FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[KDawg]

22 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Fascinating that a prodigy from an early age has such terrible fundamentals as many of the more qualified football people on here and in the media continue to lament. 

 

How does a guy with NFL people in his life struggle so much with the fundamentals? It’s perplexing. I’m not talking game experience type stuff, just the overall feet work fundamentals. Strange. You’d think the feet work type stuff would be automatic with life long tutelage. 

 

Any answers?? 

Absolutely. He was always so much better than everyone else the details like that weren’t addressed. 
 

Chances are coaches attempted to fix it, he reverted/did it anyways, they won, and the coach looked the other way. “Why fix something that is working?” Would be a refrain that I think could be heard. 
 

I don’t think that it’s about Haskins not WANTING to improve. I’m willing to bet that he likely feels a little awkward doing things the correct way and he overthinks it and it just doesn’t feel right to him. So he goes with what he knows. 
 

So many young guys fall into that trap. Even kids who were studs in little league football/middle school do that. They didn’t care about fundamentals for so long that even when they want to learn them it’s ****ing hard. 
 

A lot of these guys who are just flat out better have that issue. 
 

But there are also a lot of guys who did it from the start and they don’t have that struggle. It’s really interesting to watch.

 

I don’t know Dwayne. And I could be wrong. I’m not at Skins practices, so maybe he’s further along than we think and the game speed of the NFL threw him off and he reverted. It’s all possible.

 

Just didn’t like what I saw mechanically in that small sample size.

[RandyHolt]

Callahan may be an idiot this is the week to start Haskins, and maintain our chances at the #1 overall. Get him experience vs the 2nd softest defense in the league and let Colt and Case heal.

Yes Colt went to the tent yesterday. I predicted that he got hurt when he hip fumbled but I am not sure when it was. 

[wit33]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

Absolutely. He was always so much better than everyone else the details like that weren’t addressed. 
 

Chances are coaches attempted to fix it, he reverted/did it anyways, they won, and the coach looked the other way. “Why fix something that is working?” Would be a refrain that I think could be heard. 
 

I don’t think that it’s about Haskins not WANTING to improve. I’m willing to bet that he likely feels a little awkward doing things the correct way and he overthinks it and it just doesn’t feel right to him. So he goes with what he knows. 
 

So many young guys fall into that trap. Even kids who were studs in little league football/middle school do that. They didn’t care about fundamentals for so long that even when they want to learn them it’s ****ing hard. 
 

A lot of these guys who are just flat out better have that issue. 
 

But there are also a lot of guys who did it from the start and they don’t have that struggle. It’s really interesting to watch.

 

I don’t know Dwayne. And I could be wrong. I’m not at Skins practices, so maybe he’s further along than we think and the game speed of the NFL threw him off and he reverted. It’s all possible.

 

Just didn’t like what I saw mechanically in that small sample size.

 

I grew up playing basketball and have coached for 10 plus years, and have worked with many youth develop various fundamentals, including their shooting. Thoughts on QB feet work and throwing to the different shot forms and feet work?

 

For example, the way Reggie Miller, Ray Allen, and Steph Curry all became the greatest shooters of all time required different fundamentals for them to achieve mastery for their respective shots. Fundamentalist would say Curry and Miller have bad fundamentals at certain stages of their shot, while Allen has almost perfect form. 

 

Are their similarities at the QB spot, in regards to a QB being able to achieve mastery without having picture perfect fundamentals?? 

 

I’ll throw this at @stevemcqueen1 @volsmet as well that appear to have a scout like understanding of the game. Missing a few others that I enjoy reading a more in-depth break down of player fundamentals. 

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

I grew up playing and have coached for 10 plus years, and have worked with many youth develop various fundamentals. Thoughts on QB feet work and throwing to the different shot forms and feet work?

 

For example, the way Reggie Miller, Ray Allen, and Steph Curry all became the greatest shooters of all time required different fundamentals for them to achieve mastery for their respective shots. Fundamentalist would say Curry and Miller have bad fundamentals at certain stages of their shot, while Allen has almost perfect form. 

 

 

So, my opinion: There are variances in "good form". Always will be. Anatomically everyone is different. 

 

But throwing a boot pass, on the run, with feet and shoulders parallel to the line of scrimmage and jumping while you throw are never good form.

 

Variation is normal. Mahomes doesn't look like Brady. Brady doesn't look like Rodgers. But they all have the basics of footwork down: Base, presence and follow through.

 

But it's all variations of the same basics. 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

30 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I don’t know Dwayne. And I could be wrong. I’m not at Skins practices, so maybe he’s further along than we think and the game speed of the NFL threw him off and he reverted. It’s all possible.

 

Just didn’t like what I saw mechanically in that small sample size.

 

I'm ready to throw out his mid-game relief work from the sample.  He comes in without mentally prepping to start, his adrenaline has to be through the roof, the offense as a whole was struggling against their defense so he knows he has to do more himself.  He comes in, the offense is still not clicking, so he's desperate to make plays...so he reverts a bit to backyard football trying to make plays happen and push things.

 

I will be shocked if Haskins isn't starting.  Callahan's press conference was just about a "I'm saying the opposite of what everyone expects."

 

[Going Commando]

6 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Are their similarities at the QB spot, in regards to a QB being able to achieve mastery without having picture perfect fundamentals??  

 

I really like your comparison to the various jump shot mechanics of great NBA shooters.  When you get to the level of a Steph Curry or Reggie Miller or Larry Bird, repeatability doesn't matter as much.  In game situaions they're creating shots on the move and from all kinds of spots, release points, and angles.  At that point it becomes more about having an incredible and organic "feel for the ball in your hand."  I don't really know how else to describe it.  The ball is an extension of their bodies and they can make the ball do whatever they want.

 

I think it's similar for top level throwers like the best NFL QBs in today's NFL.  15-20 years ago rigid, mechanical timing passing was the norm.  But passing was also far worse throughout the league and collegiate levels.  Technicians like Carson Palmer aren't the best players at the position any more.  Everyone coming into the NFL can spin it pretty now and go through a throwing session where they stay on balance against air.  Pat Mahomes, Russell Wilson, DeShaun Watson, Aaron Rodgers, etc. these guys are arming dimes with whatever platform they can get to, square to the line sometimes, or off balance, inside or outside the pocket, on whatever step or whatever foot, at whatever arm slot.  It's next level passing and it's dynamic.  The kind of basic mechanical balance of finishing the drop parallel to the sideline then stepping into the throw to get the hip torque and leading the receiver with your front foot will help anyone deliver a good pass.  What separates the elites is the ability to make throws like this:

 

I talked about this a couple of days ago in the draft thread, but I recently watched a replay of a 2004 game between Oregon and Cal and it had me cracking up to see the style of play.  The change away from it has been gradual to the point where you don't really notice it, but going back to see where passing was at that time, it feels like you might as well be watching footage from the 60's.  Quintessential Jeff Tedford taught quarterbacking.  Aaron Rodgers taking the most robotic drop and hitch steps you've ever seen.  Almost to the point that it looks like he's being digitally controlled.  ****ing the ball right beside his ear-hole immediately after he receives the snap to shorten the release.  That was quarterbacking according to the old textbook mechanics.  Aaron Rodgers proceeded to get to the NFL and then douse that textbook in gasoline and set it on fire.  It's amazing to see the transition he made from that point to what he became in the NFL.

 

So to answer your question, yes I think mechanical precision is overblown as a complaint against top notch NFL QBs and QB prospects.  These guys get amazing coaching--NFL level quarterbacks coaches are awesome--and focusing on mechanics is as much about getting back to the basics to change your headspace when your passing game falls out of sync as anything.  That's something that happens to even the best quarterbacks from time to time.

[Skinsinparadise]

I am ok with everything said there.   Does this mean Riddick has backed off his stance of not playing Haskins?  I haven't watched NFL live yet but have it recorded. 

 

 

 

[volsmet]

Many of those, who are more accurate when fundamentals break down, are guys who were great at baseball or basketball growing up; the touch and arm slots necessary to make different shots & throw across a diamond are invaluable to guys like Murray. Those guys have made the throw from ss 9,000,000 times, throws charging the ball in practice & throwing side arm 5,000,000 times - it’s a different sort of kinematic & kinetic coordination.

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Does this mean Riddick has backed off his stance of not playing Haskins?  

 

 

Riddick thinks DH needs snaps now? 

 

 

[RandyHolt]

Is there any way he can be used effectively with his poor mechanics? I am assume so, but how.  We have been told he cannot run but seems to move around pretty good to me. If its solely mechanics holding him back maybe its a blessing he barely played, as those poor habits may not be deeply entrenched.

 

I wonder if the plan will be to commit to a run game, and then only once successful for multiple games, will we see Haskins again.

[KDawg]

I agree with @stevemcqueen1 in that mechanics at the NFL level are often overblown, simply because coaching generally takes care of that pretty quickly.

 

Which is why Haskins mechanics concern me. 

Haskins mechanical issues aren’t the same as other guys... he doesn’t use his body as a tool and often works against it (like the aforementioned boot pass example I listed above)

 

But to be clear, if at the NFL level he could throw the ball while doing a handstand on top of a lineman and put points on the board you wouldn’t hear **** about his mechanics. The fact that he hasn’t done that is why it gets emphasized. Having said that, when he is calm in the pocket and not overthinking he threw a few gems in preseason. I’m more concerned when he’s facing pressure.

 

As far as him not being able to run, I think that point got lost in translation. Dude is athletic. He can move a little. But his lack of movement was generally how people referred to his pocket movement, especially laterally and up. Actual running ability he has, but he prefers to be a passer. Which is one of the reasons I initially liked him.

[volsmet]

15 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Is there any way he can be used effectively with his poor mechanics? I am assume so, but how.  We have been told he cannot run but seems to move around pretty good to me. If its solely mechanics holding him back maybe its a blessing he barely played, as those poor habits may not be deeply entrenched.

 

I wonder if the plan will be to commit to a run game, and then only once successful for multiple games, will we see Haskins again.

 

The mechanics are only a big deal because they cause his issues with accuracy. He may adjust to the speed of the game and be able to complete a high % when his mechanics aren’t sound, but right now he’s missing throws, in games, that he makes routinely in 7 v 7, because he’s not repeating his steps which creates a wider variance in the results of his throws. These are things we talked about extensively in the draft thread, he may be able to play just fine as he is, but he needs the reps to see and feel the throws over and over and over. 

 

With his athleticism the issue is how quickly he resets himself, he can move decently, but moving to throw can give him problems... he tends to need to reload because he’ll collapse his feet on top of one another and, even if he pulls the trigger from that base, it’s unlikely to be accurate. He struggles getting his hips wide left, he completed a pass to Quinn that wasn’t particularly accurate, another pass that caused a wide open wr to go to the ground, and missed Vernon for an easy td. He could rep his way through those things, it would just be a lot easier with another 5,000 yards in college than it is in the nfl. He can make a beautiful touch pass where his body sinks and he creates momentum for the throw from his hips up & he may not follow throw...he may leave his elbow low & still make the most beautiful pass you’ve ever seen ... and the next time he may leave a wheel short because he does something slightly different and the momentum doesn’t quite get through his throw ... these things are what coaches preach mechanics for, less margin for error through the throw, less to sort out on a miss. It’s a matter, for coaches, of eliminating variables from snap to pass - complementing his mind & talent. He just doesn’t have the reps. He has more spectacular throws than just about anyone, but then he’ll miss an easy one by more than anyone. 

 

He doesn’t need to get it perfect, he does need to play football though. Playing & then studying himself has been the path I’ve wanted since we drafted him, patience and thorough film study ... a week of working on what happened in the previous game, and then prep for the next start.

 

 

[profusion]

This all kind of reminds me of what Josh Allen went through when he started with the Bills. Big-armed but raw QB. Allen started part-way through his rookie season last year and had a lot of ups and downs, but he's starting to look better now, I believe.

 

I just don't see a lot of downside to starting Haskins now. It's not like either his footwork or the offensive line are going to be massively better two or three weeks from now. Get him out there on the field with a reduced playbook that he can run. And yes, a run-heavy offense would benefit him right now.

[volsmet]

2 minutes ago, profusion said:

This all kind of reminds me of what Josh Allen went through when he started with the Bills. Big-armed but raw QB. Allen started part-way through his rookie season last year and had a lot of ups and downs, but he's starting to look better now, I believe.

 

I just don't see a lot of downside to starting Haskins now. It's not like either his footwork or the offensive line are going to be massively better two or three weeks from now. Get him out there on the field with a reduced playbook that he can run. And yes, a run-heavy offense would benefit him right now.

 

There is a lot more that can go wrong from under center, which is what I imagine our innovative young coach wants to do. 

 

 

[KDawg]

Depends who you ask on Josh Allen. I live in Bills land. Consume a lot of their media. Surrounded by their fans...

 

They all like Allen and think he’s the best QB they’ve had in a long time. But they are very concerned with his ability to make routine plays turn into turnovers and force throws. He also takes off running first and asks questions later after attempting to truck a linebacker or two.

 

They have different issues, but Allen was a bit further along last year mechanically than Haskins is. 
 

I still think Haskins ceiling is higher, though.

[volsmet]

Ugly from Jimmy

 

 

[profusion]

8 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Depends who you ask on Josh Allen. I live in Bills land. Consume a lot of their media. Surrounded by their fans...

 

They all like Allen and think he’s the best QB they’ve had in a long time. But they are very concerned with his ability to make routine plays turn into turnovers and force throws. He also takes off running first and asks questions later after attempting to truck a linebacker or two.

 

They have different issues, but Allen was a bit further along last year mechanically than Haskins is. 
 

I still think Haskins ceiling is higher, though.

 

I really haven't had much of a chance to see Allen play, since Bills games are rarely shown here in DC. He did have two years as a starter at Wyoming, so it's not surprising he was a little ahead of where Haskins is now. But all I ever heard around him at draft was how raw and unfinished he was.

 

Seems like the Bills and their fans are having patience with Allen. Which is what we'll need here in Skins Land if Haskins starts anytime soon. He's going to make a lot of mistakes, and we're not going to be "close" for a couple years, probably.

[DavidK]

The Redskins are 0-5.   The season is basically over for Washington.   All they are playing for now is a high 1st Round Pick in the Draft.    That means losing games.

Dwayne Haskins is the Redskins quarterback of the future according to Gruden and other Coaches on the team.   If I was the Head Coach (interim) I would be playing 

Haskins in the 2nd Half of these upcoming games.   No better way to learn when you are on the job.   This is the perfect scenario for Haskins to be learning his position

since the team is out of the playoff picture.   Put him in the 2nd half of games when the opponents defense is a little tired.   Gruden was horrible at training rookies and he 

mostly refused to play them.   How does a player show his skills if he doesn't get in the game?   In closing, Haskins needs to play.   There are players on this team who have 

attitude problems.   Those players need to be weeded out.   The fans watch the games.   The players are not motivated.   The players are playing like its preseason.   Gruden

never had control of this team.   The Head Coach is the leader, the trainer, the teacher, the motivator, the game planner.    If he doesn't accept those responsiblities then he shouldn't 

be Coaching in the NFL.   Jay Gruden was lacking in most areas.   He was especially bad at play calling.   Don't you just get sick of watching the same 5 plays on offense.  

The new Head Coach needs to look at film from the Redskins glory years and learn how to play football, learn how to mix up the plays, learn how to change momentum.   

The Head Coach has to be constantly aware of player management and be sure to get playing time for every player.   When the game has been decided, its time to get playing time

for inexperienced players.     

[DJHJR86]

Virtually every former player (Smoot, Springs, Cooley, Portis, Hall) who is still somewhat associated with the team has came out and said Haskins should sit for either the majority or all of the season.  Smoot, Springs, and Portis bang the drum that if they start Haskins now, the "fans will turn on him".  Meaning he will suck.  Badly.  And that's why they don't want him to play.  Which is mind boggling to me.  He was taken 15th overall.  Either the Skins "done messed up" and shouldn't have drafted him, OR he's so soft that starting in his rookie season would damage his psyche.  

[Skinsinparadise]

The irony as I said yesterday, probably the nicest comment about Haskins coming from the team is from Jay himself. 

 

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27795536/jay-gruden-laments-injuries-lack-total-say-washington-redskins-tenure

There were also multiple reports about Gruden's preference for another player in the draft at pick No. 15, rather than quarterback Dwayne Haskins. Gruden wasn't alone on the Redskins' football side in thinking that it would take Haskins a while to get ready to start in the NFL, which is why Callahan said Monday that Haskins will remain on the bench for the time being.

On Friday, Gruden told ESPN, "If you haven't done it, there's a lot on your plate. Until he gets really comfortable, it's for his own good. If I didn't like him, I'd put him out there right now. I do like him. I think the world of him. He's going to be a great quarterback one day. Time is really important for him."

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27793050/redskins-not-changing-stance-dwayne-haskins-jay-gruden-firing

Callahan said the goal is to develop Haskins, not rush him into playing. He also said there's a chance Haskins won't be active on game days.

 

...The Redskins have been working with Haskins on various aspects of the position to get him ready to play, from footwork on various pass drops to calling plays in the huddle and also reading defenses at a faster pace. They meet with him early in the morning and then again after group meetings later in the day. Haskins watches extra film at home as well. Gruden said recently that they had packages Haskins could run when he played.

 

The Redskins have said since the draft that it would take him time because he had started only 14 games at Ohio State. Callahan knows what he wants to see from Haskins before deeming him ready.

"Continuation of preparation of focus," Callahan said, "having success on the field, having confidence on the field. Getting his confidence level up. So he has a package that he can, obviously, go out and execute. And know they are his and he has ownership on the plays. That's the focus right now. Get him up, get him rolling. Just like we do with Case and Colt, no different."

[RandyHolt]

I fear if we sit Haskins to learn, his development will be progressing at a snails pace, if at all. And we won't be able to measure it accurately.  The draft will quickly be upon us, Bruce smiling with the 2nd rounder he got for Trent from the super bowl champs, but the jury will still be out on Haskins.

We need to see if Haskins can improve on his mechanics vs live fire, not in practice when he and all QBs are fearless. 

 

I have said many times it will not ruin a young QB to find ways to get him snaps, and then reel them back in. Spot starts, ends of blowouts etc - no it is not benching him.  Even though many players in all sports can get benched at one point or another, and seem no worse for wear. Especially when the coach tells them the plan, and said person knows they are as raw as can be.  So I now officially endorse the @volsmet plan of letting him start a game and then sit. It will never happen of course, because Cally is old school (and thus presumed stiff), and its just too radical of an approach.  But it would give him the perfect amount of time between development tests, lets call them. The season, at some point, needs to be about Haskins. That point should be at THE latest, when we are eliminated, which should be in about 3 weeks.

 

Maybe Cally can pull a rabbit out of his ass and start running successfully all of a sudden, which then gives him no reason to continue to sit Haskins. 

 

 

[dballer]

1 hour ago, DJHJR86 said:

Virtually every former player (Smoot, Springs, Cooley, Portis, Hall) who is still somewhat associated with the team has came out and said Haskins should sit for either the majority or all of the season.  Smoot, Springs, and Portis bang the drum that if they start Haskins now, the "fans will turn on him".  Meaning he will suck.  Badly.  And that's why they don't want him to play.  Which is mind boggling to me.  He was taken 15th overall.  Either the Skins "done messed up" and shouldn't have drafted him, OR he's so soft that starting in his rookie season would damage his psyche.  

 

Solid thinking. If they keep starting Colt and Case, and Bruce Allen is still here next year, there won’t be any fans left that care to turn on him. 😂

 

 

[DJHJR86]

4 minutes ago, dballer said:

Solid thinking. If they keep starting Colt and Case, and Bruce Allen is still here next year, there won’t be any fans left that care to turn on him. 😂

 

I don't think fans would turn on him, even if he sucked.  They didn't do it with Campbell until year 3 or 4.  Griffin was "turned on" by fans because of the behind the scenes stories and leaks, as well as the holier than thou attitude he displayed.  Haskins has not come across as self-indulgent like Griffin.  I think fans recognize the reality of the situation and would be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.  And I think the anger would be more directed at Allen/Snyder for meddling and drafting a QB who clearly is a massive project in the first round.  

[dballer]

7 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

I don't think fans would turn on him, even if he sucked.  They didn't do it with Campbell until year 3 or 4.  Griffin was "turned on" by fans because of the behind the scenes stories and leaks, as well as the holier than thou attitude he displayed.  Haskins has not come across as self-indulgent like Griffin.  I think fans recognize the reality of the situation and would be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.  And I think the anger would be more directed at Allen/Snyder for meddling and drafting a QB who clearly is a massive project in the first round.  

 

100%.

 

Especially when the team in general already sucks. Like, I think the majority of fans EXPECT him to suck to an extent.

 

Also, the dummies that would turn on him so quickly are already doing it anyways because they are “hearing” he is nowhere close to being ready. 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

I don't think fans would turn on him, even if he sucked.  They didn't do it with Campbell until year 3 or 4.  Griffin was "turned on" by fans because of the behind the scenes stories and leaks, as well as the holier than thou attitude he displayed.  Haskins has not come across as self-indulgent like Griffin.  I think fans recognize the reality of the situation and would be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.  And I think the anger would be more directed at Allen/Snyder for meddling and drafting a QB who clearly is a massive project in the first round.  

 

I disagree in a way here...

 

I don't think a lot of fans will "turn on him" if he sucks. But this situation is different. If he stinks, the Skins will be in position to choose a quarterback very high in next year's draft. We never had that with Campbell or Griffin. Patience when you're showing some competency is one thing, patience when you're not shown a thing is another. 

 

Haskins is in a bad situation. He doesn't really have time. Or, better stated, he shouldn't. I think the next HC will be told he has to have Haskins on the roster regardless. So my point is moot. But Haskins was done a real disservice when he got drafted to DC instead of, say, New England or Green Bay, etc. Lame duck coach means a new regime the following season. 

 

This was a bad spot for the kid to land, unfortunately. 

 

I think to sum up my thoughts, the fans will use his name when they vent about him stinking the joint up... but, I don't think it's *him* that they're frustrated with. Iit's the front office for putting the team in such a poor spot.

[dballer]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I disagree in a way here...

 

I don't think a lot of fans will "turn on him" if he sucks. But this situation is different. If he stinks, the Skins will be in position to choose a quarterback very high in next year's draft. We never had that with Campbell or Griffin. Patience when you're showing some competency is one thing, patience when you're not shown a thing is another. 

 

Haskins is in a bad situation. He doesn't really have time. Or, better stated, he shouldn't. I think the next HC will be told he has to have Haskins on the roster regardless. So my point is moot. But Haskins was done a real disservice when he got drafted to DC instead of, say, New England or Green Bay, etc. Lame duck coach means a new regime the following season. 

 

This was a bad spot for the kid to land, unfortunately. 

 

I think to sum up my thoughts, the fans will use his name when they vent about him stinking the joint up... but, I don't think it's *him* that they're frustrated with. Iit's the front office for putting the team in such a poor spot.

 

Was thinking about this drafting a QB again thing...I don’t think you do it regardless. If you end up with a top pick you take a Chase Young or an Andrew Thomas. Or trade back for a haul. Start Haskins all year next year. New HC gets some slack in year one with a new QB.  If he stinks, we stink and have another top pick. Trevor Lawrence anyone?