The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[wit33]

20 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

There has been a ton of shell defenses preventing deep balls. These younger QBs and honestly new school OCs havent adjusted yet. Not a lot of attacking of intermediate routes in front of safeties 

How do you come to this kind of conclusion? Truly curious. 

[ThomasRoane]

20 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

That said, when we are talking Wentz vs Heinicke, how about this, if the running game continues to work as well as it did against the Packers for the duration of Heinicke's time in the game then when Wentz comes back, it would be a mistake on Scott Turner's part to throw out that style of offense just because Wentz has a different skillset.   When I watched Heinicke against the Packers, I tried to really focus not only on the success/failures but if there was anything I could pin-point that Heinicke was doing that I felt Wentz couldn't.  The answer continually was no.  Now, you can make the argument that Heinicke is more likely to settle for the checkdowns where as Wentz wants the homeruns, I can grant that, but I also think those checkdowns are a bigger part of the actual plan when Heinicke is in the game where as for Wentz those might be the 3rd or 4th read.  You could still clearly see that a lot of Heinicke's passes towards the sidelines were slow to get there and broken up/damn hear picked off.   Those weren't deep shots, they were simple out routes to move the chains.  

 

Maybe we can all agree that Heinicke's time under center for the next month has forced Turner to embrace the running game more and perhaps a lightbulb went off in his head, as the playcaller, that they should be running the ball more, regardless of who the QB is, until defenses show they can stop it.  That helped Heinicke a lot and would definitely help a statue like Wentz. 

 

I'll grant you a couple of points.  Turner has been more committed to the run game in the last two games.  TH can't throw the long ball (50 yds +) or the deep out.  Wentz really struggles in what should be easy pitch and catch throws.  

 

The run game is better with TH (and could be just as good with Howell) for a couple of reasons.  First, Taylor is really good at his ball handling.  He does an excellent job selling fakes.  If you can make a defender hesitate for a half a second, then you can really make them pay in the NFL with the likes of Samuel or Gibson.  Then there's the threat of TH running.  NOBODY is scared of Carson Wentz taking off!  In fact, I believe DC's were practically daring him to do so.  He was never twitchy and now (post-injuries) can't outrun a DT.  So, defenses were more likely to just send everybody with no regard for rush discipline.  You have to make sure TH does not keep the ball now.  Where it didn't matter with Wentz.  Then there's the boot game.  Taylor can play under center and still get the edge on a boot-pass.  That really stresses a defense.  It also keeps the backside pursuit honest.  So instead of our RB's having to worry about players crashing down from behind, the cutback is in play and they can be more patient in setting up their runs.

 

The article that SIP posted about the trend away from traditional pocket passers towards mobile QB's that are still accurate has been on my mind lately.  How many successful, traditional pocket passers are there now?  Tom Brady (at age 44) is about the only one who still has success living exclusively in the pocket.  Mahomes moves.  Herbert is a good athlete.  Borrow can move.  Of course, the chances of getting one of those is very low.  But let's look at the Eagles.  They have one SB with an RPO QB - Foles.  Could be in position to win another one with Hurts.  I think Philly has a good recipe.  Build a strong team around a decent QB who can move and voila!  

 

It's very interesting to see how trends take place in the NFL.  So many teams want their own Aaron Donald to collapse the pocket.  (Fletcher Cox came on the scene before him really) There are quite a few out there.  Washington is really good when both Allen and Payne can get in a QB's face.  The elusive QB (not good enough to be just mobile) is a good counter to the athletic tackles in the game now.  

 

 

[NoCalMike]

1 minute ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

I'll grant you a couple of points.  Turner has been more committed to the run game in the last two games.  TH can't throw the long ball (50 yds +) or the deep out.  Wentz really struggles in what should be easy pitch and catch throws.  

 

The run game is better with TH (and could be just as good with Howell) for a couple of reasons.  First, Taylor is really good at his ball handling.  He does an excellent job selling fakes.  If you can make a defender hesitate for a half a second, then you can really make them pay in the NFL with the likes of Samuel or Gibson.  Then there's the threat of TH running.  NOBODY is scared of Carson Wentz taking off!  In fact, I believe DC's were practically daring him to do so.  He was never twitchy and now (post-injuries) can't outrun a DT.  So, defenses were more likely to just send everybody with no regard for rush discipline.  You have to make sure TH does not keep the ball now.  Where it didn't matter with Wentz.  Then there's the boot game.  Taylor can play under center and still get the edge on a boot-pass.  That really stresses a defense.  It also keeps the backside pursuit honest.  So instead of our RB's having to worry about players crashing down from behind, the cutback is in play and they can be more patient in setting up their runs.

 

The article that SIP posted about the trend away from traditional pocket passers towards mobile QB's that are still accurate has been on my mind lately.  How many successful, traditional pocket passers are there now?  Tom Brady (at age 44) is about the only one who still has success living exclusively in the pocket.  Mahomes moves.  Herbert is a good athlete.  Borrow can move.  Of course, the chances of getting one of those is very low.  But let's look at the Eagles.  They have one SB with an RPO QB - Foles.  Could be in position to win another one with Hurts.  I think Philly has a good recipe.  Build a strong team around a decent QB who can move and voila!  

 

It's very interesting to see how trends take place in the NFL.  So many teams want their own Aaron Donald to collapse the pocket.  (Fletcher Cox came on the scene before him really) There are quite a few out there.  Washington is really good when both Allen and Payne can get in a QB's face.  The elusive QB (not good enough to be just mobile) is a good counter to the athletic tackles in the game now.  

 

 

 

I can agree with some points there, and I want to make it clear, I am not ultimately arguing Heinicke vs Wentz so much as I am tempering any expectations that Heinicke is going to morph into something we haven't already seen from him.  Wentz could disappear from the roster today and it still doesn't suddenly make Heinicke a viable option at QB (beyond being the back up).  In other words Heinicke's abilities don't hinge on how well or poor Wentz plays.  We know Heinicke's skills and ceiling. 

 

I do agree that mobile QB's are the future of the NFL as a default not the exception, which is what has changed over the last decade.  However, most every mobile QB being drafted aren't lacking in the other areas that Heinicke does. They all still also have big NFL arms because one of the important things about a mobile QB that differentiates most of them from Heinicke, is that when they take off to scramble, or just escape the pocket, they aren't conceding half the field because of not being able to make those throws when on the run.  Heinicke can still complete some passes on the run, but he is very limited in that way, and what the translates to is him likely to get hit more once he becomes mobile and he isn't exactly built to absorb those hits.

[Renegade7]

1 hour ago, Zim489 said:

There has been a ton of shell defenses preventing deep balls. These younger QBs and honestly new school OCs havent adjusted yet. Not a lot of attacking of intermediate routes in front of safeties 

 

tWo DeEp ShElL?!?

[ThomasRoane]

5 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

 

I can agree with some points there, and I want to make it clear, I am not ultimately arguing Heinicke vs Wentz so much as I am tempering any expectations that Heinicke is going to morph into something we haven't already seen from him.  Wentz could disappear from the roster today and it still doesn't suddenly make Heinicke a viable option at QB (beyond being the back up).  In other words Heinicke's abilities don't hinge on how well or poor Wentz plays.  We know Heinicke's skills and ceiling. 

 

 

No argument here.  After the first Dallas game last year TH had to be discounted as franchise, Super Bowl winning QB.  What I wanted (and I'm not alone) was to see RR stand pat this year.  There were no really good QB's in last year's draft or free agency.  None that wanted to come to Washington.  (Now we can say thank you for turning them down!)  If RR had stuck with the plan of creating a great team then get your QB I think the team would be in better shape.  Could've dumped some of that $25 million into a better, younger O-line.  We weren't sure preseason but I think now we can say that it would really be nice to keep Payne.  Could have got his deal done.  Then lock up the interior of the defense for a few years.  Maybe even get a deal done for Gibby now that he's found his niche.  As it stands, it looks like Washington will be worse off next year.  Subtract Payne.  They've hit on 3rd rounders now and we don't have one next draft.  

 

I don't think you need a Joe Burrow or Herbert in the draft.  Rams won with Stafford.  He looks really bad this year now that teams are collapsing the pocket and his salary isn't helping with the talent level.  Build a great team around a player like Levis, Young, or maybe even Howell.  I think the team would be better off in the long run.  Keep TH as a backup.  You could do a lot worse than him.  He'd probably stay around on a team friendly deal.  Hell, I'll bet he ends up as a better OC than Turner someday.  Not big shoes to fill I know lol.  But I can see TH as a really good coach some day.  But he'd have to be lucky as hell to play QB in a Super Bowl.  Or surrounded by amazing talent.

 

Edited October 29, 2022 by ThomasRoane

[Skinsinparadise]

 

mobility 

[Professor_Nutter_Butter]

57 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

mobility 

PJ Walker was a baller in the XFL. Not surprised.

[NoVaSkins21]

This team needs to go with Heinicke for the rest of the season and if he flops or gets injured, go with Howell for rest of the season like the Colts are doing with Sam Ehlinger.  Putting Wentz back as the starter makes no sense because he's not the QB he was with the Colts last year and definitely not the one he was with Philly.  

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

“He’s like a normal dude,” Commanders right tackle Sam Cosmi said.

And that’s a big part of Heinicke’s appeal to his teammates as well as the fan base.

 

There’s a long list of what he isn’t: a strapping, big-armed quarterback with an impressive résumé. That’s why Washington (3-4) aggressively pursued a new starter in the offseason, trading for Carson Wentz, who has those attributes. It’s why Heinicke said this summer he understood why Washington made the trade and that he accepted his role as a backup.

With Wentz on injured reserve nursing a fractured right ring finger, Heinicke will make at least three more starts, including Sunday at the Indianapolis Colts (4:25 p.m. ET, Fox). Beyond that?

“This is about playing one game at a time,” Washington coach Ron Rivera said, “when we get to that position, then I'll deal with it.”

Heinicki’s story remains well told, that of the young man sleeping on a couch at his sister’s house when Washington called in December 2020. The undrafted free agent out of Old Dominion University in 2015.

But there’s also a list of what Heinicke adds: a guy whose jersey will always be muddy or grass-stained when playing outside; someone who ignores bad plays to rally late and who can inspire teammates.

“It is an underdog mentality,” Rivera said. “It's the way he plays. He plays all out. And the legend grows when you dive at pylons and do what he did. I mean, you get guys to rally and people love that. But the underdog mentality I think is what people really gravitate towards.”

 

 

In three of his last four starts in 2021, Heinicke posted a total QBR of less than 10. Sunday, it was 39.9, which ranked 22nd for the week.

Yet, Washington has won six of the past nine games started by Heinicke. During that stretch, the Commanders have beaten the Tampa Bay Buccaneers (and quarterback Tom Brady), Seattle Seahawks (Russell Wilson), Las Vegas Raiders (Derek Carr) and, of course, the Packers (Aaron Rodgers).

“It’s not pretty,” Washington left tackle Charles Leno Jr. said of Heinicke’s style, “but it is gritty.”

In some ways there’s mystery to Heinicke’s game. One game, he’s diving for the pylon to complete a touchdown run in a playoff loss against Tampa Bay. Another game (Sunday), he’s diving near the pylon at a defender who intercepted a pass and returned it for a touchdown. He has thrown 16 interceptions in his past 17 starts.

Nobody is proclaiming Heinicke as the savior. The reason the Commanders pursued another quarterback so aggressively last offseason hasn’t changed: Heinicke is viewed as a high-end backup and low-end starter. There’s also still a belief that Wentz can play much better once he’s more acclimated in the offense.

“Taylor has a lot of energy in the way he approaches playing this game of football and you can just tell he plays free spirited,” McLaurin said. “I think it’s a lot of what he’s been through in his career as a player and as a person. He plays like it’s his last game every single time.”

McLaurin said that energy permeates throughout the team. Heinicke appreciates that sentiment.

[JSSkinz]

I cant believe anyone would entertain restructuring Wentz, IMO its as crazy as thinking Heine can be our franchise QB.  Wentz is severely damaged goods and its 75% mental so I don't know how you fix that and I don't care to be part of his mental rehab.

 

Playing Sam for 5 games wont give us enough data to know if he can lead the team in the future so I think you go all in this offseason to get one of these top ranked QBs in the 1st rd. What other choice is there?  Wentz is not an option based on his play, Sam is too green, and Heine is Heine.

 

 

[ThePackisback]

You guys playing that Taylor dude tomorrow? I picked Washington to win in my pick Em league tomorrow. They are playing against a backup QB that has yet to learn the system. I think they will win.

[Professor_Nutter_Butter]

16 hours ago, ThePackisback said:

You guys playing that Taylor dude tomorrow? I picked Washington to win in my pick Em league tomorrow. They are playing against a backup QB that has yet to learn the system. I think they will win.

That Taylor dude is, in fact, starting. Assuming something disastrous doesn't happen. Also possibly a rough mistake for you picking Washington. 

Edited October 30, 2022 by Professor_Nutter_Butter

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Only going off my gut (which has been surprisingly accurate this year), I don't see Heinicke playing well today, unfortunately. Maybe another slow start without the 2nd half rebound.

[NoCalMike]

On 10/28/2022 at 7:27 PM, ThomasRoane said:

 

No argument here.  After the first Dallas game last year TH had to be discounted as franchise, Super Bowl winning QB.  What I wanted (and I'm not alone) was to see RR stand pat this year.  There were no really good QB's in last year's draft or free agency.  None that wanted to come to Washington.  (Now we can say thank you for turning them down!)  If RR had stuck with the plan of creating a great team then get your QB I think the team would be in better shape.  Could've dumped some of that $25 million into a better, younger O-line.  We weren't sure preseason but I think now we can say that it would really be nice to keep Payne.  Could have got his deal done.  Then lock up the interior of the defense for a few years.  Maybe even get a deal done for Gibby now that he's found his niche.  As it stands, it looks like Washington will be worse off next year.  Subtract Payne.  They've hit on 3rd rounders now and we don't have one next draft.  

 

I don't think you need a Joe Burrow or Herbert in the draft.  Rams won with Stafford.  He looks really bad this year now that teams are collapsing the pocket and his salary isn't helping with the talent level.  Build a great team around a player like Levis, Young, or maybe even Howell.  I think the team would be better off in the long run.  Keep TH as a backup.  You could do a lot worse than him.  He'd probably stay around on a team friendly deal.  Hell, I'll bet he ends up as a better OC than Turner someday.  Not big shoes to fill I know lol.  But I can see TH as a really good coach some day.  But he'd have to be lucky as hell to play QB in a Super Bowl.  Or surrounded by amazing talent.

 

 

My issue is with the idea of standing pat for a season. Heinicke isn't a 1st round or any kind of top draft pick, nor is he young in NFL years, so this isn't a situation where you concede down seasons in the name of development like you would do with Howell. We can debate the acquisition of Wentz itself, whether they gave up too much, whether his skillset was the best fit, whether he has ever shown elite ability post-injury(s). That is fair game and I am happy to have that discussion, because I would likely side on the "wasn't worth it" side more than not.  However, once the coaches pretty much flat out said Heinicke's ceiling was a serviceable back up, then I don't see how you sell the locker room on not even attempting to bring in other options. Let us not forget the previous season Fitzpatrick was brought in and so many of the fanbase were convinced Heinicke would win the starting job in training camp, but he didn't.  So whatever Heinicke's short-comings are they obviously were enough that he was set to be a back up to a career 50/50 journeyman caliber QB like Fitzpatrick.  It doesn't mean Fitzpatrick did everything better than Heinicke but it was likely the coaches weighed each QB's strengths and weaknesses and it was determined that despite what Heinicke can do well, it isn't enough.   So that said, going into 2022, I don't see how you carry both messages, one that Heinicke is a back up, but also two, that you are just going to go into the season with a back up caliber QB.  Maybe that was the fault of Ron Rivera for being too publicly transparent about the QB situation to where he was cornering himself (as the GM) into having to just go grab any available vet QB with any kind of name recognition, and if that's the case then that is Ron's bad, however it doesn't change the fact that the coaches seemed to feel at the time that the roster was good enough to win more games, but they needed an upgrade at the QB position itself for those wins to happen.

Edited October 30, 2022 by NoCalMike

[Califan007 The Constipated]

4 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

Only going off my gut (which has been surprisingly accurate this year), I don't see Heinicke playing well today, unfortunately. Maybe another slow start without the 2nd half rebound.

 

 

😐

[Califan007 The Constipated]

37 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

 

😐

 

 

My gut let me down lol....

[HigSkin]

 

[Kelvin Bryant]

The guy has won 7 of his last 10 starts. Just sayin...

[SoCalSkins]

On 10/18/2022 at 1:21 PM, method man said:

 

No

 

 

A 3 year extension at 30 mil in addition to his existing contract at the time would put an average of under 8 mil a year for years and we could get out at any point. Carson is 28 mil this year alone. Heinicke has a winning record as a starter for us.  
 

One day I will be wrong but with opinions like yours that day is not gonna be any time soon. Thanks for playing! 

Edited October 30, 2022 by SoCalSkins

[tomwvr]

5 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

Only going off my gut (which has been surprisingly accurate this year), I don't see Heinicke playing well today, unfortunately. Maybe another slow start without the 2nd half rebound.

Close to corect

[burgngold fan]

Only thing I can about todays game!   The  Legend continues!!!  Lol

[Zim489]

So whos our QB next year? As we seem to play our way out of a draft pick? Unless Dan is gone no one is signing or being ok to trade here. What rando on a last chance? 

 

Dont say Taylor. What we watched today was one of the most inept QB displays I have seen in a long time. 

Edited October 31, 2022 by Zim489

[tomwvr]

4 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

So whos our QB next year? As we seem to play our way out of a draft pick? Unless Dan is gone no one is signing or being ok to trade here. What rando on a last chance? 

 

Dont say Taylor. What we watched today was one of the most inept QB displays I have seen in a long time. 

Who knows and my guess is taylor will be the back up

[Koolblue13]

6 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

So whos our QB next year? As we seem to play our way out of a draft pick? Unless Dan is gone no one is signing or being ok to trade here. What rando on a last chance? 

 

Dont say Taylor. What we watched today was one of the most inept QB displays I have seen in a long time. 

Taylor