The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[SoCalSkins]

1 minute ago, illone said:

 

 

You must be an Ohio State fan or something, cuz this is a wild take... 

 

Plus, I thought wins meant nothing in college.  So which one is it.. Are wins important, or not?

Give me Caleb, Maye, JJ, Penix, Nix, Rattler or Milton just not Daniels. The rest have varying degrees of a chance not to be a bust. Daniels does not. 

[Skinsinparadise]

The fun one for sure, I acknowledge that

 

 

[SoCalSkins]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

The fun one for sure, I acknowledge that

 

 

There would be a lot to talk about here from day1 as well. We can even get started now. I think Marriotta is a much better option so I think he should start over Daniels. 
 

😂 

[Rufus T Firefly]

6 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

The argument being that Daniels cannot improve further or somehow is limited in how much he can improve. Which I just don't buy. There is a lot he can get better at. He likely is near his physical peak. But mentally? And QB play is between the ears. Or it was until the ultimate specimen Drake Maye stepped up. 

You do a brilliant job in rebutting the argument that you invented. Bravo.

[illone]

2 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

Give me Caleb, Maye, JJ, Penix, Nix, Rattler or Milton just not Daniels. The rest have varying degrees of a chance not to be a bust. Daniels does not. 

 

 

We're on the same page.  I hope Daniels goes to the Giants 😂

[Voice_of_Reason]

22 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

Not just for this take.  Just life in general. 

[Llevron]

1 minute ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

You do a brilliant job in rebutting the argument that you invented. Bravo.

 

So what are we implying when we say that one has a higher celling and one is ready now then? I actually thought that what we were saying. 

[SoCalSkins]

4 minutes ago, illone said:

 

 

We're on the same page.  I hope Daniels goes to the Giants 😂

We should draft the other former Michigan QB Milton in a later round and pair him with the 4.3 WR from Texas. Have him throw it 80 yards every time. It’s as good as a punt if it gets picked! 

 

That’s what I call exciting. Not a twig running and getting snapped in 2…

[mistertim]

31 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

I am poking fun at the argument, but I'm not trying to mock you. Mock as in I think you or your argument is stupid. No, I think it has value. I just think it lacks depth and context. And if im  going to be fully honest I think you are a little biased, but clearly you are trying to elevate past that which I appreciate. So no not mocking you or anyone else I just want that to be clear. Im not smart enough to mock anyone here but SoCal lol 

 

My hang up with your argument (that I have offered up multiple times for the record) is the assumption that it is a tendency of Daniels and not a product of any of the other factors at play. His coaches literally are saying they coached him to do it. And it bothers me that somehow its a negative, when he is legitimately creating explosive plays. You and I have discussed this enough to understand each others position though. I have even gone as far as to post professionals who are making an effort to be non biased breaking down plays to show some of these things. Which is why I'm not making the argument with you anymore. We both understand and disagree with each other position. Its cool! 

 

And I argue my post is hyperbole. I think you have literally argued everything I said in it.

 

It very well could be other factors at play. IIRC his coach from ASU stated something along the lines of he was coached to run. Not sure if anyone said that with LSU, though. The problem with that is that, even though he may have been coached to do it, at least early on, it's still all we have to go on.

 

So we don't know if he would do that if left to his own devices. We don't know how easily it could be coached out of him. We don't know if pulling his eyes down is an instinct thing or a coaching thing.

 

Sort of like the lack of tight window and anticipation throws. He has done it, but not much. So we have no clue if it's something he can do consistently like he'll have to at the NFL level. What's on the tape is what's on the tape, and on tape he bails very quickly when pressured.

 

And yes, the same thing can be said for Maye and his footwork and short area accuracy issues. He has done it, but we don't know if it can be fixed or how easily. But that's where I weigh those things and personally think that the issues Maye has aren't quite as daunting when it comes to unknowns, but obviously opinions between the two will vary.

 

As far as it being a negative vs positive, it's sort of like a guy who has a huge arm and often throws ill-advised bombs into coverage. When it works, it's awesome and a huge "wow" play. When it doesn't work, it's just a big cringe.

 

The running quickly thing worked well for Daniels in college because he was just so much more gifted than most of the guys he was playing against. But IMO he's going to be facing a much tougher time in the NFL if he runs that often when pressured (and since he's probably going to get pressured much more in the NFL than he did at LSU). Even if he does manage to pick up some really good runs, he's still going to get hit a lot, just by the nature of basically turning into a RB when he bails from the pocket and takes off. And with a guy with his frame, every single hit is going to have us all wincing and watching to see if he gets up this time.

Edited April 11 by mistertim

[wit33]

23 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

And that's why I have no interest in hearing things like "most coaches think.." in this context. Coaches and players for obvious reasons are always concerned about the short-term. The whole Herm "you play to win the game" mindset. Most of the arguments for Daniels center around how much better he will be now, not in the long-term. Which, imo, is not at all where the team's mindset should be. 

It's fascinating how there's now a growing acceptance of the idea that Daniels has the highest floor and is most ready to make an instant impact. The narrative surrounding elite dual-threat quarterbacks is evolving, which is pretty cool to see. Now, the focus is shifting towards questioning the ceiling of dual-threat quarterbacks and less the floor, which is becoming a popular topic of discussion.

Edited April 11 by wit33

[jg77]

16 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

Give me Caleb, Maye, JJ, Penix, Nix, Rattler or Milton just not Daniels. The rest have varying degrees of a chance not to be a bust. Daniels does not. 

Because he's in the way of your guy getting drafted you dislike him that much?

 

Milton over Daniels is laughable.  C'mon now.  

[illone]

Just now, SoCalSkins said:

We should draft the other former Michigan QB Milton in a later round and pair him with the 4.3 WR from Texas. Have him throw it 80 yards every time. It’s as good as a punt if it gets picked! 

 

That’s what I call exciting. Not a twig running and getting snapped in 2…

 

 

Milton could be lined up at WR for end around flea flickers. We already know JJ can catch it one handed so he can go deep.

 

This is already better than Zorn's swinging gate OR Jayden Daniels blue tent. 

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

23 minutes ago, illone said:

You must be an Ohio State fan or something, cuz this is a wild take... 

How so?

26 minutes ago, illone said:

Plus, I thought wins meant nothing in college.  So which one is it.. Are wins important, or not?

Super important if you put the team on your back and lead them to wins. Not important if you are along for the ride while the rest of your team does the work.

[rockluc]

20 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

The fun one for sure, I acknowledge that

 

 

Personally I find winning more fun than watching YouTube highlight videos while waiting for our qb to come back from his latest injury but that might just be me. 🤷‍♂️ 

[Llevron]

6 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

It very well could be other factors at play. IIRC his coach from ASU stated something along the lines of he was coached to run. Not sure if anyone said that with LSU, though. The problem with that is that, even though he may have been coached to do it, at least early on, it's still all we have to go on.

 

So we don't know if he would do that left to his own devices. We don't know how easily it could be coached out of him. We don't know if pulling his eyes down is an instinct thing or a coaching thing.

 

Sort of like the lack of tight window and anticipation throws. He has done it, but not much. So we have no clue if it's something he can do consistently like he'll have to at the NFL level. What's on the tape is what's on the tape, and on tape he bails very quickly when pressured.

 

And yes, the same thing can be said for Maye and his footwork and short area accuracy issues. He has done it, but we don't know if it can be fixed or how easily. But that's where I weigh those things and personally think that the issues Maye has aren't quite as daunting when it comes to unknowns, but obviously opinions between the two will vary.

 

As far as it being a negative vs positive, it's sort of like guys who has a huge arm and often throw ill-advised bombs into coverage. When it works, it's awesome and a huge "wow" play. When it doesn't work, it's just a big cringe.

 

The running quickly thing worked well for Daniels in college because he was just so much more gifted than most of the guys he was playing against. But IMO he's going to be facing a much tougher time in the NFL if he runs that often when pressured (and since he's probably going to get pressured much more in the NFL than he did at LSU). Even if he does manage to pick up some really good runs, he's still going to get hit a lot, just by the nature of basically turning into a RB when he bails from the pocket and takes off. And with a guy with his frame, every single hit is going to have us all wincing and watching to see if he gets up this time.

 

Hey man, I get your point and you don't have to argue with me. I am not trying to change your mind. You asked me why I didn't offer a counter point and I told you. That's it. We could do this into infinity or we can wait on the NFL results and then argue about those. I plan to see what they do next. 

 

Honestly I hope he is not drafted here cause I think the real factor for success is the organization around the player. And whoever is here, I expect will be well above average, and we can focus on them. I don't really care about Jaden Daniels. 

[Dah-Dee]

25 minutes ago, mistertim said:

IIRC his coach from ASU stated something along the lines of he was coached to run. Not sure if anyone said that with LSU, though. The problem with that is that, even though he may have been coached to do it, at least early on, it's still all we have to go on.

 

LSU HC Brian Kelly did say more than once, in early-2023 interviews/comments, that although they knew he wanted to improve as a passer, Daniels' legs were too much a weapon in 2022 to not use and they were still trying to find a balance (I think they failed him there) between helping him grow and doing whatever it took to win. Kelly also said a lot of 2022 was just Daniels learning their offense, which was a lot more complex than ASU - and remember, Daniels was not promised the starting job when he transferred to LSU, and they went all the way through spring practices with like 5 guys competing and splitting reps, so Daniels didn't get starter-level attention until pretty close to the start of that first season at LSU.

 

In more recent articles, both Kelly and Denbrock said Daniels came to them after the 2022 season and asked what he needed to improve, telling them he wanted to throw for 4,000 yards in 2023 (didn't quite hit that goal), which is when the LSU coaches created a more concrete development plan for him that included the VR system both coaches and Daniels have credited with improving his pre/post-snap processing and his progressions. I saw where the QB coach actually lamented at one point their decision to use the VR at 1.5X speed with Daniels, because it resulted in him going through progressions too quickly.

 

Edit: I really really wish we could find stuff like this on Maye, I like the backstories on these guys, makes it all more interesting. For example, we know Maye has worked for some time with big name QBs like Rivers and Manning (and, well, Daniel Jones), but there's just not much info out there about related improvements or even what specific things they worked on.

Edited April 11 by Dah-Dee

[SoCalSkins]

12 minutes ago, jg77 said:

Because he's in the way of your guy getting drafted you dislike him that much?

 

Milton over Daniels is laughable.  C'mon now.  

I don’t have a guy. I prefer Maye of the likely available options  but have put his bust chance at 90%. I think Caleb has a 85% bust chance. JJ and the others between 95 and 99%. Jayden I have at 99.999999% bust chance so essentially guaranteed bust. 
 

Milton has far greater upside than Daniels at the NFL level. Daniels is guaranteed to be injured every year. It’s simple physics. The hits he takes will knock him out every season. The dude is not built for the pro game. 
 

Penix and Nix can ball. Might not translate to the NFL game either but they are good players. I 100% would put them above Daniels. 

Edited April 11 by SoCalSkins

[illone]

13 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

How so?

 

 

Most of your JJ takes are cute and funny. But I think the only way you could actually hate the guy this much is if he did something to you personally, so I'm guessing he cut your heart out twice 😂

[Dah-Dee]

Sorry, messed up edit on prior post.

 

Here, I know somebody in this thread has a crush on Frelund, so enjoy a new clip talking about Maye:

 

https://www.nfl.com/videos/baldinger-reveals-his-main-concern-with-drake-maye-path-to-the-draft

 

Baldinger reveals his main 'concern' with Drake Maye | 'Path to the Draft'

NFL Network's Brian Baldinger, Cynthia Frelund, Robert Trubin and Rhett Lewis discuss some of the aspects of North Carolina QB Drake Maye's game that have them a little worried ahead of the 2024 NFL Draft.

 

Bonus: 

 

 

Edited April 11 by Dah-Dee

[Ghost of]

 

1 hour ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

Power ball numbers are random. The numbers would be easier to predict if they stayed relatively consistent for three years like JJ McCarthy’s stats have. The kid has never… literally NEVER led his team to even one win.

Three years? JJ McCarthy started two full seasons and did backup duty in his first year of play in 2021. 

 

And he drove out the QB of a CFP team because the talent differential (physically) was that much higher and he was a better QB and leader.

 

[actorguy1]

Just remember, 75% of the fan base follows the team casually. As far as they know, Schefter said they are leaning Daniels. They will watch one highlight reel on YouTube and will assume this is definitely happening and they are fine with it.

Edited April 11 by actorguy1

[Llevron]

The whole "I hope Dann Quinn and GMAP dont get fooled cause I know its their first time" thing is pretty weird to me though. Like, gotta pick the guy i like or its obvious they were tricked! 

 

Lol wut guys? Come on lol 

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

14 minutes ago, illone said:

Most of your JJ takes are cute and funny. But I think the only way you could actually hate the guy this much is if he did something to you personally, so I'm guessing he cut your heart out twice 😂

I’m not saying that he’s never led his team to a win because of my personal feelings toward the guy. I’m saying it because he never led his team to a win. You don’t see teams drafting the Michigan kicker just because he happened to be the kicker on the best team or drafting the Michigan long snapper… Wait, actually, let’s not go there.

[Going Commando]

32 minutes ago, illone said:

This is already better than Zorn's swinging gate OR Jayden Daniels blue tent. 

 

Speaking of which, did anyone else notice that Jayden's mom was in the blue tent with him when he got hurt in the Alabama game?  That's not normal right?  This dude's relationship with his mom is weird.

[Ghost of]

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

 

The way analytics are often pushed by the masses is lazy. They should be used as part of the overall player analysis, but too often, mathematical metrics are presented as absolute truth without proper context. They're then used as a major reason to dismiss a player in fan forums. This has been a primary argument against Daniel, while the prospect you support faces similar scrutiny.

 

I understand you apply nuance and context to explain how Maye can overcome it, but you fail to provide Daniel with similar consideration. The presentation lacks depth, and there's been a lack of effort to break down the sacks and provide personal context. Some in the media have, like Sheehan who I’ve heard provide some personal context to the stat that I appreciate. 

 

 

Take a look at how often a guy's ratio carries over in some way to the pros. Mahomes pretty much mirrors his college career. Now, maybe Mac Jones was protected by being at Alabama. But then one might wonder if Jayden Daniels had a similar situation last year.  You are saying that the presentation lacks depth and maybe in an individual post that's true, but what about these numbers fills you with hope that a guy who is career at the bottom (though PFF weights the grade somehow--don't know in what way) of QBs in the last several years is somehow the one shining exception?  Like yes, he may still come in and be good like Burrow. but look at that list---it's just Burrow.