All things defense

[Warhead36]

I put the Davis at MLB experiment on Rivera. That's a Head Coach decision, not a D-Coord one.

[Conn]

1 hour ago, redskinss said:

I know this is a discussion forum and that's what it's all about and I don't criticize fans for doing it but it does amuse me when fans get all bent out of shape about minute details of the offense and defense and then pretend like they know more than the coordinator. 

The worst coordinator in the nfl has forgotten more about the sport than the biggest fan will ever know.

If anybody on this board were to sit down with del Rio and start railing on him about how he played collins out of position last year, his reply would turn their brain to mush trying to understand it.

Rookies who have been playing the sport at an elite level their entire lives get caught in a daze trying to catch up to the intricacies of the nfl.

I just go by a combination of past and present results and I'm not even close to giving up on del rio just because we struggled last year to start off.

I mean, this is always fair and it’s good to be reminded to have perspective about these things. And not everyone on the board has the sort of X’s and O’s knowledge that for instance KDawg has. But this sort of appeal to authority is also a well-known fallacy that you have to keep aware of—in fact, it’s called the appeal to authority fallacy lol. And it’s important to remember because even the least qualified DC in NFL history would still have all of the things you said apply to them. And that doesn’t make them good at their job or beyond criticism. Yes, even from dummies in the fanbase. You can know something is wrong by comparing it to better examples across the league without needing to be an expert yourself, is all I’m saying. It’s always worth remembering that these guys have a lot of experience and sometimes even a history of success behind them. But they can still be bad at their jobs or make mistakes, especially in this league full of nepotism. It’s by no means a fair meritocracy. 

[redskinss]

19 minutes ago, Conn said:

I mean, this is always fair and it’s good to be reminded to have perspective about these things. And not everyone on the board has the sort of X’s and O’s knowledge that for instance KDawg has. But this sort of appeal to authority is also a well-known fallacy that you have to keep aware of—in fact, it’s called the appeal to authority fallacy lol. And it’s important to remember because even the least qualified DC in NFL history would still have all of the things you said apply to them. And that doesn’t make them good at their job or beyond criticism. Yes, even from dummies in the fanbase. You can know something is wrong by comparing it to better examples across the league without needing to be an expert yourself, is all I’m saying. It’s always worth remembering that these guys have a lot of experience and sometimes even a history of success behind them. But they can still be bad at their jobs or make mistakes, especially in this league full of nepotism. It’s by no means a fair meritocracy. 

Fair points, and I agree that nobody is above criticism, just that the justified criticism almost always comes from someone as knowledgeable or more knowledgeable than they are.

If a surgeon makes a controversial decision his criticism should come from other surgeons not people who have watched E.R.

Those people have a right to their opinion but are for the most part usually ignorant to the intricate details.

That's all I'm saying. 

Edited August 5, 2022 by redskinss

[philibusters]

I was listening to one of the PFF podcasts, I think it was the PFF NFL podcast with Sam and Steve and they talked about Jamin Davis in the episode where they previewed the NFC East and AFC East.  They said LB in the modern NFL is different than linebacker 20 years ago because you are targeted so much more in the pass game.   It used to be your primary job was the stop the run and a secondary job was to either rush the passer or try to get in the passing lanes if they passed, but that took a back seat to stopping the run.  So if you bit on play action too much that was undesireable, but you could see be a good player if you can stuff the run.  Now teams pass more and they pass game is shorter, so more passes overall and more in the part of the field where the linebackers.   In the modern NFL, linebackers have two primary jobs where neither takes priority over the other and it makes it more difficult on linebackers.  One of the hosted cited a study that showed linebackers have a slower learning curve than other position and it is an usually position as in that the best linebackers are a bit older than at other positions.  At a lot of other positions, players in their fourth and fifth years at a position should be expected to be the best players in the league at that position, but for linebacker its a little older.

 

Taking an athletic but raw linebacker may not be good because it could be that you are developing that player for his next team.  Better to have a guy who can step in right away like Devin Lloyd are the like.   By that logic, the Packers made a mistake with Quay Walker and the Commanders made a mistake with Jamin Davis.

[Conn]

1 hour ago, redskinss said:

Fair points, and I agree that nobody is above criticism, just that the justified criticism almost always comes from someone as knowledgeable or more knowledgeable than they are.

If a surgeon makes a controversial decision his criticism should come from other surgeons not people who have watched E.R.

Those people have a right to their opinion but are for the most part usually ignorant to the intricate details.

That's all I'm saying. 

Sure, but even as an ignorant bystander I know a surgeon isn’t supposed to close up their patient with gauze still inside them. And to a lot of people that’s the category starting Collins over Curl for so long fell into. Stuff even a dummy could foresee. 

[method man]

3 hours ago, philibusters said:

I was listening to one of the PFF podcasts, I think it was the PFF NFL podcast with Sam and Steve and they talked about Jamin Davis in the episode where they previewed the NFC East and AFC East.  They said LB in the modern NFL is different than linebacker 20 years ago because you are targeted so much more in the pass game.   It used to be your primary job was the stop the run and a secondary job was to either rush the passer or try to get in the passing lanes if they passed, but that took a back seat to stopping the run.  So if you bit on play action too much that was undesireable, but you could see be a good player if you can stuff the run.  Now teams pass more and they pass game is shorter, so more passes overall and more in the part of the field where the linebackers.   In the modern NFL, linebackers have two primary jobs where neither takes priority over the other and it makes it more difficult on linebackers.  One of the hosted cited a study that showed linebackers have a slower learning curve than other position and it is an usually position as in that the best linebackers are a bit older than at other positions.  At a lot of other positions, players in their fourth and fifth years at a position should be expected to be the best players in the league at that position, but for linebacker its a little older.

 

Taking an athletic but raw linebacker may not be good because it could be that you are developing that player for his next team.  Better to have a guy who can step in right away like Devin Lloyd are the like.   By that logic, the Packers made a mistake with Quay Walker and the Commanders made a mistake with Jamin Davis.

 

This makes sense. I don't have anything to back this up but if you take a look at PFF grades, linebackers seem to have the worst grades of any position group. There are a lot of guys in the 40s and 50s (and even 30s at times) who started a lot of games last season

[Dark Acre]

3 hours ago, Conn said:

but even as an ignorant bystander I know a surgeon isn’t supposed to close up their patient with gauze still inside them.

That's the nurse's job.  (j/k, to all the hardworking nurses out there.)

[TheShredder]

Talent gets you fired in the NFL because you're judged on performance. Jamin is physically talented, mentally challenged, and lacks the experience to handle the difference.

They are literally 1 injury away from not being able to stop any offense in the NFL (which was about the same as 2021 on 3rd down)..

They've put all there eggs in one basket with Holcomb. Jamin Davis is a wild swing and a miss. Not smart enough to process the NFL speed and concepts.

Defense will be the reason the team wins or looses unless the team can avg +30 pts per game.

 

JDR has no NEW revolutionary defense 🤣🤣🤣

Edited August 5, 2022 by TheShredder

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, TheShredder said:

Talent gets you fired in the NFL because you're judged on performance. Jamin is physically talented, mentally challenged, and lacks the experience to handle the difference.

They are literally 1 injury away from not being able to stop any offense in the NFL (which was about the same as 2021 on 3rd down)..

They've put all there eggs in one basket with Holcomb. Jamin Davis is a wild swing and a miss. Not smart enough to process the NFL speed and concepts.

Defense will be the reason the team wins or looses unless the team can avg +30 pts per game.

 

JDR has no NEW revolutionary defense 🤣🤣🤣

You are so over the top on your assessment of Davis and the defense in general. Could you be right? Sure, but it's unlikely that it will be as dramatically bad as you are making it out to be. 

[TheShredder]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

You are so over the top on your assessment of Davis and the defense in general. Could you be right? Sure, but it's unlikely that it will be as dramatically bad as you are making it out to be. 

Fun Fact 1: Jamin Davis only ever started one football season at LB'er before last year.

Fun Fact 2: Jamin Davis was last defending the pass in 2021.

Fun Camp Note: Jamin Davis is behind David Mayo in rushing package, but starting in pass package (see Fun Fact 2).

[Koolblue13]

8 hours ago, TheShredder said:

Fun Fact 1: Jamin Davis only ever started one football season at LB'er before last year.

Fun Fact 2: Jamin Davis was last defending the pass in 2021.

Fun Camp Note: Jamin Davis is behind David Mayo in rushing package, but starting in pass package (see Fun Fact 2).

Davis doesn't look great, Wentz isn't shining, our Oline looks hurt already, Gibson still has the fumbles, Cam might be WR3 because Brown stinks and Samuels is hurt again.

 

Lots of stuff to grab on to if you want to complain. It looks like what they want to do on defense is a 5 man line and 3 safeties in base and it worked well with Collins last year.

[Berggy9598]

8 hours ago, TheShredder said:

Fun Fact 1: Jamin Davis only ever started one football season at LB'er before last year.

Fun Fact 2: Jamin Davis was last defending the pass in 2021.

Fun Camp Note: Jamin Davis is behind David Mayo in rushing package, but starting in pass package (see Fun Fact 2).

Is there a fun fact about how many seasons he’s been in the NFL? 

[redskinss]

34 minutes ago, Berggy9598 said:

Is there a fun fact about how many seasons he’s been in the NFL? 

He did kind of contradict his own point a little with that fun fact.

As stated before jamin was incredibly raw.

Was he a reach at 19, certainly looks that way, but you can't draft a guy that raw and expect him to shine right away.

Jamin very well could end up a bust but it's just too early to give up on him yet.

[Going Commando]

16 hours ago, method man said:

 

This makes sense. I don't have anything to back this up but if you take a look at PFF grades, linebackers seem to have the worst grades of any position group. There are a lot of guys in the 40s and 50s (and even 30s at times) who started a lot of games last season

 

They don't know how to grade LBer play.  I think they do a poor job grading and weighting run defense and run blocking and rushing in general and it leads to them missing on things like the value of Derek Henry right as he was breaking out into OPOTY form.  But it really shows up in the wildly divergent grades they give to LBers, many of which don't pass the smell test.  For example, Logan Wilson is a kickass player and they gave him a 54 last season. That is like 30 points too low.  Their grading system is the problem, not the position.  I don't think they really understand what teams are expecting of their LBers/how they are using them, and on top of the PFF systematically undervalues and misinterprets performance in the run game across nearly every position that is heavily involved in that part of football.

[Koolblue13]

Linebackers are responsible for what happens on every single play, pass or run, but what they do doesn't show up, without some kind of actual stat. If  LBer is good at filling holes in the line or in zones and pushing plays off to other areas, they're doing a great job, but you won't know it, unless you know the play. If one LBer can take a spot away and the pass gets forced to another spot and is picked, the LBer gets no credit.

[TheShredder]

11 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Davis doesn't look great, Wentz isn't shining, our Oline looks hurt already, Gibson still has the fumbles, Cam might be WR3 because Brown stinks and Samuels is hurt again.

 

Lots of stuff to grab on to if you want to complain. It looks like what they want to do on defense is a 5 man line and 3 safeties in base and it worked well with Collins last year.

This team is in shambles and the crowd narrative is double digit wins! 🤣🤣

It's calling it as I see it. Fan hope and athletic potential is not how you win on Sundays.

No longer a RR & Co. supporter. Watched them make too many mistakes in drafting and roster moves, to depth chart and scheme, all the way to coaching deficiencies (particularly on defense). Ron Rivera is a nice guy. He's not a winning Head Coach (3 winning seasons out of 11).

 

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, TheShredder said:

This team is in shambles and the crowd narrative is double digit wins! 🤣🤣

It's calling it as I see it. Fan hope and athletic potential is not how you win on Sundays.

No longer a RR & Co. supporter. Watched them make too many mistakes in drafting and roster moves, to depth chart and scheme, all the way to coaching deficiencies (particularly on defense). Ron Rivera is a nice guy. He's not a winning Head Coach (3 winning seasons out of 11).

 

You've got to be kidding me. Shambles? We're about to hover around .500 for 3 consecutive years. We haven't has success in Washington like that in eons.

[CommanderCarson]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

You've got to be kidding me. Shambles? We're about to hover around .500 for 3 consecutive years. We haven't has success in Washington like that in eons.

Except we had 4 straight 7 plus winning seasons from 2015 to 2018 under Jay and Bruce. 
 

That’s not exactly the goal but just pointing it out.

[RandyHolt]

On 8/5/2022 at 11:55 AM, Warhead36 said:

I put the Davis at MLB experiment on Rivera. That's a Head Coach decision, not a D-Coord one.

I would like to think they were both all in on Jamin.  Those 2 should be joined at the hip one mind on what LB they want.  I think that pick was a cloud over our D brain trust the entire year and yes that includes RR. It's not always just fans losing faith in coaching seeing a 1st flop. Defensive players should be ready to go out of the gate and moves like that can be demoralizing for the entire org. Failing on a first can and will hurt for years.

[sebestian]

Bleacher Report

 

@BleacherReport

·

1h

 

Roquan Smith has requested a trade from the Bears, saying they've "refused to negotiate in good faith" during contract talks

@brgridiron

 

It would cost a lot, however we should def make a phone call.  

 

What do you guys think.

[Wildbunny]

Figured this should go here I believe, thought other thread may be compliant too...

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/08/09/commanders-fire-dl-coach-sam-mills-iii/

 

Seems like Sam Mills III has been fired.

[Conn]

Very very strange timing, isn’t it? 

[Forehead]

I remember watching Roquan Smith in college and was blown away.  If he's still close to that same player (I don't watch many Bears games) I'd kick the tires in him for sure.

[veteranskinsfan]

Mills father goes into the Hall of Fame this past weekend and his son gets fired today.

Ron is going to have a year he will never forget.  I cannot see this year being positive but the jury is still out of course.

[Malapropismic Depository]

Welcome, Coach Z.

Ours is called the Z-fense now