4-3 Starting Lineup

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

Payne is the most important element of the whole defensive line, in my opinion. Not Sweat, not Allen, not Ioan, not Young. Daron Payne. If he can thrive at the 1-tech spot the rest of those guys are going to get chances to do incredible things. Him at the 1 with a true MIKE in base sets is going to make things so different.

Huuuuge thankless football that produces no direct stats, but let's everyone else eat and is really one of my favorite things to watch. And when they catch on, unleash Payne and let him get after the QB. Hes our best player IMO.

[Darth Tater]

7 hours ago, KDawg said:

Payne is the most important element of the whole defensive line, in my opinion. Not Sweat, not Allen, not Ioan, not Young. Daron Payne. If he can thrive at the 1-tech spot the rest of those guys are going to get chances to do incredible things. Him at the 1 with a true MIKE in base sets is going to make things so different.

Well, I was watching old games but from about 1975 to 1988, Dave Butz was almost always the most important element of the whole defensive line. I think the most important part of our defense using a 4-3 as coached by George Allen was the DT and Safety.

[mistertim]

7 hours ago, KDawg said:

Payne is the most important element of the whole defensive line, in my opinion. Not Sweat, not Allen, not Ioan, not Young. Daron Payne. If he can thrive at the 1-tech spot the rest of those guys are going to get chances to do incredible things. Him at the 1 with a true MIKE in base sets is going to make things so different.

 

I think the case could be made for all of those names except Young (though IIRC Ioan was doubled more than any other guy on our DL last season and still had 8.5 sacks). If we end up with Young and he ends up as good as most hope, then he's a guy that an entire offense has to game plan for and be very aware of on every single snap. Now, Payne will still be a super important part, but IMO a superstar edge rusher is going to be the most important part of a DL (unless you're talking about having a rare bird like Aaron Donald or JJ Watt in the interior).

 

That said, the interior of a DL is just as important as edge guys in general...if you can't get penetration up the middle and keep a QB from stepping up, then the edge rushers won't be nearly as effective. Young having to be game planned for would also tend to free up the guys in the middle to be even more disruptive, including Payne, especially if we're smart and we move Young around and do stunts/twists like other teams do with their elite rushers. You can only double team so many guys at once. 

[Koolblue13]

8 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I think the case could be made for all of those names except Young (though IIRC Ioan was doubled more than any other guy on our DL last season and still had 8.5 sacks). If we end up with Young and he ends up as good as most hope, then he's a guy that an entire offense has to game plan for and be very aware of on every single snap. Now, Payne will still be a super important part, but IMO a superstar edge rusher is going to be the most important part of a DL (unless you're talking about having a rare bird like Aaron Donald or JJ Watt in the interior).

 

That said, the interior of a DL is just as important as edge guys in general...if you can't get penetration up the middle and keep a QB from stepping up, then the edge rushers won't be nearly as effective. Young having to be game planned for would also tend to free up the guys in the middle to be even more disruptive, including Payne, especially if we're smart and we move Young around and do stunts/twists like other teams do with their elite rushers. You can only double team so many guys at once. 

Watch the chiefs video I posted and you'll understand why were talking about Payne. 

[mistertim]

15 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Watch the chiefs video I posted and you'll understand why were talking about Payne. 

 

I did watch it, and I don't disagree that Payne is an integral part of making a 4-3 work (well, especially 4-3 Over or Under, which I'm assuming we'll run a decent amount since we have the horses for it) vs the run. I just disagree that overall having a superstar All-Pro level pass rusher isn't even more important, especially when the guy can play the run as well. And since the NFL is now a passing league for the most part, the pass rushers are even more important than the run stoppers (and that video was talking purely about stopping the run). Not that stopping the run isn't important...it absolutely is. I'm just talking about overall whether a very good NT (which Payne is) or an elite pass rusher (which Chase could be) would be a more important piece to a DL, I'm going to go with the latter. 

[Koolblue13]

10 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

I did watch it, and I don't disagree that Payne is an integral part of making a 4-3 work (well, especially 4-3 Over or Under, which I'm assuming we'll run a decent amount since we have the horses for it) vs the run. I just disagree that overall having a superstar All-Pro level pass rusher isn't even more important, especially when the guy can play the run as well. And since the NFL is now a passing league for the most part, the pass rushers are even more important than the run stoppers (and that video was talking purely about stopping the run). Not that stopping the run isn't important...it absolutely is. I'm just talking about overall whether a very good NT (which Payne is) or an elite pass rusher (which Chase could be) would be a more important piece to a DL, I'm going to go with the latter. 

If you're the Chiefs, you're not in this game today and probably don't win, if you're not a very good run stopping team. It's more important at times.

 

I think that video also shows how we can go from bad to very good next season.

[mistertim]

10 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

If you're the Chiefs, you're not in this game today and probably don't win, if you're not a very good run stopping team. It's more important at times.

 

I think that video also shows how we can go from bad to very good next season.

 

But the video doesn't talk about any one player suddenly making a difference. It talks about how the scheme and the players finally gelled and they figured out who needed to do what. It's more about scheme, gap responsibilities, and fit for players than any one player. 

 

We were crappy against the run last year and we were dead last in 3rd down defense. Now part of that absolutely had to do with scheme and having a **** DC. But I think having a potential superstar pass rusher would certainly help as well because it frees up other guys and also helps get plenty of pressure with just your front 4. We were top 10 in sacks last year but dead last in 3rd down defense. it seemed like we only got sacks and pressure when it didn't matter the most. Again, part of that was just having a **** scheme that didn't align with the players, but part also had to do with not having anything close to an elite pass rusher. 

 

I just think that if I had to choose who's theoretically more important to a defense...a good NT or a superstar pass rusher, I'd go with the superstar pass rusher. There's a reason they get paid more than any other position outside of QBs. 

[Koolblue13]

33 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

But the video doesn't talk about any one player suddenly making a difference. It talks about how the scheme and the players finally gelled and they figured out who needed to do what. It's more about scheme, gap responsibilities, and fit for players than any one player. 

 

We were crappy against the run last year and we were dead last in 3rd down defense. Now part of that absolutely had to do with scheme and having a **** DC. But I think having a potential superstar pass rusher would certainly help as well because it frees up other guys and also helps get plenty of pressure with just your front 4. We were top 10 in sacks last year but dead last in 3rd down defense. it seemed like we only got sacks and pressure when it didn't matter the most. Again, part of that was just having a **** scheme that didn't align with the players, but part also had to do with not having anything close to an elite pass rusher. 

 

I just think that if I had to choose who's theoretically more important to a defense...a good NT or a superstar pass rusher, I'd go with the superstar pass rusher. There's a reason they get paid more than any other position outside of QBs. 

The video was about a certain player. The NT and how his responsibilities dictate the defenses ability to stop the run.

 

Sure, if only one could be a great player, the pass rusher would win, but I don't think anyone is proposing that question but you.

[mistertim]

14 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

The video was about a certain player. The NT and how his responsibilities dictate the defenses ability to stop the run.

 

Sure, if only one could be a great player, the pass rusher would win, but I don't think anyone is proposing that question but you.

 

I was originally responding to @KDawgwho said he thought Payne would be a more important part of a DL than Young. I disagreed (this is assuming that Young ends up being as good as we hope). I agree that good 1 tech NT type is a very important part of a good DL (especially when talking about stopping the run), but that an elite Edge guy who had to be game planned for and accounted for on every snap would be more important and more valuable overall. 

[KDawg]

Which I inherently disagree with. Your edge guys are absolutely worthless without the interior push, but your interior isn’t worthless without a stud edge rush.

 

Your interior is linked closer to the linebackers to help with their success. The edge is linked to the interior and coverage. 
 

The middle of it all is your 1-technique. 
 

If you watch Young’s film, one of his things is running deep up field to beat the tackle with speed and footwork. This sometimes makes him overrun the QB, it puts him behind the QB. The Ohio State front often collapsed the interior OL, causing QBs to extend their drops and Young cleans up.

 

Young is totally capable of hand fighting and making a straight line, but he has shown that he is so physically superior and his teammates as well, that he hasn’t had to.

 

If Payne/Allen/Ioan don’t collapse the pocket from the inside, QBs can step up and deliver. 
 

it works the other way, too. If there is no edge rush, QBs can buy time going to other way. But I think you can survive with a decent edge rush as long as you have a good interior push. 

[Koolblue13]

There is no need to pass, if you can just run the ball up the gut all day.

 

Like the 9ers did last week when they only passed 9 times.

[HTTRDynasty]

Part 2:

 

 

[mistertim]

35 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Which I inherently disagree with. Your edge guys are absolutely worthless without the interior push, but your interior isn’t worthless without a stud edge rush.

 

Your interior is linked closer to the linebackers to help with their success. The edge is linked to the interior and coverage. 
 

The middle of it all is your 1-technique. 
 

If you watch Young’s film, one of his things is running deep up field to beat the tackle with speed and footwork. This sometimes makes him overrun the QB, it puts him behind the QB. The Ohio State front often collapsed the interior OL, causing QBs to extend their drops and Young cleans up.

 

Young is totally capable of hand fighting and making a straight line, but he has shown that he is so physically superior and his teammates as well, that he hasn’t had to.

 

If Payne/Allen/Ioan don’t collapse the pocket from the inside, QBs can step up and deliver. 
 

it works the other way, too. If there is no edge rush, QBs can buy time going to other way. But I think you can survive with a decent edge rush as long as you have a good interior push. 

 

I don't disagree that the interior and the edge are both important. I'm just saying that if I had to choose between a good NT (which Payne is) and a superstar Edge guy (which Chase has the potential to be) then I'd choose the superstar Edge guy first. I think good big gap filling NTs are easier to find than elite Edge guys. If that weren't the case, the Edge guys wouldn't get so much damn money all the time. 

 

But there are a couple of things there that I bolded that I disagree with. I think that without good edge rushers your interior is borderline worthless when it comes to getting pressure on the QB. Now, if you're talking a guy like Aaron Donald, that's a different story but he's also a whole different kind of beast. What does it matter if your interior guys can hold their point of attack or get some penetration if the QB doesn't have to worry about guys coming around the sides? Just like the opposite...if you have edge guys but no interior guys then the QB just has to step up (this is assuming he's good at feeling edge rushers getting close). Without edge guys, he just has to step laterally instead. Against interior rush, the QB can also see the rush because it's right in front of him; he doesn't really have to worry about his peripheral vision or blind side because there isn't much of an edge rush. 

 

The second thing is about Chase Young running deep up field and overrunning the QB. In the film I've watched of him one of the things I've been the most impressed about was his ability (especially at his size) to be able to bend and flip his hips to stop going up field once he got to where the QB was. It was something that Urban Meyer specifically pointed out about him as well as others (IIRC Reggie Bush specifically called that out on one segment as what truly made him elite in his mind). Now, did he sometimes overrun? Sure, but that happens to even the best NFL pass rushers. But more often than not I didn't see him do it. 

 

Now, one thing I DO think Young will need to work on some in the NFL is his counter moves. Not because he doesn't have any, but because he's so rarely had to use them in college so they aren't as refined as they could/should be from what I've seen.

[joeken24]

Payne, Ian, Montez & Young alternating with Allen, Kerrighan, Settle and Anderson. I think the Redskins would do well by bringing in another guy like a Michael Brockers. He's probably a bit pricey, but hell with the cap space, maybe he's the splash signing. Lets face it, the run game was horrid and its not like they were in a 3 man front every time they got gashed on the run. I saw Allen and Payne pancaked a few times. We've seen the 3-4 in Pittsburgh stop the run, so blaming it exclusively on the alignment is an excuse IMO. To me, the linebacker play was atrocious. I think this new staff will be looking at linebacker a lot closer than currently being discussed. 

[skinny21]

11 minutes ago, joeken24 said:

Payne, Ian, Montez & Young alternating with Allen, Kerrighan, Settle and Anderson. I think the Redskins would do well by bringing in another guy like a Michael Brockers. He's probably a bit pricey, but hell with the cap space, maybe he's the splash signing. Lets face it, the run game was horrid and its not like they were in a 3 man front every time they got gashed on the run. I saw Allen and Payne pancaked a few times. We've seen the 3-4 in Pittsburgh stop the run, so blaming it exclusively on the alignment is an excuse IMO. To me, the linebacker play was atrocious. I think this new staff will be looking at linebacker a lot closer than currently being discussed. 

I agree with a lot of this.  
However, bringing in a FA lineman might be hard to do with other, more glaring needs on the table.  I also think it will be harder to double our tackles if Young is in the fold.  I think Payne and Settle (and probably Allen) are better suited to 1 gapping as well.  The linebackers will be a big key to all of this though and I’m not confident we’ve got the horses there.  Wouldn’t be shocked in we sign one and draft one.  

[joeken24]

12 hours ago, skinny21 said:

I agree with a lot of this.  
However, bringing in a FA lineman might be hard to do with other, more glaring needs on the table.  I also think it will be harder to double our tackles if Young is in the fold.  I think Payne and Settle (and probably Allen) are better suited to 1 gapping as well.  The linebackers will be a big key to all of this though and I’m not confident we’ve got the horses there.  Wouldn’t be shocked in we sign one and draft one.  

You're probably right on the FA lineman. I do like how Settles is quick to shoot the gaps. I'm still not sure about Allen. And of course Chase hasn't played a snap in the NFL. Like Rios said, everybody is talented in the NFL so we'll see if/when we get him in action. And to your other point, Rivera and Rios both played linebacker in their playing days, so I can't help but to think they'll be looking for some monsters in those linebacker spots. I'd be interested to hear them talk about the linebacker position. Of course one of these bone headed reporters are going to have to pose the question the right way. For me, I don't think we have a good linebacker in the building right now. At least not one with size, speed and most importantly play recognition/smarts. 

[skinny21]

@joeken24 Yes to all of that, absolutely.  
I like this guy as the backer you describe (just posted about him in the draft thread ironically):

 

 

[joeken24]

53 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

@joeken24 Yes to all of that, absolutely.  
I like this guy as the backer you describe (just posted about him in the draft thread ironically):

 

 

We'll see. I'll trust this staff to pick a good one that'll do their job. 

[Whiskeypeet]

Why are folks down on Allen (seems that way given the comments in this thread)?  Seems like most of the DL is getting a pass because of Manusky but not him.  Was there something particularly offensive about his performance?

[98ORAKPO98]

1 hour ago, Whiskeypeet said:

Why are folks down on Allen (seems that way given the comments in this thread)?  Seems like most of the DL is getting a pass because of Manusky but not him.  Was there something particularly offensive about his performance?

Not sure why anyone would be, he's our best defensive lineman imo. Ioinnidis, Payne and Settle are really good too, but Allen is the best.

[Whiskeypeet]

26 minutes ago, 98ORAKPO98 said:

Not sure why anyone would be, he's our best defensive lineman imo. Ioinnidis, Payne and Settle are really good too, but Allen is the best.

 

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting the commentary about Allen.  Feels like a negative bias....but i could be wrong.  

[Koolblue13]

13 hours ago, Whiskeypeet said:

 

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting the commentary about Allen.  Feels like a negative bias....but i could be wrong.  

I think some of that is that he is being talked about in different positions. As a pure 3 he could be a 10 sack guy, which is great. He also doesn't have any singular dominant traits, so that could be a reason why. He is definitely the starter inside next to Payne. Iaon, Payne and Settle can probably excel at both 1 and 3 tech, while Allen is purely a 3. 

[KDawg]

7 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

I think some of that is that he is being talked about in different positions. As a pure 3 he could be a 10 sack guy, which is great. He also doesn't have any singular dominant traits, so that could be a reason why. He is definitely the starter inside next to Payne. Iaon, Payne and Settle can probably excel at both 1 and 3 tech, while Allen is purely a 1. 

 

I think you mean Allen is purely a 3. Yeah, he's not a big bodied guy that is going to take on doubles all day and enjoy it. The way the D was set up last year did him no favors. He's a good player and we will see a difference this year just due to the coaching change. 

 

I also think Kerrigan needs to be kept at this point. He's a Redskin through and through. Restructure him and keep him. 

[Koolblue13]

9 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I think you mean Allen is purely a 3. Yeah, he's not a big bodied guy that is going to take on doubles all day and enjoy it. The way the D was set up last year did him no favors. He's a good player and we will see a difference this year just due to the coaching change. 

 

I also think Kerrigan needs to be kept at this point. He's a Redskin through and through. Restructure him and keep him. 

Yeah, that's totally what I meant and I agree.

[Warhead36]

Allen is solid but not a game changer. Honestly he's been a bit of a disappointment to me. He had a lot of hype coming in. I think Payne and Ion are both better.