Welcome To The Redskins: Ron Rivera, Head Coach

[Jumbo]

agree point for point, sip

 

the pairing of me and actual optimism where the redskins are concerned is a long way away, yet i do think ron may actually have the required mix of specific "people skills" (unlike shanahan, when it comes to dan at least), nfl gravitas, and actual competency, to get farther down a functional---dare i say successful---road than his predecessors have done, even looking back to gibbs 2

 

but i put little emo investment in that thinking until it's proven to be sound the only way it can be---on the field

 

 

 

[Burgundy Yoda]

He actually reminds me of Gibbs in his team philosophy. He mentioned how there were going to be core Redskins that were the foundation of the team, and we would put pieces around them. I could have sworn Gibbs said nearly the same thing

[zCommander]

59 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

He actually reminds me of Gibbs in his team philosophy. He mentioned how there were going to be core Redskins that were the foundation of the team, and we would put pieces around them. I could have sworn Gibbs said nearly the same thing

 

Ron did hang out with Gibbs at his house and Gibbs did do x's and o's with him (Ron said).

[TSO]

4 hours ago, Jumbo said:

agree point for point, sip

 

the pairing of me and actual optimism where the redskins are concerned is a long way away, yet i do think ron may actually have the required mix of specific "people skills" (unlike shanahan, when it comes to dan at least), nfl gravitas, and actual competency, to get farther down a functional---dare i say successful---road than his predecessors have done, even looking back to gibbs 2

 

but i put little emo investment in that thinking until it's proven to be sound the only way it can be---on the field

 

 

 

Same here, but I think I’ll even get to that point of actual, unbridled, optimism if I see the structure set up properly after the draft. It’s just the final step in what has been nothing but solid moves thus far that I need to see.

 

If this wasn’t Dan, I’d probably already be there. 
 

If we assign someone qualified the GM title (and they have final say over the roster - or at least the 90, FA and draft), I’ll be on cloud 9. 
 

If not? I’ll be pretty much right where you are now. 
 

It might not automatically mean success on the field, and Ron might not end up being the answer, but at least it’s a legitimate attempt being made at the highest of levels for a sound organization. That’s all I’ve wanted as a fan for years now. I don’t need wins as much as I need to see them doing what it takes to get them. I can positively root for everyone involved, Dan included, win or lose, instead of constantly being frustrated and annoyed that people are being set up to fail. 

[MartinC]

13 minutes ago, thesubmittedone said:

If we assign someone qualified the GM title (and they have final say over the roster - or at least the 90, FA and draft), I’ll be on cloud 9. 

That’s not happening. At least the GM with final say bit - that’s with Ron.

 

i think Kyle Smith is on trial through the free agency and draft process under his current title for the senior personnel position - and I’m good with that.

[TSO]

49 minutes ago, MartinC said:

That’s not happening. At least the GM with final say bit - that’s with Ron.

 

 

Why not? 

 

If they follow the Chiefs and 49ers model, of which Ron mentioned himself, then he'll be involved in hiring one who will have that final say over the roster. 

 

I don't see why you're so sure?

 

49 minutes ago, MartinC said:

i think Kyle Smith is on trial through the free agency and draft process under his current title for the senior personnel position - and I’m good with that.

 

Agree with the first part of it, but I also think you're going too far with the assumption that his current title is the only one he's auditioning for. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he gets elevated to GM after the draft. There's nothing I've seen to show that one way or the other, unless you've heard otherwise. 

 

And, really, the evidence is stronger the other way if we're going to take Ron at his word. He's said multiple times he doesn't want that power. So if he retains it, that'd be unlike what he's stated himself.   

[SkinsFTW]

4 hours ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

He actually reminds me of Gibbs in his team philosophy. He mentioned how there were going to be core Redskins that were the foundation of the team, and we would put pieces around them. I could have sworn Gibbs said nearly the same thing

 

I heard that one Super Smart guy named Greg Olsen just happens to be available in a couple days and who did he just play for an entire decade for?

 

Hmm...

[bakedtater1]

Feels good being a Redskins fan these days..I understand it'll take some wins to change things around but I'm sure as hell buzzing with what's gone on in this new year already 

[Burgundy Yoda]

18 minutes ago, bakedtater1 said:

Feels good being a Redskins fan these days..I understand it'll take some wins to change things around but I'm sure as hell buzzing with what's gone on in this new year already 

Rivera is taking on an ownership mindset with this team and I love it.

[Vanguard]

Watch the latest Redskins Talk with coach Rivera.  It was good.

[Voice_of_Reason]

5 hours ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

I heard that one Super Smart guy named Greg Olsen just happens to be available in a couple days and who did he just play for an entire decade for?

 

Hmm...

He fights his guts out.

[Voice_of_Reason]

6 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

And, really, the evidence is stronger the other way if we're going to take Ron at his word. He's said multiple times he doesn't want that power. So if he retains it, that'd be unlike what he's stated himself.   

Yeah, but now he’s got it.  And human nature is such that it’s hard to give something up which you have.

 

I could totally see a world where Ron technically retains the decision making authority, however essentially delegates a lot of it to Kyle, and they work basically as a team. And at that point, if the two of them, and by definition their staffs, are in agreement, the “final say” matters less.

 

What would be FASCINATING however if there was a major disagreement about pick 2.  Let’s say Ron/Jack REALLY want Chase Young, but Kyle likes a deal from team X to trade down and get a ransom.  Both of those positions could be easily defended, and neither is right or wrong. How they would work through that would be really interesting. At the end of the day, I think Ron would make the decision. Right or wrong.

 

And that scenario is why I think it’s unlikely Ron gives up the final roster authority. I think he’s work REALLY hard to get consensus.  And in my above scenario, if Kyle AND Jack thought trading down was better, I bet Ron would go with that decision.  I don’t see him as a dictator or power hungry.  And I think he’ll trust his people.  
 

But I just don’t see him giving up the final say.  Which again, might mean nothing because they might all be in agreement by the time a decision has to be made.

[crabbypatty]

I'm optimistic about things and I think Ron was absolutely the right hire at this point in time. He may not win a sb, and that's fine. He's here to build a culture and start laying the foundation for how things should have been from the get go.

 

Rivera is the type of guy that commands respect because he's earned it. All his past players say as much (if not in those terms)

I think he's one of the few guys Dan wouldn't dare screw with, just because of the type of person he is. (It would be like disappointing your dad) and I think Dan wouldn't want to cross the man, just like Joe G.

With Gibbs still being involved it's obvious Dan didn't burn that bridge and backstab him, and I think it'll be the same with Ron.

 

Gibbs did what he with with Vinny running the show.. now we've got another Gibbs type but with a Kyle Smith in charge making picks like Terry Mac instead of turds like Kevin Barnes (that guy was the smallest stiffest "athlete" I've even seen.. still salty about that pick)

So the sky is the limit for Rivera.

He looks like he's here to mold the organization from the ground up.. even shanny didn't seem like he wanted to make whole sale changes. He just wanted to run his system and get his kid involved.

 

[MartinC]

5 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

Why not? 

 

If they follow the Chiefs and 49ers model, of which Ron mentioned himself, then he'll be involved in hiring one who will have that final say over the roster. 

 

I don't see why you're so sure?

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/redskins/dont-worry-about-final-say-over-redskins-personnel-because-ron-rivera-has-it

 

This is Ron’s show. He’s setting the structure, and he’s making the hires. Kyle Smith reports to Ron. Doug Williams reports to Ron. If he brings in a GM he will also report to Ron.

 

Now having final say is one thing. How and when you use it is something else. One thing that does give me hope is that for the first time in a long time the coaching staff and front office will be in synch. There will be one shared vision for the kind of football we want to play, what that means schematically and the kind of players we need to retain, recruit and draft to meet those needs. 
 

There will be a lot of voices and Ron will take input - but he will break all ties.

[Koolblue13]

5 hours ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

I heard that one Super Smart guy named Greg Olsen just happens to be available in a couple days and who did he just play for an entire decade for?

 

Hmm...

You know how ****ing invaluable that will be for Haskins and potentially Hentges? 

 

Olsen would be a HUGE get. In every way.

[88Comrade2000]

6 hours ago, bakedtater1 said:

Feels good being a Redskins fan these days..I understand it'll take some wins to change things around but I'm sure as hell buzzing with what's gone on in this new year already 

I Feel Good also.

 

Keeping fingers cross that Dan stays out and let Ron and his GM do their jobs. 

[88Comrade2000]

Here's that GFMB appearance.

 

 

[SkinsFTW]

 

 

 

13 hours ago, Rdskns2000 said:

I Feel Good also.

 

Keeping fingers cross that Dan stays out and let Ron and his GM do their jobs. 

 

Dan replies with:

 

 

[TSO]

11 hours ago, MartinC said:

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/redskins/dont-worry-about-final-say-over-redskins-personnel-because-ron-rivera-has-it

 

This is Ron’s show. He’s setting the structure, and he’s making the hires. Kyle Smith reports to Ron. Doug Williams reports to Ron. If he brings in a GM he will also report to Ron.

 

Now having final say is one thing. How and when you use it is something else. One thing that does give me hope is that for the first time in a long time the coaching staff and front office will be in synch. There will be one shared vision for the kind of football we want to play, what that means schematically and the kind of players we need to retain, recruit and draft to meet those needs. 
 

There will be a lot of voices and Ron will take input - but he will break all ties.

He has it for now, yes. However, that may be due to the reality of scouting department contracts running through the draft and nothing else. We’ve seen that setting the structure, making the hire or being involved in it does not preclude one from setting up the structure that way (Chiefs, Niners, Bills). You’re automatically assuming that to be the case when it’s not. 
 

 All I’m saying is that will be disappointing if it remains the case. I’m holding on to the hope that Ron stays true to his word about not wanting final say over the roster and sets it up in the best way. I’m not going to assume he won’t just because he’s making the hires, and I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt regarding his own words on the matter. 

 

As for that set up, we can justify it all we want, it doesn’t change that it damn near never works. 
 

The two teams in the Super Bowl have a set up with a coach and GM equal in rank where the GM has final say over the roster. The vast majority of playoff teams this year have a GM higher in rank with final say. The vast majority of sustainably successful franchises in the NFL have either of those two set ups with the GM having final say over the roster (or at least the 90, FA and draft).

 

That is the reality. If we don’t get that, it’s disappointing. It’s concerning. End of story. 
 

Doesn’t mean it won’t work. Doesn’t mean that we won’t prove to be an exception. But that’s what we’ll have to be hoping for. That, yet again, we’re rooting for Dan Snyder’s Skins to be an exception to the rule. To think that’s not a problem at all is naive at best. 
 

So I’m going to hope for otherwise. I’ll be rooting for Ron no matter what, but it won’t be with unbridled optimism like I said to @Jumbo  

 

Btw, that article you linked to has bad information in it. The Chiefs are not an example of a coach having final say over personnel. It’s getting frustrating that that’s been repeated so often. 

[tmandoug1]

The one thing that I haven't read in this thread yet ( I may have missed it) is player loyalty that RR seems to have. That has not been a part of this team in decades........players will actually want to come here. I might even go so far as to say they would come here for less money in some cases just to be part of Ron's world. But I am usually wrong😁.

[TSO]

11 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Yeah, but now he’s got it.  And human nature is such that it’s hard to give something up which you have.

 

I could totally see a world where Ron technically retains the decision making authority, however essentially delegates a lot of it to Kyle, and they work basically as a team. And at that point, if the two of them, and by definition their staffs, are in agreement, the “final say” matters less.

That’s disappointing. Period. 
 

If you think it matters less, then why wouldn’t he just give that up so as to have that check on himself? If he’s “essentially delegating” it to Kyle, then why not make it official? 
 

It’s a silly way of justifying it, in my opinion. Yeah, not going to just stick my head in the sand and ignore the reality of the NFL. This is similar to what we’ve been claiming is perfectly fine for decades with Dan now. What’s next? “It’s a Redskins decision”? When we know damn well that the guy with final say on something isn’t the most qualified person regarding that something? 
 

Now, maybe it’s like @Skinsinparadise said and we’re stuck with it having to be this way because Dan can’t handle it any other way properly, but that just means he’s still a major hindrance to success and it’s disappointing to say the least. 
 

Yes, there are certain things about this set up that are better than anything we’ve ever had under Dan already, and the coaches here will benefit unlike anyone before them from it, but there is absolutely something to be concerned about if it remains as is and it’s a set up we’ve seen under Dan fail multiple times. 
 

I hope you guys are dead wrong about Ron retaining that power and we get good news about it after the draft. If not, there’s good reason to be skeptical for sure. 

[MartinC]

9 minutes ago, thesubmittedone said:

He has it for now, yes. However, that may be due to the reality of scouting department contracts running through the draft and nothing else. We’ve seen that making the hire or being involved in it does not preclude one from setting up the structure that way (Chiefs, Niners). You’re automatically assuming that to be the case when it’s not. 

It’s not impossible the structure changes - but it’s very very unlikely IMO. Any structure or decision making process can change at any time - but when it’s the person at the top of that chain voluntarily giving up the final say, not so much.

 

There are a number of examples around the league of similar structures to the one we have now. More of the one you are advocating for - and which I would also be more in favour of all things being equal. 
 

I would say two things about structure, one general for any org and one specific to the NFL. The first is that any structure is as good as the people within it. The second is that in the NFL which ever structure you use works if you hit big at QB. The success of Rivera will have a lot more to do with the development of Dwayne Haskins than if he or a yet to be hired GM gets to decide who the 52 and 53 guys on the roster are.

[TSO]

37 minutes ago, MartinC said:

It’s not impossible the structure changes - but it’s very very unlikely IMO. Any structure or decision making process can change at any time - but when it’s the person at the top of that chain voluntarily giving up the final say, not so much.

Sure, which is what will be disappointing. Which is why I said that, if that final step was made after the draft I’d be on cloud 9, even before seeing any results on the field. As it stands, and were this set up to remain, I’m in the same boat as @Jumbo regarding my skepticism. 
 

That being said, I’m more hopeful than you are because of: 

 

1) Ron’s own words and; 

 

2) The reality of GM/Assistant GM/Scout contracts running through the draft, and finally;
 

3) The coach being the guy to set up the structure hasn’t automatically meant that he retains final say over personnel, just that he’s involved in hiring the guy who will (Niners, Chiefs, Bills). 
 

37 minutes ago, MartinC said:

There are a number of examples around the league of similar structures to the one we have now. More of the one you are advocating for - and which I would also be more in favour of all things being equal. 

There are only two similar to ours right now that have shown to be sustainably successful, the Seahawks and Pats. As for the Seahawks, Schneider has control of the roster in everything but name, so it’s weird why they don’t just say it. As for the Pats, they’re an exception to the exception because of Tom Brady. 

The scary thing is there’s a lot more examples of failures with this set up than anything else. I’m following the Texans ever since Rick Smith had to leave and Bill O’Brien took total control. It hasn’t looked good in terms of resource management thus far, so I won’t be surprised if there’s an imminent collapse coming there soon. We’ll see. 

 

As for what I’m advocating for, there’s not just more examples, but a lot more in terms of sustainably successful franchises in that structure. 

 

So, yeah, that’s all I’m saying. Like you, I’m in favor of that for good reason, and I can’t just stick my head in the sand ignoring that just because I like Ron or am hoping the Redskins win. I’ll be disappointed if we end up with this structure, that’s all. 
 

37 minutes ago, MartinC said:

I would say two things about structure, one general for any org and one specific to the NFL. The first is that any structure is as good as the people within it. The second is that in the NFL which ever structure you use works if you hit big at QB. The success of Rivera will have a lot more to do with the development of Dwayne Haskins than if he or a yet to be hired GM gets to decide who the 52 and 53 guys on the roster are.

Agreed about the first part.
 

As for the second, I think there is a lot of evidence showing that you have a better chance at “hitting big” at QB when you have a certain structure. It’s not just based on luck. Yes, a QB needs to have a baseline of talent for them to succeed, but once they do their environment factors into it just as much. I’ve done a lot of research on this topic before: 

 

https://es.redskins.com/topic/393825-a-case-study-in-how-to-get-lucky-with-finding-qbs-you-naughty-little-boy/

 

So I wouldn’t say it’s as simple as saying that whichever structure you have works if you hit big on QB... basically, one can argue that that a big reason one structure fails more often than not is because it’s harder for them to hit on said QB as opposed to the other. 
 

But, yeah, hitting on QB is a massive factor. Since they’re a part of player personnel, and thus need to be scouted and identified by experts in that department, I think one structure (the one we both agree we’re in favor of) is more conducive to doing so than the other, and that has been borne out in the league. 

[MartinC]

As well as the Patriots and Seahawks you can add the Texans and Chiefs to the list of teams with the HC at the top of the power structure and final say. All 4 have elite QBs but I don’t put that down to the structure - more good scouting or dumb luck in the case of the Patriots.

 

As for the QB we have already selected Haskins - his development this year will dictate if we are looking for a QB again in 2021. If he develops the way I think he can and will then we will be competitive very quickly (at least in the context of the NFCE). If he does not develop we will be looking at another two season of struggle and transition. 
 

I agree with you about structure around the QB and the environment being key to a QBs success - would Brady have been BRADY if he was picked by the Redskins in the 6th round - very unlikely. And I do think that we have a much better chance of putting a team around Haskins and giving him a better situation with a unified coaching and front office vision of what we are trying to build. That disconnect as been one of the factors in our struggles.

[TSO]

6 minutes ago, MartinC said:

As well as the Patriots and Seahawks you can add the Texans and Chiefs to the list of teams with the HC at the top of the power structure and final say. All 4 have elite QBs but I don’t put that down to the structure - more good scouting or dumb luck in the case of the Patriots.

Like I already mentioned, Texans are a newer example because Rick Smith left due to his wife being diagnosed with cancer and not one of “sustained success”. We’ll see how that goes, but are you okay with what Bill O’Brien has done since last offseason? Those trades were ridiculous, in my mind. I think Texan fans agree. 
 

As for the Chiefs, like I’ve said, it’s frustrating they keep being used as an example. They are not. 
 

They have a HC and GM both equal in rank reporting to their Chairman and CEO. Andy Reid does NOT have final say over personnel. Brett Veach does and, previous to that, Dorsey did. 
 

When I refer to the Pats and Seahawks, I make it a point to say “examples of sustainably successful” franchises with that set up. They’re the only two. Everyone else is an example of failure or don’t have enough time to judge them with.