The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Conn]

46 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

I agree, unless the next coaching staff genuinely wants to commit to Howell and is OK being married to him.  If that's the case, then I am OK with that plan too, as long as they see it through.  None of this bringing in their projects from their old jobs and then benching the kid after four games ****.

Someday you’ll just have to accept that Haskins sucked, never had all the makings of a franchise guy, and was a poor pick influenced by a bad owner. And hey, I tried talking myself into him back then as well. But Rivera sucking at his own job and trading a 5th for Kyle Allen didn’t change Haskins sucking. If Snyder hadn’t forced that pick the prior year, maybe Rivera’s regime would have been forced to have an actual opinion on Herbert and Tua vs Young. But we’ll never know.

 

You’re so shell-shocked by life under Snyder that you think it’s impossible for a competent, new GM and coaching staff to come in and make their own decision on Howell without immediately being “married” to the decision for their entire tenure. 
 

You’re so concerned about the perception of the organization’s direction because those things mattered almost more than reality under Snyder, who would interfere. If we make the right hires of competent football people, the perception of the organizational direction in the moment will matter less than the evaluations they’re perfectly capable of making. Maybe that’ll be before year 1, this offseason. Maybe a better alternate at QB doesn’t present itself right away, and they start fixing this roster while Howell has a fair shot to prove himself. Maybe that works out, maybe it doesn’t. But asking a new GM at the beginning of his tenure to make the final decision on whether to marry himself to Sam Howell this February/March/April is absolutely dumber than whatever alternative outcome you’re afraid of. Guess what, if Jalen Hurts (the previous regime’s draft pick) hadn’t developed, the Eagles organization would have kept swinging. Same for many other organizations. It’s not as black and white as you’re making it, you’re just understandably traumatized by the experience we all suffered under one of the worst, most meddlesome professional sports owners of all time. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Conn

[DWinzit]

12 minutes ago, Conn said:

Someday you’ll just have to accept that Haskins sucked, never had all the makings of a franchise guy, and was a poor picked influenced by a bad owner. Rivera sucking at his own job and trading a 5th for Kyle Allen didn’t change Haskins sucking. If Snyder hadn’t forced that pick the prior year, maybe Rivera’s regime would have been forced to have an actual opinion on Herbert and Tua vs Young. But we’ll never know.

 

You’re so shell-shocked by life under Snyder that you think it’s impossible for a competent, new GM and coaching staff to come in and make their own decision on Howell without immediately being “married” to the decision for their entire tenure. 

YES!!!

Yes to all that you wrote! Great post.

Damn did I hate the Haskins pick. It was horrible draft for QB's in general and Haskins did suck. Heck, the only one I semi licked was Stidham and he went a round too early

 

Hope Howell lands in good hands next season

Edited October 21, 2023 by DWinzit

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Going Commando said:

 

I think we're going to get to eight wins or so.  Preseason, I didn't expect the coaching to be so bad TBF, including on offense.  But especially not from Rivera and Del Rio.  We're 3-3 but could easily be 1-5 if not for some lucky breaks against Atlanta and Denver.  We're going to spend the whole season battling just to stay .500.  If we stay relatively healthy, we can do it, but a few key injuries could kill us and leave us with five or six wins.

 

 

OK, it felt that way for me from the start for me.  This isn't a consistent team.  I didn't feel their off season did much as to both FA and the draft.  And I know some say even if you have a "meh" off season, even slight help should make a difference.  My take is nope.  Because some other teams for example, see the Lions have made major improvements to their roster last off season.  So if this team was about the same as the Lions last year.  And the Lions had a better off season then shouldn't the Lions be better?  Heck even the Giants as bad as their season has gone, have some young players improving from that draft and Okereke looks like a beast.  Whose the beast that we added this off season?

 

I know you were a bigger fan of their off season than I was but still even with that lense who were you excited about that would kill it for them THIS season?

 

Rivera lost me with how he approached this off season with so little urgency.  And the fact that he did it with new ownership in the fold made it feel even more odd where he's complacent as heck, delusional or as @Koolblue13 likes to say he's sort of checked out for whatever reason.

 

The season could still head north.  To me the next two games are critical.  Both are litmus test type games for Rivera.  Losing to the Giants is a dagger, basically would feel like the season is over.  If they beat the Giants and lose to the Eagles that would fit the roller coaster season i expect.  If they win both, maybe they can sniff the playoffs, will see.  The NFC isn't hot this year. you might be able to sneak in at 9-8.  If they lose both I think the season could spiral.

 

1 hour ago, Going Commando said:

 

I'm not talking about finishing top 2 for Williams/Maye. I'm talking about trading up for one of them.  Williams is probably going #1, but Maye's stock is softer and I think he'll be up for sale.  We get a new GM and HC in here and they make a big trade to get Maye and I'll be happy.  It's the strongest move we could make to secure our future IMO, because it'd form a rock solid QB-HC marriage and give ourselves the clearest organizational direction possible.

 

Maye is only for sale is if by chance a team sucks this season who doesn't need a QB.  I think that's 50-50 at best.  Heck even if its the Cardinals I'd think they'd try to dump Murray even if its a cheap firesale.  I think they could even with his salary if its cheap trade compensation.

 

So we'd have to hope that just by chance a team who doesn't need a QB sucks.  Then we likely are picking 12-15.  So the haul to trade up would be insane.  Why would a new coach want to roll the dice to start their career without three first round picks and change for their first three seasons versus try to use that capital to build around Howell.

 

I don't think this is a tear down roster.  Ron IMO screwed up by tearing down a good O line and making it crappy while touting he's about the trenches.  I think a smarter and more driven HC and GM can fix this.

 

 

[skinsfan66]

Would you rather have Derick Carr or another castoff, so glad we did not go that route again. Same old average QB for the Saints, here he would be getting busted up like the rest have done. The best move this team made this offseason was to stay the course with Sam. He needs help! TE and OL  All purpose back , To bad they blew the draft last year on the D. It would be another mistake if they did it next year. Please no more we need a CB, LB, DE this offseason even if we need them. Draft another second teer QB in the draft no more FA QB's. Sam has a good chance to succeed is what I am banking on.  The draft people deserve the D,F, grades's that were giving to them from a lot of outside media on who they drafted. Some posters on here could have blown their draft away. That has to be fixed. Offense first!

[philibusters]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

Maye is only for sale is if by chance a team sucks this season who doesn't need a QB.  I think that's 50-50 at best.  Heck even if its the Cardinals I'd think they'd try to dump Murray even if its a cheap firesale.  I think they could even with his salary if its cheap trade compensation.

 

So we'd have to hope that just by chance a team who doesn't need a QB sucks.  Then we likely are picking 12-15.  So the haul to trade up would be insane.  Why would a new coach want to roll the dice to start their career without three first round picks and change for their first three seasons versus try to use that capital to build around Howell.

 

I don't think this is a tear down roster.  Ron IMO screwed up by tearing down a good O line and making it crappy while touting he's about the trenches.  I think a smarter and more driven HC and GM can fix this.

 

 

 

I agree that if the Cardinals get a top 2 pick, they could probably trade Kyler Murray and probably get a first or second in return.   Basically the signing bonus for Kyler Murray has already been paid by the Cardinals and would be deadcap for them if they trade him.  After this season Murray will have something like 5 years 243 million on the contract  With that in mind the team trading for Muraray, but about 46 million of that is prorated signing bonus that the Cardinals would take as deadcap in a trade leaving 5 years 197 million.  Not cheap, but not super expensive and each year as QB salaries go up those numbers will seem better and better.

 

Don't know if they would roll with Murray and trade that #2 for a 3 first rounders or whether they would draft it and maybe trade Murray for say a 2nd and 3rd, but I do think Murray is moveable.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

27 minutes ago, Conn said:

Someday you’ll just have to accept that Haskins sucked, never had all the makings of a franchise guy, and was a poor pick influenced by a bad owner.

🤣

 

I picked up what he was putting down immediately as well.

 

I do think it makes sense to marry the regime and QB early on.  I definitely don’t want to Harris pushing Howell on a GM/coach that has eyes for someone else.  
 

You’ll never convince me that part of the exchange for all the power was Ron agreeing to give Haskins a chance.  In fairness to Ron, while there were red flags with Haskins - it wasn’t fully clear that he was going to be a bust.  But at the same time, being gifted the 2nd pick in the draft - you have options.  Options the next guy here won’t have.

[Skinsinparadise]

25 minutes ago, philibusters said:

 

I agree that if the Cardinals get a top 2 pick, they could probably trade Kyler Murray and probably get a first or second in return.   Basically the signing bonus for Kyler Murray has already been paid by the Cardinals and would be deadcap for them if they trade him.  After this season Murray will have something like 5 years 243 million on the contract  With that in mind the team trading for Muraray, but about 46 million of that is prorated signing bonus that the Cardinals would take as deadcap in a trade leaving 5 years 197 million.  Not cheap, but not super expensive and each year as QB salaries go up those numbers will seem better and better.

 

Don't know if they would roll with Murray and trade that #2 for a 3 first rounders or whether they would draft it and maybe trade Murray for say a 2nd and 3rd, but I do think Murray is moveable.

 

Agree. 

 

QBs in the draft who are billed as potentially elite don't get traded.  Only shot at this unless there is something I am missing is if the Bears end up with both the #1 and #2.   And in that case they likely can make a deal with a team that is picking top 7 give or take so why would they want to trade with a team likely picking 12-15ish?   

 

Maybe if they lost to the Giants this FO will be open to trading Sweat or young and they get a high pick that can be used later?  But otherwise even if the Bears end up with both picks, if feels like a long shot.

 

So I am not putting much thought into the trading up for Maye bucket because it seems like such a long shot.   And that's not even factoring Howell's trajectory.  If Howell keeps flashing, you got me why this team would want to trade the moon for Maye -- but again even if they wanted to it feels like a wild long shot.

 

Granted this team could collapse but as much as I was down on this team's off season, I don't expect them to suck, I am still sticking to another so so season.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Stihl89]

1 hour ago, Going Commando said:

 

I agree, unless the next coaching staff genuinely wants to commit to Howell and is OK being married to him.  If that's the case, then I am OK with that plan too, as long as they see it through.  None of this bringing in their projects from their old jobs and then benching the kid after four games ****.

They need to hard commit one way or the other this offseason. Imo his value won’t be higher in 2025 offseason if they want to trade him. Just say that if his rest of this season is the same as the last 7 he might fetch like a 3rd rounder or something. Some team spends 2 years trying to improve him or what ever. 
 

If he stays however and plays roughly the same his value plummets due to needing to trade for him AND sign him possibly. 
 

I just have a hard time seeing him here long term if he’s anything other than great the rest of the year. I just can’t envision a GM and HC wanting to commit 

52 minutes ago, Conn said:

You’re so shell-shocked by life under Snyder that you think it’s impossible for a competent, new GM and coaching staff to come in and make their own decision on Howell without immediately being “married” to the decision for their entire tenure. 

I want them married just so we can avoid the year 3 QB reset we do with every staff. You stick with Howell or you make moves to acquire one this offseason in the draft or make moves to ensure draft capital and status to ensure you’re drafting top 3-5 in 2025

[Conn]

13 minutes ago, Stihl89 said:

I want them married just so we can avoid the year 3 QB reset we do with every staff. You stick with Howell or you make moves to acquire one this offseason in the draft or make moves to ensure draft capital and status to ensure you’re drafting top 3-5 in 2025

If you remember, the Eagles gave Hurts another year to develop whole stockpiling capital in case they needed to replace him. They were set in either case. The popular national narrative at the time was that if Hurts didn’t show out, they could trade up for their guy with the capital. It can be done by a forward-thinking FO who are all on the same page (and most importantly, coveted around the league for their competence unlike almost anyone we’ve had making decisions in decades). For the Eagles, Hurts continued growing into his best-case scenario so they were able to stack the rest of their roster instead. But they were prepared to replace him in necessary.

 

That FO is a top contender to supply our next GM imo and it’s a FO I admire and would like to emulate. So it’s a powerful example for me, personally, that they also had a promising but questionable young QB when a new coaching staff came in—and they planned for every outcome. Now, they had the same GM so it’s a bit different—so I understand if it’s a less compelling example for you. But in practice the decisions that need to be made about the rosters (and especially at QB) are similar. It can be done while building the rest of the roster and making smart cap moves for the future, without committing to either an “all-in on the existing prospect” or “tear it down to the foundation” approach. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Conn

[Stihl89]

50 minutes ago, Conn said:

If you remember, the Eagles gave Hurts another year to develop whole stockpiling capital in case they needed to replace him. They were set in either case. The popular national narrative at the time was that if Hurts didn’t show out, they could trade up for their guy with the capital. It can be done by a forward-thinking FO who are all on the same page (and most importantly, coveted around the league for their competence unlike almost anyone we’ve had making decisions in decades). For the Eagles, Hurts continued growing into his best-case scenario so they were able to stack the rest of their roster instead. But they were prepared to replace him in necessary.

 

That FO is a top contender to supply our next GM imo and it’s a FO I admire and would like to emulate. So it’s a powerful example for me, personally, that they also had a promising but questionable young QB when a new coaching staff came in—and they planned for every outcome. Now, they had the same GM so it’s a bit different—so I understand if it’s a less compelling example for you. But in practice the decisions that need to be made about the rosters (and especially at QB) are similar. It can be done while building the rest of the roster and making smart cap moves for the future, without committing to either an “all-in on the existing prospect” or “tear it down to the foundation” approach. 

The biggest difference is Howie was still in charge. It would be nice for both but I’d rather do own thing whole ass instead of trying to do one. 
 

I do want to try and get from the howie tree as well. I also do think the entire roster needs gutted. Coaching has sucked but the players and the way the roster is constructed isnt built for continued sustained success in todays nfl 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Stihl89

[kingdaddy]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 I think a smarter and more driven HC and GM can fix this.

 

I agree, there is talent here, we need someone who can come in and put it to better use. 

[Thinking Skins]

11 minutes ago, Stihl89 said:

The biggest difference is Howie was still in charge. It would be nice for both but I’d rather do own thing whole ass instead of trying to do one. 
 

I do want to try and get from the howie tree as well. I also do think the entire roster needs gutted. Coaching has sucked but the players and the way the roster is constructed is built for continued sustained success in todays nfl 

Question is who do we get next? 

 

I'm thinking someone from our current tree. Maybe but Martin but maybe the other Marty who was high on Howell. Remember back when Ron set up a consortium of GMs? Aren't they still here? I'd think they're pretty talented. And in the owners ear right now. Are they analytics guys? Don't know. Is that a deal breaker? It's age a deal breaker? Who would Marty recommend? 

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

3 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Question is who do we get next? 

Somebody elite!! Haven’t you been following along!! 😆

 

I think Ron’s and the entire FO’s fate is sealed. I think Sam still has time to prove himself worthy of a shot with a new GM/HC (he has already done so with me). 

[KDawg]

Some of the opinions on this regime changed so fast The Flash is jealous.

[Thinking Skins]

2 minutes ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

Somebody elite!! Haven’t you been following along!! 😆

 

I think Ron’s and the entire FO’s fate is sealed. I think Sam still has time to prove himself worthy of a shot with a new GM/HC (he has already done so with me). 

There is no such person. 

 

People thought it was the understudy to Bellichick but he bombed out in KC with Cassel

 

People thought it was the understudy to Ozzie but Baltimore is looking just as limp

 

Now people want the understudy to Howie, but are your willing to give up a franchise QB over it? I'm not. 

[Conn]

7 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Question is who do we get next? 

 

I'm thinking someone from our current tree. Maybe but Martin but maybe the other Marty who was high on Howell. Remember back when Ron set up a consortium of GMs? Aren't they still here? I'd think they're pretty talented. And in the owners ear right now. Are they analytics guys? Don't know. Is that a deal breaker? It's age a deal breaker? Who would Marty recommend? 

Why would you think Rivera’s FO guys are pretty talented? The roster has huge holes (understatement) and they don’t take advantage of many roster-building tools that great FO’s do. The first people we replace (besides Rivera) need to be the GM and VP of Player Personnel types. And then they can evaluate absolutely everything on the football side of the organization. 
 

Hurney and Mayhew are not remotely analytics guys, and I doubt they’re in Harris’s ear about anything specific at this point. They work for Rivera, and Harris probably gets reports and has meetings with all our top level guys as he learns the operation and how it’s currently operating. But they aren’t decision-makers, at best they collaborate with Rivera who technically has final say. 

[Stihl89]

13 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Question is who do we get next? 

 

I'm thinking someone from our current tree. Maybe but Martin but maybe the other Marty who was high on Howell. Remember back when Ron set up a consortium of GMs? Aren't they still here? I'd think they're pretty talented. And in the owners ear right now. Are they analytics guys? Don't know. Is that a deal breaker? It's age a deal breaker? Who would Marty recommend? 

Ew to anyone from our current tree. Gross. I couldn’t be more turned off than continuing this putrid front office. They are among the worst front offices in the league. 
 

This isn’t just a fan thing either. League wise we’re looked down upon. So many various front office rankings has us bottom 3

Edited October 21, 2023 by Stihl89

[KDawg]

Hurney and Mayhew know what they are looking at and understand the games and can ID talent. There is a problem in marrying it to scheme and strategically developing a roster, though.

 

I’d have no issue with Hurney especially acting as a scout in some capacity. But not much higher of a role. 

[Thinking Skins]

1 minute ago, Conn said:

Why would you think Rivera’s FO guys are pretty talented? The roster has huge holes (understatement) and they don’t take advantage of many roster-building tools that great FO’s do. The first people we replace (besides Rivera) need to be the GM and VP of Player Personnel types. And then they can evaluate absolutely everything on the football side of the organization. 
 

Hurney and Mayhew are not remotely analytics guys, and I doubt they’re in Harris’s ear about anything specific at this point. They work for Rivera, and Harris probably gets reports and has meetings with all our top level guys as he learns the operation and how it’s currently operating. But they aren’t decision-makers, at best they collaborate with Rivera who technically has final say. 

 

You can speak negatively of our current roster but many local media sports people have said it's the best roster they've had in a long time. Where are the holes?

QB - not a hole

WR - not a hole

RB - maybe a hole for this system

OL? I'll give you that but they addressed it, differently and they have a whole philosophy of not playing draft picks. (I'd say youth is an issue here)

 

DL - not a hole

LB - hole

CB - not a hole. Though youth is an issue 

S - not a hole though youth is an issue

 

P - not a hole

K - maybe a hole

LS - maybe a hole

 

I think this is a pretty well put together roster. We need some time to compete with the SFs and Phillys and buffalos and KCs but I think with coaching we can get there. 

[Conn]

5 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Hurney and Mayhew know what they are looking at and understand the games and can ID talent. There is a problem in marrying it to scheme and strategically developing a roster, though.

 

I’d have no issue with Hurney especially acting as a scout in some capacity. But not much higher of a role. 

I think this is fair, they aren’t heading up a scouting department that’s creating horrific bottom of the barrel rosters. They’re fine as guys whose takes are part of the soup, probably. But you need someone with vision to make decisions, you need someone who understands modern roster building ideas to steer the ship. Someone who gets draft pick value, maneuvering in the draft, negotiating the league’s trade market. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Conn

[Skinsinparadise]

20 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Hurney and Mayhew know what they are looking at and understand the games and can ID talent. There is a problem in marrying it to scheme and strategically developing a roster, though.

 

I’d have no issue with Hurney especially acting as a scout in some capacity. But not much higher of a role. 

 

I think Tim Gribble is likely good at his job as for working Ron's shopping list.

 

They had a good FA haul in year 1 under Kyle Smith but its been bad IMO even since Smith left -- don't know if that's a coincidence but its doesn't speak too highly of the Martys.

 

But yeah agree overall this regime whether its Ron or the Martys or more likely all of the above lack a good macro view of how to build a roster.  Also IMO they lack urgency, imagination and aren't forward thinking.   

 

If Ron's gone i think almost zero shot this FO survives -- this last off season is doing them no favors.  Josh also tends to like high end, high reputation GMs -- i doubt reading the league's take whether its the national media or personnel guys from teams rating their peers -- rating these guys typically somewhere from 25th to 30th in the league will help their cause considering I gather Josh will ask around before he makes a move.  I doubt anyone tells Josh he should keep the Martys.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Conn]

17 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

You can speak negatively of our current roster but many local media sports people have said it's the best roster they've had in a long time. Where are the holes?

QB - not a hole

WR - not a hole

RB - maybe a hole for this system

OL? I'll give you that but they addressed it, differently and they have a whole philosophy of not playing draft picks. (I'd say youth is an issue here)

 

DL - not a hole

LB - hole

CB - not a hole. Though youth is an issue 

S - not a hole though youth is an issue

 

P - not a hole

K - maybe a hole

LS - maybe a hole

 

I think this is a pretty well put together roster. We need some time to compete with the SFs and Phillys and buffalos and KCs but I think with coaching we can get there. 

The roster is not bottom of the barrel, but these current guys do not draft great players. All of our best players are from the previous regime and it’s year four. Multiple disappointing 1st rounders so far, multiple completely wasted 2nd rounders, entire units left to decay. Not to mention a large percentage of this roster is about to hit FA, so who knows what the next GM will do.

 

It’s not a bad roster. There’s bones to build on, I don’t think it’s a complete tear-down job for a new GM (though I’d be fine with one if that’s what they wanted). But it’s not a good roster, it needs significant work, and it’s lacking impact playmakers all over.  Coaching is a huge problem, agreed. But I don’t think it’s as talented as you do and I don’t agree with all of the areas of the roster you consider “not a hole”. Especially given some of the FA decisions that have to be made this offseason. 
 

You have to stop thinking of this as some binary—either we stick with Howell and these current jokers or we start over and have to throw away Howell. It doesn’t have to be that way. We should be wanting the absolute best FO personnel and apparatus to be built regardless, and if those guys are qualified they’ll make the best choices involving Howell as well. If he’s the real deal, he certainly doesn’t need this current FO’s anchor weighing around his neck. He needs the best situation possible. If you’re a Howell or bust guy then you should be pissed and thinking that this kid deserves better. Deserves the best. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Conn

[Thinking Skins]

13 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

If Ron's gone i think almost zero shot this FO survives -- this last off season is doing them no favors.  Josh also tends to like high end, high reputation GMs -- i doubt reading the league's take whether its the national media or personnel guys from teams rating their peers -- rating these guys typically somewhere from 25th to 30th in the league will help their cause considering I gather Josh will ask around before he makes a move.  I doubt anyone tells Josh he should keep the Martys.

Define a high reputation GM though? Wouldn't that be Marty? Or is he too close to Ron? Honestly it doesn't matter to me? I wanted a GM to find a QB. Now I just want my GM to not lose my QB. 

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Define a high reputation GM though? Wouldn't that be Marty? Or is he too close to Ron? Honestly it doesn't matter to me? I wanted a GM to find a QB. Now I just want my GM to not lose my QB. 

 

Your GM, if you were an owner of a team, would be strictly for finding a QB and keeping him and not for.... everything else?

[Conn]

3 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Define a high reputation GM though? Wouldn't that be Marty? Or is he too close to Ron? Honestly it doesn't matter to me? I wanted a GM to find a QB. Now I just want my GM to not lose my QB. 

In what world does he have a good reputation, where are you getting that from. It should absolutely matter to you, there’s a ton for a high value GM to do. This further cements my thought from yesterday that you must be deep in a homer corner of twitter. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Conn