The Philosophy Thread: HC First, GM/FO First, or does it matter?

[LD0506]

Rivera is not going to being walking around playing "Whose is bigger?" with his ego. Good leaders do their homework, make the right hire and then let them do their job. If they don't, you hired the wrong guy and that's on you. I see him have a lot of the say on a GM but then letting that guy do his job so that Ron can do his.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

From Standig

 

 

[TSO]

 

Great read and another example of how vital organizational structure/alignment is. 
 

But I found this part particularly interesting (specifically the bolded):

 

Quote

Lynch itched for more than long calls. He wanted to get back in the game, so when Shanahan was hired, ambition met opportunity. Shanahan didn't know many of the other top candidates well, but he trusted Lynch and trusted his father's lofty recommendation. Both men had deep ties to Walsh's philosophy. Lynch had mostly played for Walsh or one of his disciples since he entered college, and Kyle had learned from his father, who studied how to run a team during his time as a 49ers assistant in the early '90s. It was written into their contracts that any decision was subject to approval by the other one. "We didn't know each other," Lynch says, "but right when we started working together, our personalities kind of meshed."

[Skinsinparadise]

 

During an interview with the Redskins Talk podcast in Miami at Super Bowl LIV, NBC Sports' Peter King reflected on the conclusion of Allen's time in charge of Washington.

"I'm not saying I was surprised Daniel Snyder got rid of one of his best friends in the world in Bruce Allen, but it was long overdue," the respected football mind told JP Finlay and Brian Mitchell.

"It was ridiculous that he continued to hold that job," King added. "Just ridiculous."

As King mentioned, Allen and Snyder were close. Very close. That's one of the main reasons Allen stayed on as team president, even as the Burgundy and Gold continued to lose both games and supporters in the stands.

According to King, though (and anyone possessing a decent amount of logic), a few seasons of failure in the NFL means turnover in the front office should be coming. Yet that wasn't the case with the Redskins, as Allen continued in his role even as evidence mounted that a change was needed.

"I think any person in football understands that if you go through three or four very lean years, not only are you in danger of losing your job, you probably should lose your job," King said. "But in Washington, it was 10 years. And you say, 'Why in the world? Is there an adult in the room here?' And there wasn't."

To Snyder's credit, he did finally dismiss Allen and seems to have, for now at least, completely turned the Redskins over to Ron Rivera since that decision. Rivera has totally changed the organization's power structure already despite being head coach for less than a month, and King is optimistic of where things are going.

"I like Ron Rivera, I think he's a good coach, I think he commands the room well," King told Redskins Talk.

Command in the room, the building and over the Redskins as a whole has been missing for quite some time now. With Allen out and Rivera in, perhaps that key quality will finally return, along with consistency and winning.'

 

 

 

[Warhead36]

Both the teams in the Super Bowl right now have a more coach-GM partnership than any sort of employee-boss type deal. I think that's the best way to do it. Gibbs and Beathard were similar.

[Skinsinparadise]

https://www.espn.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/39534/redskins-mirrored-the-49ers-decline-can-they-follow-their-rise

 

Late in a Week 11 loss to the New York Jets, Redskins fans -- the few who remained -- started to chant in the direction of owner Snyder's luxury box, "Sell the team! Sell the team!" It was loud enough for Snyder to hear, and a team source said at the time, to bother him.

Team president Bruce Allen was a target as well. In October, a fan spent $1,600 to hire a plane pulling a banner that read, "Help Skins Fans Fire Bruce Allen!" before a Redskins game in Miami.

It happened in San Francisco, too. In 2015, a 49ers fan used a GoFundMe campaign to raise money so he could fly a banner around Levi's Stadium before a game. The banner, referring to 49ers CEO Jed York, read: "Jed & 49ers Should Mutually Part Ways." Following the 2014 season, the 49ers announced they had "mutually agreed to part ways" with coach Jim Harbaugh.

The Redskins' culture has been a consistent storyline during Snyder's tenure. Of the 49ers, Sports Illustrated's Michael Rosenberg wrote in 2014: "York has created a culture that encourages selfishness, weakness and back-stabbing."

Finally, York once compared new coach Jim Tomsula to Steve Kerr, who has won three NBA championships as coach of the Golden State Warriors. Snyder's right-hand man in 2008, Vinny Cerrato, once compared new coach Jim Zorn to Redskins Hall of Fame coach Joe Gibbs. Tomsula went 5-11 in one year; Zorn was a combined 12-20 in two. Oops.

Extreme makeover

San Francisco went a combined 7-25 in 2015 and '16 under two coaches -- Tomsula and Chip Kelly. The 49ers were a disaster, but they did what many fans wanted: They fired general manager Trent Baalke, who was considered almost untouchable for a while in San Francisco. Just like Allen in Washington.

In Snyder's biggest move this offseason, he fired Allen, his confidant of 10 years. They had already fired coach Jay Gruden in October during his sixth season. Snyder then opted for a different approach, hiring Ron Rivera and making him the most powerful coach in his tenure.

[Skinsinparadise]

I've debated this point with some others who refused to believe that we could have gotten a haul for Kirk.  I heard Mike Jones being interviewed last week on the same subject.  He said Kyle told him directly he wanted to deal for Kirk but the Redskins FO wouldn't deal with SF because of him.  So ultimately they decided they'd get Kirk in FA anyway so they stopped trying. 

 

As for Trent, we got Dorsey basically implying in an interview that the Redskins could have gotten something big (probably a first rounder) if they dealt with them earlier last season.  And who knows about the Texans?  

 

But yes it's plausible that they gave up the possibility of two top 10 draft picks for players and they gave up that opportunity for what?  Revenge.  Emotion.  Hate.  

 

So when we hear Dan just wants to win.  Sorry, I think that's BS.   Yeah I am sure he'd like to win.  But winning hasn't been the operative way they've functioned.  This among other things I hope Rivera puts a stop to. 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Staff changes will have the biggest impact on: Culture. The Redskins had a poor culture, one that was not conducive to winning. It wasn't about the players last season as much as it was the organization. In the past, they did have an issue with players showing up late for meetings and sometimes practices. Rivera had the pingpong table removed from the locker room, a symbolic gesture. But it hammers home a point: He wants things to be earned and knows that now is the time to lay the foundation for what he wants. A number of players were tired of the organization. With a new power setup, it should close, for now, the division between the front office and the coaching staff. That played a crucial role in inconsistent roster-building and also in stories being leaked to the media. The culture needed changing long ago. It's about time Snyder realized it.

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28635113/nfc-east-makeover-coaches-reshape-division-2020

[Voice_of_Reason]

But the culture was damn good.  Bruce said so.  Because Doug worked a lot.

 

Sigh. How it took Dan 10 years to realize his drinking buddy was unqualified for the job is beyond me.

[Skinsinparadise]

7 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

But the culture was damn good.  Bruce said so.  Because Doug worked a lot.

 

Sigh. How it took Dan 10 years to realize his drinking buddy was unqualified for the job is beyond me.

 

I think Dan's drinking buddy was too good a friend and the two had too much in common with how they saw things that it was tough for Dan to let him go. 

 

The Kirk issues and Trent ones take the cake for me under Bruce.  Let's forget even the hole he dug on both counts.  The idea that he had a lifeline to bail himself out yet, he (Dan, too) didn't take the lifeline to bail themselves out basically out of spite is unbelievable.

 

There are some to this day that swear that SF wasn't interested in Kirk.  They just don't want to believe it.  And if they were they were just willing to give up a ham sandwich for him.  The rumors back then where that wasn't so.  But how about Mike Jones getting it directly from Kyle's mouth that they were willing to give up the 2nd pick in the draft but the Redskins were unwilling to talk to them.  And then, Dorsey more or less implying that the Redskins were ridiculous with Trent because there was a time they were willing to deal their first (end up a top 10 pick so eventually that was off the table).  Also wild.  Granted the Dorsey comments were more vague than what Jones said he got directly from Kyle Shanny.

 

Can we imagine the Patriots turning down the #2 pick in the draft and another top 10 pick in the draft out of spite?

 

From what some others said is that Dan can be a vindictive and a high strung dude in his own right.  Part of the reason why I desperately wanted Bruce out is because the dude was a natural vindictive dude so he and Dan brought out the worst in each other and he fed Dan's worst instincts because he shared them.  No wonder those two were inseparable. 

 

But yeah Dan IMO should share some responsibility publicly in the culture issues.   He wasn't so innocent bystander to it.  Either he was helping feed it or was absolutely oblivious to it all.  Either way he doesn't look guy.  Hopefully Rivera puts an end to all of that crap. 

 

 

[LD0506]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

But yeah Dan IMO should share some responsibility publicly in the culture issues.   He wasn't so innocent bystander to it.  Either he was helping feed it or was absolutely oblivious to it all.  Either way he doesn't look guy.  Hopefully Rivera puts an end to all of that crap. 

 

And THAT is the crux of it, the one guy that Ron needs to "buy in" more than anyone is TheDan. He's gonna need all the help and hope he can muster to help Snyder learn how to be an owner.

[Voice_of_Reason]

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

But yeah Dan IMO should share some responsibility publicly in the culture issues.   He wasn't so innocent bystander to it.  Either he was helping feed it or was absolutely oblivious to it all.  Either way he doesn't look guy.  

 

 

(If anybody isn't familiar with the Binge Mode podcast or Malory Rubin (above) and her cohost Jason Concepcion, you are missing out on one of the finer things in life.  They are hysterical. They did a full episode by episode breakdown of Game of Thrones, Harry Potter (books and movies, and Star Wars.  And "tough look for my guy" is one of their many catch phrases. For example, after Anakin/Darth Vader killer the younglings, that was a "tough look for my guy."  

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

(If anybody isn't familiar with the Binge Mode podcast or Malory Rubin (above) and her cohost Jason Concepcion, you are missing out on one of the finer things in life.  They are hysterical. They did a full episode by episode breakdown of Game of Thrones, Harry Potter (books and movies, and Star Wars.  And "tough look for my guy" is one of their many catch phrases. For example, after Anakin/Darth Vader killer the younglings, that was a "tough look for my guy."  

 

I am a GOTR person and I like Star Wars, haven't watched any of the Potter movies.  But I'll check it out. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I am a GOTR person and I like Star Wars, haven't watched any of the Potter movies.  But I'll check it out. 

Warning: Binge Mode contains adult content.  (something they say at the beginning of every episode.)

 

The GoT pods were spectacular.  They started them with the lead up to season 7, where they watched every episode through season 6 and recapped.  Then they did weekly watches of the episodes as they came out.  The two of them are hysterical, horny as hell, (Mal openly states her desire to have relations with just about every male member of the cast), and for my money the most informative hosts you're going to find.  The research they do (and have done for them) is just amazing. 

 

For Star Wars, they did episodes on all 9 main films and also Solo and Rogue One, several mailbag eps, and character studies on Han and Vader.  They also did a recap of each Mandalorian episode.

 

Don't watch the HP movies until after you've read the books. Next point, read the books.  They really are outstanding, and you can get through them pretty quickly.  The movies, in comparison to the books, just suck stale dead yak ass with the exception of Alan Rickman's performance as Professor Snape.  Which is honestly Oscar worthy it was so good, even though they destroyed the character with the script.  

[Renegade7]

I've changed my mind.

 

I was hardcore GM-first, but the more I think about, it doesnt matter what players you pick if the coach cant develop them properly or get the most out of them.

 

A great coach can better cover a bad GM then a great GM cover a bad coach. Gibbs proved that when he came back. Hes literally the only coach to win a playoff game for this franchise this century.

[veteranskinsfan]

I did not know whether to start a new thread or put this note in this thread.  This morning on Kevin Sheehan show he talked about multiple media reports

that show our owner is again making sure he is involved with letting the new Head Coach know what he thinks of current and future players.   Keim is

reporting that Snyder wants Chase Young on the team this year.  Another reporter says Kerrigan has been assured by Snyder that he will remain on the team this year.

So Sheehan says he does not want the owner interfering and hopes the Head Coach is making Snyder think he values his input while still making the key decisions himself.

It has not been long since the Head Coach arrived and owner meddling issues are on the media airwaves again.

[88Comrade2000]

14 minutes ago, veteranskinsfan said:

I did not know whether to start a new thread or put this note in this thread.  This morning on Kevin Sheehan show he talked about multiple media reports

that show our owner is again making sure he is involved with letting the new Head Coach know what he thinks of current and future players.   Keim is

reporting that Snyder wants Chase Young on the team this year.  Another reporter says Kerrigan has been assured by Snyder that he will remain on the team this year.

 

Snyder can say who he would like but Smith/Rivera will decide who stays & who we get.

 

This is Snyder’s last shot. If he interferes and this team suffers for it; then he’s done. He we lose whatever remaining fans they are.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

^^ Personally, the only thing I give a rat's ass about is if Snyder overrides decisions or inserts himself in game-planning. The rest is yawn-inducing and irrelevant.

[KDawg]

22 minutes ago, veteranskinsfan said:

I did not know whether to start a new thread or put this note in this thread.  This morning on Kevin Sheehan show he talked about multiple media reports

that show our owner is again making sure he is involved with letting the new Head Coach know what he thinks of current and future players.   Keim is

reporting that Snyder wants Chase Young on the team this year.  Another reporter says Kerrigan has been assured by Snyder that he will remain on the team this year.

So Sheehan says he does not want the owner interfering and hopes the Head Coach is making Snyder think he values his input while still making the key decisions himself.

It has not been long since the Head Coach arrived and owner meddling issues are on the media airwaves again.

 

8 minutes ago, Rdskns2000 said:

Snyder can say who he would like but Smith/Rivera will decide who stays & who we get.

 

This is Snyder’s last shot. If he interferes and this team suffers for it; then he’s done. He we lose whatever remaining fans they are.

 

7 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

^^ Personally, the only thing I give a rat's ass about is if Snyder overrides decisions or inserts himself in game-planning. The rest is yawn-inducing and irrelevant.

 

If I owned a professional sports team, I would talk to the people I hire all the time about guys I liked. Let them know that I like them, why I like them, get their thoughts on it and then leave the ball in their court.

 

Anyone who thinks an owner would ever be totally hands off is definitely fooling themselves, unless that owner is totally uninterested. 

 

There's also the possibility that Snyder talked to Rivera and got Rivera's plans on Kerrigan before he spoke to Kerrigan. 

 

But why would a radio personality point that out when outrage gets more listens? 

[Skinsinparadise]

Finlay has been hinting that they will radically change their public approach so they operate like most other teams.  Good.  Bruce-Dan treating their operation like its the Kremilin hasn't really worked for them -- its added to the public suspicion about them if anything. 

 

 

 

[Fat Stupid Loser]

On ‎2‎/‎20‎/‎2020 at 9:44 AM, KDawg said:

 

 

 

If I owned a professional sports team, I would talk to the people I hire all the time about guys I liked. Let them know that I like them, why I like them, get their thoughts on it and then leave the ball in their court.

 

Anyone who thinks an owner would ever be totally hands off is definitely fooling themselves, unless that owner is totally uninterested. 

 

There's also the possibility that Snyder talked to Rivera and got Rivera's plans on Kerrigan before he spoke to Kerrigan. 

 

But why would a radio personality point that out when outrage gets more listens? 

I don't disagree at all. Very logical and reasonable. But our owner isn't and when have these rumors that come out about Dan and his meddling, not been true? Ever?

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, Fat Stupid Loser said:

I don't disagree at all. Very logical and reasonable. But our owner isn't and when have these rumors that come out about Dan and his meddling, not been true? Ever?

 

One of those things where I think you have to understand he has meddled in the past, but look at the situation with guarded optimism. 

[Fat Stupid Loser]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

One of those things where I think you have to understand he has meddled in the past, but look at the situation with guarded optimism. 

You're a better man than me. I'm so jaded at this point.  But I can say this. I don't hate my team anymore. Don't have to cheer for them to lose 100-0 anymore. That's a good thing.

[Bobby Peppers]

So why don't we just recap the best teams in the NFL last year and their respective structure:

 

Chiefs - HC

49ers - HC

Seahawks - HC

Packers - GM - New first time HC

Titans - Not sure. Vrabel seems to run the show- HC

Patriots - HC

Texans - Pretty sure O'Brien runs the show - HC

Cowboys - GM 

Saints - HC

 

[Riggo'sRangers]

11 minutes ago, Bobby Peppers said:

So why don't we just recap the best teams in the NFL last year and their respective structure:

 

Chiefs - HC

49ers - HC

Seahawks - HC

Packers - GM - New first time HC

Titans - Not sure. Vrabel seems to run the show- HC

Patriots - HC

Texans - Pretty sure O'Brien runs the show - HC

Cowboys - GM  

Saints - HC

 

Cowboys???  They didn't make the playoffs or win the NFC East last year.  Absolutely NOT one of the best NFL teams last year.