TheGreek1973 Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 I will stop on saying anything after that atrocious officiating game yesterday. if you guys think we can evaluate ANY of our players after the refs basically gave the game to Atlanta first half there isn't much to say. I know for many its an excuse, but when THREE plays that were affected by calls and non-calls basically changed the entire game I can't blame the players. Blantant holding on 3rd and long that let to Atlanta's 2nd TD WR pick that let to Atlanta's 3rd TD Bogus holding call on Moses that stopped us trying a gimme FG At most at the half the game is 14-10. And there were many others, including that daunting call on Doctson which was laughable. Even Moses yesterday exploded. That is all I am going to say about this game, no Alex sucks, or our D was outplayed etc. You can't play your game when they cut your knees off like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted November 5, 2018 Author Share Posted November 5, 2018 This isn't the thread for evaluating the Atlanta game, this is big picture thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobandweave Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 47 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said: By the way, I would be perfectly fine with this. I understand that Gruden hasn't wow'd anyone but there are a couple dynamics at play: 1) He's shown he can work here and has actually raised the bar slightly to a team that is consistently competitive and seems to have a 6-7 win floor (which sadly is a massive improvement) 2) It would make sense to go ahead and keep Gruden as long as you're married to Smith. Two more years of Gruden and Smith (which also aligns with the primes of Kerrigan and Williams) just seems to make sense. I'm a fan of the things lining up...it wouldn't make much sense to bring in some new coach and say "OK, we can't move on from Smith for 2 more years, so best of luck to you!" When it's time for that new coach, I'd rather him have the flexibility to say "Here's the QB I want and we may as well draft a new OL anchor because Williams is 33..." Completely understand your point however to me I've always thought that Alex was a bridge QB for us. Bridge QBs lead a team from one guy to the next guy while maintaining a positive team record without needing to pull an Indianapolis type move - Great one year, suck the next to get the star QB in the draft, draft the QB and hope to be great again. Bridge QB's lead to things like Kansas City has where they were a playoff team last year with Smith, this year they are a playoff team with Mahomes. Didn't miss a beat If Alex is the bridge I hope he is then keeping Gruden past this year to me says two things: 1. Drafting the next QB has to be done with the okay from the next head coach. Tough to do unless they go with a college coach otherwise risk taking a QB next draft to groom for the future the new coach doesn't want. 2. Jay Gruden has to stay to see the next QB through. What sense does it make to fire him without seeing if his plan worked. I will be the first to say if Alex Smith is not used as a bridge QB then the front office screwed up royally. Provided they use Alex for what he is then this is a fine plan moving forward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsailand Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 15 hours ago, bobandweave said: There is a historic over 80% chance a team wins in this league when they win the turnover battle Besides the obvious that turnovers are bad, part of this is that when a team is losing, they take more risks. If they're lucky, the risks lead to scores. If they're unlucky, they lead to turnovers. So the cause and effect goes in both directions. (Unlike with the dumb 100 yard RB = win stat, where the cause is winning and the effect is the 100 yard RB). Furthermore, if you asked me to name a QB who can still lose you the game even when you win the turnover battle, I'd point to Alex Smith. And if you asked me to name a QB who can win you the game despite losing the turnover battle, I'd point to our 2015-2017 QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobandweave Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 42 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said: This all coming from a guy who follows Alex Smith around the league, to the extent he creates a Redskins-related screenname, poses as a Redskins fan, hopelessly defends Alex Smith throughout the summer, gets smoked out as an AlexStan 49ers "fan", and the list goes on. I have no idea what your talking about or what AlexStan 49ers fan is. Was that directed at me? I have been here a lot longer then Alex Smith and god willing if I can continue to avoid "Hi there's" and continue to get the patient good graces of thesubmitedone will continue to be here well after Alex Smith is gone. I have only been on the Alex Smith bandwagon here because I think his bridge QB success in San Fran and on the Chiefs can be good for us. I'm not an Alex Smith fanpersay as much I am a Redskins fan. I am in my 40's and remember the good days of this franchise and the awful ones. My hope is good days are ahead for us. Alex Smith is just a tool to get respectable again. 42 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said: Please stop acting like all the sudden folks are riled up about Smith's ineptitude after yesterday. Yesterday was just more of the same but Mr. All-he-does-is-win didn't win this time. If you don't like folks accurately critiquing this lame quarterback you weirdly fancy enough to do all the stuff I mentioned at the top of my post, it's probably best to just log off for a while. I don't dislike people wanting to see more from Alex. I want that too. I don't like the sudden appearance of lets run him out of town and screw up our salary cap and waste draft picks to this end posts. This is a plan that has shown to work in the league. The bridge plan must be followed through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJHJR86 Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 13 minutes ago, bobandweave said: Completely understand your point however to me I've always thought that Alex was a bridge QB for us. You don't trade and then extend a QB millions to be a bridge QB. He was brought here to "win now". That mantra has been repeatedly by the head coach and FO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morneblade Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 2 minutes ago, bobandweave said: I have no idea what your talking about or what AlexStan 49ers fan is. Was that directed at me? I have been here a lot longer then Alex Smith and god willing if I can continue to avoid "Hi there's" and continue to get the patient good graces of thesubmitedone will continue to be here well after Alex Smith is gone. He was not referring to you. That was at Sandy Monk, specifically, I think. But there are several others. 2 minutes ago, bobandweave said: I have only been on the Alex Smith bandwagon here because I think his bridge QB success in San Fran and on the Chiefs can be good for us. I'm not an Alex Smith fanpersay as much I am a Redskins fan. I am in my 40's and remember the good days of this franchise and the awful ones. My hope is good days are ahead for us. Alex Smith is just a tool to get respectable again. How is he going to do that? And what exactly is this "bridge QB". you keep talking about? 2 minutes ago, bobandweave said: I don't dislike people wanting to see more from Alex. I want that too. I don't like the sudden appearance of lets run him out of town and screw up our salary cap and waste draft picks to this end posts. This is a plan that has shown to work in the league. The bridge plan must be followed through. Explain this plan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbias Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 So based on what many of you have posted we can move on next year, but it would have cost us $38.8M in cap space over 2 years (2018 = $18.4M, 2019 = $20.4M), but we'd also be without a QB going into 2019 with only ~$18.8M in cap space. Add in that Smith cost us a third-round pick and cornerback Kendall Fuller (granted we got a 3rd back for the following draft, but still) this has probably been one of the must cluster-fudged moves of this franchise. Look at how dumb Arizona was to sign Bradford (who also failed), but then follow up by drafting Rosen. Bradford was cheaper than Smith will end up being and we could have tried to get to 9 to take Rosen or move back 10 picks, get additional picks and take Lamar Jackson. Anyway this is just so annoying. For once in our lives we actually had QB we drafted and developed in Cousins. There are as many haters as lovers of Kirk, but overall we screwed up that extension so bad that now we've messed up the most important position in football while still using up cap space. What's left? Send a 1st the Eagles for Foles or maybe a first to Ravens for a washed up Flacco? Heck, maybe sign Bradford after he's cut just to start 3 games until we realize he's horrible/injured. How about send the Bills a 3rd rounder trade for Nathan Peterman just for show? We mind as well make the entire thing comical, because it's easier to laugh than cry... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted November 5, 2018 Author Share Posted November 5, 2018 9 minutes ago, Tsailand said: Besides the obvious that turnovers are bad, part of this is that when a team is losing, they take more risks. If they're lucky, the risks lead to scores. If they're unlucky, they lead to turnovers. So the cause and effect goes in both directions. (Unlike with the dumb 100 yard RB = win stat, where the cause is winning and the effect is the 100 yard RB). Furthermore, if you asked me to name a QB who can still lose you the game even when you win the turnover battle, I'd point to Alex Smith. And if you asked me to name a QB who can win you the game despite losing the turnover battle, I'd point to our 2015-2017 QB. I'll add that we have close to a century of historical data pointing that the team that scores the most points wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 6 minutes ago, bobandweave said: I have no idea what your talking about or what AlexStan 49ers fan is. Was that directed at me? I have been here a lot longer then Alex Smith and god willing if I can continue to avoid "Hi there's" and continue to get the patient good graces of thesubmitedone will continue to be here well after Alex Smith is gone. No, I was talking to SandyMonk. No worries from me, I'm not the type to whine to the mods and make their jobs more difficult than need be. 9 minutes ago, bobandweave said: I have only been on the Alex Smith bandwagon here because I think his bridge QB success in San Fran and on the Chiefs can be good for us. No, I recall directly our conversations well before the Alex Smith trade was even real. You certainly were the pioneer of that argument. Perhaps Bruce gets his ideas from the message board and stole the idea from you? ? However I'd imagine when you first brought up this idea of Alex Smith, you envisioned paying him less in terms of guaranteed money. I don't think any of us expected 70+ guaranteed but shame on us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobandweave Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 29 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said: The back half of this season will set the course for the next 5 years...as crazy as it sounds, if it's 2008 Zorn-esque, I think we should consider completely tearing down the coaches and offense. There's virtually NO youth to build around on that side of the ball outside of a couple linemen and the injured RB. I'd bring in a new staff (hopefully with a new front office) and gift them with a young and rising defense, a young stud RB, and let them see what they can do with the rest of the roster. I would be fine, in that scenario, trading guys like Williams, Reed, etc. to replenish some draft picks and lean on the D for a couple years as we build a young offense. Cutting the fat like Josh Norman must be done next offseason. I have argued that the past several weeks and yesterday with his penalties it should have showed everyone that I am right about this. He costs 12% of the total cap and will be 32 during next season. Not to mention the highest priced CB in the game today. Cutting Jordan Reed isn't something I think they should do. He will still be on the right side of 30, and TE is awfully thin. I don't think that Vernon Davis is going to be here next season and behind those two they have no pass catchers at the position. They won't have a ton of cap room to play with either. They have draft picks but TE's have a hell of a time getting used to the two positions they have to learn to play in this league immediately (oline and pass catcher). Not to mention the cap ramifications of cutting him. If they wait until 2020 to cut him then they will lose 1.8 million in dead cap money but save 8.5 million. Doing that next season they would lose 3.6 and gain 6.1. I honestly don't think any team would trade more than a very low round pick for Reed and he's worth more to us then that. Williams may be worth exploring a possible trade because he has a much better reputation then Reed but his value not only has taken a hit due to his rash of injuries but also his cost. He is going to cost them 14.75 million on the salary cap next year. That's too much for what he's giving them right now. Problem with cutting him is looking at the cap numbers cut him in 2019 and the teams got dead money hit of 5 million and a savings of only 9 million. Wait until 2020 and his dead money hit would be 1.9 million but the savings would be 12.75 million. I think it makes more sense to wait until 2020 to move on with him. I completely agree with you on the coaches. This is the year to move on from Jay if that's what they want to do, waiting hurts them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobandweave Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 21 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said: You don't trade and then extend a QB millions to be a bridge QB. He was brought here to "win now". That mantra has been repeatedly by the head coach and FO. I think like this. You can disagree with this but there are three types of QBs in the league today Franchise QBs - Best QBs in the league, white whales of the league every team hopes to get one of these. They are the teams present and future. They aren't expected to "win now" and teams are very patient with these guys. These types of QB's leave a team never worrying about the QB future of a team. Outlook to a team 5-15 years. Long term answers. After rookie deals these guys either become a Franchise QB and lead their teams to championships or they don't and they ruin teams because of how expensive they are. ^^Alex Smith is not this Bridge QB's - Bridge QB's are expected to win now. They are expected to keep a team going but are not in a teams long term (5 years or more) plans. They are the QB that's Mr. Right Now for the next few years but not quite Franchise level for whatever reason. There job is to keep the position seat warm while the franchise hopes to find the Franchise guy and build a team around that player. Bridge QBs are in a teams medium range time plans because bridge QB's are expected to help the next QB become good. The reason teams go with this approach is because it takes more than a Franchise QB to win in this league and the competitive advantage and cap flexibility that rookie QB deals give teams now is not to be understated. They are also a rebuilding coaches best friend. Coaches have to win now to keep their jobs. Bridge QB's can do this for the coaches. ^^ Alex Smith is this The Rest - These guys are mercenaries. Whatever happens with those guys is anyone's guess. They are the free agent QB's who have no future and are cast off from previous team. They are Mr. Unknowns. No future and completely unknown how long they will be around. Case Keenums and Sam Bradfords of the world. These guys cost as much as Bridge QBs but no long term commitments. ^^ Alex Smith is not this You extend Bridge QB's because the plan for them is different then the Rest. You expect bridge QB's to teach the next guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexa Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 To me the only solution is to draft a QB next year and let him compete for the job. You have to draft a QB, play him next year, deal with his ups and downs. End of discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morneblade Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 3 minutes ago, Alexa said: To me the only solution is to draft a QB next year and let him compete for the job. You have to draft a QB, play him next year, deal with his ups and downs. End of discussion. That's fine and all, but what do you do with Alex's contract? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobandweave Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 48 minutes ago, Unbias said: So based on what many of you have posted we can move on next year, but it would have cost us $38.8M in cap space over 2 years (2018 = $18.4M, 2019 = $20.4M), but we'd also be without a QB going into 2019 with only ~$18.8M in cap space. Add in that Smith cost us a third-round pick and cornerback Kendall Fuller (granted we got a 3rd back for the following draft, but still) this has probably been one of the must cluster-fudged moves of this franchise. To me its premature to say that about this move. Say the Redskins are like the 49ers and the Chiefs with Alex Smith. Where they end up drafting the hopeful franchise QB and he learns from Alex Smith until the day that he takes over like Colin Kapernick and Patrick Mahomes did. If the Redskins do that and use Alex like the bridge QB he has shown to be successful at then this trade will not be a failure. 48 minutes ago, Unbias said: Look at how dumb Arizona was to sign Bradford (who also failed), but then follow up by drafting Rosen. Bradford was cheaper than Smith will end up being and we could have tried to get to 9 to take Rosen or move back 10 picks, get additional picks and take Lamar Jackson. Nothing we have seen this year says that Lamar Jackson who was the 32nd pick of the draft is ever going to become a Franchise QB. Currently he looks like a gadget player. Maybe that changes one day but from what we've seen its way too premature to say he will be a Franchise QB in this league. As for trading up that would have been awful. This team needs more draft picks, not less. This is not yet a team that should be trading what Arizona did to get Rosen moving from 15 to 9 cost them it's first, third, and fifth round picks. Arizona was premature to do that. They won't be good for years because of this move. They aren't one QB away from being good. 48 minutes ago, Unbias said: Send a 1st the Eagles for Foles or maybe a first to Ravens for a washed up Flacco? Heck, maybe sign Bradford after he's cut just to start 3 games until we realize he's horrible/injured. How about send the Bills a 3rd rounder trade for Nathan Peterman just for show? We mind as well make the entire thing comical, because it's easier to laugh than cry... Just because Flacco and Foles won the superbowl doesn't mean either is worth our first round pick. They aren't. Bradford signed for 20 million, he wasn't "cheap" and he isn't a bridge QB either. As for Nate Peterman I guess your wanting the team to tank which would cost many jobs here. If your a fan of any of the coaches here they would be fired for moves like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexa Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 7 minutes ago, Morneblade said: That's fine and all, but what do you do with Alex's contract? You have to ride it out, keep him on the roster and fire whomever was dumb enough to hand him all that money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobandweave Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 8 minutes ago, Alexa said: To me the only solution is to draft a QB next year and let him compete for the job. You have to draft a QB, play him next year, deal with his ups and downs. End of discussion. I think you have part of it right. Drafting a QB is what the team should do next year. They will have between 9-11 draft picks to use to move up. The idea that he plays immediately or "competes" for a job as a rookie is silly to me. How many QBs get to sit and soak in for a year in the league? Not enough of them. When they do get that chance when they play they end up saying sitting helped them more than anything else. Moving on from Alex means the draft pick has no time to grow and has massive expectations on him from day one. That's not good. Maybe give the rookie the last game of the season to play and show something like Pat Mahomes last season, but the whole season? Bad idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexa Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 And no way do I want Flacco or Foles. I want to new drafted player that has some mobility. I want Tua from Alabama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morneblade Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 Just now, Alexa said: You have to ride it out, keep him on the roster and fire whomever was dumb enough to hand him all that money. Ok, but this is going to cause a lot of issues. 1. Is there a QB we think is worth taking? 2. Will he be available when we pick? 3. Do we trade up (and loose more picks) to get him? 4. Do you trust our evaluators? 5. Do you trust the people that are supposed to groom the QB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 Just find a frisky but limited gunslinger with severe ball-security issues in the 4th round. Boom! Redskins QB problem solved! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 16 hours ago, Renegade7 said: Maybe its a good idea to post from that site as well: I'm not sure if I see the "breaking even" with cutting Norman (even though I'm not against it anyway), can you show me what you are talking about? Looks like you need some new drawers bro. 1 minute ago, TryTheBeal! said: Just find a frisky but limited gunslinger with severe ball-security issues in the 4th round. Boom! Redskins QB problem solved! What's Colt Brennan up to these days? Is he too busy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 1 minute ago, TryTheBeal! said: Just find a frisky but limited gunslinger with severe ball-security issues in the 4th round. Boom! Redskins QB problem solved! Ask said player to do as little as Smith, and those ball security issues tend to disappear. A lot of folks can hand the ball off and make a throw every now and again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morneblade Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 Just now, TryTheBeal! said: Just find a frisky but limited gunslinger with severe ball-security issues in the 4th round. Boom! Redskins QB issues solved! Well, they were. With that guy. You're agenda is showing again. You might want to fix it, it's not pretty. Personally, I'd take the 17 TD's and nearly 2700 yards right now over the cluster**** we have now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted November 5, 2018 Author Share Posted November 5, 2018 2 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said: Looks like you need some new drawers bro. They might not of had a profile on me yet : ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 Fear not my broken-hearted, pining for the glory days of 2016...Shea Patterson is coming to make your heart whole again! And he’s gonna do it all on a 4yr/$3.5M deal!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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