When Can We Get Out of the Alex Smith Contract???

[Skinsinparadise]

26 minutes ago, joeken24 said:

 

I still believe Gruden needs to adjust to his players. The coach's job is to make sure the player succeeds. Right now, Alex is struggling. It seems like Gruden is of the mind set that Alex needs to learn Grudens offense to be successful. **** that!!! Gruden needs to learn Alex and call plays accordingly.

 

Joe Gibbs had to learn that and won SBs

https://www.upi.com/Sports_News/NFL/2016/09/29/How-Bill-Belichick-Joe-Gibbs-and-Bill-Walsh-mastered-NFL-QB-changes/7141475171488/

 

 

 

I've said before if people want to have Alex's back and defend his play -- I'd turn hard against Jay but not for the reasons IMO you express.  Jay's system is getting WRs open.   I've shown clip after clip that guys get open. And i am not the only one who has done so, just check twitter, check Cooley's film reviews on and on. 

 

But Jay isn't traditionally a big fan of conservative QB play.   I think either he talked himself into this new narrative about the new Alex isn't conservative anymore or someone in the FO talked him into it.  But I don't think if Alex plays in this style its going to be a long honeymoon with Jay.  

[joeken24]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Don't doubt that he needs more time to get comfortable.   He's a bit of a victim of the high expectations from Jay and the FO in the off season.  The idea of how smart he is, and the play book is already more expansive than before.  I said so in the off season.

 

 

I'd give him a much bigger break if I saw accuracy.  But I always thought he was an accurate QB.  So when I say I think he will improve, its mostly about this point.  If its just conservative play, it would be one thing.  Just chemistry with receivers, I'd get that too.  But the bad misses to open receivers -- that's my issue because that's typically not about the system or chemistry -- those are just some bad throws. 

 

 

I haven't really seen this.  In the Arizona game it was a ridiculous number of short passes.  I was at that game so I paid more attention on that front.   Alex YPA numbers would indicate a mega number of short passes -- ranked 28th in the NFL on that front.  I just picked a game randomly and re-watched the first half offense against the Giants.  Every play i watched aside from two were 3 step drops or shorter than that. 

 

I see a theme cooking in your post that this is on Jay to some degree.  I'd agree if receivers weren't getting open.  Jay's reputation is being a great play designer who knows how to get receivers open.  If you slow down the coaches tape you can see they are actually getting these C level receivers open.  Alex seems the weaker link IMO in the operation at the moment versus the receivers as to the passing game.

 

Having said that, he did play better against Atlanta.  They are about to face another atrocious pass defense so maybe that's the recipe to get things right.  I agree with your point about confidence.  I think he and the passing game needs a big game hopefully to break out of the funk. If this O line can protect him, its the perfect storm to break out.  The Tampa defense is actually setting a record for most points allowed.  

 

If this is about defending Alex.  I am not blaming Jay but blaming the FO.  He could use a WR who can give you YAC.   His receivers can get open and have gotten open.  But they don't have any explosive players in the passing game.  And a guy who can take a hitch or whatever and take it to the house.  The Falcons put a clinic on in YAC last Sunday.  We have nobody that produces YAC.  That's why I keep hammering we need Thompson back badly. 

 

 

 

Agreed.

[joeken24]

2 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Not sure how you can say in “fairness” and include the Colts game where the D gave up 21 points and picked Luck off twice, while the Redskins offense mustered a measly 9 points.  The Colts game is a good example of a game where folks say “Alex didn’t lose us the game” just because he didn’t turn it over a bunch.  On the contrary, I think Alex’s performance as a passer was the biggest contributor to losing the game.

I suppose you have a point there. But the defense did give up a lot of points to an offense that was supposedly struggling. But I'll give you that, and take the 21 points away (81 point given up still stinks). Alex needs to improve don't get me wrong. I'm just saying that its not abnormal for a QB to struggle in this offensive scheme. Find a NFL QB that has balled out in this offense.

 

 

[Morneblade]

5 minutes ago, joeken24 said:

I suppose you have a point there. But the defense did give up a lot of points to an offense that was supposedly struggling. But I'll give you that, and take the 21 points away (81 point given up still stinks). Alex needs to improve don't get me wrong. I'm just saying that its not abnormal for a QB to struggle in this offensive scheme.

 

 

 

Are you for real? It's a VERY QB friendly system.

 

I guess you forgot about 2016 as well.

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

5 minutes ago, joeken24 said:

I suppose you have a point there. But the defense did give up a lot of points to an offense that was supposedly struggling. But I'll give you that, and take the 21 points away (81 point given up still stinks). Alex needs to improve don't get me wrong. I'm just saying that its not abnormal for a QB to struggle in this offensive scheme. Find a NFL QB that has balled out in this offense.

 

 

You won’t get an argument from me that the defense was bad in both the Saints and Falcons games.  That said, the defense provided a turnover in each of those games while still very within reach only for the offense to squander them.  

 

Af the end of the day, Alex just hasn’t shown the ability to hit his drop and fire.      That’s this offense, that’s most offenses.  The ball has to come out.  On the first TD Drive against the Falcons, he was getting the ball out on time and accurately.  Other than that, I just haven’t seen it much.  He starts dancing around, doesn’t get everything under his throws and they come out ugly.  From what I’m reading, this isn’t anything new for him.  We don’t have the time or personnel he needs to get comfortable in this offense.  

[joeken24]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I've said before if people want to have Alex's back and defend his play -- I'd turn hard against Jay but not for the reasons IMO you express.  Jay's system is getting WRs open.   I've shown clip after clip that guys get open. And i am not the only one who has done so, just check twitter, check Cooley's film reviews on and on. 

 

But Jay isn't traditionally a big fan of conservative QB play.   I think either he talked himself into this new narrative about the new Alex isn't conservative anymore or someone in the FO talked him into it.  But I don't think if Alex plays in this style its going to be a long honeymoon with Jay.  

That's fine. But again, the art of winning is not finding the perfect QB for "your" system. Its about coaching the QB you have to excel at the position. Its like a good teacher. Joe Gibbs won because he was good at that. Belichick wins with whatever QB he plugs in. Jay has got to understand that. If he doesn't, the Skins will be drafting another QB or bringing in the "next best FA" and be right back in this **** again. Maybe Doug has a come to Jesus moment with Jay about that very concept. Doug was a recipient of what a good coach can do for a QBs career. And you know Doug, Mark and Joe were totally different QBs. In the meantime, (and I repeat) there hasn't been one NFL QB that has balled out under Gruden's system. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, joeken24 said:

That's fine. But again, the art of winning is not finding the perfect QB for "your" system. Its about coaching the QB you have to excel at the position. Its like a good teacher. Joe Gibbs won because he was good at that. Belichick wins with whatever QB he plugs in. Jay has got to understand that. If he doesn't, the Skins will be drafting another QB or bringing in the "next best FA" and be right back in this **** again. Maybe Doug has a come to Jesus moment with Jay about that very concept. Doug was a recipient of what a good coach can do for a QBs career. And you know Doug, Mark and Joe were totally different QBs. In the meantime, (and I repeat) there hasn't been one NFL QB that has balled out under Gruden's system. 

 

Jay’s had Alex for 8 games, with less weapons than Alex had in his last stint. It took Andy Reid 4 seasons and a big armed QB waiting in the wings to finally light a fire under his ass to push the ball down the field.

[joeken24]

38 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

Are you for real? It's a VERY QB friendly system.

 

I guess you forgot about 2016 as well.

 

Ok. So what was the variable in that 2016 season? Small, explosive WRs (that can catch the damn ball and make plays I might add). The same WRs that Gruden says he does not prefer. He even said #8 would need to get used to the tall receivers. Again, making the offense about his preference instead of what has worked. So Gruden brings in a bunch of lurch receivers with no ball skills and the offense struggles. Alex came from that same small explosive WR corps in KC. Maybe he's going through the same adjustment.

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/washington-redskins/jay-gruden-says-qb-kirk-cousins-will-have-adjust-redskins-taller-wide-receivers

[joeken24]

9 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

Jay’s had Alex for 8 games, with less weapons than Alex had in his last stint. It took Andy Reid 4 seasons and a big armed QB waiting in the wings to finally light a fire under his ass to push the ball down the field.

Lets be clear about the weapons Alex had in KC:

 

2015 - Dwayne Bowe (currently working on his rap career) and Albert Wilson 

2016 - KC's starting WRs were Jeremy Maclin (who btw is still trying to get in the league) and Albert Wilson with Jamaal Charles at the RB.

2017 - They added Hill and Hunt at RB. Alex took advantage of his weapons. 

 

That would be 1 season with legitimate weapons.

 

 

[Morneblade]

12 minutes ago, joeken24 said:

Ok. So what was the variable in that 2016 season? Small, explosive WRs (that can catch the damn ball and make plays I might add). The same WRs that Gruden says he does not prefer. He even said #8 would need to get used to the tall receivers. So Gruden brings in a bunch of lurch receivers with no ball skills. Alex came from that same small explosive WR corps in KC. Maybe he's going through the same adjustment.

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/washington-redskins/jay-gruden-says-qb-kirk-cousins-will-have-adjust-redskins-taller-wide-receivers

 

In 2016 Cousins had some play makes and a relatively healthy OL.

 

In 2017, he had no play makers, and a MASH unit of a OL. And still looked better than the 14 year vet.

 

Andy Dalton had his best years in Gruden's system. Dalton is a average QB, but looked good in it. Trying to blame Jay's system for Alex stinking up the joint is silly. It's a system that gets guys open, even if they are not all that good.

 

Now, if you want to contend that Alex is not a good fit, I'd agree with you. But it's not because it's a system that is tough on what you would consider a prototype NFL QB. It's tough on a QB that is NOT a prototypical QB.

[joeken24]

1 hour ago, Morneblade said:

 

In 2016 Cousins had some play makes and a relatively healthy OL.

 

In 2017, he had no play makers, and a MASH unit of a OL. And still looked better than the 14 year vet.

 

Andy Dalton had his best years in Gruden's system. Dalton is a average QB, but looked good in it. Trying to blame Jay's system for Alex stinking up the joint is silly. It's a system that gets guys open, even if they are not all that good.

 

Now, if you want to contend that Alex is not a good fit, I'd agree with you. But it's not because it's a system that is tough on what you would consider a prototype NFL QB. It's tough on a QB that is NOT a prototypical QB.

I'm not all in on Alex. But I'm not all in on Gruden either. I'm just saying if a QB can do well in one system, go to another system and not do so well, one has to take a look at the system. For example, just about every QB that departed Belichick's offense went somewhere else and sharted themselves. So is it the QB's ability or is it the system they're in? I won't even start in on you with Andy Dalton. As a native of Cincinnati, I can tell you that you're simply wrong. 

 

I believe we all want Alex to succeed here. If Alex succeeds, the Redskins succeed. If Jay wants to succeed, he has to figure out a way to help Alex prosper. If that means, bringing in a Golden Tate type, so ****in' be it. But you can't have some ****ing height preference override what could possibly work. That's bull****. I'm all for every player on this team, playing at the highest level. I could give a damn about "Gruden's system" over that. Does Gruden's system have a ring? No. Does Andy Dalton have a ring? No Does #8 have a ring? No And yes does Alex Smith have a ring? No

So what you have is no success across the board. So take Jay off the pedestal and make him accountable for creating success. Its his ****ing job. If its Gruden's way or the highway with every QB that comes here, why on earth would you be good with that? Further if Gruden is so hell bent on ensuring his system is the be all end all, then damnit, why be so nonchalant during the pre-season? I'm sure you were there when Alex played a couple downs in the first game without his starters. I'm sure you were there when Gruden acted like the 3rd pre-season game was not an important time for Alex and his receivers to get on the same page. I'm sure you were there when most of Gruden's weekly interviews include veteran days off and WRs listed as limited. Gruden runs a loose shift and it shows in just about every game. So don't trick yourself into thinking that Gruden is some guru. He's not and his record indicates it. Now with that said, he can hold himself accountable, make some damn adjustments to his "scheme" and possibly see success from his QB and the offense. Of course Alex needs to do the same. But its no denying that he needs serious help at the WR position.

 

And BTW, that prototype QB garbage is for somebody that don't know **** about football. Whatever category you want to place Alex in means absolutely nothing. The fact that the Redskins brought Alex in as their starting QB means that they believe they can win with him. Not run gruden's system like he likes it.That's college and high school ****. If Gruden can't coach a successful offense, he needs to step aside and hire someone that will. Remember his first year, he tried this **** only to hand it off to McVay. 

[Morneblade]

1 hour ago, joeken24 said:

I'm not all in on Alex. But I'm not all in on Gruden either. I'm just saying if a QB can do well in one system, go to another system and not do so well, one has to take a look at the system. For example, just about every QB that departed Belichick's offense went somewhere else and sharted themselves. So is it the QB's ability or is it the system they're in? I won't even start in on you with Andy Dalton. As a native of Cincinnati, I can tell you that you're simply wrong. 

 

Alex is playing like Alex. You're not clear here, but you seem to be saying that Alex played well under Reid, but not so much under Gruden. Is that correct? If that is what you are saying................................to use your words, you're simply wrong.

 

Alex is playing like he usually does. If you take out last year, he's playing better then his average at KC. In other words, he's not struggling under a new system. He's being average Alex for the most part.

 

Quote

I believe we all want Alex to succeed here. If Alex succeeds, the Redskins succeed. If Jay wants to succeed, he has to figure out a way to help Alex prosper. If that means, bringing in a Golden Tate type, so ****in' be it. But you can't have some ****ing height preference override what could possibly work. That's bull****. I'm all for every player on this team, playing at the highest level. I could give a damn about "Gruden's system" over that. Does Gruden's system have a ring? No. Does Andy Dalton have a ring? No Does #8 have a ring? No And yes does Alex Smith have a ring? No

 

Having a height preference is NOT a "system". You get that part right? Once again, I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here.

 

Coaches have systems. Sorry, that's the way it works. Do they add stuff to suit a guy that isn't a good fit? Yes, and Gruden has done that with Alex. He's added a bunch of RO and RPO looks. So, he's done exactly what you say he hasn't done.

 

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So what you have is no success across the board. So take Jay off the pedestal and make him accountable for creating success. Its his ****ing job. If its Gruden's way or the highway with every QB that comes here, why on earth would you be good with that? Further if Gruden is so hell bent on ensuring his system is the be all end all, then damnit, why be so nonchalant during the pre-season? I'm sure you were there when Alex played a couple downs in the first game without his starters. I'm sure you were there when Gruden acted like the 3rd pre-season game was not an important time for Alex and his receivers to get on the same page. I'm sure you were there when most of Gruden's weekly interviews include veteran days off and WRs listed as limited. Gruden runs a loose shift and it shows in just about every game. So don't trick yourself into thinking that Gruden is some guru. He's not and his record indicates it. Now with that said, he can hold himself accountable, make some damn adjustments to his "scheme" and possibly see success from his QB and the offense. Of course Alex needs to do the same. But its no denying that he needs serious help at the WR position.

 

First of all, who the **** is putting Jay on a pedestal? Not me.

Second, Jay has changed a lot of stuff to accommodate Alex. So, you're dead wrong about that.

Third, I feel Jay was stupid for not playing Alex more in the preseason. I felt Alex needed as many reps as he could get. Why don't you go back and check on my posting history to see what I thought about that, before you get too high and mighty. Because you're really pushing it with this post.

Fourth, although I've already pointed this out already, Jay has made large changes in his scheme for Alex.

Fifth, I'm not sure there was a WR that was really going to help the offense much, especially bad poorly as Smith has been playing. You seem to want to put all the blame on Jay. But the fact of the matter is that guys are open. Alex is not hitting them.

 

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And BTW, that prototype QB garbage is for somebody that don't know **** about football. Whatever category you want to place Alex in means absolutely nothing. The fact that the Redskins brought Alex in as their starting QB means that they believe they can win with him. Not run gruden's system like he likes it.That's college and high school ****. If Gruden can't coach a successful offense, he needs to step aside and hire someone that will. Remember his first year, he tried this **** only to hand it off to McVay. 

 

Ok, here is where you're wheels start to fall off. Smith has never been a prototype NFL QB. He's not a guy that is comfortable going through progression, throwing in rhythm, and throwing with anticipation to a spot. Someone like Drew Brees. He's more like RGIII, a one read and take off guy. Run a RO or RPO, where you only have one read. Not sitting back and scanning the field, going through his reads quickly. He does not excel there.

 

You can't see the difference? You better not try to tell people they don't know anything about football, because you've just embarrassed yourself.

 

And then to your last point. McVay was merely calling plays in Gruden's system.

 

So there. Shows what you know. And personally, I'm not a fan of Jay calling plays, but I know the difference between calling plays from his system, and having someone else call plays..............from his system.

 

It appears you don't know squat about a plethora of things here, and yet, you come off as a know it all, and a jerk to boot.

[HardcoreZorn]

6 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

@HardcoreZorn

 

What I find interesting is that folks constantly crush Jay, Doctson, and a few others on here like it’s their job.  They are Redskins last time I checked. I never see you in those threads passionately defending them.  You are constantly drawn to the QB/Bruce threads because you’ve invested heavily in those debates.  This is much less about how you feel sad that the fanbase is “melting down” and more about how much you hate it that folks like me appear to “be right” to this point.

 

You’re right, I don’t frequently post in those threads. That’s because those threads are 95% constructive criticism and fair points. They are good reads, even if harsh in some respects. I don’t feel the need to read every post I agree with and quote it and comment on it. Do you? 

 

Also a thread on Doctson, there are few if any posters claiming Dan Snyder is stomping around his office for how mad he is at Bruce for passing on him for Michael Thomas. If that were the hot button issue causing posters to post the way they do in the Kirk/FO threads about the team as a whole, I’d venture to guess you’d find me there quite a bit. Again, please separate pointed criticism and what I am referring to. Just because you agree with it, doesn’t mean it’s not there. 

 

Maybe one day you’ll be less worried about the perceived attitude of my posts, and more on the content. Just because I back certain things and am on the positive spectrum currently, doesn’t mean I’m blind to the fact Alex isn’t playing well and I love each and everything we as an organization do. 

 

Also, up to this point, you’re not right. At all. We are one week removed from Kirkers arguing to people how great the rest of the team was (I agree by the way before you think I’m sticking up for Alex) which was the reason we’re winning games. Guess who put the rest of that team in place? The Redskins FO. However the hell its structured. Meanwhile there’s a 100+ page thread devoted to hating the guy at the top of that structure. 

 

And im sure the above will cause you to think I’m an Allen fanboy. I’m used to it. But sadly, you’ll just be missing the main point, which is that this is an extremely odd time to be at the end of your patience with this franxhise. Regardless of how the rest of this year ends up, barring a completely and utterly embarrassing finish which I don’t expect. 

 

But back to being right. Kirk Cousins has the vaunted Minnesota Vikings with the same amount of wins having played one more game than Alex Smith and the Redskins. Team game right? You got it. That’s why you don’t pay fully guaranteed 3 year contracts at 29M a year for a guy who is unable to elevate the level of the rest of the 52 players on the team. He’s a good QB that looks really impressive on the stat sheet when throwing to wideout tandems such as Theilen/Diggs and Jackson/Garçon. Doesn’t take away from all the other things he’s not great at. So why pay that for a guy when a guy like Keenum with the same cast had a stellar year and went 13-3 the year before? Why would we pay that for a guy who proved he topped out around .500 for 3 straight seasons? 

 

And just to get out in front, you also don’t pay a guy like Alex Smith for his performance level right now. But to put it in salary cap standards, there’s nearly 90% of the rest of the team to account for when evaluating an organization and where they stand on the progress meter. Something that’s often not apparent around these parts.

[joeken24]

33 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

Alex is playing like Alex. You're not clear here, but you seem to be saying that Alex played well under Reid, but not so much under Gruden. Is that correct? If that is what you are saying................................to use your words, you're simply wrong.

 

Alex is playing like he usually does. If you take out last year, he's playing better then his average at KC. In other words, he's not struggling under a new system. He's being average Alex for the most part.

 

 

Having a height preference is NOT a "system". You get that part right? Once again, I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here.

 

Coaches have systems. Sorry, that's the way it works. Do they add stuff to suit a guy that isn't a good fit? Yes, and Gruden has done that with Alex. He's added a bunch of RO and RPO looks. So, he's done exactly what you say he hasn't done.

 

 

First of all, who the **** is putting Jay on a pedestal? Not me.

Second, Jay has changed a lot of stuff to accommodate Alex. So, you're dead wrong about that.

Third, I feel Jay was stupid for not playing Alex more in the preseason. I felt Alex needed as many reps as he could get. Why don't you go back and check on my posting history to see what I thought about that, before you get too high and mighty. Because you're really pushing it with this post.

Fourth, although I've already pointed this out already, Jay has made large changes in his scheme for Alex.

Fifth, I'm not sure there was a WR that was really going to help the offense much, especially bad poorly as Smith has been playing. You seem to want to put all the blame on Jay. But the fact of the matter is that guys are open. Alex is not hitting them.

 

 

Ok, here is where you're wheels start to fall off. Smith has never been a prototype NFL QB. He's not a guy that is comfortable going through progression, throwing in rhythm, and throwing with anticipation to a spot. Someone like Drew Brees. He's more like RGIII, a one read and take off guy. Run a RO or RPO, where you only have one read. Not sitting back and scanning the field, going through his reads quickly. He does not excel there.

 

You can't see the difference? You better not try to tell people they don't know anything about football, because you've just embarrassed yourself.

 

And then to your last point. McVay was merely calling plays in Gruden's system.

 

So there. Shows what you know. And personally, I'm not a fan of Jay calling plays, but I know the difference between calling plays from his system, and having someone else call plays..............from his system.

 

It appears you don't know squat about a plethora of things here, and yet, you come off as a know it all, and a jerk to boot.

So after all that, what is your end game? And who has time (or even cares about) to search your past post as if its somehow a reputable reference point. Come on man! I already said Alex is not playing well. He needs to hit the open receiver. Cool. You can choose to go point by point to make some lame argument about Alex not being a better than average QB.  But it seems most of what you're regurgitating is more about your feelings being hurt. Don't take this **** personal. This is an extreme fan post.

 

Alex hasn't been in the league 14 years without knowing how to sit in the pocket and go through progressions. That's some narrative from who knows where. Alex has a responsibility no doubt. But confidence is fleeting in this business and Gruden did a poor job of facilitating that confidence for this offense as a whole (to include Alex). So when Alex is sitting in the pocket with happy feet and his wide receivers are running open, blame that **** on Alex. But damnit blame that **** on Gruden when two receivers are in the same ****ing spot on the field. There's plenty of blame to go around. But I've seen enough QBs struggle in Gruden's offense to know that Alex ain't here alone blowin up the spot with his play. I also know that Alex is not a guy that's going to carry a team. But if you know that coming in, why the **** would a coach be so nonchalant about game preparation. Alex is not missing throws if he's gotten reasonable reps in practice. He's not unsure about where to go with the ball if he's got confidence in his WR. That confidence comes from reps in practice and reps in games. Gruden has on more than one occasion admitted his team didn’t have a very game plan or that he made some bad play calls. He's been hear 5 years!!! We've seen third down issues, red zone issues, run game issues and now passing game issues.

 

All Alex needs to do is settle down and play his game (however boring that may be) and he'll be fine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, joeken24 said:

That's fine. But again, the art of winning is not finding the perfect QB for "your" system. Its about coaching the QB you have to excel at the position. Its like a good teacher. Joe Gibbs won because he was good at that. Belichick wins with whatever QB he plugs in. Jay has got to understand that. If he doesn't, the Skins will be drafting another QB or bringing in the "next best FA" and be right back in this **** again. Maybe Doug has a come to Jesus moment with Jay about that very concept. Doug was a recipient of what a good coach can do for a QBs career. And you know Doug, Mark and Joe were totally different QBs. In the meantime, (and I repeat) there hasn't been one NFL QB that has balled out under Gruden's system. 

 

I read this post and it made me think that's weird considering I recall reading that Jay was pounding the table behind the scenes to sign Desean Jackson.  Even Desean said Jay that off season would keep texting him and trying to sell him.  Then, I thought this off season.  They signed Paul Richardson.  And the receiver we heard that he was pounding the table for was Trey Quinn.  So it didn't make sense to me.  Then I pulled the actual article you quoted and if you go through it, it directly contradicts your point.

 

And as for there not being a QB that has balled out on his system, Kirk in 2015 and 2016 was one of the top QBs in QBR.  Kirk had almost 5000 yards one season.  Alex in his whole career never sniffed that.  Going back to his previous QB, Dalton had 33 TDs his last year there, Alex has never sniffed that either.   I don't think Jay needs a come to Jesus moment where he gets help from Doug as you put it.  More likely the reverse which is dude you didn't even give me time to evaluate QBs in the draft and you guys just made a move at QB anyway.  I recall in 2012 ironically the year that Cousins was selected Shanny said he spent time a lot of time evaluating the QBs in the draft.

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/washington-redskins/jay-gruden-says-qb-kirk-cousins-will-have-adjust-redskins-taller-wide-receivers

but that doesn’t mean that coach Jay Gruden leans strongly towards the big guys.

“I like big receivers. But I also like little ones like Jamison [Crowder],” said Gruden at the NFL meetings in Phoenix. Crowder, 5-9, is the team’s leading returning receiver after he caught 67 passes for 847 yards and seven touchdowns in 2016.

[Skinsinparadise]

5 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

 

You’re right, I don’t frequently post in those threads. That’s because those threads are 95% constructive criticism and fair points. They are good reads, even if harsh in some respects. I don’t feel the need to read every post I agree with and quote it and comment on it. Do you? 

 

 

The posts there are centered on how Jay stinks, the team should be better, its about as negative and sky is falling as it gets as a thread. More so I think than the Bruce thread, ironically.  The same sentiment that you say drives you nuts.  But I gather since Jay is the most in the cross hairs -- its ok because its "constructive criticism"?  If it was Bruce centered or about defending Kirk, I'd presume you'd be posting like crazy about how people unfairly got it wrong and the outlook of the team wrong.

 

Those threads also slam the heck out of Bruce by the way he's just the Robin of the hit not the Batman.   So if you think the threads that rip players are fine -- good constructive criticism.  Then the whole homer-positive label you give yourself looks off.  It comes off just like multiple people have accused you of which its about Bruce is good, Kirk is bad.  With some they keep their draft picks rhetoric.  IMO that's not a homer position that's about having certain angles you like about the team.   I got some angles I like, too.  It just happens not to fully coincide with yours. 

 

To me recalling the theme of some of your posts, IMO they can come off like you want to rationalize things because it bothered you so much all the trades Vinny made when they gave away draft picks.  And any administration that stops that has you at hello (hyperbole on my end to make a point).  You can overlook everything else and dismiss whatever you don't like as minor points.  And I don't have an issue with this specific position, I just disagree with it.  And this is coming from a guy who loves the draft season almost as much as the NFL season.  Watching the draft is my favorite event of the year, bigger than the SB.  There used to be a show called Redskins lunch, I'd call in and even nail Gibbs himself (who I revere) when he did a fan Q & A once a week about why are you trading away so many picks.  So yeah I get the sentiment.  I felt it, too. 

 

And I gather it really really really bothers you that it really really really bothers other people that Kirk is gone.  But if you follow this team closely during the Dan reign. Botching up the QB position is right up there with trading away picks.  The two points ran hand in hand.  You say you are a macro guy, all about the big picture, yet you dismiss the QB position as if its just like any other spot.  Even though its the most important spot in sports let alone the NFL.  People should get over it, you'll find another one, next, what else you got?  Just because you dismiss it  -- doesn't mean other people should.   

 

And the neurosis of screwing up the QB position is every bit as intense and arguably even more intense than screwing up the draft when it comes to Dan's reign.  If they did a 30-30 on the Dan reign, trust me a segment would be dedicated to QB.   The amount of resources both in picks and money wasted on the QB position has been epic.  And its has been as a big of a reason that this team has never won more than 10 games during Dan's reign than anything else.     You act like people are on some weird trip on it.   But to me the fact that you are so dismissive of it makes you come off as weird to me as you think we do. 

 

So I don't get the angle that you adapt as if you are just going to just talk us out of it.   In addition, we got the bad behavior stuff which also has been a hallmark of Dan's era.  You've even admitted that you heard from a good source that Bruce is a jerk.  Clearly, that doesn't bother you.  But it bothers some of us and to each their own but again you can rant about how great things are and how we miss the boat -- but your posts making that case aren't persuasive to me.  I am coming at it from a different perspective and its far from what you accuse others of which is being mired in the past and can't recognize its all behind us now. 

 

The one thing you occasionally say that I do agree with is lets see this stuff play out.  I am all into that.  I don't rule out your most rosy prediction can come true.  Heck for all we know Kirk will play like Beck for the rest of the season, the Vikings go 6-10.  Alex looks like 2017, Alex.  Bruce is named the executive of the year.  How the heck should we know.  My thing about Dan specifically is he has gone about success IMO in an odd way and with arrogance to match.   I'll criticize it until I see it work.  When it works, I'll say hey it was different but it worked.  But it has to play out.  I am not judging on a curve or based on potential.  the dude has had about 20 years to figure this out, he doesn't get my benefit of the doubt anymore.  And yeah believe it or not, I used to give him plenty of benefit of the doubt.  I even gave it to Bruce, too for years.  ?

 

[goskins10]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The posts there are centered on how Jay stinks, the team should be better, its about as negative and sky is falling as it gets as a thread. More so I think than the Bruce thread, ironically.  The same sentiment that you say drives you nuts.  But I gather since Jay is the most in the cross hairs -- its ok because its "constructive criticism"?  If it was Bruce centered or about defending Kirk, I'd presume you'd be posting like crazy about how people unfairly got it wrong and the outlook of the team wrong.

 

Edit

 

The one thing you on occasionally say that I do agree with is lets see this stuff play out.  I am all into that.  I don't rule out your most rosy prediction can come true.  Heck for all we know Kirk will play like Beck for the rest of the season, the Vikings go 6-10.  Alex looks like 2017, Alex.  Bruce is named the executive of the year.  How the heck should we know.  My thing about Dan specifically is he has gone about success IMO in an odd way and with arrogance to match.   I'll criticize it until I see it work.  When it works, I'll say hey it was different but it worked.  But it has to play out.  I am not judging on a curve or based on potential.  the dude has had about 20 years to figure this out, he doesn't get my benefit of the doubt anymore.  And yeah believe it or not, I used to give him plenty of benefit of the doubt.  I even gave it to Bruce, too for years.  ?

 

I cannot possible state what you did any better. But I do want to expand on just the last point. 

 

@HardcoreZorn I think the one point you (and a few others) either miss or choose to ignore is that no one here came to their conclusions about Bruce in a vacuum or based on one thing ie Kirk. Many of us have spent time defending Bruce when he has done the right thing. I have even done so this season - see the Ha HA Clinton Dix trade - which I still think was an excellent trade. 

 

To be clear, I hate Bruce Allen. But it's not just because of Kirk. I have moved on. Kirk is on another team now. Wish him about as much luck as I wish any other player not a Redskin. Alex Smith is our QB. No, I hate BA because of several years of being an ass to players, the media, the fans and for helping Dan continue the air about the team that is not fan friendly at all. 

 

Again, the Kirk debacle was a disaster IMO and many others. If Kirk was his only major screw up then it would be much more like, well he hosed that one but yea know guy does alright otherwise. Have to give him the benefit of the doubt. But when your history is built with making there wrong decisions and you screw up one of the most important decisions of your time in your job, that person is never getting the benefit of the doubt. It's the same thing with Dan. 

 

Unless the the team starts performing much better and more consistently and/or they start changing the cultural perception of the team and it's relationship with the fans, I will continue to dislike both of them. Even winning will not change my mind about them personally, just about the product they put on the field. I show that displeasure by not going to games or buying any merchandise. Not judging anyone who does those things. I get it. I love going to the stadium. I miss it to be honest. Even living out of state I used to go to several games a year.

 

Not any more. I cannot personally support the team financially with those two at the top. 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

7 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

You’re right, I don’t frequently post in those threads. That’s because those threads are 95% constructive criticism and fair points. They are good reads, even if harsh in some respects. I don’t feel the need to read every post I agree with and quote it and comment on it. Do you? 

I don't believe you actually spend much time reading those threads.  I think you're addicted to Bruce/QB related threads because after all, it's what prompted you to jump out of lurker status to "set me straight".  Sure is interesting though that you feel compelled to cape for Bruce to the extent that it's practically the only thing you actively post about on the board.  Yet, you find all the other threads trashing anyone not named Bruce to be 95% constructive criticism and fair points.  Cannot. Make. This. Stuff. Up.

 

7 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

Also, up to this point, you’re not right. At all. We are one week removed from Kirkers arguing to people how great the rest of the team was (I agree by the way before you think I’m sticking up for Alex) which was the reason we’re winning games. Guess who put the rest of that team in place? The Redskins FO. However the hell its structured. Meanwhile there’s a 100+ page thread devoted to hating the guy at the top of that structure. 

 

Great is a very complimentary take on the team around Alex that led to a 5-2 record.  The defense and running game definitely carried the way, certainly better than it's been in 10 years.  True.  But great?  Not at all.  They are absolutely more fun to watch than they've been in 10 years. Definitely capable of having dominating performances.  Adrian Peterson, how convenient that be the one guy we know for certain wasn't Bruce's idea.  So if you're looking for me to give the nod to Bruce for finally being in charge of a team that drafts fat boys & promoted the guy that wanted to Bring in Peterson behind his back.  *Nods* 

 

7 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

And im sure the above will cause you to think I’m an Allen fanboy. I’m used to it. But sadly, you’ll just be missing the main point, which is that this is an extremely odd time to be at the end of your patience with this franxhise. Regardless of how the rest of this year ends up, barring a completely and utterly embarrassing finish which I don’t expect. 

You think the above might cause one to think you're an Allen fanboy? Look at your entire posting history on the forum, perhaps that's a bit of a clue as to whether or not you're an Allen Fanboy.  More sad than defending Bruce Allen is not having the balls to own that position.  Which is what you're doing with the statement "Regardless of how the rest of this year ends up".  Yeah, who cares just another season, nothing to see here.  Aw shucks, injuries, let's move on. There's always next year.

 

7 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

blah blah Kirk blah blah Kirk blah blah

Find me a sane Vikings fan who still believes Case Keenum is getting that team to a better record?  Please do us all a favor and just discontinue the Kirk conversation here because it's just a rehash of the same stuff you always say.  I'm not under the impression that you will ever eat crow about it and constantly move the goal posts to wherever you deem necessary to not be wrong and for Bruce not to look like the idiot he is.  It's not constructive, we've all said our piece.  Let's keep the conversation on Alex Smith and how we paid him just like we used to under Vinny, a big fatty contract based on an anomaly career season....and he's old to boot.  Or do you want to change the subject?

 

Okay, I'll change the subject to just straight up fan mutiny.  Did you happen to see the 'Happy Birthday Bruce' posts on the teams official Facebook & Twitter?  Roughly 1% of the posts were positive.  Everyone was slaughtering him from all angles.  For some perspective, when Jay is Live on social media, the comments are somewhere near 50/50 positive/negative, which can sway with a win or loss.  The team was at the top of the division on Bruce's birthday.  Still everyone was taking a dump on him.  I'll venture a guess that the droves of people that feel that way also don't like buying tickets to the stadium.  I'm certain LaFemina is well aware of the issues he faces when it comes to selling tickets and instilling belief in the fanbase.  The biggest issue is Bruce Allen.  So if I were you, I'd start getting prepared to grieve when he's asked to leave soon.

[Morneblade]

6 hours ago, joeken24 said:

So after all that, what is your end game? And who has time (or even cares about) to search your past post as if its somehow a reputable reference point. Come on man! I already said Alex is not playing well. He needs to hit the open receiver. Cool. You can choose to go point by point to make some lame argument about Alex not being a better than average QB.  But it seems most of what you're regurgitating is more about your feelings being hurt. Don't take this **** personal. This is an extreme fan post.

 

Then don't be a tool. If you can't have a discussion about something without being a jackass, you're the problem.

Most of what I covered was:

1. Where you were wrong

2. Alex is not a good fit for Gruden's system, and how Gruden has attempted to help Alex

3. Things that Gruden could have done better to get Alex better acclimated to the offense. We agree here.

 

You don't like my argument? Refute it, if you can

 

 

6 hours ago, joeken24 said:

Alex hasn't been in the league 14 years without knowing how to sit in the pocket and go through progressions. That's some narrative from who knows where. Alex has a responsibility no doubt. But confidence is fleeting in this business and Gruden did a poor job of facilitating that confidence for this offense as a whole (to include Alex). So when Alex is sitting in the pocket with happy feet and his wide receivers are running open, blame that **** on Alex. But damnit blame that **** on Gruden when two receivers are in the same ****ing spot on the field. There's plenty of blame to go around. . I also know that Alex is not a guy that's going to carry a team. But if you know that coming in, why the **** would a coach be so nonchalant about game preparation. Alex is not missing throws if he's gotten reasonable reps in practice. He's not unsure about where to go with the ball if he's got confidence in his WR. That confidence comes from reps in practice and reps in games. Gruden has on more than one occasion admitted his team didn’t have a very game plan or that he made some bad play calls. He's been hear 5 years!!! We've seen third down issues, red zone issues, run game issues and now passing game issues.

 

All Alex needs to do is settle down and play his game (however boring that may be) and he'll be fine.

 

It's been a knock on him since he came out. Which is why 2 teams moved on from him, and they got better when they did.

 

I love this part "But I've seen enough QBs struggle in Gruden's offense to know that Alex ain't here alone blowin up the spot with his play"

Ok, so we had RGIII, who can't read coverages. Dude is not a NFL QB. That is not on Gruden. Then, we had Cousins, who was a young 4th rounder.......and he blossomed. When the team was healthy, he broke every Redskins single season record there was. Then we get Smith, who is playing to his average.

 

No QB has really struggled in Gruden's system. RGIII is on his what, 4th team as a back up out of being out of the league. Cousins went to the Pro bowl. Dalton, threw for 4200 yards and 33 TDS in 13', Gruden's last year with Dalton, both are career highs. And Smith has been Smith.

 

Listen, I don't think Gruden is great. Honestly, I would have rather had either Shanahan or McVay.

 

Also, there are rules about how to conduct yourself here, you might want to go read them. as opposed to telling people to calm down after you act like a douche. I can have a civil discussion about how Jay has not done some things well here. But if you're going to be a self important jackass, I'm not going to waste my time with you.

[goskins10]

6 hours ago, joeken24 said:

So after all that, what is your end game? And who has time (or even cares about) to search your past post as if its somehow a reputable reference point. Come on man! I already said Alex is not playing well. He needs to hit the open receiver. Cool. You can choose to go point by point to make some lame argument about Alex not being a better than average QB.  But it seems most of what you're regurgitating is more about your feelings being hurt. Don't take this **** personal. This is an extreme fan post.

 

Alex hasn't been in the league 14 years without knowing how to sit in the pocket and go through progressions. That's some narrative from who knows where. Alex has a responsibility no doubt. But confidence is fleeting in this business and Gruden did a poor job of facilitating that confidence for this offense as a whole (to include Alex). So when Alex is sitting in the pocket with happy feet and his wide receivers are running open, blame that **** on Alex. But damnit blame that **** on Gruden when two receivers are in the same ****ing spot on the field. There's plenty of blame to go around. But I've seen enough QBs struggle in Gruden's offense to know that Alex ain't here alone blowin up the spot with his play. I also know that Alex is not a guy that's going to carry a team. But if you know that coming in, why the **** would a coach be so nonchalant about game preparation. Alex is not missing throws if he's gotten reasonable reps in practice. He's not unsure about where to go with the ball if he's got confidence in his WR. That confidence comes from reps in practice and reps in games. Gruden has on more than one occasion admitted his team didn’t have a very game plan or that he made some bad play calls. He's been hear 5 years!!! We've seen third down issues, red zone issues, run game issues and now passing game issues.

 

All Alex needs to do is settle down and play his game (however boring that may be) and he'll be fine.

 

 

 

 

Could you please list the QBs that have struggled in Jay's Offense? The only one I know of before now is Robert - and he struggled in most every offense once he was injured. The other QBs are Andy Dalton - got better every year - Colt McCoy - had some of his best performances in Jay's offense even though he is the definition of a back-up QB and Kirk who we all know did pretty well. 

 

Am I missing a few QBs? Maybe in Tampa? Hmm.  Would have to go back and look. If anything though, the reputation for Jay's offense is that it is QB friendly. Not sure how you get that reputation with all these QBs you speak of struggling. 

 

So again, please list the QBs that struggled in Jay's offense. 

[DJHJR86]

42 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

So again, please list the QBs that struggled in Jay's offense. 

 

1. Alex Smith

[goskins10]

6 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

1. Alex Smith

 

Please read the original comments. The whole conversation was that the original poster was saying Alex's issues were due to Jay's offense - as they had seen plenty of other QBs struggle in his offense. So hence the request to list the other QBs that struggled. So my whole point was Alex's struggles were due to Alex not Jay. Not a sinlge comment was saying Alex was not struggling. 

 

Your hatred of Alex leads you to just jump on things without taking the time to understand any context. It's oh look another opportunity but say Alex sucks. It's really nauseating to be honest. 

 

 

 

[Morneblade]

2 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

1. Alex Smith

 

He's playing to his 5 year average in KC. That's the bad part, when he was touted as a "upgrade" over Kirk.

Here is Alex's current season, expanded to 16 games

3734 yards

63.5%

18 tds

6 ints

32 sacks

56.8 QBR

89.8 QB rating

 

Average of his last 5 years in KC

3522 yards

65.1 %

20 tds

6.6 ints

38.4 sacks

56.4 QBR

94.8 QB rating

 

This is Alex being Alex. He's not really struggling from a numbers aspect. This is literally what I expected. A downgrade.

 

[HardcoreZorn]

1 hour ago, goskins10 said:

I cannot possible state what you did any better. But I do want to expand on just the last point. 

 

@HardcoreZorn I think the one point you (and a few others) either miss or choose to ignore is that no one here came to their conclusions about Bruce in a vacuum or based on one thing ie Kirk. Many of us have spent time defending Bruce when he has done the right thing. I have even done so this season - see the Ha HA Clinton Dix trade - which I still think was an excellent trade. 

 

To be clear, I hate Bruce Allen. But it's not just because of Kirk. I have moved on. Kirk is on another team now. Wish him about as much luck as I wish any other player not a Redskin. Alex Smith is our QB. No, I hate BA because of several years of being an ass to players, the media, the fans and for helping Dan continue the air about the team that is not fan friendly at all. 

 

Again, the Kirk debacle was a disaster IMO and many others. If Kirk was his only major screw up then it would be much more like, well he hosed that one but yea know guy does alright otherwise. Have to give him the benefit of the doubt. But when your history is built with making there wrong decisions and you screw up one of the most important decisions of your time in your job, that person is never getting the benefit of the doubt. It's the same thing with Dan. 

 

Unless the the team starts performing much better and more consistently and/or they start changing the cultural perception of the team and it's relationship with the fans, I will continue to dislike both of them. Even winning will not change my mind about them personally, just about the product they put on the field. I show that displeasure by not going to games or buying any merchandise. Not judging anyone who does those things. I get it. I love going to the stadium. I miss it to be honest. Even living out of state I used to go to several games a year.

 

Not any more. I cannot personally support the team financially with those two at the top. 

 

 

I'll take you up on this because I've lost hope trying to explain my POV to some other folk, not worth my time to explain something over and over and end up in a Bruce Allen/Kirk Cousins fight because of how butt hurt they are he's gone and any opposing view is ridiculed.

 

But let's recap, since you also took the Bruce angle. One of my first posts in this thread was this:

 

Quote

So a week ago people are commending how great the team is around Alex, which is why we are now winning games. Now we are back to talking about how terribly run we are. The back and forth is nauseating. It's a long season, though I fear the OL injuries may be too tough to overcome.

 

In response to:

 

Quote

So he does have it easier than his predecessor.  Like his predecessor, he doesn't have a FO who does a good job to set him up for success.   Is it that crazy why Kirk would want to leave to a team that actually give him not just one but two really good receivers, running backs (when Cook was healthy) and engages in FA seriously when they want to upgrade.   And before this warrants the FO police to hit back -- yeah this FO IMO aren't awful at it, they are mediocre, so so.  Yes, good decisions mixed in with the bad.  But not enough good decisions IMO. 

 

The point? Just a week ago I read over and over that Alex was not the reason we were winning games (I agree). Fast forward a week and I read the above and went hmmmm. How did we go from the team carrying the QB (now Alex), and if Cousins were here we'd be even better, to now claiming the FO didn't do a good enough job to set his predecessor up for success? See where I'm going with this?

 

OK, so that was captured by part of my next post.

 

Quote

It's right to question and be skeptical, sure. But it seems crazy to get too high or too low from game to game. To talk about how great the rest of the team has been as a way to diminish Alex, and then the very next week talk about the FO not giving us the resources we need to succeed. Do you not see how those two things are directly contradictory? Sustainable or not, you can't have it both ways

 

See, posters read that and go into ultra defense mode since they hate Allen so incredibly much and assume my point must be that I'm sticking up for Allen how could you possibly not like the guy. That's not the point, at all. And it goes right over their head over and over and over. What I called out was the moving of goal posts to suit an agenda. Seriously just last week there was a lot of chatter about team game, attributing wins to QBs is pointless, so throw Kirk and Alex's records out the window. Since last week Alex was coming off 3 straight wins and had the Redskins at 5-2 while articles were slamming Kirk for not being worth the money. Now fast forward a week and there are posts like the above asserting Kirk is genius for going to a team that supplies him the resources he needs. Yet still has that Vikings team with the same amount of wins, however we both ended up there.

 

And to answer the chatter about why I post in the QB and Bruce threads. It's because there is a lot of inconsistencies in posting from week to week in those threads to fit personal agendas mostly slamming the franchise. Trust me, I read through every thread. If I really truly cared for sticking up for Bruce Allen I'd engage with the million other people who say he's an idiot on a daily basis. Again, it's not criticism that gets under my skin. It's twisting things to prove they were right all along. One week our team is so great any other QB can step in, Kirk would have this team in Super Bowl contention. The next, our organization is so inept that no wonder Kirk left for greener pastures! Exaggerating here, but you get the point. It's not consistent. To argue otherwise is pointless IMO. Both can't be true.

 

I don't think Bruce even does anything anymore. I don't really care about him, contrary to what you and others think. Just don't hate the guy and respect we don't run our team like a clown show anymore. I think if we collapse this year, it's obviously time for a change. Schaeffer as team President and Kyle Smith as GM I think would go a long way to reinvigorating the franchise. Depending on how we look down the stretch, I'd be in favor of Jay getting one more year and offseason under the regime change (not even sure much would be different than it is currently other than titles) to see if he can get it right. Alex is a tricky one because we are tied to his contract. I guess I just pray there's someone in the draft Jay has his eye on. He developed Dalton (2nd rounder) and Kirk (4th rounder) so I trust he can identify someone to run his offense outside of the top guys. And remember, Mahomes was never thought of as an elite prospect until later on in the process. Even he didn't go top ten, so it is possible to strike gold outside of the top guys. But QBOTF is imperative, so that by the time our DL is in their prime and on second contracts, we'll have a QB on a rookie contract still ready to step in. If I'm being honest, I don't think our contending window has quite opened yet. I think in 2-3 years you will really start to see the results of the last couple drafts and we'll be going places. But still think we end up in the playoffs this year.

[DJHJR86]

21 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

Please read the original comments. The whole conversation was that the original poster was saying Alex's issues were due to Jay's offense - as they had seen plenty of other QBs struggle in his offense. So hence the request to list the other QBs that struggled. So my whole point was Alex's struggles were due to Alex not Jay. Not a sinlge comment was saying Alex was not struggling. 

 

Your hatred of Alex leads you to just jump on things without taking the time to understand any context. It's oh look another opportunity but say Alex sucks. It's really nauseating to be honest. 

 

I got the context.  It was a joke.  I was supporting your point.

 

And yes, Alex still sucks.