!!!!0mgz!!!! Trent Williams finally showed up

[goskins10]

1 hour ago, clskinsfan said:

 

He is a good player. But he is a holding penalty waiting to happen. He needs to clean up his game quite a bit. Plus he has already lost the better part of a season to injury. Not saying the guy is injury prone like Trent is. But you add up a season ender and the holding calls and he isnt a 14 Mill per year guard IMO. 

 

Kind of interesting  take there. 

 

2015 - 3 penalties - 2 holding - 1 false start

2016 - He has a rough year - 8 Penalties - 5 hoiding and 3 false starts - 

2017 he had 1 penalty accepted - Unnecessary Roughness   - 1 declined - Ineligible Downfield Receiver

2018 He had 2 penalties before he got hurt and yes they were holding 

He had 2 against dallas  and that's it so far. 

 

So in 56 games played he has a total of 11 holding - 5 of which were in 1 season that was 4 seasons ago. Seems like saying he is a holding penalty waiting to happen is more an over rection from one recent game.   

 

All this completely ignores the kind of person he is in terms of a lock room leader. A guy that understand football culture. You can see it whenever he talks to the media. I see those insider videos with him. So yes he is easily worth $14M/yr. 

 

Not directly at you just continuing from here: 

Bruce needs to stop being a punk ass and sign the guy. It's more evidence that he and dan do not understand the importance of football culture. He is a moron.  Likely to either let him walk or send us down the franchise tag route. Absolutely ignorant as hell. 

[Ghedrick]

Trent and Sherff are the only two guys that can bring significant return.I am in the camp that we need to go all in on the rebuild. If we can land a first and change for each one of them we need to do it. Norman and Reed have to go as well if we can get some thing for them great if not cut them.Kerrigan I love but we should do him a solid and get him to a contender he deserves it. By trading Trent Kerrigan and Sherff and cutting Norman and Reed we would be loaded with draft picks and an extra 45 million in cap space between these moves in the offseason. To me this a no brainer but we got Bruce running the show so all these guys will be back next year we will have no cap space and one pick in the first two rounds.Also I wouldn't mind seeing AP, Moses and P Richie getting traded or cut as well saving close to 10 million in cap space for 2020.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, clskinsfan said:

 

He is a good player. But he is a holding penalty waiting to happen. 

 

Since when?  That's purely about angst about last Sunday's 2 calls.  Otherwise that doesn't reflect his career, not even close.    

 

Last year he had 2 holding calls for the whole season.   The season before that zero holds.  He also has 0 false starts last year, 0 the season before that and 0 the season before that one.

 

You are picking on the wrong O lineman as for penalties, Scherff if anything is one of the least penalized lineman in the league.  Last year he had 2 penalties for the whole season.  Moses had 13.   Moses has been the penalty machine. 

 

Moses is durable but other than that you can argue the dude is at best just slightly above average in his career and this far this season, he has been below average.  We dump Trent and Scherff and then have Moses as the veteran stalwart then we are talking potentially about us having our own version of the 2016-2017 Giant O line where we become a punch line on that front.  

[Rypienskinz]

I would take Garrett Bolles and Denver’s first in a minute. Try Bolles at RT/G. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

39 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

Bruce needs to stop being a punk ass and sign the guy. It's more evidence that he and dan do not understand the importance of football culture. He is a moron.  Likely to either let him walk or send us down the franchise tag route. Absolutely ignorant as hell. 

There is always the possibility he doesn’t want to sign a deal here either.  When he spoke publicly about it before the season, he said all the right things.  But that’s just what dudes like him do. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

As good a thread as any to put this lol...

 

 

 

[JSSkinz]

If you're gonna push the narrative about Trent and penalties your better off using all penalties because then you actually have some facts to back up your statement.

 

He was tied for 6th (there are multiple O lineman tied at 1st - 5th) in most penalties for an offensive lineman last year and he had another 4 that were declined, in 16 games.

 

 

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

2 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

Kind of interesting  take there. 

 

2015 - 3 penalties - 2 holding - 1 false start

2016 - He has a rough year - 8 Penalties - 5 hoiding and 3 false starts - 

2017 he had 1 penalty accepted - Unnecessary Roughness   - 1 declined - Ineligible Downfield Receiver

2018 He had 2 penalties before he got hurt and yes they were holding 

He had 2 against dallas  and that's it so far. 

 

So in 56 games played he has a total of 11 holding - 5 of which were in 1 season that was 4 seasons ago.

4

 

Doesn't that mean, though, that he's had 4 holding penalties in his last 10 games?...That would be a worse rate than 4 seasons ago, and would be recent.

[goskins10]

4 hours ago, Califan007 said:

 

Doesn't that mean, though, that he's had 4 holding penalties in his last 10 games?...That would be a worse rate than 4 seasons ago, and would be recent.

 

If I wanted to cherry pick I would have said 4 in 24 games. Not to mention with such small numbers 1 or 2 can skew things, like 2 against Dallas. 

 

Either way way none of this constitutes A holding penalty waiting to happen”.  Which of course was the point.  It also doesn’t change the fact that Bruce is a moron for not getting him signed.  Why?  Over a few $M a yr?  His leadership is worth that.    

[Nerm]

2 hours ago, Rypienskinz said:

I would take Garrett Bolles and Denver’s first in a minute. Try Bolles at RT/G. 

 

https://deadspin.com/john-elway-on-his-struggling-left-tackle-garett-bolles-1838263300

 

It sounds like Elway would love to ship Bolles out.  Quote from article from Elway "Does he know what holding is?"

 

I think Bolles actually fits the description of "a penalty waiting to happen".  I think I read something about Bolles having the worst pff OL grade of all time for his game last week.  

[Nerm]

45 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

Either way way none of this constitutes A holding penalty waiting to happen”.  Which of course was the point.  It also doesn’t change the fact that Bruce is a moron for not getting him signed.  Why?  Over a few $M a yr?  His leadership is worth that.    

 

I agree that he should be signed, even if it ends up requiring top 3 guard money.  In two years, that may look like a bargain.

[CapsSkins]

Eagles are at home this week so that pic of Trent + DeSean is most likely in Philly. For whatever that's worth.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 hour ago, goskins10 said:

If I wanted to cherry pick I would have said 4 in 34 games. Not to mention with such small numbers 1 or 2 can skew things, like 2 against Dallas.

1

 

You could, yeah...but you'd be wrong lol. He's had 7 holding penalties in the last 34 games. Unless you were doing some industrial strength cherry picking and chose 34 random games over his career. At any rate, that's why I said "recent"...that denotes a timespan, and I defined it as this year and last year. Going back beyond last year didn't seem to fit the definition of "recent" performance...i mean, if he had 5 holding penalties this season in 2 games, would that really be offset by the fact that he had none back in 2017?...Or would 5 in the last two games be enough so that "holding call waiting to happen" is an understandable viewpoint to hold?

 

Plus, I'm not sure saying he had multiple holding calls in one game strengthens or weakens the argument that a player isn't a "holding call waiting to happen" lol--but it's a somewhat vague phrase that is subjective in nature. I personally don't think a holding call once every 2.5 games qualifies (4 over the last 10 games), but I've never bothered thinking about how I'd define it before now.

[goskins10]

29 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

You could, yeah...but you'd be wrong lol. He's had 7 holding penalties in the last 34 games. Unless you were doing some industrial strength cherry picking and chose 34 random games over his career. At any rate, that's why I said "recent"...that denotes a timespan, and I defined it as this year and last year. Going back beyond last year didn't seem to fit the definition of "recent" performance...i mean, if he had 5 holding penalties this season in 2 games, would that really be offset by the fact that he had none back in 2017?...Or would 5 in the last two games be enough so that "holding call waiting to happen" is an understandable viewpoint to hold?

 

Plus, I'm not sure saying he had multiple holding calls in one game strengthens or weakens the argument that a player isn't a "holding call waiting to happen" lol--but it's a somewhat vague phrase that is subjective in nature. I personally don't think a holding call once every 2.5 games qualifies (4 over the last 10 games), but I've never bothered thinking about how I'd define it before now.

 

I meant 24 not 34  Been in a plane and airports for the last 24+ hrs so I hit a wrong number.   For 24 what I said is correct. That to me is pretty recent. last 2 seasons.    He had 2 this yr in one gm that was a ****ing disaster for the entire team. and coming back from injury.

 

No matter how anyone wants to cut it, even 4 in the last 10, does not qualify in my mind to "a holding call waiting to happen". More importantly, there is no way that is something that should keep the team from resigning him. 

 

 

[Santana_89]

2 hours ago, JSSkinz said:

If you're gonna push the narrative about Trent and penalties your better off using all penalties because then you actually have some facts to back up your statement.

 

He was tied for 6th (there are multiple O lineman tied at 1st - 5th) in most penalties for an offensive lineman last year and he had another 4 that were declined, in 16 games.

 

 

 

 Sick of Bruce. Sick of Trent.  I don't care where Trent is if he isn't at Ashburn Park. All he needs to do is stay healthy and off the weed until he is traded.

[goskins10]

3 hours ago, JSSkinz said:

If you're gonna push the narrative about Trent and penalties your better off using all penalties because then you actually have some facts to back up your statement.

 

He was tied for 6th (there are multiple O lineman tied at 1st - 5th) in most penalties for an offensive lineman last year and he had another 4 that were declined, in 16 games.

 

 

Edit

 

 

Can you share where your data comes from? I have him at tied for 19th with 8 accepted penalties - I do have 4 declined. Still kind of high but not 6th. Our Morgan Moses led the league with 14. Here is what I have. It's all Oline - no other position.    Here is the source - https://www.nflpenalties.com/position/offensive-line?year=2018&view=players

 

If he was 6th highest including declined I can see that. But you said 6th and then said "another 4 declined" implying he was 6th in accepted penalties. Just curious if i am missing something. 

 

Maybe you meant he is tied for 6th overall with with 12 but 4 of them were declined? That seems to align. 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

I think this thread is going off the rails -- Scherff, Trent and Moses = penalty prone scrubs, dump em, blow the O line up and lets build our O line around  Eric Flowers.  😀  Just kidding.   Hyperbole on my end to make a point.    My point is I don't think the O line is talented enough to dump their two best O lineman.   I think we can work our way around losing 1 O lineman but the 2 best?  In that case, it's not like the other three left standing are studs. 

 

Again the Eagles and Cowboys have monster O lines and they've kept their guys.  I don't love the idea of having the worst O line in the division.   Replacing Trent for a young and upcoming LT, I'll take that risk.  But I'd rather not get weaker at RG too, especially with an arguably "meh" RT right besides that spot.  Roullier is far from a pro bowl center.  It would likely be a "meh" O line for a season or two.  And i wouldn't love that for Haskins. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cincy reporter

 

 

[volsmet]

3 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

His leadership is worth that.    

 

As is evidenced by?

 

 

3 hours ago, Nerm said:

 

https://deadspin.com/john-elway-on-his-struggling-left-tackle-garett-bolles-1838263300

 

It sounds like Elway would love to ship Bolles out.  Quote from article from Elway "Does he know what holding is?"

 

I think Bolles actually fits the description of "a penalty waiting to happen".  I think I read something about Bolles having the worst pff OL grade of all time for his game last week.  

 

He’s gifted, he’s insane, sign him up.

 

[JSSkinz]

45 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

 

Can you share where your data comes from? I have him at tied for 19th with 8 accepted penalties - I do have 4 declined. Still kind of high but not 6th. Our Morgan Moses led the league with 14. Here is what I have. It's all Oline - no other position.    Here is the source - https://www.nflpenalties.com/position/offensive-line?year=2018&view=players

 

If he was 6th highest including declined I can see that. But you said 6th and then said "another 4 declined" implying he was 6th in accepted penalties. Just curious if i am missing something. 

 

Maybe you meant he is tied for 6th overall with with 12 but 4 of them were declined? That seems to align. 

 

 

Thats exactly the source I used and I sorted by all O lineman to give Trent the benefit of the doubt.

 

If you go by total penalties its 8th or if you go by count per game its 10th.  For example Moses is 1st but then Hart, Davenport, and Erving are all tied with 12 total penalties so they would be 2nd below Moses.  Dawkins, Redmon, and Jenkins would be 3rd with 11 total penalties.

 

This is how I typically see stats done, I really don't know how else you would do them because there are many players who have the same amount of total penalties or count per game. 

 

If you're saying that each player with 12, 11, 10, 9, or 8 penalties in 2018 is a different ranking then I can't agree with that because they were all equal in the number of times they were penalized.

 

 

[volsmet]

18 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I think this thread is going off the rails -- Scherff, Trent and Moses = penalty prone scrubs, dump em, blow the O line up and lets build our O line around  Eric Flowers.  😀  Just kidding.   Hyperbole on my end to make a point.    My point is I don't think the O line is talented enough to dump their two best O lineman.   I think we can work our way around losing 1 O lineman but the 2 best?  In that case, it's not like the other three left standing are studs. 

 

Again the Eagles and Cowboys have monster O lines and they've kept their guys.  I don't love the idea of having the worst O line in the division.   Replacing Trent for a young and upcoming LT, I'll take that risk.  But I'd rather not get weaker at RG too, especially with an arguably "meh" RT right besides that spot.  Roullier is far from a pro bowl center.  It would likely be a "meh" O line for a season or two.  And i wouldn't love that for Haskins. 

 

 

 

 

 

If NE would give up a first for Scherff, don’t do it. If NE wouldn’t, but someone else would, do it. Make NE our proxy gm.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, volsmet said:

 

 

If NE would give up a first for Scherff, don’t do it. If NE wouldn’t, but someone else would, do it. Make NE our proxy gm.

 

 

 

I am with you if they can get a first for Scherff but it seems like such a fantasy that its a waste of discussion.  It's tough for me to imagine a guard who won't even be under contract in 2020 and is likely seeking top 5 OG type of money would fetch a first rounder -- but even if I can be sold that he would I seriously doubt they'd trade him.  Trent might be on the trading block but that's because he forced their hand.  

[goskins10]

1 hour ago, JSSkinz said:

 

Thats exactly the source I used and I sorted by all O lineman to give Trent the benefit of the doubt.

 

If you go by total penalties its 8th or if you go by count per game its 10th.  For example Moses is 1st but then Hart, Davenport, and Erving are all tied with 12 total penalties so they would be 2nd below Moses.  Dawkins, Redmon, and Jenkins would be 3rd with 11 total penalties.

 

This is how I typically see stats done, I really don't know how else you would do them because there are many players who have the same amount of total penalties or count per game. 

 

If you're saying that each player with 12, 11, 10, 9, or 8 penalties in 2018 is a different ranking then I can't agree with that because they were all equal in the number of times they were penalized.

 

 

 

The numbers are the same.  I was trying to understand how you cut them.  I was going by total number.  Not #/gm which is probably better. 

 

More importantly I was Just  making sure sure there were not two sets of competing data. And there are not.  

 

Totally ok for two people to cut the same data differently.  Makes for good conversation.  But competing data is a problem. 

[JSSkinz]

6 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

The numbers are the same.  I was trying to understand how you cut them.  I was going by total number.  Not #/gm which is probably better. 

 

More importantly I was Just  making sure sure there were not two sets of competing data. And there are not.  

 

Totally ok for two people to cut the same differently.  Makes for good conversation.  But competing data is a problem. 

For what it's worth I would quickly bow out of a debate on Trent being a holding machine or a player who constantly commits penalties.  I don't like using 1 year of data when analyzing anything unless it's all I have.  I like 3-5 year chunks so I can look at patterns and the 3-5 year numbers on Trent show that last year was the exception and not the rule.

 

I was just trying to tell the guy who originally posted that statement that he may want to get some better data before debating that topic.

[ILikeBilly]

For what it is worth, if 4 people run a race and one guy runs it in 10 seconds two people run it in 11 seconds and one person runs it in 12 seconds, one guy gets first place two guys get second place and the last guy gets 4th place. and that is how you should look at the statistics above.

[desertbeagle85]

11 hours ago, Ghedrick said:

Trent and Sherff are the only two guys that can bring significant return.I am in the camp that we need to go all in on the rebuild. If we can land a first and change for each one of them we need to do it. Norman and Reed have to go as well if we can get some thing for them great if not cut them.Kerrigan I love but we should do him a solid and get him to a contender he deserves it. By trading Trent Kerrigan and Sherff and cutting Norman and Reed we would be loaded with draft picks and an extra 45 million in cap space between these moves in the offseason. To me this a no brainer but we got Bruce running the show so all these guys will be back next year we will have no cap space and one pick in the first two rounds.Also I wouldn't mind seeing AP, Moses and P Richie getting traded or cut as well saving close to 10 million in cap space for 2020.

 

You do know that rebuilding doesn't mean that you have to send off young talent like Sherff. Now I haven't been impressed with his play the 1st 2 games this year, but I'm not ready to move him yet. As for Trent he's getting long in the tooth. So that trade I understand. Trading Sherff would be pretty stupid unless they think they're not going to be able to resign him.