The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Warhead36]

7 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

For year over year contention? 

 

You still do. 

Yep agreed. Look at the teams that are at the very top. The teams that win year in year out. Chiefs with Mahomes. Bills with Allen. Bengals with Burrow. Eagles will probably join that list now with Hurts. Ditto Chargers with Herbert. Packers for years with Rodgers. Saints for years with Brees. Pats for years with Brady(and now Bucs too although down year for them this year). List goes on and on.

 

If you want to sustain success year in year out for 5+ years, you need that franchise QB. Everything else is easy to find and you can get by at other positions. Like I have no idea if the Bills OL is any good or not. Chiefs secondary is kinda meh. etc. etc. But when you have DAT DUDE at QB, you'll win games.

 

Until we solve that problem, we'll be stuck in this perpetual state of purgatory. Maybe Howell can be that guy. Maybe not. I'd like to find out and NOT commit any resources to chasing a veteran retread again. We've tried that route way too many times over the last 20+ years. It is not a proven method to sustained success.

[RansomthePasserby]

I think we could roll with Howell, but if we do we HAVE TO upgrade our OL to keep him protected. He needs to have time to learn how to analyze the field, and that can’t happen when he’s trying to dodge defensive linemen as soon as the ball is snapped. 

[skinsmania123]

My question is, what is the payout to Turner to release him from his contract? With Snyder moving on, and a change coming, would anything even happen until March?  Enjoyed watching Sam Howell. I hope they roll with him next year and bring in an inexpensive vet as the backup.  His ball placement yesterday on some of those long passes was excellent. Can you imagine if he has time to develop chemistry with Terry and Johan?  

[goskins10]

7 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Nuance.

 

Run, Run, Pass every set of downs is the issue. Toss plays on 3rd and 1. Lack of play action. 

 

It's not as simple as you're making it seem.

 

It is when you have a rookie QB trying to get up to the NFL speed. Those nuances are what take time to understand. Keep it simple. It was working. They had the lead the entire game - yes it was more due to STs and D but that's what complimentary football is. They had a couple of really nice drag it out drives. One unfortunatly ended in a pick in the EZ. Kicker left 7 pts out there too. 

 

I believe Scott T gets way too much abuse. I will not miss him if replaced but the complianing is over the top IMO. He has not had a lot to work with in terms of QBs and the Oline this year was not great. Yet they churned out 8 wins this year, most of them with a QB who struggles to throw deep enough to worry Ds and another who under and over throws check downs! The run game this year really developed and it's due to committing to it. 

 

They also have to think of the rest of the team - not just Howell. The more you run the less chances of injuries. And if you can move the chaisn with run, run, pass then why not? Was it perfect? No. But they won and won handily. Best way to let dallas back into the game is to sit back there and sling it. 

 

I had no problem with how they called this game outside a few plays here or there. 

[Zim489]

6 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Yep agreed. Look at the teams that are at the very top. The teams that win year in year out. Chiefs with Mahomes. Bills with Allen. Bengals with Burrow. Eagles will probably join that list now with Hurts. Ditto Chargers with Herbert. Packers for years with Rodgers. Saints for years with Brees. Pats for years with Brady(and now Bucs too although down year for them this year). List goes on and on.

 

If you want to sustain success year in year out for 5+ years, you need that franchise QB. Everything else is easy to find and you can get by at other positions. Like I have no idea if the Bills OL is any good or not. Chiefs secondary is kinda meh. etc. etc. But when you have DAT DUDE at QB, you'll win games.

 

Until we solve that problem, we'll be stuck in this perpetual state of purgatory. Maybe Howell can be that guy. Maybe not. I'd like to find out and NOT commit any resources to chasing a veteran retread again. We've tried that route way too many times over the last 20+ years. It is not a proven method to sustained success.

Yeah you can still have that 1-2 year windows with JAGs at QB but it requires significantly higher than average FO production to replace the inevitable roster shrink that occurs.

[NoVaSkins21]

Howell may have the potential to be the answer, but the issue is the coaching staff.  Turner is an AWFUL OC and I don't trust Rivera after the QB carousel that he put on this year

[Warhead36]

1 minute ago, NoVaSkins21 said:

Howell may have the potential to be the answer, but the issue is the coaching staff.  Turner is an AWFUL OC and I don't trust Rivera after the QB carousel that he put on this year

I'm kinda 50/50 when it comes to RIvera and QBs. On one hand, I think he's done a good job establishing a culture in the locker room that is important to the development of any young player but particularly QB. In other words I think we have a good environment for a QB to succeed.

 

On the flip side, I think he lacks the tactical acumen himself to allow the QB to really grow from an Xs and Os and game understanding standpoint, and he's also not good at picking coaches who can help him with that(i.e. his choice of OC).

[Zim489]

1 minute ago, goskins10 said:

It is when you have a rookie QB trying to get up to the NFL speed. Those nuances are what take time to understand. Keep it simple. It was working.

From an analytical stand point this is untrue. Nothing helps a QB more than first down throws because of the inability for the defense to know exactly what you are going to do. Its why the top offense are often among the highest first down pass rates.

 

[skins4ever28]

I cannot believe some people don’t want to roll with Howell. This was his first game, where he was completely hamstrung by the oc, and against a very good defense. And he showed such promise that I woke up full of hope. If you run on first and second down almost every single series, you are setting up your qb for failure. But he didn’t fail. He took chances, he had leadership and moxie. And most of all he didn’t let the moment be too big for him. He shook off the int and kept ballin. I’m sorry, maybe I got rose tinted glasses on, but this kid is the truth and I am 100% behind keeping him. Qbs in the draft this year suck anyway. Keep Howell, and if he ends up sucking then tank it for Williams the year after. But I have a feeling Howell is the truth

[NoVaSkins21]

Just now, Warhead36 said:

I'm kinda 50/50 when it comes to RIvera and QBs. On one hand, I think he's done a good job establishing a culture in the locker room that is important to the development of any young player but particularly QB. In other words I think we have a good environment for a QB to succeed.

 

On the flip side, I think he lacks the tactical acumen himself to allow the QB to really grow from an Xs and Os and game understanding standpoint, and he's also not good at picking coaches who can help him with that(i.e. his choice of OC).

Defensive minded head coaches need a strong OC to help develop a young QB and this is where his loyalty to Turner is a problem because he probably doesn't see Turner as a problem. 

[goskins10]

1 minute ago, Zim489 said:

From an analytical stand point this is untrue. Nothing helps a QB more than first down throws because of the inability for the defense to know exactly what you are going to do. Its why the top offense are often among the highest first down pass rates.

 

 

 

LOL - That is a list of teams with the best QBs in the league. Thanks for making my point for me. I mean seriously, Brady, Mahomes, Herbert, Tua, Kirk, Burrow. Yea you have an outlier or two but in generasl if you have a great passing game, 1st down throws, especailly off play action are good. And no one said 100% run, run, pass.  I was saying for the first few games stay heavier on that sdide - nothing wrong with it esepcailly if you are winning.

 

[goskins10]

35 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Okay let's not confuse me with what some had said to what I didn't even say. I am not part of the everyone bucket!

I never said to run the damn ball. I wanted to see Howell's throwing and accuracy ability instead. You run the ball if you are trying to win a game. This game we didn't have to do that or to see how our run game is/was stupid to begin with. Not saying you don't run the ball you do but run, run pass constantly was stupid. Moreover, with a potential starting QB for next year you need to see the passing game from him instead. 

 

 

I am talking about in the weeks before Howell was put in when TH was struggling. I am pretty sure you did not want Wentz and also pretty sure said that putting in Howell would be good and that they should run the ball like they did with TH. Both things I agree with BTW. 

 

If you did not, then my apologies. But I was pretty certain you did. 

 

Either way, again I do not believe it's as simple as people are making it. Dallas had something to play for. They left thier starters in for a very long time. Not sure you want to be that agressive with a rookie. I liked what they did. mostly ran but took some shots. Remember he is one Jahan really bad drop from over 200 yds passing and a 63% comp - both at least getting close to decent. Add the running TD and the 1st downs he got and i will very happy with him and thought the game plan made sense. Maybe had they been losing then get more agressive. 

 

In the end, you are not gonig to find out much in one game. Just enougth to see if he deserves a chance to compete. He did that. Mission accomnpliched. No sense in risking anything beyond that.I will say tghat had thery put him earlier in the season when many of us were asking for it, then by now the game plan shoukld have been more wide open if needed. But first and only game in the NFL? And with a good lead the entire game? Keep it simple. 

[Skinsinparadise]

56 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

For year over year contention? 

 

You still do. 

 

It makes it much easier no doubt.

 

49ers have been good for years without one.  Steelers, arguably as well. 

 

My main debates with you on the points are.

 

A.  The difficulty to find one. 

 

B.  I don't think this is the same old, same old roster.  IMO, we are wasting the weapons and defense to not chase decent QB play 

 

C.  The option of this team tanking for Caleb or whomever doesn't seem based in reality, this roster isn't bad where they are capable of getting the first pick in the draft, I get that you push to just make it that bad.  But a head coach isn't going to just sell assets like crazy and in turn jeoparize their job for another future head coach to benefit from it.  Ditto typically a FO guy.   For that to happen, its an owner directive not a coaching directive.  Owners rarely do it, the Dolphins owner did but most are allergic to the process.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Simmsy]

Did you guys see Wentz standing around in the back during the post game presser? Who let him in? Why would you even want to be there? He isn't toxic to the locker room because he's a bad player, he's toxic because he sucks ginger balls!

[Captain Wiggles]

2 minutes ago, Simmsy said:

Did you guys see Wentz standing around in the back during the post game presser? 

 

[Zim489]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Steelers, arguably as well. 

Steelers havent been a threat since like 2017. They had that fraud 2020 but besides that they have been very middling. 

 

49ers have long been the exemption but thats mostly due to the fact that they have a very QB proof offense that is very difficult for a QB to bring down. They only seem to elevate the offense. Kyle is an offensive genius. 

 

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

A.  The difficulty to find one. 

No one says it isnt. 

 

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

B.  I don't think this is the same old, same old roster.  IMO, we are wasting the weapons and defense to not chase decent QB play 

Could argue most teams are in this situation. Its about facing the reality of how close are you actually.

 

10 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

C.  The option of this team tanking for Caleb or whomever doesn't seem based in reality, this roster isn't bad where they are capable of getting the first pick in the draft, I get that you push to just make it that bad.  But a head coach isn't going to just sell assets like crazy and in turn jeoparize their job for another future head coach to benefit from it.  Ditto typically a FO guy.   For that to happen, its an owner directive not a coaching directive.  Owners rarely do it, the Dolphins owner did but most are allergic to the process.

I think they are closer to it if they wanted to be. They on paper next year are facing a significantly more difficult schedule. If Sam was a flash in the pan yesterday and they dont upgrade a ton with the owner limbo they could battle for a top 5 pick. Remember this team was multiple breaks from starting 1-5.

[Koolblue13]

51 minutes ago, NoVaSkins21 said:

Howell may have the potential to be the answer, but the issue is the coaching staff.  Turner is an AWFUL OC and I don't trust Rivera after the QB carousel that he put on this year

Nobody is arguing in favor of Turner or not. We're just doing it in the coaching threads. In the QB threads, we're talking about QBs.

42 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

And no one said 100% run, run, pass.  I was saying for the first few games stay heavier on that sdide - nothing wrong with it esepcailly if you are winning.

 

Again, the amount of running wasn't the issue. The predictability of it was. When a defense knows that it's 3rd and long and you are going to throw it, because 1rst and 2nd are always runs, how does that help anyone? It's not THAT he called a lot of runs. It was HOW he called them. Nuance. 

6 minutes ago, Simmsy said:

Did you guys see Wentz standing around in the back during the post game presser? Who let him in? Why would you even want to be there? He isn't toxic to the locker room because he's a bad player, he's toxic because he sucks ginger balls!

You're a monster.

[Skinsinparadise]

4 hours ago, Zim489 said:

 

Could argue most teams are in this situation. Its about facing the reality of how close are you actually.

 

 

If you can argue that then that means this roster is mediocre, average, if so, it fits some of your others posts.  I disagree.   I think its set up for a major climb.  It's not easy to have an average season with argubaly the worst QB play in the league.  But forgetting that, I can't recall us having a defense like this since Gibbs 2.  The weapons IMO are almost on par with 2016.

 

4 hours ago, Zim489 said:

 

 

I think they are closer to it if they wanted to be. They on paper next year are facing a significantly more difficult schedule. If Sam was a flash in the pan yesterday and they dont upgrade a ton with the owner limbo they could battle for a top 5 pick. Remember this team was multiple breaks from starting 1-5.

 

If they are winning 8 games with the worst QB play in the league, another season of upgrades, and better QB play, i don't think equals a team on the brink of being the worst team in the NFL.  

 

The schedule didn't end up as easy as we expected

 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

top 10 according to PFF on offense yesterday

 

 

[CobraCommander]

12 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

If you can argue that then that means this roster is mediocre, average, if so, it fits some of your others posts.  I disagree.   I think its set up for a major climb.  It's not easy to have an average season with argubaly the worst QB play in the league.  But forgetting that, I can't recall us having a defense like this since Gibbs 2.  The weapons IMO are almost on par with 2016.

 

 

If they are winning 8 games with the worst QB play in the league, another reason of upgrades, and better QB play, i don't think equals a team on the brink of being the worst team in the NFL.  

 

The schedule didn't end up as easy as we expected

 

 

 

I THINK we only beat three teams that ended above .500, I could be wrong. That means 5 of our wins came against teams that finished worse than us, including complete duds likes Chicago and Houston. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 hour ago, goskins10 said:

 

I believe Scott T gets way too much abuse. I will not miss him if replaced but the complianing is over the top IMO. He has not had a lot to work with in terms of QBs and the Oline this year was not great.

I know we both historically have been in the side that Scott gets unfairly raked over the coals, not that he’s great but he’s not all bad.

 

I’ve been converting more and more to the Scott is bad side as the weeks go by though.  I do agree that obviously he’s not had much to work with at QB and the OL is a major burden.  He also  has some really awesome modern play designs.  But that’s about where the positive ends for me.  He’s put up some real stinkers over the last month or so from a situational playcalling standpoint.  Add to that the the rumblings out of the locker room that sort of mirror what I’ve been seeing “outsmarting himself” and “calling the play because we practiced it this week” instead of calling a better play.  He’s not the worst but I’d prefer to move on to someone with better in game feel.

[Zim489]

50 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

If you can argue that then that means this roster is mediocre, average, if so, it fits some of your others posts.  I disagree.   I think its set up for a major climb.  It's not easy to have an average season with argubaly the worst QB play in the league.  But forgetting that, I can't recall us having a defense like this since Gibbs 2.  The weapons IMO are almost on par with 2016.

 

 

If they are winning 8 games with the worst QB play in the league, another reason of upgrades, and better QB play, i don't think equals a team on the brink of being the worst team in the NFL.  

 

The schedule didn't end up as easy as we expected

 

 

 

They played the 3rd easiest out of Division. They won’t have that same cake walk next year 

[Zim489]

37 minutes ago, CobraCommander said:

I THINK we only beat three teams that ended above .500, I could be wrong. That means 5 of our wins came against teams that finished worse than us, including complete duds likes Chicago and Houston. 

One of which was the 9-8 jags. I find it hard overly optimistic about this roster right now. Also you’ll have a flushing regardless when the new staff is put in place

[HigSkin]

https://www.si.com/nfl/commanders/news/washington-commanders-exclusive-sam-howell-the-next-drew-brees-says-north-carolina-tar-heels-coach-phil-longo

 

Washington Commanders quarterback Sam Howell received a ton of praise from his college coach at North Carolina.

 

 

The Washington Commanders are going with Sam Howell at quarterback in the team's final regular season game against the Dallas Cowboys Sunday.

 

The Commanders weren't expecting to see the former North Carolina Tar Heel on the board when they went on the clock to start the fifth round of the 2022 NFL Draft. 

 

Yet, there he was, and the team knew they couldn't let him pass by any longer.

 

And you can count Tar Heels offensive coordinator and quarterback coach Phil Longo among the population of those who didn't expect the slide Howell experienced on Thursday and Friday nights.

 

I asked Longo how he felt about Howell's chances for success if he were to be thrust into the starting lineup in his rookie season.

 

"I think one of the things that makes Sam so good is his understanding of what he needs to do ... and also his understanding of what he has around him," Longo told me. "I liken him more to Drew Brees than anybody I've ever studied in the NFL, so if that plays out at all I think the Commanders and Sam are going to be a good fit for each other."

 

Longo also explained why he was puzzled by Howell's slide to the fifth round in the draft.

 

"It's hard for me to project why," Longo said shortly after the 2022 draft. "I know that Sam was evaluated very highly. I know that it seemed to be a surprise to the scouts and NFL coaches that I know that he was still around in the fifth.

 

"All Sam needs is an opportunity, and that's what Washington is providing him with," Longo continued. "And I know he's elated to be with the Commanders ... he just wants an opportunity to go and compete."

 

Now, he has the opportunity to compete Sunday against the Cowboys. Kickoff is scheduled for 4:25 p.m. inside FedEx Field.

[Warhead36]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

It makes it much easier no doubt.

 

49ers have been good for years without one.  Steelers, arguably as well. 

 

My main debates with you on the points are.

 

A.  The difficulty to find one. 

 

B.  I don't think this is the same old, same old roster.  IMO, we are wasting the weapons and defense to not chase decent QB play 

 

C.  The option of this team tanking for Caleb or whomever doesn't seem based in reality, this roster isn't bad where they are capable of getting the first pick in the draft, I get that you push to just make it that bad.  But a head coach isn't going to just sell assets like crazy and in turn jeoparize their job for another future head coach to benefit from it.  Ditto typically a FO guy.   For that to happen, its an owner directive not a coaching directive.  Owners rarely do it, the Dolphins owner did but most are allergic to the process.

I'll give you the 9ers but the Steelers? They literally had a future HOF QB for like 15 years.