FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[volsmet]

1 minute ago, wit33 said:

 

With trepidation, I must report feeling when watching Mahomes he’s not as comfortable looking with the ordinary/rhythm type throws and Reid does a great job of mixing in a lot LOS type throws to establish rhythm for Mahomes. 

 

For example, I wouldn’t be shocked if Mahomes struggles with timing type throws or the chronicled our route throw to davis made by Haskins. 

 

Anyone feel free to trash this, as I’m just basing this off of memory and a few games of watching Mahomes.  

The first time I watched Mahomes he wasn’t in any mock drafts, I mentioned him to several people who make a lot of money working in the nfl & they said he was not a pro prospect, the kind of guy that costs people their jobs in the nfl. That opinion changed as he showed more and had private workouts, but some still thought he was too inconsistent & wouldn’t be a guy you could rely on to run an offense in the nfl. We’re all a work in progress, constantly. If there was a single, true, expert, with any power, Mahomes would have gone #1... there was no price to steep to get him. Nobody wanted him all that badly... and he was the best QB most of us have ever seen in his first year starting, everyone missed it to varying extents. 

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The Knoblauch reference is painful for a Yankee fan like me.   Steve Sax would be another one  

 

 

I’m still waiting on my Kevin Mass rookie card to go up in value.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, volsmet said:

 

I’m still waiting on my Kevin Mass rookie card to go up in value.

 

 

 

Kevin Mass that goes way back.  I can go back further with Dan Pasqua.  😀  I used to collect baseball cards, too.  Sold my collection for about $3000.  In retrospect, I should have held on to them and sold them for much more.   

[volsmet]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

My concern about DH was some of the throws I saw him miss, he missed them consistently.   The throws that were right in front of him, in between the numbers, 5-10 yard range he was really accurate.  That looked like his wheel house.  The out routes including short ones in the flat -- to say he was inconsistent would be a complement.  He really struggled with them.    And he threw a ton of picks.

 

I'll be honest.  I've been so back and forth on Haskins.  Watching him in real time on TV, I liked him in college.     Studying him (partly because of your prompting) I got down on him.   Watching him in camp, I wasn't sure what to make of him the player but loved the dude so that made me positive.    

That’s the struggle for all scouts/coaches - people see the brilliance, then the struggles, and wonder if it will click ... will a guy be Bortles or Goff. People still have wildly different opinions on Winston ... Jimmy G, even young Baker has gone from a sleeper mvp to a guy certain people would trade for Daniel Jones. You can’t know, you can only evaluate & attempt to be objective. Haskins could end up anywhere from a top 5 QB in the league to a journeyman backup... will he get enough opportunity, will coaches let him throw enough with his unorthodox mechanics to find consistency as he is, will he be protected, will he have someone make a game changing play that gets him a win on a night he struggles... there are a million question marks, but we know he’s got the talent & we know that this is what he’s wanted to do since he was 5... he’s a QB at heart, I love that about him, we just need to let him fling the damn ball around so he can apply that experience to his next step.  
 

^
Longest sentence ever written award 🥇 

 

 

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Kevin Mass that goes way back.  I can go back further with Dan Pasqua.  😀  I used to collect baseball cards, too.  Sold my collection for about $3000.  In retrospect, I should have held on to them and sold them for much more.   

I absolutely loved collecting cards, but as I got older I’d give my better cards to friends who had kids & couldn’t afford the older cards their kids wanted. 

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, volsmet said:

 I love that about him, we just need to let him fling the damn ball around so he can apply that experience to his next step.  
 

 

Agree.  And for me the idea that Tua might be available makes me antsy to see some Haskins soon.  

 

You are much more a QB mechanics guy than me.   My small dose of it is watching Peyton specials on you tube and reading Arians' book. 😀   What do you make of Paul Troth's (a QB coach who knows Haskins) comment to Finaly of he'd wait two more weeks before Haskins plays and not play him now, prepare him to play that game in 2 weeks, and if he doesn't seem ready at this stage then that might be telling.    

 

Doesn't that seem premature or am I missing the plot behind that comment?

[PiLfan]

 

[PartyPosse]

3 hours ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

I was thinking that this team is a 4-12 or 5-11 at best team, and that it would be so Redskins that we actually eek out 4 or 5 wins this year to screw up our draft position.  But then I checked out the schedule.  Honestly, aside from the Dolphins and Jets, there isn't a team on the schedule that I could see us realistically beating.  

Honestly, I think the jets are a much better team than what they’ve shown, but not having Darnold hurts killed them. But that defense; with the additions of Mosley and Johnson plus Quinnen is starting to get going, i expect them to beat us pretty easily.

[KDawg]

So watching that video, a few things stood out:

 

-First read arrows, second read drags are bread and butter passes for him. He completes them in his sleep. 

-He does that jumping throw thing entirely too often. And he contorts his body in strange ways to do it.

-He stands well in the pocket, even under pressure. Sometimes too well. But he hangs in there. 

-His "Pressure clock" is a mixed bag. Sometimes he has absolutely no idea someone is bearing down, sometimes he feels it and gets out and looks great doing so.

-His slide game needs work  

-He doesn't let his feet get set very often, but typically when he does he seems to throw a much better ball.

-He has this odd throwing pattern when he drops his front foot to be even with his back foot before the release. He's not putting his feet in position to throw to the target. Especially on throws to the left. 

-I'm not sure I saw him progress passed his second read one time in any of those throws. And he got to his second read very few times.

-Weird habit of letting his front shoulder fall even before he delivers a pass

-Good escape speed when the pocket breaks down

 

From the Giants game, I didn't see much different than from preseason. Happy feet in the pocket, jumping throws, body contortions. 
 

He throws from his front foot and throws the ball in the dirt, he throws from his back foot and air mails it... he needs to distribute his weight better as he gets ready to deliver. Weight slight back but not far enough back that your front foot comes off the ground. 

 

He can improve. You saw some nice stuff from him on some of those throws. Did some things that you really like to see from a playmaker.

 

[wit33]

 

Now break this down, if up for it. @KDawg

 

 

 

[RandyHolt]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Kevin Mass that goes way back.  I can go back further with Dan Pasqua.  😀  I used to collect baseball cards, too.  Sold my collection for about $3000.  In retrospect, I should have held on to them and sold them for much more.   

 

Joe Lefebvre says hello!

[KDawg]

@wit33

 

Right off the bat, first throw... You see his pocket presence. His feet aren't as "happy" as Haskins. Breaks the pocket, eyes downfield, sets himself and delivers a pass that goes for a TD. 

 

Great weight distribution. 

 

Keeps his eyes downfield every time the pocket breaks down. 

 

Throws off of his back foot at times, but his arm strength and accuracy allow him to do it. 

 

Uses his legs to generate power into his throw by setting his shoulders to his target. So even when he does the contortionist stuff, he's got his hips in the throw.

 

Has a very good feel for defenses and their coverage/blitzes. On the plays where he bails, you can see how he knows the pressure is coming before it even gets passed the LOS and he reacts accordingly. 

 

Whoever that kid is... he's gonna be a damn good NFL QB.

[kfrankie]

2 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

My thing with Haskins was it appeared through reports he’s been groomed to play QB much of his life and the added benefit (maybe) of Shawn Springs (not a huge on radio Springs fan, due to his logic not adding up for me often times— I have zero authority on the subject) helping to guide his path. It seemed (I don’t know) he was in position to receive the type of coaching the “normal” high school QB doesn’t get and that you talk about. 

 

If he did receive coaching from top level coaches, can he still become great with imperfect mechanics?

 

So Haskins' coach while at Bullis was Pat Cilento.  Cilento was an excellent High School quarterback and went on to play at division I-AA I believe after taking a hiatus or transfer.  He probably received better coaching than the vast majority of HS quarterbacks, but who knows how much time Cilento really dedicated to this type of work.  Again, you need more than one coach to implement a "pro style" passing offense, plus time, plus the horses.  And its not necessary to win in HS.  Big passing numbers in HS are often the result of speed at the split end and RB positions.  Short passes end up going 40 yards.  I can't say that's what happened with Haskins, but I doubt his HS experience provides much of a benefit at this level.

[KDawg]

7 minutes ago, kfrankie said:

 

So Haskins' coach while at Bullis was Pat Cilento.  Cilento was an excellent High School quarterback and went on to play at division I-AA I believe after taking a hiatus or transfer.  He probably received better coaching than the vast majority of HS quarterbacks, but who knows how much time Cilento really dedicated to this type of work.  Again, you need more than one coach to implement a "pro style" passing offense, plus time, plus the horses.  And its not necessary to win in HS.  Big passing numbers in HS are often the result of speed at the split end and RB positions.  Short passes end up going 40 yards.  I can't say that's what happened with Haskins, but I doubt his HS experience provides much of a benefit at this level.

 

That's where the basics really should be set. And I'm willing to bet his coach attempted to do it, but Dwayne fell to what he was comfortable with. And just like steve and volsmet said above, if it works, why harp on it and fix it? 

 

I guarantee his HS coach tried his damndest to get him to be better mechanically... But there's only so much you can tell a kid when the crazy stuff he's doing is working. 

[TSO]

On 10/7/2019 at 11:09 AM, Alcoholic Zebra said:

Callahan last called plays for Dallas back in 2013.  He was with them in 2012 and 2014, but didn't call plays in those years. 

 

Here's where Dallas ranked offensively in 2013.

Total

16th in Yards

5th in Points

Rushing

31st in Attempts

24th in Yards

18th in Touchdowns

8th in Yards/Attempt

Passing

13th in Attempts

14th in Yards

3rd in Touchdowns

10th in Interceptions

13th in Net-Yards/Attempt

 

Here's what Dallas did on 1st Downs, for Quarters 1, 2, and 3 (so avoiding running the ball to drain the clock).

Callahan had them pass on 55.9% of 1st down plays.  Which in 2013, was good for 4th highest rate in the league.

Jay Gruden in 2019, had the Redskins pass on 46.6% of 1st down plays, which so far this season, is the 22nd highest rate.

 

TL;DR:  If Haskins does become the starter, it seems likely Callahan will use him.  The offense is likely going to be more pass heavy.

 

On 10/7/2019 at 11:43 AM, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

Yup, and honestly I just assumed he'd be run heavy as well.  I was surprised at the numbers when I went looking for them.  It's not like DeMarco Murray wasn't effective, in 2013 he was averaging 5.2 yards per carry.  But Callahan called other plays.

 

Hmm, on 2nd down (excluding no yardage gained on 1st down, and excluding the 4th quarter) here's how often Callahan ran the ball:

Between 7-9 yards to gain - Ran the ball 30.2% of the time

Between 4-6 yards to gain - Ran 36.2% (league average was 47.4%)

Between 1-3 yards to gain - Ran 63.3% (league average was 67.3%)

 

Something to note, that Dallas offense was money on 2nd down between 4-6 yards to go.  They average 9.9 yards gained per play, that was 2nd in the league, and the league average was 6.6 yards gained.

 

The trend also continues, Dallas's offense on 2nd down in the 1-3 yard range gained 8.5 yards per play.  That's double the league average of 4.25 yards gained in that situation.

 

I wish I had play-action numbers I can look through, because I'm guessing that's why Dallas's offense was so explosive on 2nd-and-short and 2nd-and-medium.

Interesting stuff for sure, and thanks for taking the time to research it and post.

 

But I don’t think you can take much of anything away from these numbers in terms of what Callahan is going to do, especially regarding the passing game. At least not with a giant asterisk. 
 

Why? Because he had Tony Romo at QB, who was an audible king. And he seemed to audible more and more with every season under his belt.

 

I wouldn’t be shocked if a very significant amount of those plays Callahan called were changed by Tony. Could easily swing all those percentages you listed above by 10% or more. That’s not even mentioning the fact that Tony alone would be a good reason to call more passing plays. 

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

51 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Now break this down, if up for it. @KDawg

 

From what I see, this kid’s going to be pretty good.

[volsmet]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Agree.  And for me the idea that Tua might be available makes me antsy to see some Haskins soon.  

 

You are much more a QB mechanics guy than me.   My small dose of it is watching Peyton specials on you tube and reading Arians' book. 😀   What do you make of Paul Troth's (a QB coach who knows Haskins) comment to Finaly of he'd wait two more weeks before Haskins plays and not play him now, prepare him to play that game in 2 weeks, and if he doesn't seem ready at this stage then that might be telling.    

 

Doesn't that seem premature or am I missing the plot behind that comment?

That’s where we all should be, imo. The more data the better, I want as much as possible, we don’t care what it says, we just apply our findings.

 

I see people hold on to their evaluations out of pride — I’m not talking about here where it’s more like friends just giving one another a hard time or knocking a few back ... having some fun touting our picks or debating — but rather those with in positions of some influence. All of us look back at who we were 10 years ago and wish we knew then what we know now - in all aspects of our lives; 7 years, 5 years, 3 years, even 1 year ago... everyone who invests their time wishes they could apply their current knowledge to past scenarios/evaluations/etc - so it really makes little, rational, sense to hold on to the value of any past evaluation, whether it be right or wrong, when the ultimate goal is not to be the same person you were who made that evaluation. You can’t gain more from being correct than from being incorrect, we have irrational relationships with our past selves & it often proves costly ... we want to prove that past was right, on some level, and it becomes very limiting. That rambling is all to say, everyone who wants more data is eager to see DH play... some only want to confirm their hot takes — either that he’s amazing or awful — but all that really matters is collecting the data & investing it in either moving on from or sticking with DH. Each start we get gives us a new starting point in that process, until then... we have nothing meaningful & speculation that continues to grow irrationally negative, which is irrationally frustrating.

 

I don’t dislike the idea of letting a veteran handle the first couple games after a coaching transition. Losing the teams leader is an uncomfortable dynamic to put on any qb, now each vet has a bit more responsibility & that seems a fine role for Colt or Case over the next 2 weeks. I don’t think Haskins would embarrass himself if you put him out there now, he’s too gifted, but waiting until the 2nd half makes sense.

 

DH isn’t going to make the changes, mechanically, until he plays. He can do everything scripted, he needs to keep seeing the results & how his feet/mind respond to live nfl action. It’s not too big for him, he just needs to have decent protection and to get as many reps as possible. When he gets used to the speed, they’ll be able to figure out the balance between what he has to change & what he can get away with that someone else couldn’t. Rodgers could complete a higher % if he didn’t care about looking cool when he throws the ball, but that feeling is part of what makes him great, the “when you look good, you play good” saying has some merit, the brain is a mad scientist, if you can tap into the right chemical/hormonal responses you can access a delusional level of confidence that many thrive in... Favre did.

 

 

1 hour ago, PartyPosse said:

Honestly, I think the jets are a much better team than what they’ve shown, but not having Darnold hurts killed them. But that defense; with the additions of Mosley and Johnson plus Quinnen is starting to get going, i expect them to beat us pretty easily.

I couldn’t agree more, I believe the Jets will thunderhump us. 

[volsmet]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

So watching that video, a few things stood out:

 

-First read arrows, second read drags are bread and butter passes for him. He completes them in his sleep. 

-He does that jumping throw thing entirely too often. And he contorts his body in strange ways to do it.

-He stands well in the pocket, even under pressure. Sometimes too well. But he hangs in there. 

-His "Pressure clock" is a mixed bag. Sometimes he has absolutely no idea someone is bearing down, sometimes he feels it and gets out and looks great doing so.

-His slide game needs work  

-He doesn't let his feet get set very often, but typically when he does he seems to throw a much better ball.

-He has this odd throwing pattern when he drops his front foot to be even with his back foot before the release. He's not putting his feet in position to throw to the target. Especially on throws to the left. 

-I'm not sure I saw him progress passed his second read one time in any of those throws. And he got to his second read very few times.

-Weird habit of letting his front shoulder fall even before he delivers a pass

-Good escape speed when the pocket breaks down

 

From the Giants game, I didn't see much different than from preseason. Happy feet in the pocket, jumping throws, body contortions. 
 

He throws from his front foot and throws the ball in the dirt, he throws from his back foot and air mails it... he needs to distribute his weight better as he gets ready to deliver. Weight slight back but not far enough back that your front foot comes off the ground. 

 

He can improve. You saw some nice stuff from him on some of those throws. Did some things that you really like to see from a playmaker.

 

 

22 minutes ago, kfrankie said:

 

So Haskins' coach while at Bullis was Pat Cilento.  Cilento was an excellent High School quarterback and went on to play at division I-AA I believe after taking a hiatus or transfer.  He probably received better coaching than the vast majority of HS quarterbacks, but who knows how much time Cilento really dedicated to this type of work.  Again, you need more than one coach to implement a "pro style" passing offense, plus time, plus the horses.  And its not necessary to win in HS.  Big passing numbers in HS are often the result of speed at the split end and RB positions.  Short passes end up going 40 yards.  I can't say that's what happened with Haskins, but I doubt his HS experience provides much of a benefit at this level.

DH was going to QB camps in grade school. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

 

 

-First read arrows, second read drags are bread and butter passes for him. He completes them in his sleep. 

-

 

Yep in camp, drags, shallow crossers, slants were his wheel house.  Anything between the numbers especially the mid part of the field.  The throws directly in his line of sight.  I gather that's partly because of all the mesh concepts he dealt with at Ohio State.

 

14 minutes ago, volsmet said:

 

I don’t dislike the idea of letting a veteran handle the first couple games after a coaching transition. Losing the teams leader is an uncomfortable dynamic to put on any qb, now each vet has a bit more responsibility & that seems a fine role for Colt or Case over the next 2 weeks. I don’t think Haskins would embarrass himself if you put him out there now, he’s too gifted, but waiting until the 2nd half makes sense.

 

 

Yeah though the emphasis of the point by the QB coach was more about you should see progress in that 2 week span in prepping for his starting debut -- implying if you don't see decent progress on the field then its a red flag.  That to me came off premature.

 

By the way check your PM when you got a sec.

[TSO]

8 hours ago, ntotoro said:

 

I don't think you're wrong about this. BMitch and a few others have commented on how neither Haskins nor Sweat was given any sort of real direction during the Summer. Gruden didn't want to prepare Haskins, knowing he was likely a short-timer. He has never tried to alter his Offense for his talent and just said "Colt, Colt, Colt" as long as he's been here.

 

Beathard would tell Gibbs "This is what you've got" and Gibbs would taylor his Offense to it. Gruden kept trying to fit square pegs into round holes and pimp players who wouldn't even be on a roster if not for him.

Let me fix this for you. 
 

Beathard would tell Gibbs “This awesome ensemble of multi dimensional talent that includes various skill sets that complement each other is what you’ve got. Oh, and we can IR anyone we want to develop and we can spend whatever we want so don’t worry, lol, isn’t it fun to be in an organization that’s set up properly and we’re all fulfilling our roles relative to our expertise? High five!” 

[volsmet]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Yeah though the emphasis of the point by the QB coach was more about you should see progress in that 2 week span in prepping for his starting debut -- implying if you don't see decent progress on the field then its a red flag.  That to me came off premature.

 

By the way check your PM when you got a sec.

Oh, absolutely, there will be nothing significant to infer after any single game played by any human in any sport. Haskins could be atrocious 3 weeks in a row and you’d be able to infer very little... he could be slow through his progressions simply thinking through any number of things the staff wants him to. Being a pocket passer, behind a bad line, with few weapons, a new coach, and 1/8th of the salary cap invested in Alex Smith ... ooof, I’d like to see how he responds by start 5 or 6, we’ll know a bit by then.

 

Back to the talk of mechanics for a moment ... the tireless work through those drills, perfecting what you’ve been taught, that’s what get Daniel Jones drafted. There are hundreds of QBs who are more gifted, but few who were willing to work so hard; sometimes things not coming as easily can be the reason you ultimately surpass all of those who were blessed with more ability. You see 5 star talents bust all the time because they think they’re special, they think they can get away with doing less,... and you never hear from them again. That’s what makes guys like Rodgers so ridiculous, to stand out among the elite, without needing to do things perfectly, is extraordinary. Daniel Jones developed physically & never lost the desire to prove others wrong ... that chip is why he’s in the nfl rather than working at a law firm. Haskins has the talent, he doesn’t need to do anything perfectly to get a ball anywhere he wants, so the impetus to get it all right is not as substantial... Jones only saw results when he was mechanically flawless, DH sees results when he does nothing correctly. The difference between DH and other gifted passers is that DH really wants to be the best QB to ever play; most think that would be cool, but the ... ...other perks....... the more immediate...... 🤨... ...are the ultimate allure.
 

Are you staying after practice to work on your mechanics when the finest meats & cheeses are waiting for you the second you get home?
 

 

 

 

[Going Commando]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Doesn't that seem premature or am I missing the plot behind that comment? 

 

It seems weird and arbitrary to me, but maybe that's the timeline he'd think necesarry to redesign an effective offense around Haskins and come up with gameplans to suit him and then implement all of that in practice. 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

[RandyHolt]

Wonderful

 

At least social media platforms are finally evolving past LIKE or nothing.

[volsmet]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

A passive aggressive reaction from a frustrated 22 year old?
 

 

 

[ggarriso]

Terrible look - anyone w/ an IQ over 3 would know this is a post (and storyline) you stay away from, especially considering his (justified or not) involvement in the national narrative.  I dont understand the near obsession w/ everyone wanting to assert that they "think hes a good guy" - you would think he has spent half his natural life conducting aid missions in impoverished countries and not trying to sell tickets to his "haskins and haskins" draft party.  I think he has shown his ass time and time again from the moment he was drafted, and I find him to be a self indulgent, low energy, and unfocused individual.  Maybe I am biased since he was Danny's hand selected pick against the wishes of the actual football minds but I do not see him as a leader or even a particularly good next level QB.  Your leaders do not engage in this petty BS. 

 

At a worse case he is kicking a man who just lost his job, which is frankly despicable (unless its bruce allen, then kick away), at best case its HORRIBLE judgement and still a commentary on his character.   

 

 

 

[volsmet]

22 minutes ago, ggarriso said:

Terrible look - anyone w/ an IQ over 3 would know this is a post (and storyline) you stay away from, especially considering his (justified or not) involvement in the national narrative.  I dont understand the near obsession w/ everyone wanting to assert that they "think hes a good guy" - you would think he has spent half his natural life conducting aid missions in impoverished countries and not trying to sell tickets to his "haskins and haskins" draft party.  I think he has shown his ass time and time again from the moment he was drafted, and I find him to be a self indulgent, low energy, and unfocused individual.  Maybe I am biased since he was Danny's hand selected pick against the wishes of the actual football minds but I do not see him as a leader or even a particularly good next level QB.  Your leaders do not engage in this petty BS. 

 

At a worse case he is kicking a man who just lost his job, which is frankly despicable (unless its bruce allen, then kick away), at best case its HORRIBLE judgement and still a commentary on his character.   

 

 

 

Michael Jordan is perhaps the most petty human to ever live.
 

I haven’t seen the obsession with lauding his character, I suspect that interpretation is about your personal feelings rather than what’s actually present.