The Jay Gruden Curve (if there isn’t one, there should be)

[kleese]

46 minutes ago, Chelsea_Phil said:

Hi, everyone.  This is my first post, and I am sorry that it has to be a negative one, but I cannot help myself given what I saw on Sunday.

 

I like Jay as a person, but like many on this forum, he lacks many of the skills needed to be a good HC.  

 

There are some things that are lumped under Head Coaching 101, things that any good HC does as a matter of course.   Jay must have failed his HC 101 course, and here is a prime example:

 

We are driving for the winning field goal at the end of the Jaguars game, and are well in field goal range.  We have one time out (maybe two, I forget), and it is not fourth down.  There is less than a minute left in the game.  What does a normal HC do?  He brings out the field goal team, and lets the clock go down to about 12 seconds, and then has the center hike the ball to start the field goal attempt.   Why?  Because, if the center happens to make a bad snap, such as with a new center like we had on Sunday, the ball holder, Tress Way, can grab the bad snap, and instead of having the kicker make a kick with his timing all off, can instead call a time out, and then have sufficient time left on the clock (e.g., one second or more) to have another field goal attempt.

 

So, what does Jay do?  He lets the clock go down to what, 4 seconds, so if a bad snap occurred, there would be no time for the holder to call a time out before the clock goes to zero.

 

To me, this is inexcusable.

 

I think no one mentioned this bone-head decision to Jay at the after-game press conference and at the press conference the day after, but someone should have done so.

 

He makes plenty of bad time management decisions, as we all know, and this one just compounds his inability to do the simple HC 101 things that mostly all Head Coaches will do in their sleep.

 

No one mentioned this because the snap was OK and the field goal was attempted and made, but as a "what if", it really makes my blood boil.  Though I do recall that Trevor Matich did mention it on the post-game show on MASN, and kudos to him for doing so.

 

 

Meh, I disagree. In my 40ish years of watching football I can hardly remember any instance where a coach did this. Most coaches bleed it down to a final play. I’d say I’ve seen about the same number of “Miami Miracle” plays as I have bad snaps on an early down field goal attempt where the team then got another chance. Maybe in this particular case with the new snapper it should have been considered, but it’s not something you see coaches do often at all. In the moment I wanted him to bleed the clock and not allow the Jags for

one last lateral-type play. 

[fearlessNelms]

The crazy thing about this whole Gruden debate on whether to fire him, is that if, - obviously a huge if- we win out & make the playoffs he is probably deserving of a few votes for coach of the year. By no means am I saying he could or should win it if we win our last two games and get in the tournament, just saying that he would probably get a vote or two for coach of the year- which is kind of crazy to even fathom.

[Chelsea_Phil]

OK, I stand corrected given that at least two posters disagree with me.   Maybe I was overthinking things, but to me, the chances of a botched snap, especially with a new snapper, would far outweigh the chances of the Janguars getting to run one play from their 20 (presuming a kickoff by Hopkins into the endzone), whereby the one thing to watch out for would be a long, pass interference decision by a referee that would give the Jags another play with zero time remaining (yes, I know that the Dolphins ran a crazy play to beat the Pats, but that happens so infrequent that I do not consider that something to worry about).

[Peregrine]

15 hours ago, kleese said:

 

For me it isn’t just a matter of “well he can get us to be average and that’s better than bad so let’s keep him forever.” 

 

I see a coach that can obviously get us in the 7-9 win range despite FO and off field fiascos and a bevy of injuries, almost at a comical level the last two years. So I think it’s reasonable at this point to think Jay is capable of delivering MORE than 7-9 wins if he can catch some breaks and get a little better leadership from those above him. 

 

It’s not that I am just fine to always be 7-9 because that’s better than 4-12. It’s that I still believe he’s capable of delivering more and has shown enough to get another year to prove it. 

Why?  Hes had 5 years to do it, and after 5 years hes shown he can get more than 8 wins exactly once.  And that was 9 wins, and it took a disaster of a season by the rest of the NFC East.

 

They say insanity is trying the same thing over and over again expecting different results.  Why are we expecting different results with a guy who we have already seen 5 years of results with?  You believe hes capable of doing that which hes shown hes not capable of.  You could take that to ad infinitum, after 30 years of it you could say you believe hes capable of SOME day getting there.

15 hours ago, skinny21 said:

Pretty sure we’ve had playoff hopes under Gruden (including this year).  A playoff appearance even.  I’m assuming that’s not what you meant though.  

 

I think you’re leaving off the 2nd half of the statement/though - no one wants to keep Gruden because he can get us to 7 wins, it’s that he can get us to 7 wins with this FO, and with this amount of injuries.  And by ‘with this FO’ (not that it needs to spelled out), I mean a FO that lets two 1,000 yard receivers walk without adequately replacing them, lets 2 of our top corners walk, lets our franchise qb leave, relies on injury prone players, etc.  

 

To be clear, I’m posting this less as a defense of Gruden, and more as a defense of those that are ok with keeping him.  

What I've seen is people saying that they want to keep Gruden because 7 wins at least means respectability somehow, and thats better than 5 wins, which is how things used to be.  While I disagree beyond belief with anyone who suggests Gruden is a good enough coach for any sense of regular playoffs, I think that hope at least makes more sense than saying getting 7 wins a year is at least better than 5, so we should be happy with that.

 

And hope is a funny thing, false hope is, by definition, not real hope.  Hoping for the playoffs this season was false hope, not real hope.  There is no real hope under gruden, just things that arent true, that people have convinced themselves of.  You can be the Browns at 1-15 and people will claim they have "hope" they will make the playoffs, but thats a misuse of the definition of hope"a feeling of expectation and desire for a certain thing to happen."  Expectation is the key word there.

[Burgold]

@Chelsea_Phil has a point. Normally, bleeding the clock down to the last seconds is smart football, but situationally, given that we had a long snapper whose only practice with the kicker and holder was during pregame warm ups;  it might have been wise to leave a few second safety net just in case.

 

I won't really criticize Jay Gruden for doing the SOP, but with the personnel SOP was close to be SOL.

[skinny21]

33 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

Why?  Hes had 5 years to do it, and after 5 years hes shown he can get more than 8 wins exactly once.  And that was 9 wins, and it took a disaster of a season by the rest of the NFC East.

 

They say insanity is trying the same thing over and over again expecting different results.  Why are we expecting different results with a guy who we have already seen 5 years of results with?  You believe hes capable of doing that which hes shown hes not capable of.  You could take that to ad infinitum, after 30 years of it you could say you believe hes capable of SOME day getting there.

Obviously coaching is tied to numerous other factors - roster composition (talent, depth, scheme fit, health), play calling, assistant coaches, schedule difficulty, time management, etc, etc.  The first point is of course where some (like myself and Kleese) will point to Gruden needing help from the FO (and some luck), some of those other points are where I find myself questioning whether he can get past mediocrity.  So I completely get those wanting him gone.  

 

I can look at someone like Sean Peyton going 7-9 three years straight and find myself believing that roster issues should probably be weighted heavier than those other factors.  So what has Gruden had to work with?  He’s never had offensive personnel that could both run and pass (outside of some outlier games).  He’s never had a defense that could stop both the run and pass (ditto the above).  This is the first year he’s had a pretty solid ST.  That’s putting it lightly too, because it’s been a combo of all of that.  He’s also had 6! (7 if you count McCoy twice) different qbs starting games for him.  

 

Again, compare that to Peyton.  So again, I can see the argument for getting rid of him (especially if we hire a solid GM and they want to move on from him), but it should also be fairly obvious that there are reasonable reasons to keep him as we strive for improving the roster.  

 

So yeah, I definitely reject your notion of it being ‘insane’ to keep him.  IMO, it’s reasonable to want him gone and it’s reasonable to want him retained.  The extreme positions - that he definitively can’t get better results or he definitively will get better - are the unreasonable positions.  

 

[goskins10]

1 hour ago, Chelsea_Phil said:

OK, I stand corrected given that at least two posters disagree with me.   Maybe I was overthinking things, but to me, the chances of a botched snap, especially with a new snapper, would far outweigh the chances of the Janguars getting to run one play from their 20 (presuming a kickoff by Hopkins into the endzone), whereby the one thing to watch out for would be a long, pass interference decision by a referee that would give the Jags another play with zero time remaining (yes, I know that the Dolphins ran a crazy play to beat the Pats, but that happens so infrequent that I do not consider that something to worry about).

 

28 minutes ago, Burgold said:

@Chelsea_Phil has a point. Normally, bleeding the clock down to the last seconds is smart football, but situationally, given that we had a long snapper whose only practice with the kicker and holder was during pregame warm ups;  it might have been wise to leave a few second safety net just in case.

 

I won't really criticize Jay Gruden for doing the SOP, but with the personnel SOP was close to be SOL.

 

First, to chelsea - A minor correction, admittedly very minor - the ball would be at the 25 not the 20 on a touch back off a kickback. Not a huge deal nor does it make or break the point. 

 

A botched snap is very rare. And again, what are the ramifications of each. Worst case scenario on botched snap is OT- Yes there is a sliver of a chance they scoop and score - but if that happens living time on the clock does not help you. Worst case scenario on giving them a play is you lose the game. And if you ant to talk that games scenario, the team had new players in other places on STs which resulted in punt return for TD in that game. By leaving no time you don't even risk the kick-off. I can only imagine how apoplectic people would have been had Jay left a few seconds on the clock then the Jags run the KO back for a TD. 

 

Jay did exactly the right thing here. There is no HC in the NFL given the same scenario that would have left time on the clock. If the worst happens with no time, it's OT. If the worst happens by leaving time on the clock it's a loss. 

 

Jay has his faults. I have called them out myself. But this is not one of them - not at all. And why I am on it so much is it's not the only time fans have berated Jay for poor time management when he actually did the right thing. Then people include those in their appraisal of his time management. He has had his issues but he is actually not much worse if at all than most of the other HCs in the NFL. We just do not sit on every second of every game like we do the Redskins. 

 

Go look at other message boards. And every single game day I bet you will find at least a few complaints about how the HC managed the time, outside blow-outs. Same with play calling. Everyone is now an expert play caller. When Jay had a few better weapons - not great but better - the offense ran better. But the play calling is only as good as the execution. 

 

I agree with those that would like to see how Jay does with a real GM. 

 

Having said that, if Bruce stays then keep Jay. Not so much because of Jay but I do not want Bruce to have anything to do with the next coach. If they get rid of Bruce, Jay has to go too. Need to let the new GM pick their own HC. Need to stop this - hire a guy but then force guys in house on them, therefore not letting them put their own team in place. 

 

 

[rabidskin]

On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 8:14 AM, kingdaddy said:

It's easy to say "fire Jay" and I'm in that camp...however, I'm trying to be careful and asking myself who else is out there that would be better and do we trust Bruce to find that person? For me the answer to this question is "no". Giving Jay the benefit of doubt with the disastrous injuries we suffered I'd have to say getting 7 wins is a pretty good feat. HOWEVER, getting embarrassed at home by the NYG with their 1st year coach is unacceptable and someone has to pay for that. With all of the talent we have on defense and considering how healthy we are on that side of the ball, the regression there in the 2nd half of the season has to be addressed. We need to find the right guy to lead our young Bama boys and make the defense a top 10 defense while we weed our way through the issues we have on offense. Offseason move #1: Fire Manusky and upgrade the defensive coordinator position.

Offensively we have several challenges ahead of us this offseason. The first thing I would do is re-sign AP. The heart and desire he ran with this past Sunday vs. Jacksonville led our team to the win. How many times did he stick his body into the line where there were no holes? Bring him back. Next, cut or trade Jordan Reed and let Crowder walk in free agency. Go with Quinn as the slot, give Harris a long look as a starter, Richardson should return healthy and hopefully Robert Davis and Cam Sims do as well.  Move on from Doctson if the coaches feel he'll never pan out. Sign a free agent TE, WR and any potential linemen that might come free. Draft O-line and grab a QB in round 2. We MUST address the offensive line. At QB, it's Colt, Josh Johnson and whatever rookie we draft. That's the way it'll have to be next year. 

As for Jay.....I'm ready to fire him for many reasons but mostly based on his record within the division during his 5 year run. We are losing too frequently to Dallas, Philly and NYG and it's time to fix that. Everyone needs a fresh approach with new ideas and a different way to do things. DJ Swearinger's complaints about soft practices say enough for me. Bring in McCarthy or someone who has won in the league....If they really love Jay then put him in the front office, I could live with that. 

 

Totally agree with AP signing. He's an example of the "heart" and mentality we need on this team.  All the oft injured players need to go!   You hit the nail on the head with your comments and I feel Allen needs to go along with the others.  Now Nicholson arrested being drunk and fighting with playoffs on the line....where are our players heads at and what focus do they have?  5 years was ample time for Gruden and Allen not to be in this position and the excessive history of injuries shows that the Redskins are not doing something right, strength and conditioning wise.  Clean house and keep the Kerrigan's and players that show up week to week and produce.  Get inexpensive young talent that desire to succeed and build.  Forget the Reed's,Lauvao, Doctson's that take up a roster spot for 6-8 games a year production.

[rabidskin]

On ‎12‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 7:58 AM, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

 

isnt the jax defense the best out of the three? What happened was johnson figured it out and put a string of plays together and was clutch in leading us to a victory against a top ten defense. We didn’t “pull it out after never leading”. Awe scored first. What happened is the rams got exposed by the bears. Goff is overrated. What happened was the titans were playing a giants team with no reason to give a damn. I know they kicked us while we were down, but playing against a divisional opponent which a chance to knock them out of the playoffs is motivation. What happened was, we put johnson in and we had instant success moving the ball.

 

I feel good about our chances. I think jay is an average to above average coach, above garret and shurmur, and there aren’t a lot of great alternatives available right now.

Get back in touch after the Tenn game and tell me what you have to say then.  Giants were on a roll and wanted to finish out winning.   Like last year, on the games that really matter, Jay doesn't have them prepared ... Giants beat us 18-10 the last game in 2017 to knock us out after we already beat them once...just like this year. Yes they have motivation to knock us out but where was our motivation to win and make the playoffs....ask the coach! And the Jax game, we were losing the 2nd,3rd, and 4th quarter until minutes to play after leading by a whopping 3 points in the 1st qtr.   You know where our players heads and focus is at right now being 1/2 game out of the playoffs with 2 games to play???  Ask Nicholson who just got arrested for fighting and being drunk....face it...after 5 years, Allen and Gruden are nowhere close to building a championship team.  It will never happen with these 2, just like I said for years that Shanahan was a mistake.   The Snyder debacle continues.  Every year, same story.  Our great years now are seeing if we can finish with a .500 average 8-8.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

2 hours ago, rabidskin said:

Get back in touch after the Tenn game and tell me what you have to say then.

 

well,yeah, if we lose the next game I won’t like our chances to win. My point is winning that jags game showed our players we can still win. The offense can move the ball which is more than you could say for the two weeks prior...

2 hours ago, rabidskin said:

 

  Giants were on a roll and wanted to finish out winning.   Like last year, on the games that really matter, Jay doesn't have them prepared ... Giants beat us 18-10 the last game in 2017 to knock us out after we already beat them once...just like this year. Yes they have motivation to knock us out but where was our motivation to win and make the playoffs....ask the coach!

 

Cousins was was done with the redskins and did nothing offensively. Hard to motivate someone who knows his future is somewhere else.

 

2 hours ago, rabidskin said:

 

 

And the Jax game, we were losing the 2nd,3rd, and 4th quarter until minutes to play after leading by a whopping 3 points in the 1st qtr.   You know where our players heads and focus is at right now being 1/2 game out of the playoffs with 2 games to play???  Ask Nicholson who just got arrested for fighting and being drunk....

 

He got drunk on his day off. After a victory. That’s not “not focusing” ... besides, I can’t remmber who it was, but wasn’t their an all pro that did coke right before the game?

 

 

2 hours ago, rabidskin said:

 

 

face it...after 5 years, Allen and Gruden are nowhere close to building a championship team.  It will never happen with these 2, just like I said for years that Shanahan was a mistake.   The Snyder debacle continues.  Every year, same story.  Our great years now are seeing if we can finish with a .500 average 8-8.

 

8-8 is a marked improvement over the shanny days.  Allen should go. Jay isn’t a terrible coach. Would you rather have shurmer or garret?

[rabidskin]

13 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

 

well,yeah, if we lose the next game I won’t like our chances to win. My point is winning that jags game showed our players we can still win. The offense can move the ball which is more than you could say for the two weeks prior...

 

Cousins was was done with the redskins and did nothing offensively. Hard to motivate someone who knows his future is somewhere else.

 

 

He got drunk on his day off. After a victory. That’s not “not focusing” ... besides, I can’t remmber who it was, but wasn’t their an all pro that did coke right before the game?

 

 

 

8-8 is a marked improvement over the shanny days.  Allen should go. Jay isn’t a terrible coach. Would you rather have shurmer or garret?

1. Like I said, 0-2 the last 2 games which will leave us at 7-9 again.  I really don't think they moved the ball well against a 4-10 team. Even when A Smith was healthy, our offense was poor and has been all year. Great job improving the team after 5 years Allen and Gruden.

2. Poor preparation by Gruden consistently after bye weeks and games that need to be won and you can't put it on Cousins as he just put up 27 points on Denver the week before and beat the Giants 5 weeks prior.  Allen wouldn't give him the 20 mil he was asking for a long term contract so chalk that one up on B Allen, not to mention costing us Fuller.  Even the players complain now that the preparation isn't there.  

3. ANY player who is out getting drunk during the week is definitely not concerned or focused about his job.  Should be reviewing game films and preparing to get better, especially if you are a back-up. Not out drunk and fighting and getting arrested. No-brainer there, but his football career is not a priority. A character flaw that reflects some of what isn't right with the Redskins and why we are losing.

4. 8-8 won't be reached again and we had the coach we needed in McVay after Gruden should have been replaced last year. I could cite many examples of poor clock management, terrible play selections, etc.  concerning Gruden, but it's too long and much to write and simply it's futile.  However here is one example, the end of the Texan's game, 19 seconds left with 0 timeouts and 10 yds needed for a FG that would have been good watching Hopkins actual kick... everyone knows defense will cover deep and sidelines with no timeouts to keep the clock running.  Gruden could have thrown a 10 YD slant across a wide open middle with time to spike the ball but he throws into coverage with a deep sideline pass eating precious seconds , then another covered incomplete sidelines pass causing a 65 yd attempt that missed by 5 yards.  That 1 game would have us in better shape for a playoff chance and a 1/2 game lead right now. Didn't matter though as our conditioning coach has been a nightmare and we don't have the bodies to win a playoff game.  Clean House with the majority of coaches and Allen.  Never thought I would feel this way when I used to watch Sonny, Huff, Hanburger, Pat Fischer and the gang.   Seen it all. Have a good day HTTR  

[CousinsCowgirl84]

 

2 hours ago, rabidskin said:

1. Like I said, 0-2 the last 2 games which will leave us at 7-9 again.  I really don't think they moved the ball well against a 4-10 team.

 

We will have to see, the 4-10 team had a very good defense and a pathetic offense. Just like us. But our coach managed to get 7 wins thus far instead of 4.

 

 

Quote

2.  Allen wouldn't give him the 20 mil he was asking for a long term contract so chalk that one up on B Allen, not to mention costing us Fuller. 

 

 

Everything you you say about bruce is correct.  I’m for canning him. Although, when he has decided to move on from players, he seems to be spot on. So objectively you gotta say moving on from djax and garçon was a good move. Vikes aren’t doing any better than us. I haven’t heard anything about fuller so idk about him.

 

Quote

 

3. ANY player who is out getting drunk during the week is definitely not concerned or focused about his job.  Should be reviewing game films and preparing to get better, especially if you are a back-up. Not out drunk and fighting and getting arrested. No-brainer there, but his football career is not a priority. A character flaw that reflects some of what isn't right with the Redskins and why we are losing.

 

That’s a matter of opinion, but even if it true, gruden can’t force someone to make football his sole focus in life. Gruden benched him for the rest of the season...

 

Quote

4. Gruden could have thrown a 10 YD slant across a wide open middle with time to spike the ball but he throws into coverage with a deep sideline pass eating precious seconds , then another covered incomplete sidelines pass causing a 65 yd attempt that missed by 5 yards.  

 

 

Thats the point ain’t you are completely missing. Gruden couldn’t have thrown a 10 yd pass and a Gruden didn’t throw into coverage. He’s not a qb.

[Skinsinparadise]

Among other things, I think Doug and company vastly underestimated the concept of Jay has a turn key offense. I personally think there is no such thing as some turn key offense that just makes any QB successful and ditto receivers regardless of their talent.   

 

I am picking on Doug because I recall him saying hey something to the effect of any QB will put up 4000 yards plus in a Jay offense.  I recall Bruce touting the Quick and Pryor signings and suggesting that should come close enough to replicating the production lost from D. Jax and Garcon. No and no.

 

My point is Jay isn't a perfect coach and isn't making lemonade out of lemons despite Doug-Bruce's unrealistic expectations.  And I can even argue maybe he's just an average coach.   Personally, I think he's good but if some want to argue average, I get that.   I disagree with those who think he's a bad coach.  If they go back to giving Jay a good QB and good weapons -- this team will put up points again.  If not, we are going to struggle IMO. 

 

If I had to pick on the two things I dislike about Jay it would be the lack of urgency the team seems to play with in do or die games.  For me personally, Jay saying later he didn't expect the Giants to play their starters for that long at the game that finished the 2016 season coupled with his I can't believe this is happening facial expressions during the game was an the low point for me.  Also, as good as a play designer he is, I think Jay is closer to an old school play caller (go with the gut, not a lot of innovative spread concepts, not much using metrics like the Eagles, etc do) and I don't love that.

 

But I do like his personality especially in the context of all the people I don't like above him.  He knows how to get an even mediocre WR corp open on plays.  He knows how to work with QBs.  He's a really good evaluator of college personnel and if we are going to dive deep into that well -- I trust Jay on that front way over anyone else in that building.  Do I think Jay is capable of winning a Superbowl here or elsewhere -- nope.  I don't see greatness in him.  But do I see the odds being high that they'd pick some coordinator elsewhere and that coach is a downgrade from Jay -- yeah I think the odds are good that happens.

 

So I am sort of where Laconfora was when asked about it the other day -- Jay is a decent coach.  If they go to the well again -- this isn't a desirable place to coach considering the owner (it goes double if Bruce stays), the QB situation and the cap situation so you aren't likely looking at the tier 1 of coaches but the next tier. 

 

Edit:  I'll add you got to judge any coach here on a curve.  And also you have to give extra credit to any coach who can deal with a mess above them.  Jay  gets extra points from me on both fronts.   Any coach to survive here has to be good at blocking out the crap that's thrown in their direction constantly -- Jay seems to be able to do that well and I think its his most underestimated value here by some. 

[SemperFi Skins]

16 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

 

He got drunk on his day off. After a victory. That’s not “not focusing” ... besides, I can’t remmber who it was, but wasn’t their an all pro that did coke right before the game?

 

 

 

Lawrence Taylor, and he did it at halftime as well.

 

Also, our OLine was all out till early hours, drunk, on the day of the Super Bowl that we were playing in and won...

 

Can't restrict players from having fun.... but maturity and character for fighting is a huge no-no... "You can't fix stupid"

[Inigo Montoya]

On 12/19/2018 at 9:00 AM, Burgold said:

@Chelsea_Phil has a point. Normally, bleeding the clock down to the last seconds is smart football, but situationally, given that we had a long snapper whose only practice with the kicker and holder was during pregame warm ups;  it might have been wise to leave a few second safety net just in case.

 

I won't really criticize Jay Gruden for doing the SOP, but with the personnel SOP was close to be SOL.

Isn't calling back to back TOs a penalty, ala Gibbs II ? 

[Morneblade]

On 12/19/2018 at 8:30 AM, Chelsea_Phil said:

OK, I stand corrected given that at least two posters disagree with me.   Maybe I was overthinking things, but to me, the chances of a botched snap, especially with a new snapper, would far outweigh the chances of the Janguars getting to run one play from their 20 (presuming a kickoff by Hopkins into the endzone), whereby the one thing to watch out for would be a long, pass interference decision by a referee that would give the Jags another play with zero time remaining (yes, I know that the Dolphins ran a crazy play to beat the Pats, but that happens so infrequent that I do not consider that something to worry about).

 

I actually don't disagree with your line of thinking. I'll also point out that while none of the new guys snaps were terrible, none of them were on target either. Way had to 'go get" ever single snap. Much more likely of a snap going bad than a last second play like the Dolphins had in this case.

[Burgold]

1 hour ago, Inigo Montoya said:

Isn't calling back to back TOs a penalty, ala Gibbs II ? 

No, because there would have been an intervening play. Time out-attempted field goal+muff+recovery. Time out. Second FG attempt. 

[Inigo Montoya]

2 hours ago, Burgold said:

No, because there would have been an intervening play. Time out-attempted field goal+muff+recovery. Time out. Second FG attempt. 

Ah- I missed the mugging of a field goal where we retain possession. I agreed with his game mgmt there

[TD_washingtonredskins]

10 hours ago, rabidskin said:

However here is one example, the end of the Texan's game, 19 seconds left with 0 timeouts and 10 yds needed for a FG that would have been good watching Hopkins actual kick... everyone knows defense will cover deep and sidelines with no timeouts to keep the clock running.  Gruden could have thrown a 10 YD slant across a wide open middle with time to spike the ball but he throws into coverage with a deep sideline pass eating precious seconds , then another covered incomplete sidelines pass causing a 65 yd attempt that missed by 5 yards.  That 1 game would have us in better shape for a playoff chance and a 1/2 game lead right now.

 

I want to zero in on the strategy you mentioned above...

 

When would you have thrown that easy 10-yard completion you described? We had a normal, mid-range pass that McCoy missed on 2nd down (remember, we spiked the ball on 1st down). So, we sat at 3rd-and-10 with 19 seconds to go. No timeouts and no ability to spike the ball if we don't get the 10 yards for a 1st down. I'd have loved to see what you described happen and actually work out...but there was so much risk there. 

 

We lost that game on the bad 2nd-down pass attempt to Floyd. There was just too much risk to doing something in the middle of the field on 3rd down unless you were POSITIVE that we'd get the 10 yards. So, instead, he threw something toward the sideline. Even the execution of that play was bad (don't know if that was on play-call, WR, QB, or some combination), because Doctson would have been in bounds if he caught that ball. But, the concept was fine...deep to the sideline - try to get a catch and out of bounds or a PI call. Otherwise, try to drill a long FG. 

[NeverSurrender]

8 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Among other things, I think Doug and company vastly underestimated the concept of Jay has a turn key offense. I personally think there is no such thing as some turn key offense that just makes any QB successful and ditto receivers regardless of their talent.   

 

I am picking on Doug because I recall him saying hey something to the effect of any QB will put up 4000 yards plus in a Jay offense.  I recall Bruce touting the Quick and Pryor signings and suggesting that should come close enough to replicating the production lost from D. Jax and Garcon. No and no.

 

My point is Jay isn't a perfect coach and isn't making lemonade out of lemons despite Doug-Bruce's unrealistic expectations.  And I can even argue maybe he's just an average coach.   Personally, I think he's good but if some want to argue average, I get that.   I disagree with those who think he's a bad coach.  If they go back to giving Jay a good QB and good weapons -- this team will put up points again.  If not, we are going to struggle IMO. 

 

If I had to pick on the two things I dislike about Jay it would be the lack of urgency the team seems to play with in do or die games.  For me personally, Jay saying later he didn't expect the Giants to play their starters for that long at the game that finished the 2016 season coupled with his I can't believe this is happening facial expressions during the game was an the low point for me.  Also, as good as a play designer he is, I think Jay is closer to an old school play caller (go with the gut, not a lot of innovative spread concepts, not much using metrics like the Eagles, etc do) and I don't love that.

 

But I do like his personality especially in the context of all the people I don't like above him.  He knows how to get an even mediocre WR corp open on plays.  He knows how to work with QBs.  He's a really good evaluator of college personnel and if we are going to dive deep into that well -- I trust Jay on that front way over anyone else in that building.  Do I think Jay is capable of winning a Superbowl here or elsewhere -- nope.  I don't see greatness in him.  But do I see the odds being high that they'd pick some coordinator elsewhere and that coach is a downgrade from Jay -- yeah I think the odds are good that happens.

 

So I am sort of where Laconfora was when asked about it the other day -- Jay is a decent coach.  If they go to the well again -- this isn't a desirable place to coach considering the owner (it goes double if Bruce stays), the QB situation and the cap situation so you aren't likely looking at the tier 1 of coaches but the next tier. 

 

Edit:  I'll add you got to judge any coach here on a curve.  And also you have to give extra credit to any coach who can deal with a mess above them.  Jay  gets extra points from me on both fronts.   Any coach to survive here has to be good at blocking out the crap that's thrown in their direction constantly -- Jay seems to be able to do that well and I think its his most underestimated value here by some. 

Great post,  I Wasnt to high on Jay when he first got here but I really think he has the perfect temperment to deal with DC/Snyder/Bruce.  I also think he gets better every year.  I dont get why people want him gone so much because I feel like there is no way we get someone better. 

[rabidskin]

On ‎12‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 7:53 AM, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

 

 

We will have to see, the 4-10 team had a very good defense and a pathetic offense. Just like us. But our coach managed to get 7 wins thus far instead of 4.

 

 

 

Everything you you say about bruce is correct.  I’m for canning him. Although, when he has decided to move on from players, he seems to be spot on. So objectively you gotta say moving on from djax and garçon was a good move. Vikes aren’t doing any better than us. I haven’t heard anything about fuller so idk about him.

 

 

That’s a matter of opinion, but even if it true, gruden can’t force someone to make football his sole focus in life. Gruden benched him for the rest of the season...

 

 

 

Thats the point ain’t you are completely missing. Gruden couldn’t have thrown a 10 yd pass and a Gruden didn’t throw into coverage. He’s not a qb.

1.  Vikings  ARE better than us...watch them go to the playoffs.  2.  No Gruden can't force a player...but that comes from the players you choose to be on your team and Gruden's choice for the active squad. 3.  Fuller average but better as a rookie last year than what we have on the field....case in point the great defensive back holding call on 3rd and long in the Tenn game  today … late in the 4th qtr. … which gave them a 1st down and led them to their Game winning TD.  4. No Gruden didn't throw it but he called the play.  QB has the headset on for a reason.  It was Gruden's call and he blew it just like the team did today again.  4th qtr meltdown with 4 1/2 minutes left...another Gruden finish.     Like I said 0-2 in the last 2 games and a 7-9 record in his 5th year.  Gruden is responsible for the coaches he chooses and it is his decisions that give us the franchise we have now, both offensively and defensively.   Time for a change as he can't field a winner much less a healthy team.  So much for the happy keyboard warriors that are continually satisfied with losing and have to search for anything positive to say, just to keep backing this debacle of a franchise. The Snyder reign has been a constant mess.  Bring back the good old days where HTTR meant respect.  So sad we can't even win the NFC East when everyone else is floundering.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

Gruden almost coached his 4th string qb to a victory but he threw a bad pick. His game plan was solid.

[rabidskin]

On ‎12‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 4:45 PM, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I want to zero in on the strategy you mentioned above...

 

When would you have thrown that easy 10-yard completion you described? We had a normal, mid-range pass that McCoy missed on 2nd down (remember, we spiked the ball on 1st down). So, we sat at 3rd-and-10 with 19 seconds to go. No timeouts and no ability to spike the ball if we don't get the 10 yards for a 1st down. I'd have loved to see what you described happen and actually work out...but there was so much risk there. 

 

We lost that game on the bad 2nd-down pass attempt to Floyd. There was just too much risk to doing something in the middle of the field on 3rd down unless you were POSITIVE that we'd get the 10 yards. So, instead, he threw something toward the sideline. Even the execution of that play was bad (don't know if that was on play-call, WR, QB, or some combination), because Doctson would have been in bounds if he caught that ball. But, the concept was fine...deep to the sideline - try to get a catch and out of bounds or a PI call. Otherwise, try to drill a long FG. 

no …     the 2nd down pass was midrange  15-20 yd. down the left sideline that went OB/incomplete and the 3rd down pass was 10 yd right sideline pass to Reed that was incomplete...then the 65 yd FG.  Point being that the middle was the weakest coverage and the calls made were against their strength and schemes to defend sidelines to prevent clock stoppage. the greatest chance was to hit a 10 yard middle slant on 2nd down.  Was less risky than throwing into coverage which clearly didn't work. Gruden's concept was much riskier and lowest chance for completing and getting OB.  Highest possibility was to complete the middle field pass and spike it on 2nd down.  Anyway...we keep finding ways to blow a game consistently...just like today at Tenn.

[Burgold]

If the Titan's game was the entire season, I'd say keep Jay. However, there were too many games where we came out flat and lost when we were closer to full strength. Too many games because we were out game planned and out hustled which made this game so crucial.

 

Jay deserves a lot of positive moral victory points for this game. It was a helluva effort and amazing that he almost pulled it off if it weren't for some really awful reffing and another defensive collapse.

 

I wouldn't be upset if Jay was here next year, though I'd be a bit frustrate. I would be upset if Bruce was retained. Bruce's record does not deserve a ten year run.

 

Edit: We've just had so many seasons that ended exactly this way. 4/5 years of almost, but well short. That I kind of what this purgatory to end.

[rabidskin]

15 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Gruden almost coached his 4th string qb to a victory but he threw a bad pick. His game plan was solid.

Yes, he did a better job this week and ran the ball more to keep drives going....too bad his pass defense is pathetic as it cost another loss.  This 4th string QB has played better than all the other QB's this year.