Heinicke Hive: The LEGEND of Taylor Heinicke Thread

[Malapropismic Depository]

4 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

 But that speaks  more to our poor history with QBs. 

 

 

So perhaps, a better way of asking it, is how many of the NFL's current starters would you want over him, in the scenario he described ; "If it is late in the 4th quarter and we are down by four"

[Skinsinparadise]

Do we still need A-Rod?

 

 

 

2 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

My completely subjective view is what we are seeing over the last two games seems to be a different dude that lit up the Falcons. There seems to be an increase in composure, decisiveness, confidence in where to go with the ball, and game management from standpoint of every play not having to be an amazing play (competent/veteran type play). The previous traits combined with his charisma (on the field) and moxie has me intrigued. 
 

I was a supporter of having a QB with some moxie and guts and rolling with that ceiling, but these two games has shown another side of the dude that I wasn’t sure was there. 

 

Feel the same way.   To me the obvious key X factor is he's not turning the ball over whether its picks or fumbles.   

[wit33]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Do we still need A-Rod?

 

 

 

 

Feel the same way.   To me the obvious key X factor is he's not turning the ball over whether its picks or fumbles.   

Lol… Might need Heineke to get Arod. If he leads the team to the playoffs, then that bodes well for the organization to sell the roster being championship level. 
 

What’s your view on Heineke as an option for next season?

[skinny21]

3 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

We've passed the ball the 4rth least in the league the last 2 games and I think that's a huge reason why we're winning. 38.46% of the plays were passing plays yesterday. We were 22nd in pass ratio, but we've been getting away from that. Using the run to set up the pass and especially the PA passing is working great. Going into our bye, we were 16th, but top 10 in most passing the games we lost big and we were in those games, so that wasn't the issue. Getting away from the run and trying to rely on Heinicke to win it was the issue.

Wholeheartedly agree.  I will say that Heinicke has looked a lot more comfortable and accurate these past couple games.  He’s also done quite well in obvious passing situations.  Didn’t convert the three 3rd and 16s, but converted a 3rd and 21 (getting to a manageable 4th down) and multiple 3rd and longs as well as a few 4th and 3-5s (and 3rd and mediums).  Point being, he’s looked pretty good in known passing situations (and against good defenses), so it’s possible he’s made strides toward being able to carry the team in a pass heavy game plan.  I’m digging the Alex Smith formula though.

 

On a broader note, I think I’m leaning more toward putting the GB game in the ‘good game, but just didn’t work out’ category, rather than the ‘oh look, another 10 point game from Heinicke’.  If Terry catches that pass and Taylor doesn’t go down before the end zone - he’d have given Rodgers a run for his money.  It’s a bit of a generous outlook, but 1) we didn’t punt, 2) he put up a ton of yards, 3) his performance the past couple weeks have warranted a slightly more understanding outlook.  The Denver game wasn’t all that dissimilar.  We scored 10, but our kicker Blewitt twice, we should probably taken the 3 points on the first drive, etc.  Heck, look at Gibson’s fumble yesterday - we probably should have had an easy win - or his fumble against the Chargers - a (potential) game changing negative play.  

 

Not trying to re-write history here; every qb has to overcome negative plays, near misses, etc, and it’s the ones that do it regularly that get the plaudits and the franchise qb label.  With Taylor, we can talk about the fact he’s been in the league a while, but there’s no substitution for game experience.  And I think we’ve seen growth from him as he’s gained that experience.  He’s not pressing as much, looks more comfortable and accurate, and has improved his chemistry with his pass catchers.  He’s doing it with a fairly questionable supporting cast too.

 

Bottom line, he answered questions of durability, and his accuracy has improved, two of three things I was most worried about in terms of his long term prospects.  Arm strength was the 3rd issue.  In a way, I think the jury’s still out on this one.  I say that because while it’s certainly below average, when he plants and drives it’s looking like he can make most of the throws he needs to.  I’m sure he’ll still run into issues at times trying to thread the needle, when he throws a tic late, or trying to beat cover 2 on outside go routes or deeper out breaking routes.  He’ll probably have his share of struggles against defenses that disguise their coverage well.

 

All in all, I do think that Heinicke has shown he’s a guy you can win with.  It’s looking like he’s finding his legs, so to speak.  His season has been about top 20 so far, the past 2 games probably top 15 caliber, and it feels like that’s probably his ceiling.  Caliber of play-wise (not stylistically), he’s got an Alex Smith, Ryan Tannehill type of vibe/potential.  So he’s a guy I’m happy to have, trust with the reins, but he’s also not stopping me from trying to go after/develop a top 5 or top 10 level qb.  I’m also not throwing him to the curb because I think we can do better.

 

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by skinny21

[Conn]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

Mina speaks like someone who doesn’t follow this team or Heinicke.

 

Heinicke has helped McLaurin in many ways this season. Make no mistake, McLaurin has bailed on Heinicke a ton. Most of the time Terry is making adjustments and fantastic catches that make Taylor look more polished. That is absolutely true.

 

But credit where credit is due. Heinicke is putting the ball out there in places for McLaurin to have a chance to make plays. Terry has had good seasons with us with mediocre at best QB play for his entire career, but Heinicke is giving him more chances. 
 

Yes, with a stud he’d be a lot of fun to watch so that much I agree with Mina on. But at this point it’s fair to say Plan B is on the roster and reaching for a different Plan B just because is a mistake. Plan A is the only answer with Plan B in place.

 

Now the hard part: finding a stud.

I don’t think she’d disagree with you on any of that given what I’ve heard her say, even if she went a little overboard in that tweet. It’s more of an “imagine how good this guy would be with a Rodgers or Mahomes” situation imo. Hell she’s actually the originator of the “Heinicke Hive” moniker lol

[Conn]

19 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

 

So perhaps, a better way of asking it, is how many of the NFL's current starters would you want over him, in the scenario he described ; "If it is late in the 4th quarter and we are down by four"

Way way more than you’d be comfortable reading, sorry. It’s not the only “metric” I’d value if I had the entire league to choose from, personally. Because it’s not the only time the QB sees the field, and as much as people argue he is still growing, that’s also the case for a lot of the guys I’d take over him. But he is absolutely a gamer in those situations! I wouldn’t argue that at all. 

He’s playing much much better right now and making plays as if that slump never happened—it’s great to see and I’m letting it play out. Do I still dream of a #1-#5 overall type athletic phenom blue chipper at the position? Sorry, I do. But Heinicke is absolutely the best we can do right now and deserves to be on the roster in the future regardless, barring a future collapse. I’ve said all along, even in my most negative posts, that the guy is fun to watch and is making this mediocre at best season watchable every week. But I dream of the future franchise QB still, yeah. He’s not there for me. 

9 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Lol… Might need Heineke to get Arod. If he leads the team to the playoffs, then that bodes well for the organization to sell the roster being championship level. 
 

What’s your view on Heineke as an option for next season?

This is also how I feel. If luring a big name FA QB like Rodgers is the goal for Rivera in this hypothetical, these games and W’s serve an extremely important purpose. 

[Renegade7]

This "we can do better" conversation is starting to sound familiar...

[CjSuAvE22]

5 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

This "we can do better" conversation is starting to sound familiar...

Correct...we need to know if hes the guy or not and sign him to a manageable deal, Cant let starting caliber qbs walk for free.

 

Even if you weren't high on this kid for whatever reason (I wasn't) you have to be happy with his progression so far, because he has definitely progressed. 

Edited November 22, 2021 by CjSuAvE22

[Skinsinparadise]

48 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Lol… Might need Heineke to get Arod. If he leads the team to the playoffs, then that bodes well for the organization to sell the roster being championship level. 
 

What’s your view on Heineke as an option for next season?

 

Purely as a dude he might be my favorite WFT QB in my lifetime.  Love his personality and even more so his on the field personality.

 

As a player, I've been a bit of a roller coaster on him.  I am almost afraid to praise him now.  He seems to go in the opposite direction of whereever my opinion goes.    When I was high on him early in the season, all of a sudden he hit a funk.  Then I got a bit down on him, and then he got hot again.  So I fear whatever I say now, the opposite will happen.  😀

 

Maybe the one good thing about that is the last player I recall being a roller coaster on was Kirk.  I ended up being seen as very pro Kirk because I took his side on the contract negotiation which I thought Bruce totally botched.  But leading up to that in 2013 and 2014 I was back and forth on Kirk similar to how I am now on Heinicke.

 

I am convinced Heinicke is at least a high end back up and low end starter.   I waffle if he's an average starter depending on the week.   I am convinced he's not a top 10 QB.    As for next year I am ok with him coming back and even starting as long as they draft a QB high.  My only really hardcore position on the qB spot for next season is grab a rookie.  As for who comes along for that ride too, I don't really have a hard opinion on but I can certainly ride with Heinicke and skip a veteran option if that's what they choose. 

 

I suspect they are going to go hard for a veteran.  I think they will swing and miss but still go hard.   The off season should be fun.  

 

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Conn]

17 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

This "we can do better" conversation is starting to sound familiar...

Flashbacks to your divorce proceedings?

 

[Renegade7]

4 minutes ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

Correct...we need to know if hes the guy or not and sign him to a manageable deal, Cant let starting caliber qbs walk for free.

 

I agree. The problem remains, if he is indeed a capable starter, trying to replace him will cause him to leave. 

 

4 minutes ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

Even if you weren't high on this kid for whatever reason (I wasn't) you have to be happy with his progression so far, because he has definitely progressed. 

 

Yea, i agree, at what point do we choose not to replace him?  I saw "if he wins a playoff game" floated around, thats the line for me, no matter what I feel about his limitations, he pulls off something we haven't done in 16 years the conversation has to change.

 

We keep saying let's see what happens, but not what he actually has to do to keep the job.  If its be Aaron Rodgers, we're setting ourselves up for failure.

6 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

Flashbacks to your divorce proceedings?

 

 

Lol, starts with a K and rhymes with jerk...

[Malapropismic Depository]

23 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I am convinced Heinicke is at least a high end back up and low end starter. 
 

 

 

 

To use Kyle Allen as a comparison, I believe most people view Allen as a high-end backup, if I'm not mistaken.

And Heinicke seems clearly above Allen's "rating".

So, wouldn't that eliminate Heinicke from the backup department, and put him in some kind of "starter rating" ?

[Koolblue13]

26 minutes ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

Correct...we need to know if hes the guy or not and sign him to a manageable deal, Cant let starting caliber qbs walk for free.

 

Even if you weren't high on this kid for whatever reason (I wasn't) you have to be happy with his progression so far, because he has definitely progressed. 

He's not a kid and he is signed.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

[ThomasRoane]

25 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

We've passed the ball the 4rth least in the league the last 2 games and I think that's a huge reason why we're winning. 38.46% of the plays were passing plays yesterday. We were 22nd in pass ratio, but we've been getting away from that. Using the run to set up the pass and especially the PA passing is working great. Going into our bye, we were 16th, but top 10 in most passing the games we lost big and we were in those games, so that wasn't the issue. Getting away from the run and trying to rely on Heinicke to win it was the issue.

 

So, you're saying a good running game is helping Heinicke?  I agree.  I'd been saying for a while now that Turner should be focusing on power and play action.  Really like the boot game and play action.  Heinicke is really good on the move.  I'd imagine Kyle Shanahan would like for Jimmy G to be more like him.

 

But let's not act like that Heinicke is not the only QB who needs a good running game.  Every QB needs to be able to just hand the ball of and let their guy do some work.  You can't expect a QB to work miracle after miracle.  Look at Russell Wilson without a running game.  Vikings have Dalvin Cook back.  And now they're good again.  Look at Rodgers before Aaron Jones and DIllon came along.  Last year, in Tampa's SuperBowl run Fornette was a beast.  

 

But yeah, Heinicke paired up with a strong running game is a good combination.  Imagine him with more weapons to choose from.

10 hours ago, GothSkinsFan said:

TH is a "system" guy.  He's not interchangeable with most other teams.  He doesn't strike me as a guy who's going to 💩 on his first real starting opportunity over a couple million $.  He was taking advanced math finals last year; he can do the calculus.  No need to extend him now.

 

Really?  Imagine Heinicke paired with Kyle Shanahan's running game. 

[Skinsinparadise]

31 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

 

To use Kyle Allen as a comparison, I believe most people view Allen as a high-end backup, if I'm not mistaken.

And Heinicke seems clearly above Allen's "rating".

So, wouldn't that eliminate Heinicke from the backup department, and put him in some kind of "starter rating" ?

 

Keim said a couple of weeks ago that from talking to people at the park the impression he gets is they see Heinicke as a high end backup or low end starter.

 

I said for sure he fit that.  And I waffle as for whether he's an average starter.  

 

The thing is average is rarely a straight line.  You have some killer games, some bad games, some average games.  Heinicke has sort of gone for that ride this season, lets see how the rest unfolds. 

 

As for Kyle Allen, I don't know if I see him as a high end backup-low end starter.    Not sure.    I am definitely more intrigued with Taylor over Allen. 

 

Though I am not really hung up on semantics with Heinicke.  I feel much more chilled about him and the QB debate compared to some of the other QB debates we've all had over the years.  For me it feels real simple:

 

A.  Do I feel Heinicke is the dude to take us to the promised land and or is the guy to make this franchise finally become a consistent winner for years.  Nope.  And I feel that with conviction.  But if I am proven wrong, I'd love it. 

 

B.  Can he be sort of an average QB with the typical highs and lows that even out to average QB play (14-18 type QB).   Maybe.  At a minimum i don't have an argument with anyone wanting to make the case that he has the potential to be a middle of the pack QB.  I see the point.

 

C.  Do I have an issue with those who think he's a low end starter-high end backup?  Nope.  I don't have a beef with that argument either.  I see the point. 

 

So my bottom line is I don't care who is right between B versus C.  I'd prefer B to be true but its still not enough for me.   My mind is obsessed with the college QBs, every weekend I keep watching them.  i am dreaming of gold for a change.  Whether Heinicke is silver or bronze almost depresses me as a debate if we just rest on that alone.  Again, i love the dude.  And heck it stinks to have bad QB play, so he saves us from that.  I greatly appreciate the fun he's brought to some of our games this season. 

 

But IMO to escape what seems to be neverending purgatory for this team -- 6-10, 7-9. and then every 4 years or so we sneak into the playoffs and get knocked out right away -- we need to find our own Russell Wilson, or Justin Herbert, etc.  

Edited November 22, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Malapropismic Depository]

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

But IMO to escape what seems to be neverending purgatory for this team -- 6-10, 7-9. and then every 4 years or so we sneak into the playoffs and get knocked out right away -- we need to find our own Russell Wilson, or Justin Herbert, etc.  

 

Yes, and the million dollar question is : Can we ?

Finding that level of QB is not nearly as easy as some make it out to be.

My concern is the possibility that we let Heinicke walk for some reason, and then end up in an even worse QB situation ; basically right back where we started.

[Skinsinparadise]

20 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

Yes, and the million dollar question is : Can we ?

 

 

Arguably no team has been worse swinging for it in the last 30 years.  But I've argued our lack of success isn't a shocker considering most of the swings we've made.  Lets hope Hurney who drafted Cam and supposedly according to Keim loved Herbert before the draft can figure it out.  

 

but the bottom line is the mediocrity to bad play from this team is a direct result IMO from the QB play.  So can we find a franchise QB like most teams pulled off at least once during Dan's 20 year reign?  Of course we can.   And we need to.  I don't think this team is going to be the exception to the rule and become a consistent winner without that elusive franchise QB.

 

It might feel like a pipe dream here considering how comically bad Dan and our FO has been at this task but its not seen as some pie and the sky dream from what I can tell with most organizations.  It can be done.  Granted its mystery if our FO breaks the streak on it.

 

20 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

Finding that level of QB is not nearly as easy as some make it out to be.

 

 

I don't know who is saying its easy.   I think the argument is you got to keep trying.  I recall reading a long interview years ago about Howie Roseman who said to win in this league you got to find that elusive franchise QB.  And if you strike out.  Try again.  If you strike out again?  Try again. And then try again until you pull it off.  The Cardinals struck with Rosen and failed.  Then they struck again.  Keep swinging. 

 

20 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

My concern is the possibility that we let Heinicke walk for some reason, and then end up in an even worse QB situation ; basically right back where we started.

 

What does one have to do with another?  Unless the idea is to punt at the QB spot and draft one in 2023.  Heinicke is under contract next year.

 

I know some are thinking abut Kirk.  But coming from the dude who obsessed about the contract negotiation with Kirk and posted on the topic at an obnoxious level.  The problem with that negotiation was Bruce.   To say that Bruce was clownish with it would be a wild understatement.  Without reliving the whole thing, here's what was unique about Bruce.  He went out of his way to piss off the agent and the client in a number of ways where Kirk just wanted out eventually.    Yeah Kirk was uniquely stubborn about wanting guaranteed money.  But Bruce could have had him multiple times cheaper and could have traded him supposedly for at a minimum a high first rounder, yet he didn't do it.     The level of Bruce's stupidity and the degree of him being unlikable hit epic proportions in that negotiation.   I am not worried that our FO or any FO for that matter handling a negotiation that stupidly. 

 

Bruce was so unlikable than Dan ended up the good cop.  A reporter talked about it recently on a Standig podcast, saying he was at a Direct TV event and saw Dan and Kirk huddled up thick as thieves years back when Kirk was here.  So the reporter went to Kirk's people and said hey what's up with Kirk and Dan they looked so chummy.  And they told the reporter, Kirk likes Dan.  The problem is he really dislikes Bruce.  

Edited November 22, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[PartyPosse]

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

This "we can do better" conversation is starting to sound familiar...

If you want to make that comparison in terms of when the brass struggled with what to do and when Kirk finally started to thrive then you're waiting for Taylor to be 35 to pay dividends.

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

I agree. The problem remains, if he is indeed a capable starter, trying to replace him will cause him to leave. 

In my opinion, I don't think there's a single team out there who would sign him while not having a QB competition. The whole thing reminds me of Matt Flynn.

[Renegade7]

Just now, PartyPosse said:

If you want to make that comparison in terms of when the brass struggled with what to do and when Kirk finally started to thrive then you're waiting for Taylor to be 35 to pay dividends.

 

I said familiar, not exact.

 

I didn't want to give Kirk the contract he wanted each time the goal post moved.  Either it was too much and he didn't yet prove he was worth that or eventually it was too much and he didn't prove he was worth it.  We still botched the situation by not getting a trade out of it.

 

Why I say its familiar is because so many of us convinced ourselves we could do better, then he was gone, and instead of doing better we went right back into QB hell.

 

There's no reason to believe that cant happen again.  I'd much rather live with a 14-18 QB for a couple years and see if they can top out on the high end then lose him for nothing and risk being back in QB hell. 

 

Its up to Taylor to avoid another skid the rest of the season like he had before the bye really forcing us to replace him.  We are jus so bad at developing and drafting QBs that I dont want to do it unless we are forced to.

 

I keep hearing try try try again for a better QB, but isn't it obvious by now the grass isn't always greener on the other side?

[mistertim]

38 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

Yes, and the million dollar question is : Can we ?

Finding that level of QB is not nearly as easy as some make it out to be.

My concern is the possibility that we let Heinicke walk for some reason, and then end up in an even worse QB situation ; basically right back where we started.

 

In my mind there isn't a huge difference between having a middle of the pack QB and being a consistently average team that could sneak into the playoffs once or twice (but then get eliminated), and a team with a crappy QB and a crappy record. Neither one of those teams is likely to win a SB and neither one of those QBs is going to be a guy who helps make you a perennial contender for the next 10-15 years.

 

Sure, having a decent QB is definitely more fun to watch, especially if it's a guy like Heinicke. But that doesn't change the fact that you're unlikely to be a long term contender with that guy and you'll also probably never be quite bad enough to be able to draft a top tier QB without selling the farm in future picks. That's why teams keep trying to find that true top tier QB. That's why Miami moved on from Tannehill and why teams just keep drafting QBs over and over.

[PartyPosse]

8 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Why I say its familiar is because so many of us convinced ourselves we could do better, then he was gone, and instead of doing better we went right back into QB hell.

I do think we can do better, but the biggest difference is Kirk was convinced he deserved to be paid like a top 5 QB while Taylor is just trying to prove he belongs. I think (hope?) he understands the game enough to know he's not suddenly going to become an elite QB and it'll always be a QB competition regardless of where he goes. 

[Renegade7]

34 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

 

In my opinion, I don't think there's a single team out there who would sign him while not having a QB competition. The whole thing reminds me of Matt Flynn.

 

Taylor is better then Flynn, at 28 Flynn bounced between three different teams that season alone.  The year before when he left Green Bay for Seattle, he didn't start a single game. 

 

Taylor has already started more games and outperformed Flynn when they were the same age, and its not even close.

 

Right now, it's how Taylor finishes the season.  If these last two games against top 10 defenses are what his ceiling actually is, what does that make him?

 

For many seasons, consistently going to the playoffs has been the red signal flare that things are finally turning around.  But in the case of Taylor keep his job as the starter here, that wouldn't be enough.  Comparing him to Tannehill is a good point, and I'm sure the Titans aren't complaining about it.

[CjSuAvE22]

I don't know why we always go back to cousins, it was a mistake not signing him long term after 2016 period, hes worthy of a long term qb contract I don't care that he chokes at the worst possible times because hes shown over and over that he can play this game at a high level, 21 tds and 2 ints so far this year when was the last time this organization had a qb even close to those statistics?. Yaaaaaaaawn.

 

Anyways back to Heinicke I think if he takes us on a run hes earned himself another year as a starter for this team, I also don't think taking a QB in the draft will is a bad either and may be a good thing to do since in my eyes its best to let a qb sit a year and take stuff in watch the game then throw him out there and potentially get his confidence down the gutter for good. Long story short we have options at QB depending how this season plays out. 

[PartyPosse]

10 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Taylor is better then Flynn, at 28 Flynn bounced between three different teams that season alone.  The year before when he left Green Bay for Seattle, he didn't start a single game. 

 

Taylor has already started more games and outperformed Flynn when they were the same age, and its not even close.

 

Right now, it's how Taylor finishes the season.  If these last two games against top 10 defenses are what his ceiling actually is, what does that make him?

 

For many seasons, consistently going to the playoffs has been the red signal flare that things are finally turning around.  But in the case of Taylor keep his job as the starter here, that wouldn't be enough.  Comparing him to Tannehill is a good point, and I'm sure the Titans aren't complaining about it.

Not that it matters, but prior to Matt going to Seattle there was a huge buzz around him coming off a 6 TD 450+ yard win against Detroit. He was only I think 24 or so and expectations were fairly lofty when he signed with the Hawks. Went into an open competition, lost his spot to Russell and he was basically done before he was 28. Flynn had been in the league 5 years by the time he reached the age Tyler is now.

 

I think some are putting way too much stock into his performance the last couple of weeks just like some are putting too much stock into his performance the previous few weeks. He's somewhere in the middle, and we'll need the rest of the season to decipher what exactly that means. I don't know if Tannehill is a favorable comparison to anyone as we've seen what he turns into when he loses the best RB in football, which is basically what we saw in Miami.

7 minutes ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

I don't care that he chokes at the worst possible times

You should.

Edited November 22, 2021 by PartyPosse