All things defense

[MrJL]

9 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

This question is likely premature but, since we dealt both of our ends and have three high picks invested in the interior of our defensive line (Allen, Payne, Mathis) does it make sense to switch to a 3-4 defense next year and sign/draft some linebackers over going with a 4-3 or 4-2-5 defense? Does anyone play a 3-4 defense anymore and are they good? I assuming JDR is gone after this season and wonder if going to a 3-4 defense would be the way to go for our personnel?

 

No.  FIrst of all, I'm pretty sure of Allen, Payne, Mathis and John Ridgeway only Allen converts to a 3-4 end.  Secondly, linebacker is by far our weakest position.  We'd probably need five new linebackers in one off season, with three of them being starter quality, since Jamin Davis is our only starter worthy LB.  And only our rookie DE's MIGHT be able to switch from 4-3 DE to 3-4 OLB/Edge rushers.  I am fairly certain Toohill, JSW and Obada are not the types to make that move.  And while we would need to re-sign the three of them, I'm not sure they'd command the kind of salaries starting level LBs do

[RandyHolt]

NO to the 3-4.  I HATED how Shanahan switched to it had to reinvent the lineup and it sucked. Jettisoned fine players, made our stud ends lose weight so they could get abused in pass coverage... disaster. We could never find a NT and then when we did they were out of shape easily exposed in hurryup. F the 34. Keep it simple - the core of our D is our 2 two stud interior 4-3 DTs.  It seems many players don't want to play nose. Guess what, after first down that nose is coming out of the game. And likely for the rest of the game. On top of all that? Had a 4-3 coach in Haslett running it.

 

All the talk about Apke... I figured it was only a matter of time before someone name dropped the great white shadow Reed Dougherty Doughty.

 

@kfrankie FYI all the trade talk is in free agency. I asked mods to at least mod the name - ditch Cam Sims and add TRADES, and suggested to create a trade thread and move all the trade talk there. I was going to make a thread as a courtesy to folks showing up not knowing the news as breaking news didnt have it but talk would have been in 2 places. We dont even have a catch all offense talk thread so no surprise there will never be a trade thread. It seems protocol is to bump draft day welcome threads for players you want to discuss.  These trades seemed new thread worthy to me but spilt milk.

Edited November 4, 2023 by RandyHolt

[Silvernon]

I mean it's not out of the realm of possibility to do an attacking style 3-4 zone defense Steelers LeBeau style. 

 

Payne plays left

Mathis and Ridgeway middle

Allen plays right

 

I just think the days of the 34's like that are mostly done. Too many athletes on the field that you will be playing 5-6 DBs most of the time.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[petey hodge]

We have the personnel to do 3-4 today!!

 

let’s get Forbes and Quan to step into LB positions.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

[DWinzit]

Curl was right, it was a BS call, it was a sack!

 

If they are going to resign anyone, he is the man! 

[Stihl89]

 

I wouldn’t care if they both got traded. We’re over paying the position as a whole for middle of the road play

[Warhead36]

DT impact play to play is not significant enough to warrant paying them big bucks, unless its a Donald or Jones type. I'm curious what the offers for Allen were. I don't think we can deal Payne because of the massive cap acceleration.

[method man]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

DT impact play to play is not significant enough to warrant paying them big bucks, unless its a Donald or Jones type. I'm curious what the offers for Allen were. I don't think we can deal Payne because of the massive cap acceleration.

 

I think it was Doc and Sheehan who suspect Allen's leadership is overstated and that they don't truly have a leader on the defensive side of the ball. I would be up for moving him 

[Stihl89]

2 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

DT impact play to play is not significant enough to warrant paying them big bucks, unless its a Donald or Jones type. I'm curious what the offers for Allen were. I don't think we can deal Payne because of the massive cap acceleration.

We do have 90 mil next year and might have an issue reaching the floor. Couple it with the weak FA class I wouldnt mind eating a bunch of cap space 

[Est.1974]

Well we do have a lot of potential in our DB group. However it feels almost impossible to tell at the minute if that potential has any chance of materialising into consistent quality football. Hopefully the second half of the season brings progression with both Forbes and Quan in particular. 

[Veretax]

so I thought for a while that they were doing a 5-2 set up not a 4-2.   five lineman means unless they keep in 2 tight ends and maybe the back, that you have mulitple guys with single blockers. a 5-2 could easily become a 3-4 if an end or tackle drop, or a 4-3 just to mess with people.  I'm not sure we ahve the smarts at end for that, and I think allen payne are btter being disruptive in the middle of the dline than dropping into coverage.  so I would not switch to 3-4.

 

[RandyHolt]

Are Allen and Payne allowed to 1 gap most downs, or just sometimes?  Looks to me like they are engaging at their man on many downs, playing the scheme but its one of those elusive things no one every seems to know the answer to. Paging Eugene to tell JDR Payne and Allen will rip QBs heads off if allowed to go get the QB using any tech in their arsenal.

 

We only "overpaid at DT" because JDR is not utilizing them enough to be game changers. His blitzes are rare, yet predictable, almost always is just one, delayed. Its so obvious just by comparing to watching our OL under seige in the same game. We never see a guy come free but Sam sure does. That's all you need to see to know our all DT studly stats are earned by sheer individual feats.  Its a team game and JDR has the guys on an island in contain role more often than in an unleash the beast mode. I dont see stunts tried nearly often enough. The DTs and their stats are neutered under JDR. Same **** different decades for our stud DTs.

 

Everyone see Sweat attacking and wreaking havoc last night? He looked very aggressive and effective on the plays I watched him. A DC needs to get out of the way and let their best players do their thing sometimes. Allen is clearly frustrated here and I dont blame him.

Edited November 10, 2023 by RandyHolt

[Going Commando]

On 11/9/2023 at 7:14 AM, DWinzit said:

Curl was right, it was a BS call, it was a sack!

 

If they are going to resign anyone, he is the man! 

 

Gotta resign him now.  Who else can we even spend the money on?  His position isn't a high dollar cap commitment either.  I don't know what his market price will be, but it feels like we can get him back for less than 14 million per season.

 

IMO paying your studs at the cheap positions (safety, IOL, TE, IDL, RB, LB) is exploiting market inefficiencies.  Those guys are cheap because their positions are considered more replaceable or have shorter shelf lives than others, not because they have significantly less impact than other positions on the field.  A stud box safety or LBer can absolutely dominate a game/define your defense for you.  Obviously I'd much rather pay Fred Warner 14 million a year or Christian McCaffrey or George Kittle 11 million a year than Bradley Chubb or Christian Kirk 18 million a year.  Your money goes further spending it on second/third contracts for top players at cheap positions.

[Warhead36]

1 minute ago, Going Commando said:

 

Gotta resign him now.  Who else can we even spend the money on?  His position isn't a high dollar cap commitment either.  I don't know what his market price will be, but it feels like we can get him back for less than 14 million per season.

 

IMO paying your studs at the cheap positions (safety, IOL, TE, IDL, RB, LB) is exploiting market inefficiencies.  Those guys are cheap because their positions are considered more replaceable or have shorter shelf lives than others, not because they have significantly less impact than other positions on the field.  A stud box safety or LBer can absolutely dominate a game/define your defense for you.  Obviously I'd much rather pay Fred Warner 14 million a year or Christian McCaffrey or George Kittle 11 million a year than Bradley Chubb or Christian Kirk 18 million a year.  Your money goes further spending it on second/third contracts for top players at cheap positions.

He'll probably get the tag now that Sweat and Young are gone.

[skinny21]

34 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

Gotta resign him now.  Who else can we even spend the money on?  His position isn't a high dollar cap commitment either.  I don't know what his market price will be, but it feels like we can get him back for less than 14 million per season.

 

IMO paying your studs at the cheap positions (safety, IOL, TE, IDL, RB, LB) is exploiting market inefficiencies.  Those guys are cheap because their positions are considered more replaceable or have shorter shelf lives than others, not because they have significantly less impact than other positions on the field.  A stud box safety or LBer can absolutely dominate a game/define your defense for you.  Obviously I'd much rather pay Fred Warner 14 million a year or Christian McCaffrey or George Kittle 11 million a year than Bradley Chubb or Christian Kirk 18 million a year.  Your money goes further spending it on second/third contracts for top players at cheap positions.

I might generally disagree about RB (though McCaffrey is an exception, IMO) and I’m not sure that IDL belong in that group of relatively cheaper positions, but… I do agree with your general point.  I’ve especially been thinking for a while now that linebacker is one spot for sure I’d pay good money toward this offseason.  Sure, we can stand to add to the secondary and DL, but a stud LB in particular would go a long way toward elevating this group.  Go ahead and draft a guy too.  And yeah, I’m hoping we do all we can to resign Curl.  Also agree that we need to beef up our IOL and add to the TE room.  Sidenote to that, I wouldn’t be cutting Logan - IMO it’d be somewhat like the Moses situation.  

[Going Commando]

13 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

and I’m not sure that IDL belong in that group of relatively cheaper positions,

 

Yeah sacks can really blow up the pay scale for IDLs.  Seems like there are 10 double digit sack IDLs running around the league now, and two of them are here.  But in general, they are still way cheaper than edges.  Jon Allen's 17 million a year is way better than Joey Bosa's 25 million IMO.  And we're staring down a near future where 30+ million a year for an edge will be the new standard for the top five players at the position because of Nick Bosa's deal.  TJ Watt, Myles Garrett, Khalil Mack, and Maxxx Crosby are all right on that threshold, and Danielle Hunter is probably going to get a deal in that neighborhood now too.  Rashan Gary and Bradley Chubb have a ~26 million cap hit per year on their next deals.  A Daron Payne or DeForest Buckner or Dexter Lawrence at 22 per year feels cheap in comparison, and they probably give you more individual impact than the edge rusher of equivalent class.

[Warhead36]

There is no universe where Allen is as impactful as Bosa. That's crazy talk. Allen is very good but Bosa is an absolute stone cold stud.

[Est.1974]

Positional discussion can  sometime be misleading. IDL, Edge, OLB/Edge.

 

Great players get paid. What is an animal like Parsons worth ? Does it matter what his position is defined as……

[Voice_of_Reason]

6 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

He'll probably get the tag now that Sweat and Young are gone.

No way.  He's not a top 5 safety in the league. He's good.  But he's not that good.  You don't pay a "good" player "great player" money.

 

By definition, the tag pays the player the average of the top 5 contracts.

 

I would like them to re-sign Curl.

 

However, I really don't care.  I think they need somewhere around 8-10 new starters on defense.  If they could trade Allen after the season for a first or a high second, I'd do that.  Payne is basically un-tradable because of his contract.  Davis has another year.  None of the rookie/second year guys in the secondary seem to be any good.  

 

They just need to blow the whole thing up to its studs and start over.  It's a damn shame.  The amount they invested on the defense, it's terrible and needs a complete rebuild.

[Voice_of_Reason]

On 11/4/2023 at 2:09 PM, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

I clicked on the link to see where Washington ranked because it was cut off.  It's 18th.

 

However, that's not my biggest takeaway.

 

My biggest takeaway is mustachio still hasn't figured out how to use and post a video in full screen using his phone.  He still looks like a skinny 1970's porn star with that stache, but he doesn't have the basic internet streaming skills of an Onlyfans model.  He needs to go make a friend (maybe his first?) in the adult online streaming industry to give him some pointers.  

 

Tough look for my guy.  

[AlwaysBeRedskins2Me]

I'd love for us to get our first defensive touchdown of the season Sunday. That would be huge. I am curious to how many teams don't have one yet this season. Seems like even bad defenses have accomplished at least one of these this year. Indy just had two pick sixes in the same game, performed by the same player! Let's get one fellas.

[skinny21]

3 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

No way.  He's not a top 5 safety in the league. He's good.  But he's not that good.  You don't pay a "good" player "great player" money.

 

By definition, the tag pays the player the average of the top 5 contracts.

 

I would like them to re-sign Curl.

 

However, I really don't care.  I think they need somewhere around 8-10 new starters on defense.  If they could trade Allen after the season for a first or a high second, I'd do that.  Payne is basically un-tradable because of his contract.  Davis has another year.  None of the rookie/second year guys in the secondary seem to be any good.  

 

They just need to blow the whole thing up to its studs and start over.  It's a damn shame.  The amount they invested on the defense, it's terrible and needs a complete rebuild.

I think they (now) need a DE on top of the 1-2 linebackers they’ve needed.  Of course, going into next season we’ve got several Dlinemen hitting FA, along with Curl and Fuller (and needing linebackers).  I’m of the opinion that the coaching is the biggest problem right now though.  Not that I think Del Rio is a bad DC, but I think he’s struggling fitting the pieces together and is caught in a trap of thinking that since most of the guys have been with him for a good while, he can play around a bunch.

[Skinsinparadise]

“Defensive line, you can only affect the game so much,” defensive tackle Jonathan Allen said. He pointed out that, in 2021 against Green Bay, he had two sacks, three quarterback hits and two tackles for loss — and Washington lost by two touchdowns. “If Tom Brady has a good game, you’re probably going to win.”

 

Going forward, the team could just go cheap at edge and leave its pass rush to the highly paid tackles. But both have generated pressure at disappointing rates this season; Allen is near a career low (9.9 percent) and Daron Payne is at one (5.8 percent). Both are big parts of the Commanders’ future, though, so the front office would have to bolster the pass rush by adding an edge rusher.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2023/11/11/commanders-pass-rush/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=wp_redskins