Heinicke Hive: The LEGEND of Taylor Heinicke Thread

[mistertim]

1 minute ago, Catatonic said:

I agree, but I’d rather go into next season with TH as the cemented starter.  Give him a full year and if it doesn’t work out, then do what you’ve got to do.  It’s not like Football Team has a great track record of finding the next elite QB. 

 

Yeah, I mean...at that point we're basically in agreement but for some details.

 

I think this depends on what the coaching staff truly thinks Heinicke's ceiling is after this season and whether or not they really like some of the QBs coming out in the 22 draft. Also...it might not be 100% technically accurate, but Heinicke is getting a full year as starter now. He came in before the second half of the first game and has been starter since.

 

It's true that we don't have a good track record, but we also shouldn't let that stop us from trying. Again, it all depends on how much the staff likes some QBs who are coming out. But we might be in another tricky situation. It looks like we're basically playing well enough to play ourselves out of a top draft spot while not being good enough to go far into the playoffs. So we'd probably have to really love a QB to move up for him.

 

Rivera has already said he's hesitant to "mortage the future" for a QB. However we also know that he's willing to give up picks if they really like a guy, as they offered a 1st plus more for Stafford. I think to move way up for a QB they'd have to really love him. Because going from 19 or so to top 10 (or higher) will probably cost two 1sts or more.

[KDawg]

Just now, goskins10 said:

 

 

Sorry I used a bad word. So maybe I should have said a good game? Arguing semantics is not typically your style. My point was he made some good plays and some not good plays. It's too bad you shut it down over one part of one statement. You might have found I was much more aligned with you than not. 

 

 

 

Went back and read it. And yes, we are closer than I think. But who even said he had a good game? People are saying he didn't have a BAD game and that's very different. TO me that's not a semantics argument. It's a word that skews the entire scope of the conversation. Anyone saying he played lights out is high on helium. He had big errors and sailed too many passes.

 

Anyone that says he had a bad game were caught up in the hysteria of this whole conversation.

 

The truth lies in the middle. He was okay. Not good. Not bad. Okay. But it was enough this week. And has been for the last four weeks. 

[Darrell Green Fan]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

Kirk is a different animal who didn't have the same respect of the locker room or fanbase. Kirk lacks the charisma, but has the physical tools.

So because he is liked and Kirk was not (allegedly) Taylor gets a pass for that horrible decision on the dropped interception?  I don't see it that way at all, we can't just pretend that throw didn't happen.  

[Catatonic]

2 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Yeah, I mean...at that point we're basically in agreement but for some details.

 

I think this depends on what the coaching staff truly thinks Heinicke's ceiling is after this season and whether or not they really like some of the QBs coming out in the 22 draft. Also...it might not be 100% technically accurate, but Heinicke is getting a full year as starter now. He came in before the second half of the first game and has been starter since.

 

It's true that we don't have a good track record, but we also shouldn't let that stop us from trying. Again, it all depends on how much the staff likes some QBs who are coming out. But we might be in another tricky situation. It looks like we're basically playing well enough to play ourselves out of a top draft spot while not being good enough to go far into the playoffs. So we'd probably have to really love a QB to move up for him.

 

Rivera has already said he's hesitant to "mortage the future" for a QB. However we also know that he's willing to give up picks if they really like a guy, as they offered a 1st plus more for Stafford. I think to move way up for a QB they'd have to really love him. Because going from 19 or so to top 10 (or higher) will probably cost two 1sts or more.

Agree, with the only edit I would make is that while is getting technically a full year as starter, I’d argue that doesn’t take the place of beginning spring camp as the starter.

[KDawg]

Just now, Darrell Green Fan said:

So because he is liked and Kirk was not (allegedly) Taylor gets a pass for that horrible decision on the dropped interception?  I don't see it that way at all, we can't just pretend that throw didn't happen.  

Nope. You're thinking too shallow. Has nothing to do with liked or not. It's believed in.

 

And yes. It matters. I see it every day in locker rooms. Physical talent is a major asset, but if it's not coupled with a belief that you will bring the team to a point that it can win a game routinely then it doesn't mean a thing in moments of adversity. I can't quantify that with stats. It's an experiential thing that you'll have to either take me at my word for or dismiss.

[OMacAttack]

So, my thoughts on the situation are these.  Play out the 5 divisional games, play our hearts out in the playoffs and then figure out the QB things.

 

Couple thing going forward is I believe Heineke has earned the starting spot the question is do we resign Fitz? I doubt it, he may also retire.  I believe Allen is capable for our veteran backup if injuries happen and then you draft a QB to learn Turners system which from all accounts isn't an easy one to learn.

 

I wouldn't overspend aka trade resources in the draft but if one we like falls to us pull the trigger.

 

Happy to roll with Heineke the man plays hard and gets the team behind him.  

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Nope. You're thinking too shallow. Has nothing to do with liked or not. It's believed in.

 

And yes. It matters. I see it every day in locker rooms. Physical talent is a major asset, but if it's not coupled with a belief that you will bring the team to a point that it can win a game routinely then it doesn't mean a thing in moments of adversity. I can't quantify that with stats. It's an experiential thing that you'll have to either take me at my word for or dismiss.

 

No I understand what you are saying, and belief is critical in the locker room. That does not mean TH gets a pass for essentially throwing the game away with a horrible decision only to be  bailed out by the drop.  A pass Kirk never got from the fans for doing the exact same thing.  

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

No I understand what you are saying, and belief is critical in the locker room. That does not mean TH gets a pass for essentially throwing the game away with a horrible decision only to be  bailed out by the drop.  A pass Kirk never got from the fans for doing the exact same thing.  

 

Who gave him a pass? It was a really bad throw and decision. 

 

Heinicke is overlooked because the team won. Had they lost he'd be getting raked over the coals despite the fact he made a bunch of major beneficial plays as well.

 

To the victor go the spoils.

 

Typically in moments like that when he was here Cousins would do that and it would suck the soul out of the team. It doesn't with Heinicke at the helm. 

[goskins10]

3 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Went back and read it. And yes, we are closer than I think. But who even said he had a good game? People are saying he didn't have a BAD game and that's very different. TO me that's not a semantics argument. It's a word that skews the entire scope of the conversation. Anyone saying he played lights out is high on helium. He had big errors and sailed too many passes.

 

Anyone that says he had a bad game were caught up in the hysteria of this whole conversation.

 

The truth lies in the middle. He was okay. Not good. Not bad. Okay. But it was enough this week. And has been for the last four weeks. 

 

That was my only point. So maybe I should have left the first sentence out. There are people saying he had a good/great game but in fairness not much on this board. I have been all over the place looking at reactions and recaps of the game by fans/non/fans and I sometimes mix the two. More importantly, I was not at all accusing you of making that statement.

 

As I said, for me he took a step back but still managed a win. For this team in general, not just Taylor, that is new and is something to build on. Good teams who do not paly their best game  find a way to win. That's what yesterday was for me. 

 

Fun to have meaningful games in Dec. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

5 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Actually, by what I've heard/seen - yes.

I don't really recall that, but wasn't really looking out for it either, so it's possible.  All I seem to recall was Terry being visibly frustrated at times, but no real words of encouragement or despair from the rest of the locker room.

 

I'm certain that if we take 4 of the next 5 on the way to the playoffs, no matter how he performs - the locker room will be leading the campaign for Heineke '22.  It's easy for us buy into that and run with it, but it will certainly put Ron and the gang in a tough spot.  Because you know they wish to have Heinke+, meaning a guy like him that can push it downfield as well.  However, they don't grow on trees and they run the risk of - bypassing attempting to upgrade the position for another season and Heineke comes back to earth or attempting to upgrade the position and the fanbase having zero patience for the new guy with Taylor on the bench.  

[goskins10]

8 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I don't really recall that, but wasn't really looking out for it either, so it's possible.  All I seem to recall was Terry being visibly frustrated at times, but no real words of encouragement or despair from the rest of the locker room.

 

I'm certain that if we take 4 of the next 5 on the way to the playoffs, no matter how he performs - the locker room will be leading the campaign for Heineke '22.  It's easy for us buy into that and run with it, but it will certainly put Ron and the gang in a tough spot.  Because you know they wish to have Heinke+, meaning a guy like him that can push it downfield as well.  However, they don't grow on trees and they run the risk of - bypassing attempting to upgrade the position for another season and Heineke comes back to earth or attempting to upgrade the position and the fanbase having zero patience for the new guy with Taylor on the bench.  

 

 

Actually i think it buys him time. In fact right now, how Taylor is playing gives them some leeway on how they address QB this offseason, Otherwise they would have been is desperation mode. We will see though. 

 

I hope he forces the decision. Best case for us is he continues to get better and proves he can b the guy. 

[ILikeBilly]

If the run continues, I sense a movie in the works.  It could be "Invincible #4" or maybe "The Replacements 2: Covid QB"

[zCommander]

2 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

That's not it at all. I was actually one of the few who argued that we shouldn't bench him because he makes the offense run.

 

I just think our ceiling to win and sustain success over the long term is extremely limited with Heinicke.

 

He's not a bad QB. I'd even put him into mid tier starter right now. But you don't sustain success over 3, 5, 7+ years with a mid tier starter.

 

I want us to be a perennial contender. You need an upper echelon starter for that. I just don't think Heinicke is that guy.

 

But I guess I have loftier standards than just trying to squeeze out a 9 win season every few years.

 

The book hasn't even been written on Taylor yet. How many QBs come out of the draft that has everything Taylor has but with a stronger arm? Hardly any. If you say someone like Mahomes then I will let you know that Taylor is right below him in QBR and above Ben. Pretty nice to be in the company of those two. We all have standards. I want to be a billionaire but I will settle for a millionaire instead. I can still live a comfortable life either way.

 

I guess I am not into the whole upper echelon or perennial. I just want a QB who is effective and we win. I get the whole consistency and being in the playoffs year in and year out but if you never get to the SB and win what is so good about having a perennial QB except for some bragging rights that we have won the division and we have been to playoffs more than once. 

 

10 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

we can't just pretend that throw didn't happen.  

 

The throw did happen. Too bad that DB didn't jump high enough for that high throw. Same high throw people were complaining about TH throwing in the game. It paid off positively this time. I will take it. 

 

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

I am all for rolling with TH next year and still looking for an upgrade.    Hard pass on Rodgers/Wilson or trading huge draft capital to force a QB pick in a weak QB class.  

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

11 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

Actually i think it buys him time. In fact right now, how Taylor is playing gives them some leeway on how they address QB this offseason, Otherwise they would have been is desperation mode. We will see though. 

I agree there, the other side of that though is - what if Taylor can't duplicate or build off this season next year?  We've seen it too often, where a guy emerges one season only to revert back to some semblance of the player that was overlooked to begin with.  Coordinators get a full offseason to diagnose tape on said player and develop schemes that force them into what they don't do well and shut down what they do well.  No matter what Case Taylor makes for himself this season, and no matter how many fans or guys in the locker room say he should be the guy, if he comes back to earth - they'll be blaming Ron for us still not having a franchise QB.

[goskins10]

I agree there were a few lame ducks out there by Taylor that should have been caught. But let's be fair, Kam Curl had 6 pts in his hands and dropped it also. There is a reason they are DBs not WRs. How much does that change the game that early to go up 14. 

[Tress Is The Way]

2 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

I am all for rolling with TH next year and still looking for an upgrade.    Hard pass on Rodgers/Wilson or trading huge draft capital to force a QB pick in a weak QB class.  

This. The 2022 QB class is quite pathetic. I'd rather snag an LT, CB, or LB if we are picking in the 19~ range and hold onto draft capital.

 

I just have zero faith in any of the would be round 1 QBs that are coming out.. Kenny Pinkett? Pass. Carson Strong? Pass. Sam Howell? Pass. Matt Corral MAYBE but he isn't getting passed the Texans.

[goskins10]

1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I agree there, the other side of that though is - what if Taylor can't duplicate or build off this season next year?  We've seen it too often, where a guy emerges one season only to revert back to some semblance of the player that was overlooked to begin with.  Coordinators get a full offseason to diagnose tape on said player and develop schemes that force them into what they don't do well and shut down what they do well.  No matter what Case Taylor makes for himself this season, and no matter how many fans or guys in the locker room say he should be the guy, if he comes back to earth - they'll be blaming Ron for us still not having a franchise QB.

 

 

And I agreed with this. It's one thing to do it once. But to really be the guy you have to do it multiple seasons. The nice thing abotu Taylor is it's clear he self scouts and works diligently on his opportunities to get better. We should see a lot the rest of the season. Most Ds should stuff the box, play a lot of single high safety and dare him to throw deep. I think we have the WR horse. Carter has emerged and finally Taylor and Humphries are getting some rhythm. He is a nice route running and has great hands. The next 5 should be really interesting.

 

One thing everyone should be able to agree on is regardless of outcome Taylor is fun to watch 🙂  Never know what kind of Houdini trick he will pull. LOL  

[Califan007 The Constipated]

57 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

The truth lies in the middle. He was okay. Not good. Not bad. Okay. But it was enough this week. And has been for the last four weeks. 

 

 

*Ahem*...

 

On 12/3/2021 at 10:02 AM, Califan007 said:

 

I also said he wasn't #32 lol...he's not the best but he's not the worst. I think that's pretty accurate if I do say so myself. (blows on fingernails)

[TheBlueIndian]

He almost pooped the bed on that last drive that is undeniable but he made up for it and got the team in a position to win AGAIN. 

 

Its curious that some folks think he gets a pass from the fanbase, that maybe KC didn't.

 

I wonder who those folks would rather  have in the game down a score with 2 minutes to play ?  

[mistertim]

2 minutes ago, TheBlueIndian said:

He almost pooped the bed on that last drive that is undeniable but he made up for it and got the team in a position to win AGAIN. 

 

Its curious that some folks think he gets a pass from the fanbase, that maybe KC didn't.

 

I wonder who those folks would rather  have in the game down a score with 2 minutes to play ?  

 

I'd absolutely take Heinicke in that situation. I was definitely harder on Kirk than I am on TH, because TH generally makes plays when it counts, and Kirk generally shat the bed when it counted. That was my biggest issue with Cousins and why I didn't think he was worth the money he wanted.

[Thinking Skins]

35 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I agree there, the other side of that though is - what if Taylor can't duplicate or build off this season next year?  We've seen it too often, where a guy emerges one season only to revert back to some semblance of the player that was overlooked to begin with.  Coordinators get a full offseason to diagnose tape on said player and develop schemes that force them into what they don't do well and shut down what they do well.  No matter what Case Taylor makes for himself this season, and no matter how many fans or guys in the locker room say he should be the guy, if he comes back to earth - they'll be blaming Ron for us still not having a franchise QB.

I think the key part of this is whether Turner gets a HC position or not. Maybe our QB Coach can continue to develop him (if he doesn't leave as well) but everything I'm seeing now is repeatable next year. Its much like a Tannehill type success story behind a big running game, or even a Texans behind Schaub and Foster or Seahawks behind Wilson and Lynch, there are other names Baltimore, SF, the Rams a few years ago. I think its a proven formula that works. What generally happens is that teams try to think that "we want to open the offense up more" and they get rid of the Keenum for a Cousins and all of a sudden they see that its not just like swap in and swap out because there's a lot more that goes into it. 

[goskins10]

This was awesome to see! And sorry, not seen our oline get this fired up protecting thier QB in an awful lot of years. I remember Jeff George getting drilled and the oline looked back and basically it was, well I hate that for you... 🙂  They protected Cousins some but not with this kind of ferocity. Flowers is ready to throw down!  Man is he enjoying himself here. 

 

 

 

[El Mexican]

3 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

This was awesome to see! And sorry, not seen our oline get this fired up protecting thier QB in an awful lot of years. I remember Jeff George getting drilled and the oline looked back and basically it was, well I hate that for you... 🙂  They protected Cousins some but not with this kind of ferocity. Flowers is ready to throw down!  Man is he enjoying himself here. 

 

 

 

 

Yep, I noticed the same thing. His anger was completely justified.

 

The guys are aware that TH is doing everything he possibly can to win games. That's contagious. 

[Burgold]

22 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I think the key part of this is whether Turner gets a HC position or not.

I can't see Turner getting offered a HC position. The offense has not been lighting it up and he's never been considered a dynamic, inventive prospect. I've been wrong before, but it'd really surprise me if he even received a call for an interview.