. Howell did to a point, but not as well and with more experience. 

11 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

I am a bit shocked by it.  I have gone from one of Ron's more enthusiastic defenders -- never loved Ron's work but I liked it and more on point I like him and I still like him as a dude.   

 

But now, I am really pissy about Ron.   to me its sort of like a teenager going to meet his girlfriends parents for the first time and the parents heard mixed things about them.  And instead of dressing to the nines and being on their best behavior -- the teeanger goes to it looking disheveled, comes off a bit rude and blows up that event.  

 

I talked about this on another thread  but part of me wonders if it got to him -- the Russini report about she talked to a prospective ownership group who was talking to Sean Payton.   It's clear as heck that that was likely Harris.    

That's a great analogy. I'd say that the two of us have been two of the loudest supporters around here and it's gone right off the cliff this offseason.

[KDawg]

The off-season screams, “I’m not doing anything of note and leaving the cupboard full for the next guy.”

 

The draft strategy stunk. And we seem to be content with leaving both Howell and. Brissett out to dry with the protection up front. 
 

I’m not totally down because I think Howell is legit and can help carry this team. I think we slightly upgraded OL, but still a bottom third unit. I think our defense is upgraded but similar to where it was (but will have a better ability to force turnovers which is a big help). 
 

The problem there is that the rest of the NFCE got much better on paper while we… slightly improved. But the DLs on the other teams can absolutely eat our OL alive and our DL, well, hasn’t shown they can do that aside from the interior. 
 

Don’t love the strategy or the style. Don’t know entirely who the blame given the sale and everything else going on.

 

But I’m not a fan of what we’re doing whoever it falls on.

 

But I see both the upside and the downside. Unfortunately, I think our downside still has us in the 5-7 win range.

[DWinzit]

6 minutes ago, KDawg said:

The off-season screams, “I’m not doing anything of note and leaving the cupboard full for the next guy.”

 

The draft strategy stunk. And we seem to be content with leaving both Howell and. Brissett out to dry with the protection up front. 

The draft and FA strategy stunk. Just hoping to keep things status quo which leads to a lost season more than likely which sucks. Very disappointing and agree with you points 

[EatsMoreChicken]

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Just listened to Cooley's take on Howell after studying him.  Sheehan replayed it from last year.  Cooley's not bad at QBs, he hated the Haskins (RIP) pick and was one of the rare ones who thought Josh Allen was the best QB in that draft.

 

Howell:  Positives

 

Plays with confidence

Good arm

Quick release

Throws a catchable ball

Creative

Good deep ball

Can move well in the pocket

 

Howell:  Negatives

 

Not much of a progression based offense in NC.  Heavy RPOs

Bounces in the pocket when he throws, happy feat but that makes his accuracy just OK because his base isn't stable

Has a lot of Rex Grossman in him where he throws 50-50 balls, some of those are bad decisions

His size will limit him in the NFL

 

Conclusion.  His ceiling is average QB.  He doesn't think he has the talent to be top 15.   He'd enjoy playing with him but doesn't see anything special.  He doesn't see him starting for another 2 years.  He reminds him a lot of Heinicke with a bigger arm and a lot of Rex Grossman in him.   Some Drew Lock in him.  He thinks his height along with accuracy not being anything hot limits his ceiling.

 

 

Edited May 21, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[DWinzit]

35 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I think there is a zero % chance that Brissett wins the job. I think we'll see him at some point, but it's clearly Howells job for now.

 

With two years of experience under his belt, he had a worse year than Maye who has no experience with the same weapons, which is why the "lost his weapons" mantra doesn't hold water. Maye put the same players on his back and lifted the team. Howell did to a point, but not as well and with more experience. 

 

Fingers crossed that you are correct regarding it being Howell's job to lose! I know they are saying that, just hope they stick with the plan.

 

I understand your points on Maye. I'd argue regarding Howell's lose of huge weapons being replaced with inexperience and Maye gaining most of them with a year under Howell of experience but the whole discussion in useless at this point. Can't wait to see what both will show this season! 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

45 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

The problem there is that the rest of the NFCE got much better on paper while we… slightly improved. But the DLs on the other teams can absolutely eat our OL alive and our DL, well, hasn’t shown they can do that aside from the interior. 

 

that's what kills me.

 

I didn't rewatch the season yet with coaches tape I might do that soon.  But for example listening to the Draft Network team watch some games with coaches tape and comment about how the Giants D line owned this O line -- reverberates with me.  And heck the Giants don't even have the best pass rush in the division.

 

On some counts, this was the least aggressive team in the division as to the off season.  And I can digest that point fine if they addressed the O line but IMO they didn't pull that off.    The Giants added to their depth at D line.  The Cowboys took a DT with the first pick.  And the Eagles added two D lineman in the first round -- and they already had the best pass rush in the league.

 

It's like lets say the O line was the fortress.  The way it comes off to me and plenty of others, we added a few rocks and barely made a dent to upgrade the fortress to make it stronger even though the fortress fell apart previously while our enemies added major cannon fire to blow up the fortress even easier this time.

 

The fact that Ron seems so relaxed about things to the extent that Keim hears their main concern left is LB without mentioning O line -- is beyond befuddiling to me.  And hopefully, his confidence about this is predicated by concrete things versus hope ala hey privately they think Chris Paul is the next Zach Martin or whatever.  I liked Paul in that draft but he's still an unknown.  And considering they are going to release Norwell where is the depth?  I like Daniels as a project but apparently from what I heard that's how they see him too so I don't expect him to play this season.   Supposedly Stromberg might ride the bench this year, too. 

 

As much as Ron stressed that the O line destoyed their season last year -- he's willing to test that again this season.  And its wild to me especially considering they got a young QB and how much Rivera stressed at the start of the off season giving Sam protection is his top priority.

Edited May 21, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

I am higher on Howell than most people.

 

My two biggest fears is one, EB not being a good OC with a young QB, without being under Andy Reid (post turtle). and two, his confidence and happy feat, behind our Oline is going to be a disaster and might crush his confidence. 

 

I said before that I'm expecting a very Winston 19 season from Howell. Lots of big plays and wow throws, yards and TDs, lots of INTs and boneheaded mistakes.

 

I don't see a high side for us, because I don't think there is a playoff scenario for us and getting close to it does nothing for us going forward. We're most likely a double digit loss team. 

[DWinzit]

1 minute ago, Koolblue13 said:

I am higher on Howell than most people.

 

My two biggest fears is one, EB not being a good OC with a young QB, without being under Andy Reid (post turtle). and two, his confidence and happy feat, behind our Oline is going to be a disaster and might crush his confidence. 

 

I said before that I'm expecting a very Winston 19 season from Howell. Lots of big plays and wow throws, yards and TDs, lots of INTs and boneheaded mistakes.

 

I don't see a high side for us, because I don't think there is a playoff scenario for us and getting close to it does nothing for us going forward. We're most likely a double digit loss team. 

This is very fair and a very plausible comparison

The handling of the OL and TE have been poorly handled not giving EB or Howell their best chance to prove themselves

[Going Commando]

Howell is a dimer.  I think Cooley is wrong about him.  The field vision is a weakness, but he puts the ball on the money to all parts of the field and his touch and placement are good IMO, and accuracy issues are more about broader timing issues in the offense.  Field vision shrinks when you have to manage pressure as much as he did final year at UNC and in the Cowboys game.  He's smart and understands how it is to play receiver and he throws such a catchable ball for them that I think it's his main strength, along with his toughness.  He's got the instinct for placement, and when he gets a rapport with good weapons and the time for his options to develop, the result is a ton of touchdowns/big plays.  68 TDs on just 14 ints his first two seasons at UNC.

 

He's going to have to bail a lot of water again this year because our OL is weak, but he has shown the toughness to do it.  He doesn't collapse under pressure.  I think he makes enough big plays to keep his job, score points and win some games, and show promise for the future.

[Going Commando]

Our OL lacks premium talent, but they're going to be far better this year just due to better coaching/calling and continuity.  Not having Turner butcher the offense this year, and in fact replacing him with a strong coach will be huge for them in particular.  And not having Roullier go down midseason won't kill them again.  If Stromberg makes it into the line up, he'll struggle with reads sure, but that dude will play every snap.  Wylie was a solid upgrade at good cost too.  He's an 8 AV player.  He's better than Leno and Leno is a pretty good starter.  Adding a good starter on a cost effective deal in a horrible off-season for OLs that saw equivalent players like Jawaan Taylor get 20 million a year and a draft where there were basically only four good OLs in the entire damn class was doing the best we could.  The OL is just one part of a complex team, and we can compensate for it's relative weakness with our strong weapons and elite defense.

[philibusters]

43 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

Our OL lacks premium talent, but they're going to be far better this year just due to better coaching/calling and continuity.  Not having Turner butcher the offense this year, and in fact replacing him with a strong coach will be huge for them in particular.  And not having Roullier go down midseason won't kill them again.  If Stromberg makes it into the line up, he'll struggle with reads sure, but that dude will play every snap.  Wylie was a solid upgrade at good cost too.  He's an 8 AV player.  He's better than Leno and Leno is a pretty good starter.  Adding a good starter on a cost effective deal in a horrible off-season for OLs that saw equivalent players like Jawaan Taylor get 20 million a year and a draft where there were basically only four good OLs in the entire damn class was doing the best we could.  The OL is just one part of a complex team, and we can compensate for it's relative weakness with our strong weapons and elite defense.

 

How do you figure Wylie is better than Leno.  Wylie probably is a better run blocker, but Leno seems significantly better as a pass blocker.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Going Commando said:

Howell is a dimer.  I think Cooley is wrong about him.  The field vision is a weakness, but he puts the ball on the money to all parts of the field and his touch and placement are good IMO, and accuracy issues are more about broader timing issues in the offense.  Field vision shrinks when you have to manage pressure as much as he did final year at UNC and in the Cowboys game.  He's smart and understands how it is to play receiver and he throws such a catchable ball for them that I think it's his main strength, along with his toughness.  He's got the instinct for placement, and when he gets a rapport with good weapons and the time for his options to develop, the result is a ton of touchdowns/big plays.  68 TDs on just 14 ints his first two seasons at UNC.

 

He's going to have to bail a lot of water again this year because our OL is weak, but he has shown the toughness to do it.  He doesn't collapse under pressure.  I think he makes enough big plays to keep his job, score points and win some games, and show promise for the future.

 

i liked Howell before that draft.

 

I didn't find Cooley's comments that critical.  Sounds like your disagreement is he thinks his accuracy is OK -- so I gather you think his accuracy is really good.

 

I got to back and watch, its been a long-time.  I recall praising him for the deep ball, as Cooley did, and his touch as Cooley did -- and making some wicked 2nd level out routes.  I don't recall having deep thoughts about his accuracy in general.  But maybe i'll rewatch. Or find old posts about it.

 

Cooley had more praise than criticism but he didn't see him as franchise level QB.    For me, i am not sure.

Edited May 21, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

Dallas numbers are inflated because the sample size is smaller but otherwise stats alone paint a picture.

 

Tackles

 

Commanders

Leno:    8 sacks, 4 penalities, 37 pressures

Wylie:   9 sacks, 8 penalities, 49 pressures

 

Combined:

17 sacks

12 penalities

86 pressures

 

Giants

Thomas: 3 sacks, 2 penalities, 21 pressures

Neal:      7 sacks, 7 penalities, 39 pressures

 

Combined

10 sacks

9 penalities

60 pressures

 

Eagles

Mailata: 6 sacks, 7 penalities, 38 pressures

Johnson: 0 sacks, 6 penalities, 9 pressures

 

Combined

6 sacks

13 penalities

47 pressures

 

Cowboys

Smith: 1 sack, 0 penalities, 9 pressures

Steele: 1 sack, 6 penalities, 20 pressures

 

Combined

2 sacks

6 penalities

29 pressures

[XxSpearheadxX]

If Sam Howell ends up being the real deal then I will join him in only eating chicken fingers during 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

 

That's a great analogy. I'd say that the two of us have been two of the loudest supporters around here and it's gone right off the cliff this offseason.

 

 Yep.  We both even talked about the idea last off season that they'd go for the kill in off season season 4.  Keim alluded to that being their mindset.

 

It didn't happen.  And i get new ownership limited them.  But they still had some cap flexibility and enough draft capital to make some moves.

 

They created the perfect bad off season.

 

A.  They didn't IMO likely fix the O line which will likely both ensure they have a losing season and won't set up Howell well for success.

 

B.  They didn't give a single piece of red meat for new ownership as to selling tickets -- not a single player in the draft or single move like setting themsleves up for the 2024 draft, etc.

 

I am not hung up on point B at all.  But if they don't do point A -- B might save them for different reasons. 

 

In short, I think they set themselves up for a meh season and the only excitement that they set up for 2024 at this point of time is the prospect of cleaning house.  So lol, it feels like Ron set up his own job death warrant.  And I've not being able to get over it, yet.  

 

 

Edited May 21, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Warhead36]

Franchise QBs are extremely rare. The chances Howell becomes one is pretty low, but the chances of anyone developing one isn't great. Even guys drafted high in the 1st round bust at like, what, 75%+ rate?

[Anselmheifer]

I’m rooting hard for Howell. If he’s really good, like, Kirk Cousins level good, the team becomes very easy to make immediately relevant. One off-season of heavy OL and ILB investment would do it. Maybe a TE. 

[Cool Hwhip]

I usually appreciate Cooley's input, but do not really agree with him at all when it comes to Howell. Kid makes plays and knows how to get a team down the field. Will he make some mistakes? Sure. Does having a subpar OL hinder his growth? Absolutely. However, I think the kid is gonna surprise a lot this season. I have been following him since his high school days, through college, and till now.

 

He is our QB 1 and I have confidence he can do some good things going forward.

[Skinsinparadise]

15 minutes ago, Cool Hwhip said:

I usually appreciate Cooley's input, but do not really agree with him at all when it comes to Howell. Kid makes plays and knows how to get a team down the field. Will he make some mistakes? Sure. Does having a subpar OL hinder his growth? Absolutely. However, I think the kid is gonna surprise a lot this season. I have been following him since his high school days, through college, and till now.

 

He is our QB 1 and I have confidence he can do some good things going forward.

 

lol, i guess either I communicated poorly about Cooley's take or the thought is some here strongly believe Howell is going to be a top shelf franchise QB.

 

Cooley didn't say Howell sucks.  He saw him as potentially a middle of the road QB -- he didn't see him as a top shelf QB.   

 

So a disagreement with Cooley I gather is having a strong belief that Howell is indeed our franchise QB -- one of the better QBs in the league. 

 

I was relatively high on Howell, though not the highest among the people on the draft thread about him -- but still i don't think I can feel today with confidence that he is a franchise QB, likely one of the better QBs in the league.  That feels very wildcard to me. 

 

I'd summarize Cooley's take is he thinks he has some things to work on, not a plug and play (last season) but ultimately could be an average Qb starter.    Didn't feel like he saw him as a likely bust and for that matter a dude who will be a top shelf QB.  He seemed to feel average.  He played it medium on him. 

Edited May 21, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

58 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Franchise QBs are extremely rare. The chances Howell becomes one is pretty low, but the chances of anyone developing one isn't great. Even guys drafted high in the 1st round bust at like, what, 75%+ rate?

 

Agree.  That's why I am surprised some have a beef with Cooley.  When he thought a QB was meh, he'd outright say it ala back then about Haskins (RIP).   He was actually pretty early on RG3, the 2014 version of him, not having it in this new style of play, among other things.

 

He's brutally honest for better or worse.  So him basically saying Howell has a decent shot to be an average starter but he doesn't see greatness -- he doesn't see a franchise QB in him but can see him be a starter -- I don't get how that's really that much of an intense take.  

 

If you pull a QB starter in the draft especially in the mid rounds, that's a success.

 

I am not sure myself one way or another about Howell.  But Cooley's take didn't feel controversial -- it was actually a pretty rare middle of the road type of opinion from Cooley.  Usually, his takes have strong landings.  This one wasn't that strong.  He seems to think he has a high floor -- but not high enough ceiling where he sees franchise QB.

 

I forgot to add his comp also was with Baker Mayifeld, he gets why the two are compared.  

Edited May 21, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[skinny21]

I don’t find Cooley’s take controversial at all.  And obviously the odds are much greater Howell doesn’t reach top 15 (let alone franchise qb status) than the odds he does.

With that said…

1) we have evidence his footwork has markedly improved - from Martz’s observations, staff comments, and from Howell himself.  How much has it improved?  How much more will it improve?  I’ve no idea.

2) that footwork obviously ties into accuracy.  I didn’t get the impression Howell was an inaccurate passer in college, and now we have some positive evidence about his accuracy in the pros - from the Dallas game and player/staff comments from practices.

3) the height issue - I think it’s a fair concern/knock.  I think it’s fair to bring up Brees and Russ in this context, but also fair to point out that’s just 2 exceptions to the “rule”.  

4) the stuff about not taking snaps under center, the heavy RPO stuff, etc… I mean, it brings up a fair concern, but it’s also something a lot of qbs have faced.  Might hold him back, might not.

 

Overall, aside from the height issue, it sure seems that player mentality (work ethic, coachability, etc) coupled with legitimate support (good coaching, trust, patience, etc) can overcome/improve any of the other issues.

Personally, I just don’t see a reason to put a ceiling on him, because (as far as I know) there’s nothing you can point to that is a glaring, unfixable issue (besides height).  Like I said, odds are he’s not the answer for us, but I also don’t think we can definitively say Howell can’t play to the level of Prescott, Goff, or even Herbert/Wilson in his prime.  

Frankly, my bigger concerns are the support he receives - from the oline, regime change, the possibility of not having consistency from the OC position, and the chances we chase a better regarded qb.

[HTTSkins]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Agree.  That's why I am surprised some have a beef with Cooley.  When he thought a QB was meh, he'd outright say it ala back then about Haskins (RIP).   He was actually pretty early on RG3, the 2014 version of him, not having it in this new style of play, among other things.

 

He's brutally honest for better or worse.  So him basically saying Howell has a decent shot to be an average starter but he doesn't see greatness -- he doesn't see a franchise QB in him but can see him be a starter -- I don't get how that's really that much of an intense take.  

 

If you pull a QB starter in the draft especially in the mid rounds, that's a success.

 

I am not sure myself one way or another about Howell.  But Cooley's take didn't feel controversial -- it was actually a pretty rare middle of the road type of opinion from Cooley.  Usually, his takes have strong landings.  This one wasn't that strong.  He seems to think he has a high floor -- but not high enough ceiling where he sees franchise QB.

 

I forgot to add his comp also was with Baker Mayifeld, he gets why the two are compared.  

Mack Brown said “he has some Baker Mayfield in him” in 2018

[D’Pablo]

Couple caveats to Cooley's take- 1. It only evaluated Howell's senior year, without looking at any of his games with competent o-line play; 2. It was done before the Dallas game and Howell had a chance to clean up his footwork and operate in a multi-read offense.

[MartinC]

10 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Just listened to Cooley's take on Howell after studying him.  Sheehan replayed it from last year.  Cooley's not bad at QBs, he hated the Haskins (RIP) pick and was one of the rare ones who thought Josh Allen was the best QB in that draft.

 

Howell:  Positives

 

Plays with confidence

Good arm

Quick release

Throws a catchable ball

Creative

Good deep ball

Can move well in the pocket

 

Howell:  Negatives

 

Not much of a progression based offense in NC.  Heavy RPOs

Bounces in the pocket when he throws, happy feat but that makes his accuracy just OK because his base isn't stable

Has a lot of Rex Grossman in him where he throws 50-50 balls, some of those are bad decisions

His size will limit him in the NFL

 

Conclusion.  His ceiling is average QB.  He doesn't think he has the talent to be top 15.   He'd enjoy playing with him but doesn't see anything special.  He doesn't see him starting for another 2 years.  He reminds him a lot of Heinicke with a bigger arm and a lot of Rex Grossman in him.   Some Drew Lock in him.  He thinks his height along with accuracy not being anything hot limits his ceiling.

 

 

Don’t buy the height argument - how tall was Drew Brees? I get that he was maybe an outlier but Howell is 6’ 1” not 5’ 10” (Kyler Murray’s height). His footwork against Dallas seemed much better than some of his College and preseason film and his accuracy against Dallas was good. Processing and decision making will make or break him - and playing behind an iffy O’Line is not ideal in helping this.