Heinicke Hive: The LEGEND of Taylor Heinicke Thread

[zCommander]

If it wasn't for the D giving us 6 loses to start the season we would be riding into the playoffs with TH even with the players that he had to work with currently. I wanted to see TH for all 17 games. He is not bad and he is not Arron Rodgers. But then again no one expected him to be. Just wanted to see competent QB play for this season. Taylor wasn't bad and could have been better and if Logan was healthy or McKissic or a we had a true #2 WR or a great running game. These are things a team needs for their QB to be successful. 

 

At least the coaches have a better idea of what they have for next year. 

[Darrell Green Fan]

13 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

Heinicke should be given the same learning curve and excuses as any other rookie QB on any other team. I am not saying he is the answer and would even like to see more of Kyle Allen while we are evaluating guys. But look at the hand he's been dealt this year and it hasn't been a full deck. Don't read into that as me saying TH is our future but until something better comes around our management better figure out a way to bring more playmakers in here on both sides of the ball or no QB will succeed. 

Ditto...he can win for you given a solid supporting cast. 

 

But he is not a rookie.  Will the flattening of the learning curve suddenly make his arm strong and accurate? No that will never ever happen, he will never be good enough to be a starter on a team with actual title aspirations.  Never.  

Edited January 3, 2022 by Darrell Green Fan

[zCommander]

49 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

But he is not a rookie.  Will the flattening of the learning curve suddenly make his arm strong and accurate? No that will never ever happen, he will never be good enough to be a starter on a team with actual title aspirations.  Never.  

 

I really hate it when someone says NEVER. Like you have a crystal ball and can see things no one can. 🙄

[mistertim]

7 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

While all of this is true this is a Taylor Heinke thread.  We are evaluating Heinke here and the evidence is overwhelming where you sound like you are making excuses for his poor play as you point out his good run in December while ignoring the other games both before and after that run.    

 

This sort of stuff is basically par for the course when it comes to a handful of TH supporters here.

 

Things went well? It was clearly Heinicke's doing for the most part. Sure, some other stuff went ok but at the end of the day we won because of Heinicke.

 

Things went poorly? It was clearly everyone's fault but Heinicke and if the rest of the team was up to par with TH we would have won (regardless of how bad TH looked).

 

Rinse. Repeat. 

 

I think at this point Heinicke has shown himself to be a low level starter and/or high level backup who can help you win games when everything else is clicking exactly as it should. Pure game manager who will make a couple splash plays but who, due to his limitations, will never be a QB who can put a team on his back and get them a win with his arm.

 

I think the sooner we all just accept that the better and then we can move on towards an upgrade at the position while keeping Heinicke as a quality bacup

[mistertim]

6 hours ago, zskins said:

If it wasn't for the D giving us 6 loses to start the season we would be riding into the playoffs with TH even with the players that he had to work with currently. I wanted to see TH for all 17 games. He is not bad and he is not Arron Rodgers. But then again no one expected him to be. Just wanted to see competent QB play for this season. Taylor wasn't bad and could have been better and if Logan was healthy or McKissic or a we had a true #2 WR or a great running game. These are things a team needs for their QB to be successful. 

 

At least the coaches have a better idea of what they have for next year. 

 

Right, this is the stuff I'm talking about. Because it was our defense that kept scoring under 20 points per game? Our offense was anemic and crappy in our losses before the bye. The defense wasn't good but considering that for most of those early losses, our defense kept opposing offenses to at or under what they were averaging up to that point. Contrary to that, our offense was regularly scoring less (sometimes far less) than what the opposing teams' defenses had been giving up until that point.

 

I'm assuming this is where you'd also throw out Turner sucking (despite repeated empirical evidence that he was scheming guys open and Heinicke was missing them or couldn't get the ball there) or blaming the OL (despite the fact that our OL has been one of the more highly rated units in the NFL for much of the season.

 

It's always someone else's fault.

[NickyJ]

6 hours ago, zskins said:

 

I really hate it when someone says NEVER. Like you have a crystal ball and can see things no one can. 🙄

You will never be the first man on Mars. You will never live to be 300 years old. You will never shake Abraham Lincoln's hand. You will never walk on the surface of the sun.

 

You will never see Heinicke's arm strength increase unless you inject industrial strength steroids into his arm.

 

You get those 5 crystal ball readings on the house. Next one is $5.

Edited January 3, 2022 by NickyJ

[zCommander]

33 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Right, this is the stuff I'm talking about. Because it was our defense that kept scoring under 20 points per game? Our offense was anemic and crappy in our losses before the bye. The defense wasn't good but considering that for most of those early losses, our defense kept opposing offenses to at or under what they were averaging up to that point. Contrary to that, our offense was regularly scoring less (sometimes far less) than what the opposing teams' defenses had been giving up until that point.

 

I'm assuming this is where you'd also throw out Turner sucking (despite repeated empirical evidence that he was scheming guys open and Heinicke was missing them or couldn't get the ball there) or blaming the OL (despite the fact that our OL has been one of the more highly rated units in the NFL for much of the season.

 

It's always someone else's fault.

 

My bad guess I should have said - The whole ****ing franchise sucks because Taylor is the QB! Everything that is wrong with this team was all because Taylor was the QB. 

 

To say the D did well is putting your blinders on. The same D from last year didn't show up at all this year. But yeah it isn't the D fault at all in any of the loses. 🙄 Except for the Dallas games since our Oline was a turnstile and we were playing with 3rd and 4th strings too. 

 

Did you see how the Dallas D took us out to the wood shed? But go ahead and put those two wins on Dak. Whatever dude. 

 

 

4 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

You will never be the first man on Mars. You will never live to be 300 years old. You will never shake Abraham Lincoln's hand. You will never walk on the surface of the sun.

 

You will never see Heinicke's arm strength increase unless you inject industrial strength steroids into his arm.

 

You get those 5 crystal ball readings on the house. Next one is $5.

 

But does your crystal ball says TH can NEVER win the big one? 

 

BTW, if you are going to reply to me make sure you are responding to the actual discussion at hand.

 

Edited January 3, 2022 by zskins

[mistertim]

2 minutes ago, zskins said:

 

My bad guess I should have said - The whole ****ing franchise sucks because Taylor is the QB! Everything that is wrong this this team was all because Taylor was the QB. 

 

To say the D did well is putting your blinders on. The same D from last year didn't show up at all this year. But yeah it isn't the D fault at all in any of the loses. 🙄

 

Did you see how the Dallas D took us out to the wood shed? But go ahead and put those two wins on Dak. Whatever dude. 

 

I never said TH was the only reason we suck. But you seem absolutely insistent on blaming everything else under the sun when Heinicke and/or the offense plays poorly. I'm certainly not going to say that our defense was good overall but there were plenty of losses where they did enough but the offense **** the bed and just couldn't put points up.

 

Chargers (27.6 average, held to 20)
KC (33.7 average, held to 31)
GB (30.7 average, held to 24)
Denver (19.4 average, held to 17)
Dallas (33 average, held to 27)
Philly (27 average, held to 20)

 

In 8 of our losses we put up 20 points or less. The only way a defense can make up for that sort of abysmal offensive performance is to be dominant and pretty much never allow more than 20 points, which in this day and age is super rare.

 

But of couse that's also when you'll pivot to blaming Turner or the OL or the rest of the supporting cast, or god, or the flying spagetti monster, or whoever.

[Mooka]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

This sort of stuff is basically par for the course when it comes to a handful of TH supporters here.

 

Things went well? It was clearly Heinicke's doing for the most part. Sure, some other stuff went ok but at the end of the day we won because of Heinicke.

 

 

That's called being a QB. 

 

Most important position in sports. 

[zCommander]

35 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I never said TH was the only reason we suck. But you seem absolutely insistent on blaming everything else under the sun when Heinicke and/or the offense plays poorly. I'm certainly not going to say that our defense was good overall but there were plenty of losses where they did enough but the offense **** the bed and just couldn't put points up.

 

Chargers (27.6 average, held to 20)
KC (33.7 average, held to 31)
GB (30.7 average, held to 24)
Denver (19.4 average, held to 17)
Dallas (33 average, held to 27)
Philly (27 average, held to 20)

 

In 8 of our losses we put up 20 points or less. The only way a defense can make up for that sort of abysmal offensive performance is to be dominant and pretty much never allow more than 20 points, which in this day and age is super rare.

 

But of couse that's also when you'll pivot to blaming Turner or the OL or the rest of the supporting cast, or god, or the flying spagetti monster, or whoever.

 

You can just throw out both of the Dallas games. Taylor never had a chance on those games since he was running for his life. 

We should have won against KC and GB - last year when our D held teams to 21 points or less we won those games. 

[NickyJ]

1 hour ago, zskins said:

But does your crystal ball says TH can NEVER win the big one? 

 

BTW, if you are going to reply to me make sure you are responding to the actual discussion at hand.

The discussion at hand is whether TH can get a stronger arm and compete for a Super Bowl. I addressed that with the only possible way you can make that happen: Industrial strength steroids. I don't think the new team trainer is going to allow you to give him that, so it's absolutely fair to say it will never happen.

Edited January 3, 2022 by NickyJ

[SpacePenguin]

2 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

The discussion at hand is whether TH can get a stronger arm and compete for a Super Bowl. I addressed that with the only possible way you can make that happen: Industrial strength steroids. I don't think the new team trainer is going to allow you to give him that, so it's absolutely fair to say it will never happen.

 

Prosthetics have come a long way. Don't discount the possibility of a BaseWars style cyborg arm.

[OMacAttack]

6 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

The discussion at hand is whether TH can get a stronger arm and compete for a Super Bowl. I addressed that with the only possible way you can make that happen: Industrial strength steroids. I don't think the new team trainer is going to allow you to give him that, so it's absolutely fair to say it will never happen.

Maybe he still has the old team trainers number?

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

9 minutes ago, zskins said:

 

You can just throw out both of the Dallas games. Taylor never had a chance on those games since he was running for his life. 

We should have won against KC and GB - last year when our D held teams to 21 points or less we won those games. 

Our defense played a bunch of cupcakes last year in comparison to this season.  Even at their best they aren’t going to hold teams like KC and GB to less than 21 very often.

 

It certainly feels like you are arguing based on emotion vs. logic.

 

 

[zCommander]

22 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

The discussion at hand is whether TH can get a stronger arm and compete for a Super Bowl. I addressed that with the only possible way you can make that happen: Industrial strength steroids. I don't think the new team trainer is going to allow you to give him that, so it's absolutely fair to say it will never happen.

 

So only QB with a strong arm wins SBs then?....lol

[zCommander]

20 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Our defense played a bunch of cupcakes last year in comparison to this season.  Even at their best they aren’t going to hold teams like KC and GB to less than 21 very often.

 

It certainly feels like you are arguing based on emotion vs. logic.

 

 

 

I am basing on the talent we had this year to start with. 5 1st rounder on D line and were supposed to be top 5 like last year. Yeah that didn't happen. 

[TradeTheBeal!]

Semi-serious question…

 

At 28/29 yo, is there any kind of training program…legal or otherwise…where HineyHiney can put on another 15+ pounds of muscle?

 

Slightly improved arm strength + the confidence to run the ball without getting hurt  + his natural intangibles could win a bunch of games.  Not sustainable, but it would be a heck of a ride.  In DC or elsewhere…

Edited January 4, 2022 by TryTheBeal!

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

11 minutes ago, zskins said:

 

I am basing on the talent we had this year to start with. 5 1st rounder on D line and were supposed to be top 5 like last year. Yeah that didn't happen. 

You expect the defense to hold prolific offenses to under 21.  Something that is an anomaly for both of those teams.

 

Mistertim already shared with you that while the D was a letdown, they gave up less points than many of these teams average.  He didn’t just make that up.

 

You aren’t going to win many games in this league putzing down the field and attempting FGs.  Particularly against teams with good offense.

 

Heineke has also turned it over to the opposing offense 17 times.

 

 

[zCommander]

6 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

You expect the defense to hold prolific offenses to under 21.  Something that is an anomaly for both of those teams.

 

Mistertim already shared with you that while the D was a letdown, they gave up less points than many of these teams average.  He didn’t just make that up.

 

You aren’t going to win many games in this league putzing down the field and attempting FGs.  Particularly against teams with good offense.

 

Heineke has also turned it over to the opposing offense 17 times.

 

 

 

Yes our D was below to maybe average at best. Not above average like they were supposed to be on paper. Above average Ds shutdown even the high power offenses. This also allows the other teams to turn it over to us more and give our offense more chances on the field to score.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

17 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Semi-serious question…

 

At 28/29 yo, is there any kind of training program…legal or otherwise…where HineyHiney can put on another 15+ pounds of muscle?

 

Slightly improved arm strength + the confidence to run the ball without getting hurt  + his natural intangibles could win a bunch of games.  Not sustainable, but it would be a heck of a ride.  In DC or elsewhere…

…and 3-4 inches of height while we’re at it.

 

Sounds like the guy to talk to about that is on leave though.

[NickyJ]

31 minutes ago, zskins said:

 

So only QB with a strong arm wins SBs then?....lol

Pretty much, yeah. Otherwise, gotta have a historically good defense like the Broncos with Manning's last ride and Ravens with Dilfer. Which has only happened twice in the modern era, and the NFL of the Ravens-Dilfer Super Bowl is quickly falling behind modern times.

 

Before you say "but there's a chance", let me say, I'll be right there to high five you as we watch that Super Bowl in a sports bar on Mars.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

3 minutes ago, zskins said:

Above average Ds shutdown even the high power offenses. This also allows the other teams to turn it over to us more and give our offense more chances on the field to score.

They do?  Do you have stats to back that claim up?

 

You not only expect the defense to shutdown the best offenses but also turn them over to give our crappy offense more chances.

 

That sounds swell and all but not very realistic. 

[goskins10]

 

4 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Semi-serious question…

 

At 28/29 yo, is there any kind of training program…legal or otherwise…where HineyHiney can put on another 15+ pounds of muscle?

 

Slightly improved arm strength + the confidence to run the ball without getting hurt  + his natural intangibles could win a bunch of games.  Not sustainable, but it would be a heck of a ride.  In DC or elsewhere…

 

He already did that this off season. He added several pounds of muscle and  it did show in him not getting injured nearly as much. In fact outside the normal wear and tear of the season he suffered no major injuries. But that means he has already done what he can with his arm. 

 

Not directed at you - just using this as a launching point - I know those who still want him to be the guy think people are "harping" on arm strength just because they can. But it completely limits what the offense can do. There were opportunities Sunday even with the pressure that with a true NFL arm plays were there to be made. Many of the 50/50 balls from him are because it takes so long for the ball to get there. Now, when he can get his feet set and drive through the ball he can get some zip on the intermediate balls. But you can't expect that to be the case even half the time. And having him roll out will not fix the issue. Yes, that paly works a few times a game. But if you do it regularly, Ds will feast on it. They can confidently flood the side he is most comfortable and make his roll the other way. You think it's bad now, yikes!!  

 

Also, it's not just his arm. His poor decision making is also being put on display. And no it's not rookie mistakes at this point. He has 15 games this season alone and played games before now. Going into the season, Ok he had limited snaps so he was say like a 2nd yr player, I will buy that. But that wounded duck he threw up in the 1st Q that was nullified by a Philly penalty jsut can never happen. He also took several sacks he should not have. Not defending the Oline. They were the worst I have seen them all year. In fairness Taylor could have made no mistakes and still probably lost. But when you put his last 5 gms together (scoring 17 pts is not going to win you many ball games), he is jsut not good enough - period. 

 

The fact is he is a nice back-up and that's it. Nothing wrong with that BTW. There are only a handful of people in the world that can be a competent back-up in the NFL. The problem is you cannot win enough games on a consistent enough basis and be competitive enough with a back-up to win championships. At this point it is painfully clear he cannot develop into a true starter. They have to find a long term potential this offseason. That player is not currently on the roster. 

 

 

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, zskins said:

 

You can just throw out both of the Dallas games. Taylor never had a chance on those games since he was running for his life. 

We should have won against KC and GB - last year when our D held teams to 21 points or less we won those games. 

 

Ok, so we get to just throw out games at random when we feel like it? Should we throw out the Atlanta game as well because, while Heinicke had 3 TDs, he also had at least 3 dropped interceptions and was bailed out multiple times by Terry? Or do we only throw out the bad games?

 

30 minutes ago, zskins said:

 

I am basing on the talent we had this year to start with. 5 1st rounder on D line and were supposed to be top 5 like last year. Yeah that didn't happen. 

 

I think most of us realize by now that last season's apparently dominant defense (or more precisely the latter half of last season's defense) was mostly smoke and mirrors and also a product of playing a far softer schedule than this season.

 

Either way, none of that changes the fact that our defense, while certainly not a top unit, did hold multiple high powered offenses to less than their average points scored all while our offense pretty consistently scored below what those teams' defenses had allowed thus far.

 

The offense stunk and while we seemed ok at dinking and dunking and puttup up yards between the 20s, we rarely hit big plays and once in the red zone settle way too often for FGs. Now, not all of that is on Heinicke obviously, but IMO his limitations as a passer along with not having great red zone weapons greatly reduced our offense's effectiveness.

 

19 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Semi-serious question…

 

At 28/29 yo, is there any kind of training program…legal or otherwise…where HineyHiney can put on another 15+ pounds of muscle?

 

Slightly improved arm strength + the confidence to run the ball without getting hurt  + his natural intangibles could win a bunch of games.  Not sustainable, but it would be a heck of a ride.  In DC or elsewhere…

 

I'm sure he could put on muscle, but putting on muscle doesn't necessarily translate into greater arm strength. It seems that most guys with big arms just have the genetics for it. A lot of it comes down to natural torque a QB can deliver in a short amount of time and I really think that's just way a guy is put together.

 

Yes, you can maximize your genetic potential, but you aren't going to suddenly have a rocket launcher...otherwise if it were that easy to jack up arm strength evey NFL QB would have a cannon. It's sort of like a vertical leap. You can work on technique and improve your leap by a couple of inches maybe, but a guy with a 30 inch vertical is never going to be a guy with a 40 inch vertical.

 

I can't really think of any NFL QB who was known to have a mediocre or weak arm in college and who suddenly developed a cannon. Some say Brady or Brees, but neither of those guys had weak arms. Neither has a howitzer, but they could both put it anywhere on the field at pretty much any time. 

[skins island connection]

 I cannot wait to get another QB.

I hope they can get a QB who can throw a football through a car door.  Then there will be something about him that he can't do, i.e.; Cousins throwing a fade or choking in big games, or Griffin who couldn't or didn't know how to slide, or Campbell who had a strong arm but worthless in controlling where the ball went, or Grossman who threw it deep regardless, just because he wanted to.  Then i'll sit back and watch the feeding frenzy.

 

There are some who like TH and some who hate him and nothing said, no proof will change their minds either way. 

Between Covid and injuries this team was torn apart, not to mention playing short week games, playing opponents coming off a bye week, it took its toll on the team, and fans.

 

It would have nice to see what would have happened had Gibson learned how to hang onto the football, if Logan Thomas had not gotten injured as well as McKissic and the entire o-line. 

But, reality is, no one will be satisfied until another QB is brought in. They may pick one in the draft, and just because he's a college QB that automatically means he will be better and be the answer. Not. 

How many QBs across the league have we all seen who comes out like lightning his first year, then the sophomore slump hits and the kid couldn't hit the side of a barn from 10 feet away. Too many to list.

Some are hoping Carr will come here, at what cost who knows, or Wilson, who is nearing the end of his career { he is 34 right now } and could be 1 good hit away from breaking. 

Rodgers?  lol. Dream on. Brady? Ditto. 

This team has far too many holes to fill and some coaching assistants who are somehow propped up as being good at their jobs { another lol }, but a QB will fix everything around here? Nah, it will take alot more than a QB, and Snyder may as well buy a FEW Ferris Wheels because a Carousel just will not hold all of the QBs this team will go through before realizing there are other important aspects of this team that also need help in. 

 

SIC