The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[wit33]

Just now, Conn said:

 

There is nothing earth-shaking about achieving average-level results.

 

I don’t think it deserves to cause an earthquake, but reaching an average level, or to put it more precisely, being the 16th best scoring offense six games into the season with a young QB and a new offense, deserves praise in my opinion.

 

Just now, Conn said:

 

Many teams manage it without getting their QB killed and still consistently miss the playoffs. It being “year 1” of EB + Howell doesn’t change that.

 

 

If you think this is the highest point we can reach, I can understand your perspective to some extent.

 

Attaining mid-tier scoring production with a QB earning less than $1 million per season holds substantial value.

 

Just now, Conn said:

And because it came during year 4 of Rivera it matters even less. Too little, too mediocre, too late.

 

Ron doesn’t play a role in this discussion from my perspective, but I’m not suggesting you should or shouldn’t consider it. I understand your viewpoint.
 

Just now, Conn said:

 

If Howell is the real deal, we’ll see him reach his ceiling under the next staff.

 

I’d be surprised if he gets another legitimate opportunity in Washington with a completely new front office and coaching staff. Perhaps there’s a slim chance, but I’d estimate it at around 10%.
 

Just now, Conn said:

And hopefully then the bar will be higher than “average-level” and “top-15” in a field of 32 teams. Middle of the pack offensive production on a rookie contract is certainly worth much more than middle of the pack offensive production on an expensive veteran contract, which I know is your main concern. But it still gets you nowhere in this league. 

 

One of the primary reasons I’m fully on board with EB is because he has no interest in settling for mediocrity. He backs it up on game day with aggressive play-calling, even when others advocate for a conservative, yawn-inducing approach. I can’t stand playing it safe and believe that’s what we’ve had to endure for the most part over the years.

 

Let’s embrace an offense that demands Howell to manage 40-50 pass attempts per game and all the sacks that come with it. It’s a sink or swim mentality.

[MartinC]

Let’s see how the rest of the season works out.
 

If he/we can get the sack issue under control I think he’s going to be the guy going into next season as well personally. I’d certainly look to build around him and see if he can continue to develop.
 

Partly because it’s likely we won’t be in a position to get one of the top two QB prospects anyway. 
 

If Sam only continues to play at his current level, and he should actually continue to improve and he can stay healthy (big if given the hits he’s taking) we should around .500. That means we will be drafting early teens say. 
 

Thats too low to realistically be able to get into the top two picks. 
 

Stick with Sam, get him an line and a running game and drill into him it’s OK to take the underneath stuff from time to time!

[MartinC]

The Saints are paying Carr $30M for what he’s ‘producing’ this season and are committed to paying him $30M for next season. 
 

The Browns are paying Watson $46M a year -

all fully guaranteed.

 

Broncos are paying Wilson over $40M a year on average over the first 3 years of his deal.

 

i wouldn’t trade Howell straight up for any of them if they brought those contracts with them - and maybe not on any terms come to that. 
 

If we can get the sacks under control I’m excited about Howell. I certainly don’t want to be paying 35-40M a year for a veteran retread. 

[Conn]

58 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Attaining mid-tier scoring production with a QB earning less than $1 million per season holds substantial value.

 

Only if the rest of your team is elite. Ours is not close. (Obviously it’s still better than equivalent production from a more expensive QB).  

 

58 minutes ago, wit33 said:

I’d be surprised if he gets another legitimate opportunity in Washington with a completely new front office and coaching staff. Perhaps there’s a slim chance, but I’d estimate it at around 10%.

 

It’s very unlikely we’ll have a realistic shot at substantially upgrading so I think this is really lowballing it. Assuming Howell makes it through the season healthy and doesn’t implode, it’s likely he ends up getting at least a chance to be a transitional year 1 QB under a new staff—and then anything can happen. Highly doubt a new GM comes in here and immediately mortgages the future of a middling at best roster for a shot at a top prospect. 

 

 

58 minutes ago, wit33 said:

One of the primary reasons I’m fully on board with EB is because he has no interest in settling for mediocrity. He backs it up on game day with aggressive play-calling, even when others advocate for a conservative, yawn-inducing approach. I can’t stand playing it safe and believe that’s what we’ve had to endure for the most part over the years.

 

Let’s embrace an offense that demands Howell to manage 40-50 pass attempts per game and all the sacks that come with it. It’s a sink or swim mentality.

EB is doing nothing to advance your desired agenda other than calling a million passing plays. He’s doing nothing special or interesting or even helpful to Howell, schematically, to warrant anyone being “fully on board” with him. He’s literally just dialing up lots of pass plays. Its fine to like that. I tend to agree that for better or worse, it’s putting Howell through the fire to see if he can make it through unburnt. But the scheme doesn’t have guys running open downfield, doesn’t provide quick outlets to beat the pass rush, it doesn’t confuse opposing defenses, it squanders the few running opportunities it provides with poor play sequencing, it under-uses play action and motion—two integral parts to all the best, most progressive passing offenses in the league today. He’s calling a 2007 shotgun offense like it’s 2023, basically. So Howell is getting tons of dropbacks like you desire but they aren’t in a system that is doing him any favors. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Conn

[Warhead36]

42 minutes ago, MartinC said:

The Saints are paying Carr $30M for what he’s ‘producing’ this season and are committed to paying him $30M for next season. 
 

The Browns are paying Watson $46M a year -

all fully guaranteed.

 

Broncos are paying Wilson over $40M a year on average over the first 3 years of his deal.

 

i wouldn’t trade Howell straight up for any of them if they brought those contracts with them - and maybe not on any terms come to that. 
 

If we can get the sacks under control I’m excited about Howell. I certainly don’t want to be paying 35-40M a year for a veteran retread. 

The way I see it, unless you have a real star QB, its better to have an average guy on a league minimum salary than a guy who might be pretty good but have to pay $30+ Mil to.

 

Like, I'd rather have Howell on a rookie contract than someone like Cousins or Dak on their ridiculously expensive contracts. 

 

That is of course assuming we can use that freed up money to bolster the rest of the offense. Gotta go ham on OL this off season.

[Voice_of_Reason]

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

For whatever it’s worth, those aren’t the PFF numbers Galdi gave out in his pod this morning.  Or it could have been yesterday.  
 

I don’t remember exactly what they were but I remember thinking “hey, that’s actually more skewed to a Howell issue than an OL issue than even I thought.”

 

I’m not going back to try and find it, but either there are conflicting stats from PFF or one of these two are reading them wrong. 
 

I’ll “PS” this post by saying I don’t really care.  Sam holds onto the ball too long at times and the OL falls over backwards at times and WRs don’t get separation at times and all this together leads to a zillion sacks. 

And I don’t need analytics or PFF or even Chris Cooley to prove that to me. It’s clear as day of you watch the games.   Every phase has to be better to bring the sack number down.  

4 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

The way I see it, unless you have a real star QB, its better to have an average guy on a league minimum salary than a guy who might be pretty good but have to pay $30+ Mil to.

 

Like, I'd rather have Howell on a rookie contract than someone like Cousins or Dak on their ridiculously expensive contracts. 

 

That is of course assuming we can use that freed up money to bolster the rest of the offense. Gotta go ham on OL this off season.

I’d rather have Howell right now than Dak or Carr anyway.  Younger, still developing and pretty good.

 

7 games in, not much to complain about.  Except the damn sacks.  

[FootballZombie]

3 hours ago, Conn said:

EB is doing nothing to advance your desired agenda other than calling a million passing plays. He’s doing nothing special or interesting or even helpful to Howell, schematically, to warrant anyone being “fully on board” with him. He’s literally just dialing up lots of pass plays. Its fine to like that. I tend to agree that for better or worse, it’s putting Howell through the fire to see if he can make it through unburnt. But the scheme doesn’t have guys running open downfield, doesn’t provide quick outlets to beat the pass rush, it doesn’t confuse opposing defenses, it squanders the few running opportunities it provides with poor play sequencing, it under-uses play action and motion—two integral parts to all the best, most progressive passing offenses in the league today. He’s calling a 2007 shotgun offense like it’s 2023, basically. So Howell is getting tons of dropbacks like you desire but they aren’t in a system that is doing him any favors. 

 

2023

Pass yds G/ 214.2

Rush yds G/ 87.8

Toyal yds G/ 302

 

2022

Pass yds G/ 204.2

Rush yds G/ 126.1

Toyal yds G/ 330.3

 

 

So far our O this year generates almost 30 less yards a game than last years O...

 

Somebody hold me, I'm catching the EB Mania over here. /s

 

[MartinC]

4 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

2023

Pass yds G/ 214.2

Rush yds G/ 87.8

Toyal yds G/ 302

 

2022

Pass yds G/ 204.2

Rush yds G/ 126.1

Toyal yds G/ 330.3

 

 

So far our O this year generates almost 30 less yards a game than last years O...

 

Somebody hold me, I'm catching the EB Mania over here. /s

 

2022 points per game 18.9. 1 game out of 17 over 30 points.

 

2023 points per game 22.2. 2 games out of 6 over 30 points.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

or even Chris Cooley to prove that to me.

 

I know you think Cooley is an ally of the point that the sacks are on Howell because of one comment early in one podcast but if you listened to the whole thing you'd hear him then equiviocate, then saying some of them were coverage sacks, and he thinks very little of the O line.  It's a bad unit according to him, not mediocre but bad.  He is actually been more brutal about the unit than most saying EVERYONE on that unit isn't good.  And he said the opposite of what Paulsen said about it which is they don't play well together -- chemistry isn't good.   Cooley actually likes Howell but isn't high on this O line. Your guy, Jay pretty similar.

 

As for PFF yeah they are definitely friends of the O line relatively speaking.  Them and Logan.  They are really hard to figure out.  One of their anaylists said on one of those shows that pressures are an indicator of the O line not the QB,  but sacks are often on the QB.  This unit has given up plenty of pressures on the PFF metrics, a ton of them especially Wylie and Gates and Charles.   Yet they don't kill them with their grades, they don't love them but don't hate them score wise.   

 

As for who gets the blame for what sack, I can't figure it out on their page.  I know from another post that Warren Sharp isn't a fan of how PFF grades the O line and specifically cited that his metrics had the unit as poor, the one year PFF graded them 2 seasons ago as good, the year that Rivera was always bragging about it.

 

But I did find some cool stats for Howell below.

 

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

If you look at Howell's numbers when clean, they are bordlerline awesome.  For those saying what's the difference if we gave him a great O line, he'd still take sacks.  That feels silly to me.

 

If you gave Howell a clean pocket like for example Philly often gives Hurts, his numbers would clearly be better.

 

And I agree with Keim who has harped multiple times that if Howell's issue is holding on to the ball a bit longer, give him a good O line, that's what you do, you build around your QBs strengths and weaknesses.  Every QB of course benefits from a good O line but Howell clearly especially so. 

 

Here's ironically PFF, talking about aisde from the sacks, Howell is quite good

 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[philibusters]

16 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

As for PFF yeah they are definitely friends of the O line relatively speaking.  Them and Logan.  They are really hard to figure out.  One of their anaylists said on one of those shows that pressures are an indicator of the O line not the QB,  but sacks are often on the QB.  This unit has given up plenty of pressures on the PFF metrics, a ton of them especially Wylie and Gates and Charles.   Yet they don't kill them with their grades, they don't love them but don't hate them score wise.   

 

 

 

In terms of PFF every player essentially gets  graded on a 1-9 scale every play technically -2 to 2 scale that works in .5 increments.  In terms of pressures, what score an O-Lineman who gives up a pressure gets on the play partially depends on how quickly they give up a pressure.  PFF uses 2.5 seconds as a cutoff.   Anything faster than that is considered a quick pressure and will get the O-Lineman a worse score.   If you give up a pressure after 2.5 seconds it will your grade, but your grade for the play may only be a -.5 or something like that.

 

So its a simple explanation how a O-Line can give up a larger than average amount pressures and have a middle of the pack PFF grade in pass pro...a lot of the pressures they are giving up are not quick pressures.

Edited October 20, 2023 by philibusters

[KDawg]

Just now, philibusters said:

 

In terms of PFF every player essentially gets  graded on a 1-9 scale every play technically -2 to 2 scale that works in .5 increments.  In terms of pressures, what score an O-Lineman who gives up a pressure gets on the play partially depends on how quickly they give up a pressure.  PFF uses 2.5 seconds as a cutoff.   Anything faster than that is considered a quick pressure and will get the O-Lineman a worse score.   If you give up a pressure after 2.5 seconds it will your grade, but your grade for the play may only be a -.5 or something like that.

So as long as the rush is delayed, the OL doesn't get dinged.

 

A blown assignment is a blown assignment. It's a negative grade. Period. There is no scale. You open your quarterback to taking hits, pressures and mess with their mental timing and cause early bailouts. 

[Skinsinparadise]

8 minutes ago, philibusters said:

 

In terms of PFF every player essentially gets  graded on a 1-9 scale every play technically -2 to 2 scale that works in .5 increments.  In terms of pressures, what score an O-Lineman who gives up a pressure gets on the play partially depends on how quickly they give up a pressure.  PFF uses 2.5 seconds as a cutoff.   Anything faster than that is considered a quick pressure and will get the O-Lineman a worse score.   If you give up a pressure after 2.5 seconds it will your grade, but your grade for the play may only be a -.5 or something like that.

 

So its a simple explanation how a O-Line can give up a larger than average amount pressures and have a middle of the pack PFF grade in pass pro...a lot of the pressures they are giving up are not quick pressures.

 

Forgot how Sharp criticized PFF's way of grading.  He did it ironically in the context about this team. He said PFF graded the unit well in 2021 but his metrics had the unit as a poor unit.  If I recall it was something along the lines of PFF not factoring context -- on pure passing downs.

 

Also forgot who said it maybe it was Sharp or maybe someone else which is the thing that stats don't measure is trash at the QB's feet, clutter in the pocket where the QB doesn't have an easy route to a clean pocket, they have that as a category but I gather they don't grade down O lineman for that.  Kirk used to call it trash at his feet.

 

We all here I assume watch a lot of football.  For example when I was watching the Ravens last weekend, I saw some really clean pockets for Lamar, which I don't see for Howell.  Forget pressure, but how many times have we seen him with an insanely clean pocket where he can scan the field.  I see that from time to time for some teams on a regular basis, heck sometimes for our opposing teams, almost never for Howell. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[philibusters]

4 minutes ago, KDawg said:

So as long as the rush is delayed, the OL doesn't get dinged.

 

A blown assignment is a blown assignment. It's a negative grade. Period. There is no scale. You open your quarterback to taking hits, pressures and mess with their mental timing and cause early bailouts. 

 

I definitely don't agree with that.  I think there is a difference between giving up an instant pressure on a first move and giving up a pressure on a second move, and giving up a pressure on a third move.   You give up a pressure on a first move and that QB may not even have time to get the ball to his first read.   You give up a pressure on a second move, the QB had time to make his first and often his second, and sometimes even third read.  You give up a pressure on a third move by the defender and the QB should have had time to get through all his reads and dump off to the check down.

 

At some point the QB is responsible.  So in terms of PFF grade, their system makes sense to me.   Is 2.5 seconds a good cutoff point.  That I don't know.  Obviously some arbitrary number will be used.  My instinct is 2.5 seconds is probably a decent gauge though occasional it will produce results that don't really describe how people played.

[Skinsinparadise]

10 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

 

I’d be surprised if he gets another legitimate opportunity in Washington with a completely new front office and coaching staff. Perhaps there’s a slim chance, but I’d estimate it at around 10%.
 

 

 

I know some here think they move on from Howell, a new regime.  Zorn moved away from Campbell.   Gibbs moved away from Ramsey.  Jay moved away from RG3 and Kirk.    Ron from Haskins.

 

And some say the Giants not dumping Daniel Jones with a new regime or the Eagles with Hurts was an exception to the rule, etc.

 

But going back to our team.  How many of the young QBs were dumped the first year the new regime came.  Nada, zero. Zip.  They gave them 1 more year or even more.

 

So why is Howell some dead duck exception to all of this.  He arguably has shown more than all of those QBs but he's the dude who will be thrown out right away.  Don't get me wrong anything is possible but those acting like he's the long shot, it made sense for Ramsey, Campbell etc to survive, but not Howell, I don't get it.  

 

It feels a bit like a passive aggressive attempt to win people over that we want Ron back.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

5 minutes ago, philibusters said:

 

I definitely don't agree with that.  I think there is a difference between giving up an instant pressure on a first move and giving up a pressure on a second move, and giving up a pressure on a third move.   You give up a pressure on a first move and that QB may not even have time to get the ball to his first read.   You give up a pressure on a second move, the QB had time to make his first and often his second, and sometimes even third read.  You give up a pressure on a third move by the defender and the QB should have had time to get through all his reads and dump off to the check down.

 

At some point the QB is responsible.  So in terms of PFF grade, their system makes sense to me.   Is 2.5 seconds a good cutoff point.  That I don't know.  Obviously some arbitrary number will be used.  My instinct is 2.5 seconds is probably a decent gauge though occasional it will produce results that don't really describe how people played.

 

You can disagree all you want, but if you whiff on a delayed pressure you whiffed.

 

To be clear, I am NOT referring to what you are.

 

A delayed pressure is something like a delayed blitz, where the guard for instance doubles the 2i and then the backer has a free run through on a delay. That delay occurs later in the time count, so the PFF grades don't ding the guard as badly.

 

Further, whiffing in general is a negative and deflates the play. Example: Right tackle gets hands on the DE, the DE gives a stutter move to the inside and the RT walls him off. The DE then clubs and rips outside into open space and the RT is off balance and the DE clears easily to a pressure. That is still a miss. I don't care that it took a second longer to set the move up. 

 

Where I agree that OL begins to lose blame is when they get into the umbrella or their slide and they have their man square up and the defender never breaks clearly free. That is where blame is absolved. Some.

 

The issue at hand and the elephant in the room is OL displacement into the back field. The further they are displaced, the muddier the pocket. 

 

On top of that, you say the QB has time to get to his first read above... okay, but what if that read is covered? Is blame still on the QB?

 

There are too many variables to sit and grade every play unless you are responsible for that team's success. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by KDawg

[philibusters]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

You can disagree all you want, but if you whiff on a delayed pressure you whiffed.

 

To be clear, I am NOT referring to what you are.

 

A delayed pressure is something like a delayed blitz, where the guard for instance doubles the 2i and then the backer has a free run through on a delay. That delay occurs later in the time count, so the PFF grades don't ding the guard as badly.

 

Further, whiffing in general is a negative and deflates the play. Example: Right tackle gets hands on the DE, the DE gives a stutter move to the inside and the RT walls him off. The DE then clubs and rips outside into open space and the RT is off balance and the DE clears easily to a pressure. That is still a miss. I don't care that it took a second longer to set the move up. 

 

Where I agree that OL begins to lose blame is when they get into the umbrella or their slide and they have their man square up and the defender never breaks clearly free. That is where blame is absolved. Some.

 

The issue at hand and the elephant in the room is OL displacement into the back field. The further they are displaced, the muddier the pocket. 

 

I don't know how PFF grades missed assignments on delayed blitzes.  I just listen to their NFL podcast with Steve and Sam and once in a blue moon it will come up how they grade pressures and when they describe how they grade pressures, they are not really talking about delayed pressures.

 

I watch every game back although I am not watching the all 22 (though I have access to the All 22 for all the games because I have a subscription to NFL plus so I could), I do see some clean pockets.  And sometimes Howell will mess up a clean pocket.  

 

I am a Howell fan.  But at this point he had pretty bad pocket presence.  I think Going Commando described it well when he used a computer metaphor that went something along the lines of Sam is putting all his CPU's into read coverage down the field and therefore has little CPU to read the pocket.  What little CPU is used to read the pocket is used for some simple things like moving up in the pocket or breaking the pocket, but even then it sometimes feels like he is just playing the percentages.  For example if you hold onto the ball climbing the pocket is usually a good idea, but not always.   And he will occasional climb the pocket into a sack where for example the Tackle has outside leverage not inside leverage on the DE and Howell makes the sack easier on the DE by climbing the pocket.  So it feels like there is more a timer in his head that says 3 seconds, climb pocket or break the pocket, rather than him actually kind of sensing what is going on around him.

 

And then there is another stat that we lead the NFL in dropbacks with 5 man protections.   And on those he probably just needs to try to throw guys open more.   It may be a three step drop and on those its 1-2-3 plant and if the 1st read isn't blanketed, try to throw to him even if he is not open by trying to throw him open, if he is blanketed, then hitch , and make your second read.  Sure you completion percentage won't be great on those play, maybe 50% if you are good because a lot of times you really cannot throw a guy open so it will just be an incompletion.  And that is where I disagree with posters saying on those 3 step drops its not on Sam because no receivers have separation.  And I think that is where you ahve to play with anticipation and throw to throw a guy open.  The defense may be in man coverage and we don't have any man beaters called  Obviously you don't want to throw to a guy who is blanketed, but there is not enough defenders tor really blanket your first and second read if its a well designed play with good spacing so even if nobody is open you can try to throw somebody open and everybody including the HC, OC, and QB just need to understand, you going to be lucky to complete 50% of those ball.   The QB just needs to understand leverage and how not to put the ball in harms way on those plays. There will be plays where the defense is playing a coverage that takes away whatever concept you are trying to run and you just have to throw to throw a guy open.  I don't think Sam is good at this yet.

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, philibusters said:

 

I don't know how PFF grades missed assignments on delayed blitzes.  I just listen to their NFL podcast with Steve and Sam and once in a blue moon it will come up how they grade pressures and when they describe how they grade pressures, they are not really talking about delayed pressures.

 

I watch every game back although I am not watching the all 22 (though I have access to the All 22 for all the games because I have a subscription to NFL plus so I could), I do see some clean pockets.  And sometimes Howell will mess up a clean pocket.  

 

I am a Howell fan.  But at this point he had pretty bad pocket presence.  I think Going Commando described it well when he used a computer metaphor that went something along the lines of Sam is putting all his CPU's into read coverage down the field and therefore has little CPU to read the pocket.  What little CPU is used to read the pocket is used for some simple things like moving up in the pocket or breaking the pocket, but even then it sometimes feels like he is just playing the percentages.  For example if you hold onto the ball climbing the pocket is usually a good idea, but not always.   And he will occasional climb the pocket into a sack where for example the Tackle has outside leverage not inside leverage on the DE and Howell makes the sack easier on the DE by climbing the pocket.  So it feels like there is more a timer in his head that says 3 seconds, climb pocket or break the pocket, rather than him actually kind of sensing what is going on around him.

 

And then there is another stat that we lead the NFL in dropbacks with 5 man protections.   And on those he probably just needs to try to throw guys open more.   It may be a three step drop and on those its 1-2-3 plant and if the 1st read isn't blanketed, try to throw to him even if he is not open by trying to throw him open, if he is blanketed, then hitch , and make your second read.  Sure you completion percentage won't be great on those play, maybe 50% if you are good because a lot of times you really cannot throw a guy open so it will just be an incompletion.  And that is where I disagree with posters saying on those 3 step drops its not on Sam because no receivers have separation.  And I think that is where you ahve to play with anticipation and throw to throw a guy open.  The defense may be in man coverage and we don't have any man beaters called  Obviously you don't want to throw to a guy who is blanketed, but there is not enough defenders tor really blanket your first and second read if its a well designed play with good spacing so even if nobody is open you can try to throw somebody open and everybody including the HC, OC, and QB just need to understand, you going to be lucky to complete 50% of those ball.   The QB just needs to understand leverage and how not to put the ball in harms way on those plays. There will be plays where the defense is playing a coverage that takes away whatever concept you are trying to run and you just have to throw to throw a guy open.  I don't think Sam is good at this yet.

 

To be clear, I've never said Howell doesn't share some blame. I actually was on him a little bit about his reads on one of the sacks where he looked to the field side 3-man surface where his initial read should have been boundary #2 on a sit route. His pre-snap read failed the play. I don't know if that is what he was coached to do or if it was his decision. 

 

I don't agree that he has bad pocket presence. It may be semantics, but I think he knows when the pocket is breaking down and knows he has to do something. His issue, when I watch, is he struggles to find the open gap to run to and often runs into his blockers, or he hesitates on run or throw away and winds up taking a sack. He needs to improve his escape strategy for sure. Won't see me arguing with that at all. I think we're on the same page here, except for how to categorize. I don't categorize that as bad presence. To me, presence is knowing you need to make a decision and beginning to act. His issue is decision making in those moments (but not decision making in general as he makes good reads down field). But that is an issue that is compounded by your next point.

 

I agree Sam isn't good at anticipation throws early in the play "clock". He is as plays develop down field, but not initial snap read. My read on that is his pre-snap reads are off and NFL defenses are throwing him for a loop at times with disguises. That is where he has to improve a lot. But he throws guys open down field routinely. The short stuff is where he needs to understand underneath coverages better.

 

Having said that, if you have a young QB, you need to support him with offensive line help.

 

Our OL is not good enough to support a QB like Howell. 

 

I think Howell will improve with time, but early on he's going to take hits because of his style and his weaknesses. 

 

I dislike our strategies and put a lot of the sack issues on coaching and personnel acquisition.

[NoCalMike]

I think most of the fanbase has felt this team has been a "QB away" from being a playoff team or better for most of the Rivera era and what I see this season is all of those expectations are falling on a first year starting QB Sam Howell.  His good play is being downplayed and his bad stuff is being put under a microscope because it seems like some fans are expecting him to look like he's been starting in this league for 2-3 seasons already, but the fact is when you have a young first year starter at QB you should not being going into games with their play being the determining factor of wins & losses. 

 

Zeke Elliot is already knocking on retirements door because Dallas ran him into the ground the first few seasons with Dak because the Cowboys were protecting the hell out of Dak until they felt he had enough experience and elevated his play to a certain level that they could lean on the pass game more. Don't forget half (if not more) of the Eagles fanbase were ready to dump Jalen Hurts even after his second season starting and it wasn't until the front office went out and built the O-line and surrounded him with playmakers that he took the big jump.  How about Purdy in SF, everything was rolling along fine when he was able to throw the ball 3 yards to McCaffrey and proceed to watch the guy go 70 yards for a TD, but a couple playmakers go down and suddenly Purdy looks lost out there.

 

Howell definitely has some areas of his game to work on, but so do those around him and I don't get from our games right now that Howell has been a large factor in the team's losses outside of the Buffalo game where pretty much the entire team rolled over. 

[philibusters]

8 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

I think most of the fanbase has felt this team has been a "QB away" from being a playoff team or better for most of the Rivera era and what I see this season is all of those expectations are falling on a first year starting QB Sam Howell.

 

I agree

 

8 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

His good play is being downplayed and his bad stuff is being put under a microscope because it seems like some fans are expecting him to look like he's been starting in this league for 2-3 seasons already, but the fact is when you have a young first year starter at QB you should not being going into games with their play being the determining factor of wins & losses. 

 

I hope my comments are not interpreted that way.  I don't want to downplay Howell's good play.  I am still pretty optimistic about Howell.  He is probably providing the best QB play we have had in the past 5 years.  That said I do feel like Howell is the biggest factor in the large amount of sacks we have been taking.  I would put the percentages at something like 50% on Howell, 30% on the O-Line, and 20% on miscellaneous things.

 

[Thinking Skins]

I think the question needs to be asked (and this needs to be said, sorry EB), Does Sam need a running game to be successful. 

 

We're seeing this right now. and we saw it with Carr in Houston. I was bringing it up in the post about running before contact that our line isn't good because BRob is basically creating his own holes. Its basically the same thing Kelley had to do, and Perine. Guice was a nice switch up but he kept getting hurt. I just want a line that we can get a yard on third and 1. 

[KDawg]

I think it’s absolutely true that the fanbase is focusing on the things he does poorly more so than the positives he’s brought us.

[Warhead36]

9 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I think it’s absolutely true that the fanbase is focusing on the things he does poorly more so than the positives he’s brought us.

Yeah its a little peculiar. Maybe because he was a 5th round pick, I don't know. But Howell has shown way more positive than negative.

[KDawg]

Just now, Warhead36 said:

Yeah its a little peculiar. Maybe because he was a 5th round pick, I don't know. But Howell has shown way more positive than negative.

Now someone is reading this and saying to themselves, “so we can’t point out the things he has to improve now? You guys are wild. He’s above criticism?”

 

So to head those folks off:

 

Of course you can criticize. But let’s keep it in ratio.

[Warhead36]

Other then the sacks I'd say Howell's biggest issue is inaccuracy on the deep stuff. His intermediate passes are on point but he's missed some open deep shots.

 

I'd also like to see him just take off and run more if there is open space in front of him and the D is playing man coverage. Pick up easy 7-10 yard chunks.