The Philosophy Thread: HC First, GM/FO First, or does it matter?

[Skinsinparadise]

My take is there is an interesting aspect of Kyle usurping the old Doug title based on what some have said they heard about the FO this year.

 

A.  Doug had the title of being in charge of personnel but that's mostly what it was a title.  He wasn't a lead on personnel on either the pro or college side.  He was mostly a facilitator in the building and brought some personal cohesion to a fractured building but he wasn't much of an evaluator. 

 

B.  Kyle I bet becomes the real deal in terms of being the defacto personnel guy here.

 

C.  I'd presume its somewhat of an audition to see if they need to bring in Shoen or some other dude to oversee the operation post draft-FA or conversely Rivera is already sold and they will add staff below Kyle and he with either get the GM title post draft or no one gets it.

 

D.  Chris Russell who has been pretty good on knowing scuttlebutt about the FO said last year from what he's heard Doug would be upset if Kyle is elevated in power as for having a bigger title than him.  If so, the irony is Doug was moved out of the picture in the FO so that wouldn't matter anyway. 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Smith could be in a strong position to build the Redskins. The team has the second overall pick in the draft and could easily go into free agency with more than $90 million in salary cap space. There are still plenty of questions, particularly at offensive line, where both Redskins starting guards are pending free agents (Brandon Scherff and Ereck Flowers) and star left tackle Trent Williams sat out the 2019 season. 

With Smith heading personnel and Rob Rogers now running contracts, the Redskins are prepared for the offseason. Alex Santos remains in his role as the director of pro personnel, a source confirmed, while Tim Gribble could be in line for a promotion. Gribble had served as assistant director of college scouting under Smith. 

It's worth noting, too, that while Rivera and Smith haven't worked together in the NFL, Rivera worked with A.J. Smith during his time with the Chargers. Rivera was the defensive coordinator then in San Diego from 2008 to 2010, and A.J. Smith, Kyle's dad, was the general manager. 

Plenty of speculation pointed to Rivera and the Redskins finding a new general manager after the NFL Draft in April. If Smith performs well in the next few months, that could change. 

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/redskins/redskins-make-another-major-front-office-move-time-promoting-kyle-smith

 

 

 

 

[ShredSkins]

On 1/11/2020 at 3:59 PM, skinsfan212689 said:

I think we bring in an outside GM. Kyle Smith should be promoted to Senior VP of player personnel or Asst. GM. Give him college and pro personnel control/responsibility and add a GM to oversee it all. Maybe Dan Morgan or Rick Smith (whomever Rivera wants there). 

No need for a team president. 
 

That would be a good set up going forward. 

 

I’d also be ok with Kyle getting the GM role if RR thinks he’s ready/earned it. 
 

Hail

Nice call! 

[TSO]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

A.  Doug had the title of being in charge of personnel but that's mostly what it was a title.  He wasn't a lead on personnel on either the pro or college side.  He was mostly a facilitator in the building and brought some personal cohesion to a fractured building but he wasn't much of an evaluator. 

Like we said from the onset.  

 

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

B.  Kyle I bet becomes the real deal in terms of being the defacto personnel guy here.

Like we wanted from the onset (or someone else qualified with a similar background in talent evaluation).  

 

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

C.  I'd presume its somewhat of an audition to see if they need to bring in Shoen or some other dude to oversee the operation post draft-FA or conversely Rivera is already sold and they will add staff below Kyle and he with either get the GM title post draft or no one gets it.

Yup, and hopefully that’s exactly what happens, they’re not reporting to Ron,  and they’re given control over their department with final say over the 90, draft and FA. 
 

That being said, it won’t be the end of the world if they are reporting to Ron as we’ve discussed, even though that’s a set up that fails more than the other, because of Dan and the legitimate concerns with him. 
 

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

D.  Chris Russell who has been pretty good on knowing scuttlebutt about the FO said last year from what he's heard Doug would be upset if Kyle is elevated in power as for having a bigger title than him.  If so, the irony is Doug was moved out of the picture in the FO so that wouldn't matter anyway.

Yup. 
 

I think it also shows that Doug didn’t really respect Bruce as much as he respects Ron. He’s willing to put his ego aside and focus on what Ron thinks is his strength, even if that’s not how he saw himself prior to that, whereas with Bruce he was probably thinking “...I can do whatever you’re doing and better, bro”. 

[Birdlives]

What matters is the people. It’s worked in many different ways with other organizations. The people matter, not the titles.

[Birdlives]

20 minutes ago, thesubmittedone said:

I think it also shows that Doug didn’t really respect Bruce as much as he respects Ron. He’s willing to put his ego aside and focus on what Ron thinks is his strength, even if that’s not how he saw himself prior to that, whereas with Bruce he was probably thinking “...I can do whatever you’re doing and better, bro”. 

 

I think it goes beyond that. Doug doesn’t have a ego in this situation. He couldn’t care less what you think about him or whether you(us, not you specifically) think he got demoted or not. Doug has spent most of his life trying to make young men into good and great men. He’s truly admirable for that. Having him is a huge asset. He just wants to see these kids grow and succeed and become better people like he became. There’s an old Yiddish word, and Doug fits it to a tee. He’s a Mensch. 

[TSO]

1 hour ago, Birdlives said:

What matters is the people. It’s worked in many different ways with other organizations. The people matter, not the titles.

Too simplistic.
 

What ultimately matters is the people given those titles, true. But the titles need to be set up in a way that allows those people to have clearly defined roles and fulfill those roles relative to their expertise without unwarranted interference. 
 

People matter. The environment they’re in matters. And that environment is largely contingent upon those titles/roles. 
 

Which is why, thus far, the way it’s being set up has been much better than what we’ve had in the past, including with Doug. Saying that doesn’t matter is basically saying Ron is wasting his time defining and assigning these roles so far. Might as well not change a thing other than the people, but that’s not what he’s done. 
 

1 hour ago, Birdlives said:

 

I think it goes beyond that. Doug doesn’t have a ego in this situation. He couldn’t care less what you think about him or whether you(us, not you specifically) think he got demoted or not. Doug has spent most of his life trying to make young men into good and great men. He’s truly admirable for that. Having him is a huge asset. He just wants to see these kids grow and succeed and become better people like he became. There’s an old Yiddish word, and Doug fits it to a tee. He’s a Mensch. 

 

I may have come off wrong there with the ego thing, I wasn’t being negative towards Doug. Let me explain. 
 

First, I don’t think we can ignore the Chris Russel report about Doug being upset were Kyle elevated above him regarding player personnel acquisition. 
 

And that’s your prerogative, but for all of Russel’s faults, he’s been pretty accurate with his reports regarding the FO the last few years, as @Skinsinparadise has delineated many times. 

Doesn’t guarantee it’s accurate, but it’s reasonable to assume so. 

 

So that’s not a knock on Doug, which is what I was trying to expand upon. It was just a speculative theory on my end. He likely didn’t recognize the issue with his title in the first place there and it’s my opinion that was a symptom of some underlying issue with Bruce. At the very least, he didn’t care for how Bruce saw it, had his own opinion on the matter, and drew a line. 
 

The fact that he’s now totally out of player personnel acquisition, Kyle is heading both sides of it, and he was willing to accept that instead of “be upset” means he’s got more of a respect for Ron and how he sees things. Or it could mean he just wants a job no matter what, but I think more highly of Doug than that. 
 

So, yes, he put his ego aside. I wasn’t trying to say it like it’s a bad thing, more that he had a right to have that ego with Bruce whereas now he recognizes he doesn’t. 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

 

[sportsnut]

It doesn't look like we're following the Chiefs model where both the head coach and GM report to the owner.  Both VPs (Smith and Rogers) report to Rivera.  If we hire a GM, I suspect he'll also report to Rivera.

[Skinsinparadise]

I just listened to multiple Keim podcasts.  I tend to trust him the most because he's so conservative and least willing to inflame.  Among his points, some of which I piece together from some of his other podcasts:

 

A.  People he talked to before the changes said the Redskins will start winning when the non-football people make decisions and that means both Bruce and Dan stop overruling their football guys.

 

B.  The feeling was Bruce like Dan couldn't help himself but mess with the groceries even if he was just reassigned.  Bruce has some Dan in him -- implication I took is Bruce almost felt like it was his team at times.  I wonder if Dan empowering him to attend owner meetings on his behalf, gave him that type of empowerment

 

C. In Dan's back and forth with coaching and GM candidates-agents, he learned that Bruce was a nonstarter with them.  Jones-Keim got the sense there was a last ditch effort by Dan to see if people would accept Bruce being reassigned but that wasn't accepted by his targets to come here. 

 

D. Apparently Larry Hess was one of Dan's drinking buddies, too.  That was the big reveal to me.

 

E.  Keim goes Dan likes to have fun with this team with the people he likes and keeps those people too long whether its staff or pet players.  And Dan might be finally jarred out of that feeling because he can see his business is in trouble.  Hess apparently was part of the Dan club.

 

F.  Keim doesn't outright say it but implies that having fun and doing things their way at Redskins Park -- for Dan-Bruce came off more important than winning.  He said when Gibbs was here there was a much more focused vibe to the building.

 

G.  They skimped on stuff and were cheap at Redskins Park including they wouldn't have the right number of beds so players in turn have to wait for another player to be addressed before its their turn to get therapy, etc.  

 

 

Digesting all of that and coupling that with some of Chris Russell's stories among other things.  It paints the picture like Redskins Park was like a college dorm with Dan, Bruce among others having a good time with their compadres.  I recall even with when the Scot stories broke out, the people breaking that story also conveyed that Scot's drinking antics fit in very well with plenty of others there.  That's when the line came out about Bruce brushes his teeth with Coors Light.

 

I used to have this image of Dan being this autocratic jerk who was impatient and couldn't help but butt in.     It seems like though there is another side to Dan, the dude who craves social interaction at Redskins Park.  I sort of took the going to Vegas stories with Portis and bowling with RG3, etc as Dan just idolizing players like a fan in an unhealthy way.  But it seems like it might be something else and that is Dan wanting a social circle at Redskins Park and having a good time.  Hopefully Rivera ends that party.   I am not against Dan having friends naturally.  But it's a business he's running not a fraternity. 

[Llevron]

I would be his friend happily if it kept him away from the team in that way. Seriously sign me the **** up we would be wasted daily and I would get him to grow dreads. 

 

 

[London Kev]

The quality of the posts in this thread is amazing, thanks to all concerned.  There is a lot of information in here and this has probably already been covered and I've missed it, but if we do indeed hire a GM, is there an optimal structure or is it a 'depends on the people involved' type deal?

 

What I mean is; A, B or C?

 

A.  Dan  >  RR  >  GM.

B.  Dan  >  GM  >  RR.

C.  Dan  >  Ron  =  GM.

 

I always thought that it was B, but that would mean that Ron could have input into hiring his immediate boss, which seems kind of weird.

[TSO]

5 hours ago, London Kev said:

 

A.  Dan  >  RR  >  GM.

B.  Dan  >  GM  >  RR.

C.  Dan  >  Ron  =  GM.

 

I always thought that it was B, but that would mean that Ron could have input into hiring his immediate boss, which seems kind of weird.

Yeah, it’s been pretty much covered with only minor nitpicks, I believe. 
 

Yes, B or C are the optimal structures and simply have a lot more examples of sustainable success than A, where you only have two in the Seahawks and Pats. 
 

Right now, C is the best we can hope for. It’s what Ron himself was alluding to before he got hired (well, B or C), but the concern is how much that changed when Dan gave him everything.

 

The hope is that he, himself, creates that structure (likely after the draft) understanding the importance of checks and balances, and that their definition of “Coach-centric” wasn’t about the coach being the sole, top exec in the organization, but more just about him initially setting everything up in the best way for coaches to succeed. 

[sportsnut]

There should also be a D where the GM and RR are on equal footing and both report directly to Dan.  It looks like we are A or C.  Most teams are B or D.

[TSO]

28 minutes ago, sportsnut said:

There should also be a D where the GM and RR are on equal footing and both report directly to Dan.  It looks like we are A or C.  Most teams are B or D.

I think that’s what he meant by C. That Ron and the GM are equal and both reporting to Dan. 
 

At least that’s how I read it. You might be right, lol.

 

@London Kev what say you?  

[wit33]

The QB must fit in the hierarchy at some point in these above formulas. No?? 
 

The Texans don’t have a GM, but made the second round of the playoffs, due to having an elite QB. 
 

The Colts became a below average team without their elite QB. 
 

Does the elite QB become as powerful as the GM or coach??

[London Kev]

46 minutes ago, sportsnut said:

There should also be a D where the GM and RR are on equal footing and both report directly to Dan.  It looks like we are A or C.  Most teams are B or D.

 

20 minutes ago, thesubmittedone said:

I think that’s what he meant by C. That Ron and the GM are equal and both reporting to Dan. 
 

At least that’s how I read it. You might be right, lol.

 

@London Kev what say you?  

 

Yeah, that was my option C.

 

Thinking about it more I prefer option B, where the HC reports to the GM, who in turn reports to the owner.  But I suppose as long as everyone's role is clearly defined and everyone is accountable, then whatever works is right.

[sportsnut]

I thought C was if we don’t hire a GM.  If we do, he will likely report to Ron - as in scenario A.

[TSO]

16 minutes ago, sportsnut said:

I thought C was if we don’t hire a GM.  If we do, he will likely report to Ron - as in scenario A.

 No, all of the ones he listed were with the assumption of actually hiring a GM. @London Kev was then listing the various structures WITH a GM. Scenario A is where the GM reports to Ron who reports to Dan. B is where Ron reports to the GM who reports to Dan. And C is where they’re both equals and both report to Dan. 
 

42 minutes ago, London Kev said:

 

 

Yeah, that was my option C.

 

Thinking about it more I prefer option B, where the HC reports to the GM, who in turn reports to the owner.  But I suppose as long as everyone's role is clearly defined and everyone is accountable, then whatever works is right.

 

Yeah, that’s what most of us prefer, but at this point that’s unlikely.
 

The best we can hope for is C.
 

As for A, @Skinsinparadise has made some good points as to why, though A isn’t the optimal structure and has failed more than B or C, with Dan being who he is it’s not the end of the world and there may even be some positives to it. 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, wit33 said:

The QB must fit in the hierarchy at some point in these above formulas. No?? 
 

The Texans don’t have a GM, but made the second round of the playoffs, due to having an elite QB. 
 

The Colts became a below average team without their elite QB. 
 

Does the elite QB become as powerful as the GM or coach??

 

It's a variable to winning and losing but it has nothing to do with a FO discussion albeit Dan in his own idiosyncratic ways has made the position relevant to the discussion of the proper roles of an owner, GM or coach.

 

Otherwise, that's a personnel discussion not a FO point.   

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

As for A, @Skinsinparadise has made some good points as to why, though A isn’t the optimal structure and has failed more than B or C, with Dan being who he is it’s not the end of the world and there may even be some positives to it. 

 

My position has shifted some about Dan because I've reached the conclusion that Dan's social life/social relationships has weighed heavier on decisions than what I previously thought.

 

So if that's the case, I don't want Dan hanging with any of his buddies inside that building who will whisper to him that he's right about whatever floats his boat at that moment or they tell him hey Rivera is wrong about this or that, etc. 

 

I've seen how people-operations like that function in some of my jobs, and I've experienced the drama first hand.  I haven't really thought about relating my own experience to all of this until recently.    But now that i have, I think I get what Rivera is trying to do. 

 

Albert Breer actually did a nice job explaining that some in a recent Keim podcast where he and Keim talked about divisions in the building and factions and how a coach centric model helps put some of that to rest.  

 

And again let me preface the point that by coach centric I don't like any model where the coach shops for the groceries and that version of the model has certainly existed around the league and mostly failed.   But if its Rivera doing all the hires, I've become a convert to that idea the more I hear different stories about Dan.  And I suspect Rivera has thought this point through and wants to mitigate the usual Dan dysfunction.  

[sportsnut]

Right now Kyle reports to Ron.  If we hire a GM, I suspect that he will report to Ron.  That means that Ron is shopping for the groceries.

[TSO]

1 hour ago, sportsnut said:

Right now Kyle reports to Ron.  If we hire a GM, I suspect that he will report to Ron.  That means that Ron is shopping for the groceries.

Well, it’s not a crazy wild assumption to make, but it’s also not set in stone. 
 

There are cases in the NFL where the coach is involved in or leading the hire of the GM, but the GM still ends up as his equal with both reporting to the owner. Actually, that’s the majority of them. 
 

So there’s still some hope regarding that. 

[KDawg]

To be honest, and while not ideal, I’d be okay with Rivera being the guy in charge. With the caveat being that he doesn’t strong arm the personnel department to see things his way. 
 

He lets Kyle and his team work. Listens, gives his opinion and lets the personnel side make decisions.

 

Most men wouldn’t be able to just sit back when they are “in charge”. But Shanahan et al weren’t the type of humans to put in that role and expect them to sit back. 
 

I think, personality wise, Rivera could be. 
 

Ultimately, Rivera will answer to Snyder... they’ve already said he’s the tie breaker on things. Which, to be frank, and I’m sure someone is going to freak out at this: I don’t mind. He’s the owner. They’re always involved. To expect ZERO involvement is asinine. He just shouldn’t be involved In decision making unless he is asked for his input on matters that can’t be resolved. That is the catch. 
 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

9 hours ago, sportsnut said:

Right now Kyle reports to Ron.  If we hire a GM, I suspect that he will report to Ron.  That means that Ron is shopping for the groceries.

 

He flat out in a recent interview said he doesn't want to be the guy shopping for the groceries.  So I'll take him at his word until I see otherwise.