Renegade7 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 23 minutes ago, tshile said: The conversation quickly went to: it shouldn’t be hard for employers to accommodate pregnant women/new mothers. Which a few of us think is a bogus outlook. That’s how we got to here. Within 4 posts it went from how important encouraging having families was to that's not the private sectors problem in very dramatic fashion. The answer is obviously somewhere in the middle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegreaterbuzzette Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 3 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: Great Recession had something to do with it, there is a student debt crisis, health care is higher then it's ever been before, inflation, the fact affordable housing is becoming nonexistent in some parts of the country... I can think of a couple more. I'm a millennial and made it through, too, that doesnt mean I throw in people's face the fact I made it when research is backing this being a much more more difficult period for people starting off then previous times. This is a big picture discussion that trying to figure out who to blame or dump responsibility on isnt going to resolve. In this while staring a demographic timebomb in the face. I think its worthy of debate of causation. Student debt crisis, are we sure that people didn't go to schools waaaay outside their budget? And now have to pay for them? Health care is expensive, but ACA mandates employee cost for at least 1 plan must be around 10% of their pay. That should be do-able. Rising home costs - I had roommates, home ownership is something I didnt entertain until much later in life. And my mortgage is less than 2x my household income. Give me 100 Millenials who "cant afford life" I bet you at least 90% of them made repeated bad financial choices to get there. 6 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said: I am glad you made it out, but you are in a dual-income family. A lot of millennials don't have that. I'm a dual-income, 2 home family. All my families Bills are doubled and then some. I didnt get lucky. I put work into rebuilding myself from nothing. Repeatedly. And before you want to say I'm entitled or privileged. I came from very little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont Taze Me Bro Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 42 minutes ago, tshile said: @Dont Taze Me Bro you keep using phrases like “if the option is available” in terms of reassignment. I think if you try to craft and enforce legislation around “if the option is available” you’re going to find the results aren’t what you were looking for. But back to the general conversation, I think an important step is to be honest about the drag having a new child puts on people. It starts with pregnancy and through maternity leave, but it doesn’t stop there. It continues until the kid can operate somewhat independently. my oldest is 3 1/2 and I still can’t take a snow day and work from home and honestly call that work. I might get an hour or two where he’s occupied by the tv (which we hate doing so I don’t consider that and option anyways) but that’s at best. My 8 hour day is reduced to almost nothing. So I take the whole day. Kid being sick, doctors appointments, you getting sick... in addition, I don’t function well getting 2 hours of sleep at a time (like I currently get....) I maybe am getting 6 hours of sleep a night and it’s coming in spurts of 2-3 hours. Last week I went to bed at midnight and woke up at 4 to watch the newborn and 3 year old until 7 so my wife could take a break. Then I worked all day. Then I did **** around the house till midnight. I did that 3 days in a row. Anyone who thinks my productivity hasn’t been shot for the last two months is an idiot. And I’m the father in this situation, I’m significantly better off than my wife in this whole situation. The drag on the employer is real and needs to be recognized. I have a 10 year old, no need to preach to me about all the parental duties/obligations that go along with having a child. With that said, I kept it vague in saying "if other options were available" because I'm no legal expert by any means, but I'm sure it could be worded in a better way if it actually was written into the act. Also, the topic is about workplace conditions/requirements for pregnant women, which in some of the cases could have continued to work in their current task but were faced with supervisors that simply didn't give a ****. The discussion is not about how employers treat/react to their employees that have children when certain instances occur (e.g. sick child, MD appointment, etc.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 1 hour ago, tshile said: Even at large organizations replacing a higher up employee for 3 months is really difficult. You can’t just hire someone, there are temp services but they’re costly and the person won’t be up to speed, so naturally all the other (already overworked) people at that level pick up the slack. It's funny, but for higher-up people in white collar jobs, meaning people that don't NEED their current job, they can pick where they work, maternity/paternity benefits and perks to make starting a family easier have become a huge factor in the recruitment arms race. https://abovethelaw.com/2018/11/another-biglaw-firm-expands-their-parental-leave-with-new-benefits/ Quote The trend of Biglaw firms updating their parental leave policy to be gender neutral and more generous continues. Along those lines, [giant law firm] Fried Frank recently announced exciting new changes to their leave policies. ... All of this is in addition to the firm’s existing benefits designed to assist their employees including a breast milk delivery service for breastfeeding employees traveling for work, back up childcare, nursing rooms in each office, reduced work schedules for associates who are new parents for up to six months, and access to a 24/7 wellness program. All of which help make the challenging balancing act of a new family member with life in Biglaw just a little bit easier. https://abovethelaw.com/2018/10/more-good-news-on-the-parental-leave-front/ Quote Walden Macht & Haran LLP, a leading law firm for white collar defense, commercial litigation, and government investigations, recently launched a comprehensive maternity and parental leave program, designed to incentivize existing employees and attract talented recruits. The program offers up to 18 weeks of fully-paid maternity leave and up to 10 weeks of fully-paid, gender-neutral parental leave for primary caregivers of newborn children, newly-adopted children, or newly-placed foster children. Moreover, these leave periods are available to all eligible attorneys and staff. In addition, upon returning to work from a parental leave period of at least five consecutive weeks, a non-partner lawyer who is also a primary caregiver may elect a 16-week flex-time schedule with a workload reduction of up to 50% during the first eight weeks immediately following his or her return to work, followed by a 25% reduction for the second eight weeks. If flex-time is elected, the primary caregiver will continue to receive 100% pay, and performance expectations will be adjusted pro rata. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 35 minutes ago, thegreaterbuzzette said: I think its worthy of debate of causation. Student debt crisis, are we sure that people didn't go to schools waaaay outside their budget? And now have to pay for them? Health care is expensive, but ACA mandates employee cost for at least 1 plan must be around 10% of their pay. That should be do-able. Rising home costs - I had roommates, home ownership is something I didnt entertain until much later in life. And my mortgage is less than 2x my household income. Give me 100 Millenials who "cant afford life" I bet you at least 90% of them made repeated bad financial choices to get there. Causation? Do I need to pull out graphs to show how average college tuition and health care costs have exploded jus in our lifetime? For example, having a plan makes health care possible, not affordable. I've gone from $150 on a month jus on meds at one company to $200 per psychiatrist visit in network because because I haven't hit my deductible. I do cybersecurity for federal government and by time I finish my masters I will have over $100k in student loan debt. Could I have made better choices, I dont know, these seemes reasonable considering the 21st century economy, but that is an unnecessary amount of money compared to what other countries pay for the same thing. Just because someone is struggling doesnt mean they are idiots, I'm not too far removed from if my car broke down that ruined my entire month. My savings gone and everything harder because everything is more expensive. You cant manage money if you dont have any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooka Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 We're talking about retail here. We need to be honest, a retail hourly worker follows more of a social system then a capitalistic one. There are reasons why something like a universal income are considered on this country. What do i mean? The job is more for social benefit then financial. The incentives are all social incentives; better schedule, easier position, less dealing with the public, less accountability, insurance benefits, discounts, transportation, parking, etc. Ever receive excellent service at a retail store? That employee has almost zero incentive to give you excellent service. They most likely do so out of some sort of personal work ethic or personal responsibility. Making more money is not a really an incentive. Raises are systematic; i.e. 5-10% every review period. Ive worked data/it for the retail industry for the last 15years. There's a massive gap between a salary worker and an hourly one. My post doesnt have much to do with the specific topic btw. Apologies. 1 minute ago, thegreaterbuzzette said: I think its worthy of debate of causation. Student debt crisis, are we sure that people didn't go to schools waaaay outside their budget? And now have to pay for them? Health care is expensive, but ACA mandates employee cost for at least 1 plan must be around 10% of their pay. That should be do-able. Rising home costs - I had roommates, home ownership is something I didnt entertain until much later in life. And my mortgage is less than 2x my household income. Give me 100 Millenials who "cant afford life" I bet you at least 90% of them made repeated bad financial choices to get there. Eh... think you're kind of using your entire life experience to judge an 18 year old. Like millennials dont have roommates when they're complaining that housing is not affordable? Millenials dont buy affordable housing? As for college, we're talking about 18 year olds. How do you create a system that allows an 18 year old to go to college? Teenagers dont earn money. Everyone i know that worked their way through college did so as after much maturing, including myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted December 5, 2018 Author Share Posted December 5, 2018 31 minutes ago, thegreaterbuzzette said: I'm a dual-income, 2 home family. All my families Bills are doubled and then some. I didnt get lucky. I put work into rebuilding myself from nothing. Repeatedly. And before you want to say I'm entitled or privileged. I came from very little. 1 I was not going to call you or entitled or privileged. What I am going to say is you should read up on studies done on millennials. Your experience is not the norm. You need to look beyond yourself and start doing more research on how it is for others. I mean you own two homes while many millennials can't afford to pay rent on their own. Empathy and understanding would go along way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 28 minutes ago, thegreaterbuzzette said: Give me 100 Millenials who "cant afford life" I bet you at least 90% of them made repeated bad financial choices to get there. Er, if I gave you 100 people of any generation that "cant afford life" would you say they made repeated bad financial choices to get there? Or just millenials? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 There are so many broad strokes in here.... Re: Millennials: I am not someone who has been all that sympathetic to their plight all the time, but just throwing out that 90% of them are only in their current situation because of bad financial choices is quite ignorant and condescending. Re: Higher-Up Employees: It's ridiculous to equate high-earning employees with employees who don't need their jobs. Re: Beal: The guy gave a real-life example of how challenging these situations can be for the employer and was labeled a fascist. Christ guys. Onto the main topic, this isn't a simple issue. Sure, there are SOME of these that are simple like the woman who was moved to HARDER work AFTER she gave her employer the doctors note. That one is easy! Concessions do need to be made if they can, but some companies don't have that luxury or ability. So, what should be done for a woman who can't perform her duties or any other open jobs at the company? Is that FMLA? But generally speaking, having children does impact a given employee's availability and productivity at times. And that's both the father and the mother. I split custody of my 11 and 9 year olds and I have to drive them to two different schools, leave early sometimes for carpool, leave early sometimes to coach, be home sometimes for illness/snow/teach work days, etc. I volunteer for field trips, etc. As has been mentioned, if I'm home with kids even that old, it takes me a solid 12-13 hours to put in 8 hours of work (much better than it used to be, but still not as efficient). I disclosed all of this prior to joining this company so that it wouldn't come out of left field. I never once assumed it was something that I had earned or was guaranteed to me. I'm essentially working a flexible work arrangement without having to document it, so I'm appreciative. I try to make up for it on the days I don't have them and can get in earlier or stay later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Why am I Mr. Pink? Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 If youre 18, join the military for a few years, get college assistance, get benefits for life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 2 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said: Re: Higher-Up Employees: It's ridiculous to equate high-earning employees with employees who don't need their jobs. This was the point of my post, this issue doesn't effect people the same, it is stratified across class lines. It was also directed at someone who said it was too tough for a business to handle the absence of a higher level person; it's really not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 I apologize for my part in blowing this thing up. But I thought the article was kinda inflammatory...overtly visceral, even. So I tried to push back a little with some additional perspective. At the least, it led to some informative discussion. Still love you, @Destino! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 1 hour ago, thegreaterbuzzette said: And before you want to say I'm entitled or privileged. I came from very little. From my experience, at times, very little can separate those who've had everything given to them vs those who've come from very little and have triumphed, where few thought they could (maybe). Both personalities can potentially be very judgmental towards others they are more well off than, for different reasons. Many times, choices obviously just make you, and it really isn't anyone's fault. Doesn't really take a millennial (I am one), gen x'er, or anyone else to see that. That was a truly eye opening post though, considering that you are one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 52 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said: I have a 10 year old, no need to preach to me about all the parental duties/obligations that go along with having a child. That wasn’t what I was trying to do. Sorry When i said “but back to the general conversation” in my mind I was no longer talking to you, just blabbing in general to the general audience. As far as what you had to say, I was really just commenting on what (my view would be of) the end result looking like. Which I don’t think is what you (or I for that matter) would like. 53 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said: It's funny, but for higher-up people in white collar jobs, meaning people that don't NEED their current job, they can pick where they work, maternity/paternity benefits and perks to make starting a family easier have become a huge factor in the recruitment arms race. https://abovethelaw.com/2018/11/another-biglaw-firm-expands-their-parental-leave-with-new-benefits/ https://abovethelaw.com/2018/10/more-good-news-on-the-parental-leave-front/ I don’t think my wife would have such flexibility unless we wanted to drastically change our income or uproot our entire family. Everything in life is a choice. She chose to work where she works. All of that is sort of moot anyways because my comment that you quoted was about the impact to the employer. And the employer has a choice to not hire women that are likely to be pregnant for certain positions. And I absolutely know that happens. I think it’s a shame but I know it happens. I guarantee you that if I brought up having a third child my wife’s mind would immediately go to “... I’ll probably lose my job if we have another kid” its not right but I’m willing to be my life on that being the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 37 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said: Er, if I gave you 100 people of any generation that "cant afford life" would you say they made repeated bad financial choices to get there? Or just millenials? Its definitely not just millennials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 6 minutes ago, tshile said: I don’t think my wife would have such flexibility unless we wanted to drastically change our income or uproot our entire family. Everything in life is a choice. She chose to work where she works. All of that is sort of moot anyways because my comment that you quoted was about the impact to the employer. And the employer has a choice to not hire women that are likely to be pregnant for certain positions. And I absolutely know that happens. I think it’s a shame but I know it happens. I guarantee you that if I brought up having a third child my wife’s mind would immediately go to “... I’ll probably lose my job if we have another kid” its not right but I’m willing to be my life on that being the case. Oh I'm sure it happens. It's not legal, but it definitely happens. Meanwhile, the really smart companies hire the top-drawer female talent by treating them better on this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 Just now, PleaseBlitz said: Oh I'm sure it happens. It's not legal, but it definitely happens. Meanwhile, the really smart companies hire the top-drawer female talent by treating them better on this issue. Sure. I watch pitches on process reform regularly where the entire foundation of the argument like is “it works for smart companies chasing top tier talent” the other 90% of us live in a different world. I can appreciate that that there are women with top tier talent that are able to get jobs at companies that are trying to sent trends in society, including but not limited to maternity and pregnancy. Some are even offering paternity leave that’s not a joke. I think that should be necessary. I think it’s complete bull**** the man’s role in all this is reduced to essentially nothing (from a leave perspective) but not many care about that. But the rest of us live in a different environment. Those “smart companies” don’t have enough seats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 3 minutes ago, tshile said: Some are even offering paternity leave that’s not a joke. I think that should be necessary. I think it’s complete bull**** the man’s role in all this is reduced to essentially nothing (from a leave perspective) but not many care about that. Yeah, that's an aspect that hasn't caught up. Over the years, more women have entered the workforce and many men have taken on an increased role in parenting. Yet, when it comes to parental leave for the birth of a child, there's virtually no equality. Granted, the woman is the one who needs to physically recover so I would never expect anything close to equal there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 US is one of the few countries in the world that dont by law require maternity leave to fathers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 1 minute ago, tshile said: Sure. I watch pitches on process reform regularly where the entire foundation of the argument like is “it works for smart companies chasing top tier talent” the other 90% of us live in a different world. I can appreciate that that there are women with top tier talent that are able to get jobs at companies that are trying to sent trends in society, including but not limited to maternity and pregnancy. Some are even offering paternity leave that’s not a joke. I think that should be necessary. I think it’s complete bull**** the man’s role in all this is reduced to essentially nothing (from a leave perspective) but not many care about that. But the rest of us live in a different environment. Those “smart companies” don’t have enough seats. I think it's much, much broader than you think. Amazon takes parental leave so seriously, even spouses get paid time off https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/05/amazon-takes-paid-parental-leave-so-seriously-even-spouses-get-it.html 19 companies that offer some of the best parental leave policies in America https://www.businessinsider.com/the-best-parental-leave-policies-in-america-2016-5 includes This includes: Netflix Adobe Facebook Google Twitter Microsoft Paypal Johnson & Johnson Square Reddit Bank of America Ernst & Young Accenture Spotify A Record Number of Companies Are Increasing Paid Family Leave in 2018 https://www.workingmother.com/2018-might-see-record-number-companies-increasing-paid-parental-leave Quote In fact, more than one in three U.S. employers offers paid maternity leave beyond the amount required by law, up from one in six in 2011, according to new data from the Society for Human Resource Management (SHRM), Bloomberg reports. And all 20 of the biggest companies in the U.S. offer at least some paid maternity leave. It's not just that more companies are offering the benefit for the first time—many are also expanding the plans they already had in place, sweetening the pot so their star employees don't quit. Since late 2017, an increasing number of private employers have expanded their paid maternity leave and paternity leave offerings, some doing so dramatically. Why? It makes business sense in a war for talent. According to SHRM, more than 700 of the 1,012 organizations surveyed said that increased benefit offerings in the last year were meant specifically to retain talent. And thus far, the federal government and all but six states aren’t providing new parents with the paid time off they need. I'm certain that I can keep going. Also, paternity leave isn't so uncommon that it's unheard of. About 15% of US companies offer paid paternity leave and that number is rising rapidly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 8 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said: I'm certain that I can keep going. Also, paternity leave isn't so uncommon that it's unheard of. About 15% of US companies offer paid paternity leave and that number is rising rapidly. It's a thing now...but 15% isn't necessarily a metric that anyone wanting equality would be proud of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 11 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said: It's a thing now...but 15% isn't necessarily a metric that anyone wanting equality would be proud of. Actually, according to the Society for Human Resource Management (which is in Alexandria), in 2018 the % of employers offering paid paternity leave is 29%, up from 21% just in 2016. That's a huge increase in 2 years. That's compared to 35% for maternity leave, so it's not too far off. I'm getting this from page 11 here: https://www.shrm.org/hr-today/trends-and-forecasting/research-and-surveys/Documents/2018 Employee Benefits Report.pdf Edit: And **** equality, I didn't just pop an 8 pound object out of my body after carrying it around for 9 months. There IS NO equality to be had here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 Well there you go...I stand corrected. I had no idea paid maternity leave was only at 35%...that definitely provides good context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Why am I Mr. Pink? Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 1 hour ago, tshile said: its not right but I’m willing to bet my life on that being the case. I accept. How do we do this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegreaterbuzzette Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 1 hour ago, PleaseBlitz said: Er, if I gave you 100 people of any generation that "cant afford life" would you say they made repeated bad financial choices to get there? Or just millenials? All generations. Millenials were just the generation that was discussed as being so much more worse off then others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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