Going Commando Posted December 10, 2018 Author Share Posted December 10, 2018 7 hours ago, volsmet said: We haven’t won 12 in decades. We aren’t close to being a 12 win team, imo. We aren’t significantly better than any team in the nfl, we are significantly worse than several. We are closer to being the worst team in the nfl than the best. We should have started shipping pieces a year ago. We were on an 11-12 win pace with Alex Smith at QB. With better QB play we could have gotten there. The NFL is a tight league. A succession of injuries at a couple of positions can wreck you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted December 10, 2018 Author Share Posted December 10, 2018 6 hours ago, Berggy9598 said: Footwork is an absolute eye sore, too easily affected by pressure, velocity control is erratic at best, doesn't go through his progressions that fast and he struggled against tougher competition. He plays with a few NFL caliber players on offense too. I don't disagree with all of the characterizations you make, but I do disagree about his velocity control. I think he's a good touch passer who throws a catchable ball in the short game. His footwork in the pocket is solid too. His drops are fine and he throws with disciplined weight transfer more than most of the QB prospects you'll see. Dinging him about his surrounding talent isn't fair either. Emanuel Hall struggled with injuries most of the year and they weren't able to replace J'Mon Moore. When Lock had those two healthy, he was prolific. His receivers were pretty poor this year. Hall got hurt in the Purdue game and was hobbled against Georgia and missed the Alabama and Kentucky games. It's not surprising they struggled to move the ball against three top ten defenses when their only great weapon was hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcbothwel Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Can someone please tell me how Thorson is rated as a 2nd/3rd round QB? I see a big, strong, accurate, smart QB with strong leadership and a great 4 year resume working with subpar talent... He has EVERYTHING you look for in a QB... I have to be missing something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inigo Montoya Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 8 hours ago, Berggy9598 said: Footwork is an absolute eye sore, too easily affected by pressure, velocity control is erratic at best, doesn't go through his progressions that fast and he struggled against tougher competition. He plays with a few NFL caliber players on offense too. This about sums up my response. He missed lots of open throws against KY and looked awful in the pocket. This QB is going to have to play without a great surrounding cast. After watching Sanchez yesterday though, I'm literally game for anything... even a RO offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinny21 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 14 hours ago, Rufus T Firefly said: Yeah, the 6 teams behind us in draft order all are within a game of us and at this point we win the tiebreaker against all of them. If we keep losing (likely) we could really move up. Jets pulling off a late victory over Buffalo hurt us though. Yeah, I expect we move up a fair bit on that list... even if we somehow manage to win one. I dont know how I forgot, but until recently I was thinking “at least we have a bunch of picks in the first 5 rounds” (3rd and 5th comp picks). Trading those 3rd and 4th round picks isn’t looking so great now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbird2 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 16 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said: We can do better than that!!! lol i predict a pick in the 6-10 range...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 2 hours ago, skinny21 said: Yeah, I expect we move up a fair bit on that list... even if we somehow manage to win one. I dont know how I forgot, but until recently I was thinking “at least we have a bunch of picks in the first 5 rounds” (3rd and 5th comp picks). Trading those 3rd and 4th round picks isn’t looking so great now... Thought we gave up a 6th for Alexander and a 4th for Clinton-Dix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinny21 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said: Thought we gave up a 6th for Alexander and a 4th for Clinton-Dix You’re right. Geez, my head is off today - I was thinking about the Smith trade and totally blanked that it was last year’s 3rd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 If both Haskins and Herbert are the goods, Herbert coming out would be a big break. Jax probably picking ahead of us and they seem the most desperate with maybe Denver being the runner up for QBs in this draft. Reading the NY papers, wouldn't shock me if the Giants refrain from drafting one this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said: Thought we gave up a 6th for Alexander and a 4th for Clinton-Dix And to think I initially loved that trade for Clinton-Dix. Gonna end up a very high 4th rounder now.... could probably snag a very good CB in this draft now....if we didn't need a QB so badly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Always A Commander Never A Captain Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 I've only seen 3 games of Dwayne Haskins, but he's kind of a statue in the pocket. At least he stands tall in the face of pressure and still releases it when he's about to get smacked, but there are a lot of occasions where you think "Just move to the side a little, buy a bit more time!" That's going to be rough for him in the pro's with better pass rushers coming at him. We'd need really good Guards to help keep a clean pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgundy Yoda Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 7 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said: I've only seen 3 games of Dwayne Haskins, but he's kind of a statue in the pocket. At least he stands tall in the face of pressure and still releases it when he's about to get smacked, but there are a lot of occasions where you think "Just move to the side a little, buy a bit more time!" That's going to be rough for him in the pro's with better pass rushers coming at him. We'd need really good Guards to help keep a clean pocket. That's a concern but not a major one, some QBs just dont sense that pressure. Kirk definitely did not, but I'd kill to have everything else he brings to the table. I need to watch more on Haskins, his #s are eye popping though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgundy Yoda Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 I actually like Kyler Murray the most of any QB in college right now... such a shame he chose baseball instead. I love his throwing motion and how quick he gets the ball out. Hes undersized, but if he gained about 10 pounds or so he'd be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OVCChairman Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Sorry if this was already discussed as i havent been able to see all the pages. I dont know if it would be smart for herber to stay and have to enter the same draft as Fromm and Tua Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 3 hours ago, Burgundy Yoda said: I actually like Kyler Murray the most of any QB in college right now... such a shame he chose baseball instead. I love his throwing motion and how quick he gets the ball out. Hes undersized, but if he gained about 10 pounds or so he'd be fine. People saying he's 5 9, that's short even by Russell Wilson's standards so can he see the passing lanes in the NFL with the taller players. But wow can that dude move, quick feet. Some think he might change his mind and play football but most think he's sticking to baseball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgundy Yoda Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 10 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: People saying he's 5 9, that's short even by Russell Wilson's standards so can he see the passing lanes in the NFL with the taller players. But move can that dude move, quick feet. Some think he might change his mind and play football but most think he's sticking to baseball. I love players that have that short burst ability in the pocket to buy themselves time. Look at his throws, the dude has a killer arm, high velocity on his passes and accurate on the run. Now look at some tape on Will Grier, there's a glaring difference in how long the ball is in the air. I really hope we dont take Grier in the draft, I'd rather have Lock. I'd take Murray at the top of the 2nd, simply because of value and I think he would be there. He has a top 5-10 QB arm, and I actually personally value him in the top half of the 1st round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Murray is getting the sunshine treatment right now because everyone is pretty sure he will never choose the NFL over the higher guaranteed money and safety of the MLB (plus he'd have to pay back $4M or so he already received). So it's way more fun to build him up and speculate about what he'd be like in the NFL from a drinking the koolaid perspective, knowing it probably won't happen. It's a good narrative and mostly a waste of ink and airtime, but a safe one. Because most people will never be held accountable for the hype they are building. Make no mistake. If he were to inexplicably choose the NFL draft, the narrative would change in a hurry. He'd get picked apart. The same thing always happens with guys who have very little chance of declaring. They don't get picked apart until they do declare, because building up the "what could have beens" is much easier and makes for good storylines. Jake Locker, Matt Barkley, Josh Allen, and even Cardale Jones have all gotten this soft, gloves on treatment when it was clear they were 90% likely not declaring. Their tools/numbers were hyped up and no one took the time to nitpick them the way seniors and redshirt juniors had been nitpicked by draftniks for an entire season or more by the time they come out. It's 10x worse right now with a 5'9" guy who is 99% more likely to choose the MLB than the NFL. Nobody is getting critical with him yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Burgundy Yoda said: I love players that have that short burst ability in the pocket to buy themselves time. Look at his throws, the dude has a killer arm, high velocity on his passes and accurate on the run. Now look at some tape on Will Grier, there's a glaring difference in how long the ball is in the air. I really hope we dont take Grier in the draft, I'd rather have Lock. I'd take Murray at the top of the 2nd, simply because of value and I think he would be there. He has a top 5-10 QB arm, and I actually personally value him in the top half of the 1st round. I am jazzed to be able to shortly see Murray in a live game, got tickets for the Orange Bowl. Am OK with tanking for Tua or Fromm but I am thinking that's not happening because this team is diving into it this draft versus 2020. I haven't really landed on a position on any QB yet -- Herbert if he comes out is intriguing, he's tall, he can move, strong arm. Lock has a rocket. Haskins has a strong arm and is accurate. Grier is a fun watch but some question his arm strength. Herbert, Lock and Haskins can throw darts even when they can't fully step into throws. Not sure about Grier on that front. If the team is looking to generate excitement, Murray would do it. I've got concerns about all of these 2019 prospects but on first blush if Haskins and Herbert both come out, I don't think this is the disaster draft for QB as some purport. I don't have it in me to root against the team even for draft position but I admit losing out would help position them. Jaguars might not be easy to leapfrog in the draft -- they play us, the Texans and the Dolphins to end the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KillBill26 Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 10 hours ago, pcbothwel said: Can someone please tell me how Thorson is rated as a 2nd/3rd round QB? I see a big, strong, accurate, smart QB with strong leadership and a great 4 year resume working with subpar talent... He has EVERYTHING you look for in a QB... I have to be missing something. I am no scout by any means, but it's funny you say that, because I had the opposite reaction. I was shocked to hear thorsons name being tossed around as a future first round pick last year. And I am no scout, but I watch a lot of college football and he just doesn't seem like a franchise QB. He just isn't very impressive, but like you mentioned, I'm sure a lot of that has to do with scheme and surrounding talent. And when I read Finley is a less athletic version of Alex smith, i fear that we end up with one of these two guys out of panic after Smith's injury and situation. I hope they stick to drafting for best value without reaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted December 11, 2018 Author Share Posted December 11, 2018 Grade #2: Emmanuel Hall, WR, Missouri, SR - 5.70 Strengths: - Good height and size for the position - Good body control - Elite long speed. Glides around the field. Runs by elite SEC speed. - Tremendous burst off the line. Gears up very quickly - Eats up cushion in a hurry - First steps are good enough to frequently beat the press and win inside leverage - One of the premier deep threats in the class - Does good job tracking the ball in the air and making his adjustments - Vertical routes are silky. Posts with the 12 yard stem are devastating - Knows how to adjust his nine route to get that bit of extra separation - Curls are always going to be there for him because of the fear his speed creates. Stops on a dime for them. - Showed a little bit of versatility to run shallow digs and screens and make something out of them Weaknesses: - Not very physical - Not a good blocker - Can be rerouted off the line by strong corners maintaining disciplined inside leverage. Still a significant threat to make the play deep though - Body catcher - Hands are ordinary and doesn't play with the kind of catch radius you expect from someone with his height - Lot of concentration drops. Can't trust him in the middle of the field - Not a productive part of the short and intermediate passing game - Rounds off his outs - No slant game - Doesn't have a ton of feel for finding the seams of the zones. Probably not going to be a great slot weapon - Not much of a threat after the catch. Not bad at it, just not a big part of his game - A bit one dimensional as a weapon. Only ran about four routes with frequency at Missouri and almost always lined up on the outside of the strong side. - Got hurt this year. Might have something of an injury history My take is that he's a fourth or fifth rounder. Probably second only to Marquise Brown as a deep threat in this class, but that's basically all he brings to the table. He's a nice mid round option to acquire the speed to take the top off of defenses. He also had an extraordinarily good rapport with Drew Lock, so if you draft Lock in the first or second round, you might want to come back around and get this kid as a handcuff. Kind of a situational player but he has the physical attributes to grow into a starter on the outside. But there is definitely some softness to his game that's not going away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted December 11, 2018 Author Share Posted December 11, 2018 Grade #3 Drew Lock, QB, Missouri, SR - 6.05 Already did a strengths and weaknesses post on him last week, so I'm not going to get too far into them again. My bottom line take on his skill set is that he's a big bodied pocket passer with great arm strength and a really nice release, who excels at throwing deep, and also throws a very catchable ball in the short passing game. His limitations are that he's not much of an athlete, needs room to set up for throws, isn't that strong at throwing on the run, accuracy in the intermediate game is weaker, and decision making plummets when he's under pressure. Very good passer when he's on schedule and on script. Not that good when he has to go off script. I see him as having the potential to become a quality starter. The arm talent is special and first round caliber. But the decision making ability and accuracy and athleticism aren't special and maybe he goes in the second round as a result. I definitely see the second round as being his floor. I still think he could probably go in the mid first round if he can get a team to fall in love with his arm and his makeup. As far as player comparisons go, I see a stronger-armed Phil Rivers. He runs like Phil Rivers does. Operates in the pocket like him. I still see Carson Palmer too, but I think he's a much better athlete than Palmer was post knee-injury. I think he's someone who has a good amount of untapped upside because, quite frankly, his college offense and surrounding talent weren't impressive. Very collegiate, to put it nicely. Missouri's offensive system is so limited and his ball carriers are all one trick ponies who dropped a ton of perfectly placed passes the last two years. If he's smart enough to handle a much bigger playbook with far more diverse passing concepts and make good whole field reads, then he has a chance to be a far better player as a pro than he was in college. He's a good piece of raw clay. EDIT: revised his grade down a tick. Needed to do so to more accurately reflect his weakness at managing pressure. Probably his biggest issue as a prospect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Noticing two draft geeks I respect, Ledyard and Brugler both have a man crush on the OG from Oklahoma, Cody Ford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted December 11, 2018 Author Share Posted December 11, 2018 Where I sit on Lock specifically for the Redskins is that I like him as a prospect but don't love him. I wouldn't bang the table for him and I would be a little antsy about taking him in the early to mid first round. I think he is a much better value early in the second round. Assessing him from our perspective, if we took him, I don't think you can play him next season. Well you could, but it would be a big mistake. He's coming from such a simple offense where he didn't demonstrate the ability to see the whole field well. And his struggles at managing pressure were often back breaking. Some of the decisions he made under adversity were absolutely brain dead. This kid desperately needs an offensive line and a clean pocket to work from. If you threw him out there behind our line today there would be so many terrible back foot throws and turnovers that people would consider him a bust. We're going to end up picking fairly high. So if we can move down to get closer to his natural range of late first/early second, and then sit him for his rookie season so we can build a better offensive line, then I could fall in love with the pick. That's the right way to play out the scenario IMO. But if we can't move down and had to take him in the early teens or even the top ten, man... I would be really uneasy about that. Especially if we had to start him next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSSkinz Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 17 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: He's coming from such a simple offense where he didn't demonstrate the ability to see the whole field well. This scares me. I appreciate your breakdowns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSSkinz Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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