All things defense

[madden lot]

On 4/17/2023 at 9:32 PM, Warhead36 said:

Cocaine's a heck of a drug

True. And weed might be recreational but it sure as will have you imagining things you should not say out load

[Anselmheifer]

On 4/30/2023 at 9:14 AM, KDawg said:

I don’t think we’re all set at Edge. I think Obada will play more on the interior. 
 

We’ll keep 5 edges and 5 DT I think. Four backers. 10 DB

 

Young, Sweat, Toohill, JSW, Henry

Payne, Allen, Obada, Ridgeway, Mathis

Davis, Barton, Hudson, ???

Forbes, Fuller, St Juste, Dantzler, Johnson

Curl, Forrest, Butler, Martin, Reaves

 

Obada, JSW, Johnson are bubble players

Fuller a possible cap casualty. 
Jones/Holmes to PS.

 

Thanks for that! I’ve been wondering how people see the secondary sorting out. 
 

How do you see the depth chart looking with those guys in terms of outside CB vs slot and which safeties play in which situations, base, nickel, etc?

 

 

 

 

[KDawg]

1 hour ago, Anselmheifer said:

 

Thanks for that! I’ve been wondering how people see the secondary sorting out. 
 

How do you see the depth chart looking with those guys in terms of outside CB vs slot and which safeties play in which situations, base, nickel, etc?

 

 

 

 

Not sure yet but I think the starting group will probably be something like:

 

Forbes

Juste

Curl

Forrest

Martin

Barton

Davis

Payne

Allen

Young

Sweat

[PeterMP]

59 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Not sure yet but I think the starting group will probably be something like:

 

Forbes

Juste

Curl

Forrest

Martin

Barton

Davis

Payne

Allen

Young

Sweat

 

Are you predicting Juste and Forbes over Fuller because you think that Fuller will be gone or Juste and Fuller are the better players/better in some combo/scheme?

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, PeterMP said:

 

Are you predicting Juste and Forbes over Fuller because you think that Fuller will be gone or Juste and Fuller are the better players/better in some combo/scheme?

Because I think they are better suited to full time duty. But I think Fuller will see the field quite a bit, including when Juste inevitably misses 9 games.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

I'm also wondering if they want to keep Fuller and use him more on possible run downs while Forbes is in for likely pass downs. Until they can figure out if Forbes size will be something opposing offenses will target with action to his side.

[wit33]

1 hour ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

I'm also wondering if they want to keep Fuller and use him more on possible run downs while Forbes is in for likely pass downs. Until they can figure out if Forbes size will be something opposing offenses will target with action to his side.

Targeting a DB in the run game is folklore.
 

Forbes will be able to play fight on the edges of the field like every other DB and WR. DBs aren’t expected to take on lead blockers or shed guys. Shoot gaps and dive for ankles like the other 95% do. 
 

He seems slippery and has great anticipation to shoot gaps, I could easily see him doing well in the run game. 

[KDawg]

Quote

@FuriousD I’m curious about how Buffalo and regular nickel differ. Apologies for lowering the tone of the discussion somewhat but (as an immigrant to this country) what I learned about football over the years came primarily from playing madden.

 

Madden has Nickel formation in most playbooks and Big Nickel available in some. The principal difference seems to be where the 5th DB lines up. Weak side in Nickel and strong side in Big Nickel. 
 

Is Madden’s Big Nickel equivalent to the Buffalo Nickel you guys are talking about?

 

The Buffalo Nickel would be a safety. The regular nickel is more of a DB. But it's a whole bunch of differing terminology to essentially describe a 4-2-5 defense.

 

You have 4 down linemen.

 

2 Inside linebackers somewhere in the box (DE to DE).

 

2 hybrid defenders that can play the run a little and good in coverage on the slots.

 

2 corners.

 

1 high safety.

 

You can vary the alignments. You can have 4 DL, 2 ILB, 1 hybrid, 2 corners, 2 high defenders, etc.

 

But the personnel is generally 4-2-5 personnel. The two hybrid defenders are your typical nickels. 

[Skinsinparadise]

4 hours ago, wit33 said:

Targeting a DB in the run game is folklore.
 

Forbes will be able to play fight on the edges of the field like every other DB and WR. DBs aren’t expected to take on lead blockers or shed guys. Shoot gaps and dive for ankles like the other 95% do. 
 

He seems slippery and has great anticipation to shoot gaps, I could easily see him doing well in the run game. 

 

Maybe not targeting -- though Smoot who is beyond Forbes' biggest fan actually did say he expects him to be targeted in one of the zillion Smoot segments on the player.

 

But for me tough to imagine a run game centered around finding a CB.  But who knows.

 

 I do think though he needs to bulk up to help with the run game.  Going back to Smoot he said he put on 15 pounds to get up to 190 to help him with the run game and durability.  I imagne Forbes will try to bulk up to 180.  Some say he's at 175 already now, if that's true, that's a great start. 

 

In college he seemed to deal with the run game by often flinging his whole body into the tackle.  He didn''t have a hot tackle score-rating from PFF.  If he bulked up, I don't think he'd have to worry about it.   Throwing your whole body into blocks into the NFL might get your hurt.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Maybe not targeting -- though Smoot who is beyond Forbes' biggest fan actually did say he expects him to be targeted in one of the zillion Smoot segments on the player.

 

But for me tough to imagine a run game centered around finding a CB.  But who knows.

 

 I do think though he needs to bulk up to help with the run game.  Going back to Smoot he said he put on 15 pounds to get up to 190 to help him with the run game and durability.  I imagne Forbes will try to bulk up to 180.  Some say he's at 175 already now, if that's true, that's a great start. 

 

In college he seemed to deal with the run game by often flinging his whole body into the tackle.  He didn''t have a hot tackle score-rating from PFF.  If he bulked up, I don't think he'd have to worry about it.   Throwing your whole body into blocks into the NFL might get your hurt.

The run game wouldn't be designed to target a CB. But exterior runs inevitably bring the corner into the equation.

 

Forbes is aggressive, though. So he'll hold his own. I worry more about jailbreak screens and HB screens where the OL are getting a running start and barreling down in that direction. 

[Warhead36]

Yeah this notion that Forbes is gonna be some massive liability in run defense is silly. Every CB is gonna get blown up by OL in the run game. Forbes would be no more a weakness in that area than any other CB. That's why we have the big boys up front to take care of the dirty work.

 

And from his highlights he's actually a pretty willing and capable tackler. Once he gets up to around 180 ish he should be fine.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

Action to his side isn't just stretch runs over and over again. It's also where the RB usually leaks out to after checking for pass blocking. Or rub routes at the LoS. Or TE going shallow off play action.

 

You don't need deeper routes in longer developing plays if you can reliably get YAC that accomplishes the same thing.

[PlayAction]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 I do think though he needs to bulk up to help with the run game.  Going back to Smoot he said he put on 15 pounds to get up to 190 to help him with the run game and durability.  I imagne Forbes will try to bulk up to 180.  Some say he's at 175 already now, if that's true, that's a great start. 

 

 

At 6'1", 180lbs doesn't seem "bulked up".  Haha.  I'm sure that the team will decide it's wise to assign him a nutritionist and eating plan.  Protein and the right carbs + weight room should be able to add muscle weight to his frame.  

 

I hope the team doesn't cut Fuller - he was still performing well as an outside corner and the team needs quality depth for the inevitable hamstring pulls or other injuries.  Fingers crossed that St Juste stays concussion free this season.  It would be a shame for him to have to retire at such a young age.

 

The safety group and DL seem to be in great shape this year.  Hopefully injury free.  The big question mark, in my mind, is still the LB core.  We had issues before but we've lost Cole Holecomb.  

[RandyHolt]

After seeing we had to make room to sign rookies and seeing that we chose 2 DBs to start the draft, I presumed Fuller was going to be a cap causality.

 

Forbes is going to take his hits. Maybe the worst will be from friendly fire. He'll dodge or duck out from the OL but its inevitable an OL drops on him. Corner is a very difficult position to play physically we all know that and IMO potential injury is the biggest risk by taking corner in round 1.

 

The fact that teams ditched the FB for a WR presume help keep a CBs health insurance premium lower.

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by RandyHolt

[Warhead36]

I don't think there is any chance we cut Fuller unless Forbes and St. Juste look like prime Darrell Green and Champ Bailey or something and even then, you need three starting caliber CBs. Fuller doesn't make THAT much money and is still a good player.

[RandyHolt]

33 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I don't think there is any chance we cut Fuller unless Forbes and St. Juste look like prime Darrell Green and Champ Bailey or something and even then, you need three starting caliber CBs. Fuller doesn't make THAT much money and is still a good player.

IIRC Its not salary its cap savings that we need should be looking at. I have no idea how much room we need but this site implies he gives the most bang for the buck.

 

https://overthecap.com/salary-cap/washington-commanders

 

What happened to the good ole days of converting salary to bonuses and never having a worry in the world about the cap. it wasnt that long ago that there weren't even cap tracking websites since the NFLs cap was such a joke and easily circumvented by cash deep teams. To compare, the NHL has had cap tracking websites for probably 15 years now. NHL diehards know they had a real cap.

 

I think I read that Fuller is better outside and may be homeless if BSJ and Forbes man those spots. 11.6 is a big cap hit for a backup corner. Seeing Will Jackson costing us 9 still makes me question RR/JDRs judgement when choosing corners/system fits.

Edited May 4, 2023 by RandyHolt

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, PlayAction said:

 

At 6'1", 180lbs doesn't seem "bulked up".  Haha.  I'm sure that the team will decide it's wise to assign him a nutritionist and eating plan.  Protein and the right carbs + weight room should be able to add muscle weight to his frame.  

 

I hope the team doesn't cut Fuller - he was still performing well as an outside corner and the team needs quality depth for the inevitable hamstring pulls or other injuries.  Fingers crossed that St Juste stays concussion free this season.  It would be a shame for him to have to retire at such a young age.

 

The safety group and DL seem to be in great shape this year.  Hopefully injury free.  The big question mark, in my mind, is still the LB core.  We had issues before but we've lost Cole Holecomb.  

 

180 i think might be good enough, lol, but will see.  Yeah I agree i like the secondaty and D line and its depth now.  Keim doesn't think they will cut Fuller, so that's good, if so.

43 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

IIRC Its not salary its cap savings that we need should be looking at. I have no idea how much room we need but this site implies he gives the most bang for the buck.

 

https://overthecap.com/salary-cap/washington-commanders

 

What happened to the good ole days of converting salary to bonuses and never having a worry in the world about the cap. it wasnt that long ago that there weren't even cap tracking websites since the NFLs cap was such a joke and easily circumvented by cash deep teams. To compare, the NHL has had cap tracking websites for probably 15 years now. NHL diehards know they had a real cap.

 

I think I read that Fuller is better outside and may be homeless if BSJ and Forbes man those spots. 11.6 is a big cap hit for a backup corner. Seeing Will Jackson costing us 9 still makes me question RR/JDRs judgement when choosing corners/system fits.

 

Vinny Cerrato and Dan would major in it -- punt the cap challanges forward and hope they cap keeps going up.  Sometimes it work, sometimes not,  I recall them blaming losing Antonio Pierce to this dynamic -- too much cap challenges after enacting too much of this punt forward approach.  The Rams rode this approach for awhile but now have to reset and rebuild because of it but it helped them for years.

 

In recent years, Dan has been cash poor, very cash poor according to some.  So those days are gone. 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

I don't care if Forbes ever records a tackle if he become a pick machine. Let him be the next Deon and change games constantly. We've lacked a playmaker on defense for forever, no matter how many good players we have.

[oraphus]

I dont get this fear with losing Fuller, the guy is a below average corner at this stage.. and was nothing special to begin with. It doesn't make sense to cut him because rookie corners are completely unproven but at his current contract its a bad deal. If fuller is force to play outside again... we are in trouble. 

[Est.1974]

Just now, oraphus said:

I dont get this fear with losing Fuller, the guy is a below average corner at this stage.. and was nothing special to begin with. It doesn't make sense to cut him because rookie corners are completely unproven but at his current contract its a bad deal. If fuller is force to play outside again... we are in trouble. 

Agreed. I’d ship him out on balance.

 

Only caveat, Quan may start at FS and Fuller insider with Forbes and BSJ outside. That works.
 

Best end of 9m for the season is still too rich for my money though. Most FO would be moving him on or restructuring in my opinion.

[wit33]

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Maybe not targeting -- though Smoot who is beyond Forbes' biggest fan actually did say he expects him to be targeted in one of the zillion Smoot segments on the player.

 

But for me tough to imagine a run game centered around finding a CB.  But who knows.

 

I hope he does what feels right and best for him physically to perform. He certainly represents an extreme when it comes to weight. 

 

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 I do think though he needs to bulk up to help with the run game.  Going back to Smoot he said he put on 15 pounds to get up to 190 to help him with the run game and durability.  I imagne Forbes will try to bulk up to 180.  Some say he's at 175 already now, if that's true, that's a great start. 
 

 

To be honest, I wouldn’t want him to get any more involved in the run game than he does now fnhe put weight on. The risk reward for a DB playing physical near the line of scrimmage isn’t there for me. Sure, shoot gaps, force guys to the edge or back towards the middle and dive for ankles, but have zero interest in the dude providing a physical presence or bringing the lumber lol

 

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

In college he seemed to deal with the run game by often flinging his whole body into the tackle.  He didn''t have a hot tackle score-rating from PFF.  If he bulked up, I don't think he'd have to worry about it.   Throwing your whole body into blocks into the NFL might get your hurt.

 

Not sure 10-15 pounds is going yo make any difference in the situations many are worried about. 
 

Olineman or TE vs DB who weight 175 or 190 makes no difference IMO. 
 

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

The run game wouldn't be designed to target a CB. But exterior runs inevitably bring the corner into the equation.

 

Would this situation for a DB be about football physicality or IQ?

 

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

Forbes is aggressive, though. So he'll hold his own. I worry more about jailbreak screens and HB screens where the OL are getting a running start and barreling down in that direction. 

Bad defense if your DB finds self in this situation. A safety is dead in same situation. 

[oraphus]

7 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

Agreed. I’d ship him out on balance.

 

Only caveat, Quan may start at FS and Fuller insider with Forbes and BSJ outside. That works.
 

Best end of 9m for the season is still too rich for my money though. Most FO would be moving him on or restructuring in my opinion.

Even playing nickel he is largely a liability... i am actually surprised this FO hasnt approached him about a pay cut.. maybe they are waiting to see what they have in the rookies. Or more likely this FO is largely incompetent and while every other GM is playing chess... Ron is playing plinko 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, wit33 said:

 

 

Bad defense if your DB finds self in this situation. A safety is dead in same situation. 

 

It's bad defense to have a jailbreak screen play be run? DBs have to be a part of the action at times. It's just the game. 

[wit33]

 

31 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

It's bad defense to have a jailbreak screen play be run? DBs have to be a part of the action at times. It's just the game. 

If DB is left alone to defend a HB screen with blockers runnign at him, yes, bad defense. 

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

If DB is left alone to defend a HB screen with blockers runnign at him, yes, bad defense. 

Left alone? You realize those plays happen fast and the rest of the D has to rally over, right? The hybrid and the corner are the first two there. Sometimes the receiver will be assigned to kick out the CB, sometimes they block down to the backer level and the OL head straight for the corners.

 

There are downsides to that, too. See: Kentucky vs. Forbes film. Also see: OL not moving well enough.

 

But it’s part of the push and pull of football.