FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[skinbuck]

Haskins would’ve NEVER stumbled on his own feet at the end of an 80 yard run, like Jones did last night. And i appreciate that about him. He’s well-coordinated.

[DJHJR86]

Seems like some members of Simba's Pride are still in the denial stage of grief.  I thought they had moved on to anger.  

[steven11]

22 minutes ago, skinbuck said:

Haskins would’ve NEVER stumbled on his own feet at the end of an 80 yard run, like Jones did last night. And i appreciate that about him. He’s well-coordinated.

He wouldn't because of how immobile he is!

[steven11]

8 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

All it takes to see how bad Rivera has been is to not invest blind faith in him because you're hoping he's the franchise savior.  Rivera has been a trainwreck from the moment he got here and it's painfully obvious if you're not investing hope in him.  But specifically in regard to the quarterbacks: abandoning the development of a QB prospect after four games is absolutely horse**** coaching.  That should be obvious.  Hinging a QB's job on not making mistakes to the media is horse**** coaching.  Also obvious.  Pinning the losses of a terrible team on the QB and saying the other guys played well enough to win is horse**** coaching.  Saying the rest of the roster was coming to him and complaining about the QB and potentially dividing your locker room by making guys wonder whose a snake is horse**** coaching.  Playing games with your QB and running little tests where you set him up to fail to see what he does both in games and in the media later on is horse**** coaching.  Abandoning long term building because "your gut told you to" is horse**** coaching.

I don't think anyone thought he was the long-term answer or franchise savior, more of a bridge coach to stabilize the culture, help along with a rebuild and develop our defensive prospects.

[TradeTheBeal!]

If Rivera has been a “trainwreck since the moment he got here” then we should have plenty of posts describing him as such prior to Dwayne getting benched.

 

Show your work.

[JSSkinz]

A lot of bold statements being thrown around about Ron being a disaster from just a select few who can't seem to move on, I don't know how anyone can make such outrageous claims so early in his tenure here.

 

Its coming off as weird, like an obsession.

[steven11]

A trainwreck since they got there was McCarthy!

[Thinking Skins]

8 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

All it takes to see how bad Rivera has been is to not invest blind faith in him because you're hoping he's the franchise savior.  Rivera has been a trainwreck from the moment he got here and it's painfully obvious if you're not investing hope in him.  But specifically in regard to the quarterbacks: abandoning the development of a QB prospect after four games is absolutely horse**** coaching.  That should be obvious.  Hinging a QB's job on not making mistakes to the media is horse**** coaching.  Also obvious.  Pinning the losses of a terrible team on the QB and saying the other guys played well enough to win is horse**** coaching.  Saying the rest of the roster was coming to him and complaining about the QB and potentially dividing your locker room by making guys wonder whose a snake is horse**** coaching.  Playing games with your QB and running little tests where you set him up to fail to see what he does both in games and in the media later on is horse**** coaching.  Abandoning long term building because "your gut told you to" is horse**** coaching.

 

Somebody called into a radio show yesterday, not sure which one, but they basically said that its a mixture of the power going to his head - he's never had this much power and we know that absolute power corrupts, but also that he's just insulting our intelligence in part because he doesn't have the checks and balances. I mean, its like why does it matter if I tell you the truth or tell you inconsistencies or admit inconsistencies? Who are you? He's got a guaraneed contract for what 5 mil? 6 mil? 7 mil? for how long? 5 years? 6 year? 7 years? 10 years? 

 

One thing Ron said is that what he tells the media is different from what he tells the players. God I hope this is true because what he's telling the media is a bunch of inconsistencies. If the players don't turn against him and they can rally behind Allen and this becomes a winning season, or next season becomes a winning season, or the season after, or some time in the near future, I guess we'll call this a success, right? 

 

People are saying never to pick the player over the coach (I think that was you @Skinsinparadise), but I look back at the RG3 debacle and people want to get on Robert. But lets look at Shanny and what he went through and why we turned on him.

 - He went 6-10 his first year and threw McNabb under the bus. Somebody leaked to the Junkies (I think it was EB) that he couldn't read his playsheet and wasn't studying. Then he benched McNabb for Rex. I'm going to guess the contract extension is not on him because of the dysfunction but he was the President, wasn't he?

 - Then he goes into the enxt year and goes 5-11 behind Rex and Beck. This was supposed to be the great savior of our franchise and through 2 years he had a worse record than Jim Zorn had. 

 - Then we draft Robert and we all remember New Orleans and that great game. But then we fall to 3-6 and we have Shanny openly saying that we're in evaluation mode or whatever he called it and fans, radio hosts and national personalilties were like WTF is he saying? Is he giving up on the season? Then we all remember the 7 game winning streak that took us to the playoffs. Was that behind Shanny or was that RG3? I give a lot more credit to RG3 because Shanny had openly given up on the season. 

 

This is the same team that won 6 of 8 games under a pathetic coach Jim Zorn behind Clinton Portis's running and rallying this team together in the season following Taylor's death. That same Portis who led this team to the playoffs in 2005 and 2007 behind winning streaks. I don't have to choose between Portis and Gibbs because Gibbs was a great coach who never threw Portis under the bus. But when Zorn pissed off Portis, he criticized Portis's practice habits, he divided the locker room, he stopped playing Portis and he lost 6 of the next 8 games. Portis said he would jump off the Empire state building for Gibbs, but not Zorn. 

 

All I'm saying is that how Ron handles players is very important. He made a point that you want to treat everybody equitably but you can't treat everybody the same. And my biggest beef with Ron is that he's not treating Haskins 'equitably' or fair. I'm not trying to say that Haskins's agent's tweet wasn't bad or that his conversation with Davis wasn't bad, but he went in fron of the media and blamed Haskins for losing 3 games in a row. He said its 52 against 1. He said you don't see the faces of the other guys who are trying to win, as if Haskins isn't. Its something that stunk to high hell for me and for all the stuff I hear about how great a person Ron is, this isn't something that made me think that about him. 

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/steve-smith-rips-dave-gettleman-ron-rivera-i-was-stabbed-in-the-back/

 

The new Ravens No. 1 wideout refrained from going after the Panthers at the podium after the game, but he didn't hold back on Wednesday during a WFNZ interview in Charlotte, when he absolutely uncorked on the Panthers, claiming he was "stabbed in the back" when he was released.

"Every time I keep reading stuff and reports come out, I just think I was stabbed in the back," Smith said. "Just like coach Rivera said he wasn't a sore loser, but yet he never even spoke to me through the whole ordeal. Not one time. He didn't look at me man-to-man and said this was going down. He said he's a players' coach but he never came in and said 'Hey Smitty, this is going on. Wanted to give you a heads up.' He hid in his office.

"Then you come at the end of the game and I play decent and then you come and shake my hand and say, 'Congratulations. I hope your family's well. Good luck.' But we were supposed to be boys and respected me. You would have done it from the jump. You don't do it at the end. And then you tell the media. Why? So you can look a certain way."

 

"I've always been a distraction? But I didn't hit my wife. Yeah I hit some teammates six or seven years ago but I didn't beat my wife," Smith said. "I didn't get arrested for DUIs. I didn't fall off no motorcycles ... All I did was charity work in Charlotte. I made mistakes. But building this big ole' crutch about it like as if I pushed their hand?

 

https://larrybrownsports.com/football/steve-smith-ron-rivera-hid-in-office/242883

“To build a case or leak stories that are inaccurate or that I forced something…” Smith said, via WFNZ’s Chris Kroeger. “That’s unfair. I never asked for a release. I wanted to play ball.”

 

 

 

[steven11]

Steve Smith was released because he was old

[Thinking Skins]

1 minute ago, steven11 said:

Steve Smith was released because he was old

But Smith commented on the leaks that came out about him and why they came out, trying to ruin his reputation. He was the player I heard about who went against the Ron is Great tide and its interesting why he was releases, particularly because the reports from Ron earlier was about how hard Steve practices, but when he was released he was a distraction. Then he goes to Baltimore and looks great

[KDawg]

Is an agent tweet a leak? Yes or no.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

Am I misremembering, or was Steve Smith's release all about friction between him and Dave Gettleman.  Gettleman asked him to take a paycut, Smith said no, anger ensued, and Gettleman cut him.  No anonymous leaks.  Gettleman publicly stated that the conversation went south and Smith asked him for a release.  Smith publicly stated that he never told Gettleman that, and he wanted to keep playing for the Panthers.  It's a whose side do you believe between the GM and Player.

 

No "leaks" when they aren't anonymous.  It was a pretty public spat right?  Am I misremembering?

[Est.1974]

33 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

but he went in fron of the media and blamed Haskins for losing 3 games in a row. He said its 52 against 1. He said you don't see the faces of the other guys who are trying to win, as if Haskins isn't.

I suspect the phrase needed to be ‘trying harder to win’ as opposed to ‘trying to win’.

 

I sure Haskins was trying. Maybe not just hard enough by successful NFL QB standards.

[Thinking Skins]

And while we're on the subject of coaches vs players and who to believe and leaks and all that. Lets bring up Desean Jackson. Everybody remember him? We signed him in 2014 and he had some really good years here under the Gruden System. 

 

Well, lets not forget that he was released by the Philadelphia Eagles and Chip Kelley. Now we know that Kelley is not Rivera but people were saying similar things when Kelley tried to smear Jackson's reputation. People were saying who are you going to believe, a coach who would obviously wouldn't release his best player or a player who's defending himself. If you don't remember this then look here https://www.nj.com/eagles/2014/03/eagles_desean_jackson_off-the-field_troubles.html and https://www.si.com/nfl/2014/04/02/richard-sherman-desean-jackson

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2014/03/desean-jackson-cut-by-eagles-minutes-after-report-about-possible-gang-ties-is-published/359832/

 

According to the report, the Eagles have become concerned by Jackson's friendships with some reputed members of the L.A.'s Crips gang. In 2010, an associate of Jackson's who worked for his "Jaccpot" rap label was arrested for a gang-related murder. To be clear, Jackson wasn't a suspect or witness to the crime and was not at all involved in the investigation, though police confirmed they did speak with him over the phone. And the associate was later acquitted of the murder charge. However, the friendship appeared to be cause for concern in the Eagles' front office.

 

In 2012, another gang-related murder occurred near an L.A. building that a member of Jackson's family owned or leased, LAPD detective Eric Crosson told NJ.com. A search of the place turned up some of Jackson's old receipts and gun permits. He was never considered a suspect in that case, either. 

 

Crosson does note, though, that Jackson has been seen in several photos with one of the murder suspects and flashes Crips gang signs in photos and in games. His "Jaccpot" rap label, Crosson argues, is spelled with two Cs on purpose to denote his Crips affiliation.

 

 

 

I remember those days very clearly because NOBODY on radio was defending Jackson except for Brian Mitchell and Doc Walker. In fact, that was the day that my disdain for Grant Paulsen and Danny Rougher was at its peak because they were making (bad) jokes about it and him as if it was a foregone conclusion. 

 

Here's Jackson's view of the events: 

 

https://6abc.com/sports/desean-jackson-not-in-a-gang/23830/

 

"Do I know people who are involved? Yes," he said. "I'm definitely aware of and know certain gang members.

"But as far as being affiliated, never have been in one. I've always felt I've been a product of my environment, but I've always felt I've wanted to do things the right way."

 

 

But at the time there were no reports against it, just stories that talked about these photos and his record label and him missing meetings. 

It is easy for these leaks to take over radio and media and become all that's discussed about a player for a period of time - true or not. So like I said, I'm of a perspective that I'd like to wait until we have something about Haskins from a source that we can discuss, not just rumors and speculation. If they're false (like they were for Jackson) who gets penalized? 
 

29 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Is an agent tweet a leak? Yes or no.

NO the agent tweet is not a leak and I think its a bad look, but not something that deserves the reply that he got that Wednesday. 

[GOATFrerotte]

15 hours ago, KDawg said:

Again, this thread is steering the wrong way (of course this is just my opinion). We have people diagnosing QBRs against a left handed defensive end who previously had a 97.6 pass rush grade from PFF and a SPARQ score of 175 with a standard deviation of 81.65.

 

But the conversation shouldn’t BE about play. It should be about maturity issues. Issues we can see with our eyes. **** the reports. I have eyes and they certainly work. So do my ears. The conversation with Thomas Davis was egregious in my opinion. But even if you don’t think so, the picture that’s posted here while acting as a backup to Keenum is huge, too. 
 

People shrug these things off. If you’re drafted by a regime a lot of that kind of thing can be overlooked (but I haven’t seen photos of any of the other young QBs doing that that I recall... literally any). But when you aren’t drafted by the regime it becomes a headache that they didn’t want to deal with to begin with.

 

Why is this shocking?

 

If you look at it strictly through an “on field lens” it doesn’t really make sense in a down year, even though his play was marginal at best. But it’s not just about play. 
 

So analyzing his play vs. other guys play is futile. 

 

I disagree. I think his play and stats on the field were the main driver of his benching. His maturity, lack of preparation and work ethic were the reason it was such a quick hook and demoted to 3rd string inactive. If he was playing better he wouldn't have been benched, imo. You can work on maturity issues with a good qb.

[KDawg]

6 minutes ago, GOATFrerotte said:

 

I disagree. I think his play and stats on the field were the main driver of his benching. His maturity, lack of preparation and work ethic were the reason it was such a quick hook and demoted to 3rd string inactive. If he was playing better he wouldn't have been benched, imo. You can work on maturity issues with a good qb.

I feel like this is obvious.

 

My point was his play was poor but if he was doing the things expected there’s no reason to sit him. He was sat down for factors outside of play.

[Skinsinparadise]

49 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

 

All I'm saying is that how Ron handles players is very important. He made a point that you want to treat everybody equitably but you can't treat everybody the same. And my biggest beef with Ron is that he's not treating Haskins 'equitably' or fair. I'm not trying to say that Haskins's agent's tweet wasn't bad or that his conversation with Davis wasn't bad, but he went in fron of the media and blamed Haskins for losing 3 games in a row. He said its 52 against 1. He said you don't see the faces of the other guys who are trying to win, as if Haskins isn't. Its something that stunk to high hell for me and for all the stuff I hear about how great a person Ron is, this isn't something that made me think that about him. 

 

 

 

If you are going to characterize Rivera's statements be fair versus just taking the harsher part of his statement. which he softened via the rest of what he said.  I am not sure what Rivera needs to do give Haskins a hug?  Jay for his faults was seen by most as a nice guy.  yet he was frustrated and said this about RG3:

 

"His footwork was below average," Gruden told reporters (h/t NFL.com's Dan Hanzus). "He took three-step drops when he should have taken five. He took a one-step drop when he should have taken three, on a couple occasions, and that can't happen. He stepped up when he didn't have to step up, and stepped into pressure. He read the wrong side of the field a couple times."

Gruden once said it was important for Washington to get a lead so Griffin didn't have to do a lot of dropback passing and reading of defenses. 

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2553631-nfl-head-coach-on-jay-gruden-leaving-rg3-in-game-it-looks-personal-to-me

 

 

 

Then we got the big bad cruel Ron Rivera 😁

 

https://richmond.com/sports/professional/phillips-dwayne-haskins-was-put-in-an-unfair-situation-but-his-benching-is-justified/article_8c63c383-4b63-5b58-831d-8b9c615f1523.html

“The one thing a lot of people don’t see is the frustration on the sidelines of the other players as well,” Rivera said. “I look at that and I see that. I feel that. The guys want to win. Right now, where his development is, I think our best shot to win now is with guys that have been in the system.”

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/football-team/ron-rivera-says-he-has-not-quit-dwayne-haskins-despite-benching

 

"Dwayne’s a young man that’s learning and growing. He hasn’t been in the system," Rivera said. "He hasn’t had the benefit of a full offseason. He hasn’t had the benefit of a true training camp. Based on what I saw, I made the decision to make the switch."

 

“I think our best chance to win is putting the ball in somebody else’s hands,” Rivera said Wednesday. “Dwayne needs some more work. He just hasn’t had enough work yet.”

 

 

"Again, as I said, I have not quit on the kid as far as his development," Rivera told reporters Wednesday. "This is an opportunity for him to continue to learn and grow and develop."

 

"The thing that we’ve done is we’ve looked at where we are and said: 'Hey, these guys give us a better chance to win right now because they know what we do, they understand the system and they’ve been in the system,'" Rivera said.

 

[GOATFrerotte]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

I feel like this is obvious.

 

My point was his play was poor but if he was doing the things expected there’s no reason to sit him. He was sat down for factors outside of play.

I don't know man. Bad play seems like a perfectly reasonable reason to sit a player. Especially if you believe what he says about the locker room wanting to win and him thinking he can win the division. If he didn't think Haskins gave him a chance to win because his play on the field and the stats he was putting up and he didn't believe he was putting in the work to improve those stats, then the benching makes sense. I think his play had more to do with it than anything else.

[Thinking Skins]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

If you are going to characterize Rivera's statements be fair versus just taking the harsher part of his statement. which he softened via the rest of what he said.  I am not sure what Rivera needs to do give Haskins a hug?  Jay for his faults was seen by most as a nice guy.  yet he was frustrated and said this about RG3:

 

Both are bad and both are examples of bad coaching. 

[mh86]

5 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

I think the weight thing is more of an American thing. Especially with the amount of coaching that's watching videos and sitting in meetings and just studying. I know from a desk job and the amount of time I spent in school, it was easy to put on weight. I had to get really disciplined about eating and then start a workout routine to merely stop gaining weight, and the weight loss thing is another step. I'd imagine its similar for coaches. 

 

What's interesting is watching coaches as they come into the league and go through their transition from a young skinny kid to an older bigger guy. Its especially true when you see somebody come in like at like 20 or who was a player at a skill position and then they're a coach not running or working out as much. 

Plus with years of playing in the nfl and working out, their bodies are probably beat to all hell. After 8 years in the Army my body doesn’t hold up quite the same and I cannot work out like I used to unfortunately. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

Both are bad and both are examples of bad coaching. 

 

Neither has anything to do with coaching but politics. 

 

Haskins isn't some fragile flower.  You don't think he can handle a coach saying, he wants to win now, Haskins hasn't had the benefit of the full off season and he wants to start a player who knows the system better at this time?  

 

I'll grant you that Rivera's true feelings is likely much harsher than this.  But my #1 thing for a head coach isn't about how good a public politician they are.   I want a coach that builds a culture and players respect.  And by most indications that's what's happening.  If I heard a mutiny like what's going on in Dallas that would sway me off of that.  

 

You seem to be locked into a pro Haskins bent no matter what happens and where the conversation goes like you are his press secretary.  For me,  I am open on Haskins pro or con.  When the narrative turned positive in the off season, I was positive. When the same old stories popped up again, I turned negative.  If I hear a story about Haskins that moves the story back the other way, I'll buy that too.  They know what's going in that building, I don't.  

 

I don't think Rivera has been the perfect politician explaining things.  But I genuinely don't really put a lot of stock in that as a key quality.  The dude that ended up a wiz at being a politician at the podium was ironically Jay Gruden.  Bruce would have gaffes, Doug would have his gaffes.  But Jay after a rough start was the ultimate smooth pollitican at the podium.  He rarely had a gaffe and was quick on his feet.  Not the best coach but he was a smooth politician at the podium. 

 

For me as for a HC, their political skills isn't high on my want list.  And I don't really care about coddiling any player.  I made that mistake with RG3, am not doubling down again here.  And for RG3 I actually believed in his skills and he at least had an unbelievable season so we had a sample size to sell.  I didn't believe in Haskins like that and we don't have a sample size to sell so it's much easier for me to move on.

 

[wit33]

43 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

If you are going to characterize Rivera's statements be fair versus just taking the harsher part of his statement. which he softened via the rest of what he said.  I am not sure what Rivera needs to do give Haskins a hug?  Jay for his faults was seen by most as a nice guy.  yet he was frustrated and said this about RG3:

 

"His footwork was below average," Gruden told reporters (h/t NFL.com's Dan Hanzus). "He took three-step drops when he should have taken five. He took a one-step drop when he should have taken three, on a couple occasions, and that can't happen. He stepped up when he didn't have to step up, and stepped into pressure. He read the wrong side of the field a couple times."

Gruden once said it was important for Washington to get a lead so Griffin didn't have to do a lot of dropback passing and reading of defenses. 

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2553631-nfl-head-coach-on-jay-gruden-leaving-rg3-in-game-it-looks-personal-to-me

 

 

 

Then we got the big bad cruel Ron Rivera 😁

 

https://richmond.com/sports/professional/phillips-dwayne-haskins-was-put-in-an-unfair-situation-but-his-benching-is-justified/article_8c63c383-4b63-5b58-831d-8b9c615f1523.html

“The one thing a lot of people don’t see is the frustration on the sidelines of the other players as well,” Rivera said. “I look at that and I see that. I feel that. The guys want to win. Right now, where his development is, I think our best shot to win now is with guys that have been in the system.”

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/football-team/ron-rivera-says-he-has-not-quit-dwayne-haskins-despite-benching

 

"Dwayne’s a young man that’s learning and growing. He hasn’t been in the system," Rivera said. "He hasn’t had the benefit of a full offseason. He hasn’t had the benefit of a true training camp. Based on what I saw, I made the decision to make the switch."

 

“I think our best chance to win is putting the ball in somebody else’s hands,” Rivera said Wednesday. “Dwayne needs some more work. He just hasn’t had enough work yet.”

 

 

"Again, as I said, I have not quit on the kid as far as his development," Rivera told reporters Wednesday. "This is an opportunity for him to continue to learn and grow and develop."

 

"The thing that we’ve done is we’ve looked at where we are and said: 'Hey, these guys give us a better chance to win right now because they know what we do, they understand the system and they’ve been in the system,'" Rivera said.

 

For me personally, I respect Jay’s approach much more due to speaking about a player directly (Coach to player) and not involving others/the team to prop up his position, but neither situation should have been aired out in the media in the way they were. 
 

I’m not in the position of panicking about Ron, but I have trended in direction of having concerns and questions while still realizing Ron will need this season to sort it all out. I’ve been surprised of his willingness to make excuses so early in the year and overall approach, but remain confident a cross over will take place with his expectations for the team, when he feels they’re ready. 
 

I hope we here some more positive things about Turner to close the year. I know you mentioned wanting to explore his schemes on your own, so I’ll look forward to seeing what you think. The outside consensus looks pretty bleak, but I do love the his run/pass variety on all downs. 

[D’Pablo]

While I like Allen and how he’s played, it’s tough for me to get behind Rivera with respect to his decision making. I don’t blame Allen as much for his turnovers, nor do I blame Haskins for his poor play when our coach, the de facto GM, built this roster so poorly. You have two young QBs, and you thought it best to go with a completely inexperienced blindside? No decent TEs? A first year OC? A teeny 3rd down back as your starter and blocker on many passing plays? One veteran starting WR? Many will claim we made some attempts in free agency to get better, but I’d argue that we should have “overpaid” to get the players we need. We now have a ton of cap space and no core to build around. I’m still trying to figure out why we gave full control (and then some) to someone who has lost more seasons than he’s won, at a 2:1 ratio.

[steven11]

Jay is the perfect example of nice but bad boss

[Skinsinparadise]

38 minutes ago, wit33 said:

For me personally, I respect Jay’s approach much more due to speaking about a player directly (Coach to player) and not involving others/the team to prop up his position, but neither situation should have been aired out in the media in the way they were. 

 

I work in a public eye profession where we got multiple people working for the candidate.  The candidate doesn't have to sanction leaks or even be a part of it.  All of us have our own contacts in the media and can leak something if we choose and the media would protect us as a source.

 

My point is from my own experience with the media and working with multiple people including factoring myself with our own media contacts -- the candidate on occasion are pushing the leaks but often the candidate has no idea that its happening.

 

So I am not running with the point that Rivera is leaking this stuff or asked others to leak it.  If anything I'd bet against it.