NoCalMike Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 26 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said: You don't like it but Trump and Bernie were the two guys outsiders the Hillary and the other 15 Republicans were establishment globalists. Trump is working on trade now maybe he'll get to campaign reform but I doubt it. Trump was an outsider in name only. He is and has been part of the "swamp" that he railed against during the campaign. Look at who has entered the picture since has been elected, some of the most unqualified and corrupt individuals. John Bolton? Yeah he is really an "outsider's" pick for foreign policy. Trump basically hand-picked the Bernie talking points he thought would go over well with working white class voters, mixed in a bunch of fear-mongering and hate. The only thing Trump is interested in is himself and further enrichment. He sees the oval office as a status symbol that can bring him more wealth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 3 minutes ago, NoCalMike said: Trump was an outsider in name only. He is and has been part of the "swamp" that he railed against during the campaign. Look at who has entered the picture since has been elected, some of the most unqualified and corrupt individuals. John Bolton? Yeah he is really an "outsider's" pick for foreign policy. Trump basically hand-picked the Bernie talking points he thought would go over well with working white class voters, mixed in a bunch of fear-mongering and hate. The only thing Trump is interested in is himself and further enrichment. He sees the oval office as a status symbol that can bring him more wealth. Nah, Trump is in his own swamp. It just happens to be more luxurious and adjacent to the other one and he is slowly draining the original...right into his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veryoldschool Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 5 minutes ago, NoCalMike said: Trump basically hand-picked the Bernie talking points he thought would go over well with working white class voters, mixed in a bunch of fear-mongering and hate. No, one of the thing that really got me willing to overlook his corse, crude and irritating behavior was a series of interviews of his from the 1980's. He felt the same way then. Hate him if you will but on economic populism, he really means it and is working the program he said he'd pursue. As I mentioned in other posts I was very skeptical when I voted for him and I am pleasantly surprised thus far. We'll see how he does over the next couple of years but he's off to a promising start from my perspective, better than I hoped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 1 minute ago, Veryoldschool said: No, one of the thing that really got me willing to overlook his corse, crude and irritating behavior was a series of interviews of his from the 1980's. He felt the same way then. Hate him if you will but on economic populism, he really means it and is working the program he said he'd pursue. As I mentioned in other posts I was very skeptical when I voted for him and I am pleasantly surprised thus far. We'll see how he does over the next couple of years but he's off to a promising start from my perspective, better than I hoped. Trickle Down economics is populism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 6 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said: No, one of the thing that really got me willing to overlook his corse, crude and irritating behavior So you can overlook racist, sexist, xenophobic, misogynist behavior? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogofWar1 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 I tend to use "latent racial bias" and "patent racism" for terms when trying to differentiate between the really racist people like David Duke, and the people who enjoy and defend racially biased institutions but aren't going to yell the N-word at someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 10 minutes ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said: So you can overlook racist, sexist, xenophobic, misogynist behavior? Lets be honest, he embraced it. This notion that Trumps appeal is based on sound economic principle and his longstanding championing of the American Blue-collar worker is laughable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 11 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said: Lets be honest, he embraced it. This notion that Trumps appeal is based on sound economic principle and his longstanding championing of the American Blue-collar worker is laughable. Yes, This. It's where my disconnect is, that some people believe Trump is in this for any other reason them himself. Where is this record of being a "champion for blue collar workers" idea coming from. What can be pointed to from his past? I am not referring to comments made on TV, but in his actual life as a "deal-maker" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 What percentage of Trump voters and current Trump supporters are such because of racism? Is it possible for a non racist to support him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogofWar1 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 23 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said: What percentage of Trump voters and current Trump supporters are such because of racism? Is it possible for a non racist to support him? Patent? A minority. Latent? A larger share, probably a majority. Possible for a non racist to support him (both patent and latent)? Yes, but it'd be tough. Small percentage. Probably fewer people in that camp today than pre-election. The less informed about politics and issues of the day the more likely a person is to be able to be neither patent nor latently racially biased while still supporting Trump, as their understanding of Trump will be fuzzy. His "rah rah America" stuff probably plays decently to the disinterested crowd who check in on politics once a month or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 3 hours ago, Veryoldschool said: I don't care what the illegals look like I want them to unemployable in the US and for them move back home of their own accord. If businesses wouldn't employ them they would not be here, the feds really need to hammer employers of illegals. If Trump turned getting caught with illegals on the payroll to a business killer these folks would go home. I am for domestic labor including unions and domestic production. "There has been a massive upward redistribution of our capital over the last generation" I agree globalization doesn't work. It does not produce the broad-based prosperity I saw growing up. I want to change our trade and immigration policies and work on restoring the economic balance we used to enjoy. Given all the advances it ought to be easier for people of modest skills to make a living in the US not harder. 1. I agree with 1, but the problem is that Trump isn't proposing that, and we haven't seen an increase in that since Trump became President. That's actually something Obama was doing. Trump's talk on immigration/a wall is really just a distraction. 2. You missed his point. The problem isn't (really) our trade or our immigration policy though. The problem is our tax policy, which has benefited people that earn income from investments and generational wealth transfers vs. people that earn income via labor. Which of course Trump with his tax cuts have doubled down on. With Trump as President, we are going to see more of that redistribution. Not less. Trump's DHS lifts the cap on H2-B visas, and then his businesses apply for people to fill them. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/7/20/16003254/trump-h2b-visa-program (Trump is a bad populist: 1. He's not doing what really needs to be done to lower illegal immigration (go after companies). 2. He's not for things that protect worker rights/wages (e.g. minimum wages and safety laws). 3. He's not really for lowering the amount of low skill workers coming into the US (see the increase in the cap of H2-B visas). What he has done is give more money to the rich in terms of tax cuts, their ability to pass wealth onto future generations (the inheritance tax changes), and make companies generate more profit (which helps people that are wealthy and own stock). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 33 minutes ago, NoCalMike said: Where is this record of being a "champion for blue collar workers" idea coming from. What can be pointed to from his past? I am not referring to comments made on TV, but in his actual life as a "deal-maker" It absolutely does not exist in any way, shape or form. Remember, Trump based his political relevancy on Fox News appearances promising blockbuster revelations regarding Obama’s birth certificate. That is his foundation. He could have easily gone on CNBC and outlined his plan to re-invigorate “blue collar America” as part of his campaign, but he never did. In fact, he never outlined a tangible economic strategy of any kind. I wonder why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Trump isn't a populist. He's a trickle down economics person with a dose of protectionism. Protectionism is not equal to populism. (Well, at least not historically.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veryoldschool Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 51 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said: What percentage of Trump voters and current Trump supporters are such because of racism? Is it possible for a non racist to support him? No, of course, all Republicans are racists. All Trump supporters including the 8% of black voters and 28% of Hispanic voters who voted for Trump are racists. Democrats define what is racist and that keeps changing other than Republicans are always racists. During the Obama administration, anyone in opposition to Obama's ill-conceived health care plan was deemed to be a racist. The Democrats should call themselves the Raceacrats now because all they offer now is hate-filled identity (race) politics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 2 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said: The Democrats should call themselves the Raceacrats now because all they offer now is hate-filled identity (race) politics. I am honored that Pat Buchanan decided to join the conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 2 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said: No, of course not all Republicans are racists. All Trump supporters including the 12% of black voters and 35% of Hispanic voters who voted for Trump are racists. Democrats define what is racist and that keeps changing. During the Obama administration opposition to Obama's ill-conceived health care plan was deemed as racists. The Democrats should call themselves the Raceacrats now because all they offer now is hate-filled identity (race) politics. 8% Black 28% Hispanic Facts are good. https://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-elections/how-groups-voted/groups-voted-2016/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veryoldschool Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Just now, NoCalMike said: I am honored that Pat Buchanan decided to join the conversation. Pat writes a lot better than me, but I am flattered by the comparison. 1 minute ago, TryTheBeal! said: 8% Black 28% Hispanic Facts are good. https://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-elections/how-groups-voted/groups-voted-2016/ Okay, let's go with your numbers they are clearly white supremacist racists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 1 hour ago, Veryoldschool said: he really means it I know people like to post this in a condescending way but I seriously feel bad for you if you are artless enough to actually believe that man 'really means' ANYTHING he has promised you or anyone else in his life. I mean that. If you believe him, and I think you do, I feel really bad for you. I know there are people who are willing to pretend to believe him cause they dont care about anything hes doing. But really believing him? Wow man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 @Veryoldschool Since you mentioned wage growth, I want to point out that wage growth bottomed out 2008/2009. Since 2009, it has been climbing. If anything wage growth was higher in 2014-16, then since Trump was elected. https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/wage-growth **EDIT** Oh and let me point again, that a lot of that wage growth isn't actually real because it is being funded by borrowing more money, which we will have to pay back with interest. That Trump's wage growth really looks worse if you take into account the increase in the deficit that went with, especially as compared to the 2014-2016 wage growth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veryoldschool Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 13 minutes ago, Llevron said: I know people like to post this in a condescending way but I seriously feel bad for you if you are artless enough to actually believe that man 'really means' ANYTHING he has promised you or anyone else in his life. I mean that. If you believe him, and I think you do, I feel really bad for you. I know there are people who are willing to pretend to believe him cause they dont care about anything hes doing. But really believing him? Wow man. I didn't really believe his populist convictions when I voted for him but I wanted to vote for an avowed nationalist populist. Because I thought others would follow that course, we desperately need a populist and nationalist party. He has started to make a believer out of me with his moves on trade. The tax cuts are going to be effective but they are conventional Republican thinking. His moves on trade are something we haven't seen and hopefully, he will continue to move toward tariffs and protectionism because globalism is a failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veryoldschool Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 4 minutes ago, PeterMP said: @Veryoldschool Since you mentioned wage growth, I want to point out that wage growth bottomed out 2008/2009. Since 2009, it has been climbing. If anything wage growth was higher in 2014-16, then since Trump was elected. https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/wage-growth **EDIT** Oh and let me point again, that a lot of that wage growth isn't actually real because it is being funded by borrowing more money, which we will have to pay back with interest. That Trump's wage growth really looks worse if you take into account the increase in the deficit that went with, especially as compared to the 2014-2016 wage growth. So there is a way to be dismissive of the wage growth we are starting to see that doesn't sound nearly as condescending and petty as Pelosi calling the bonuses hundreds of thousands of people received as crumbs. Wonderful, thanks for sharing it. Believe what you wish but I believe his election gave our economy a boost of confidence and the tax cuts are going to fuel investments and savings that will lead to a return of healthy 4% growth and blue-collar wage growth which we haven't seen for decades. I want a big infrastructure bill that will be millions more into the workplace. I don't trust the unemployment rates, I think there are millions of Americans who want work and millions more who are underemployed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 I’m not sure why “is donal trump racist” is even a relevant question. Only he can really know that. And it’s too late even if he is racist. He is president, racist or not. Is he helping African Americans and Hispanics, and other minorities? That’s the only question that really matters. I don’t think anyone can answer it yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooked Crack Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 1 minute ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: I’m not sure why “is donal trump racist” is even a relevant question. Only he can really know that. And it’s too late even if he is racist. He is president, racist or not. Is he helping African Americans and Hispanics, and other minorities? That’s the only question that really matters. I don’t think anyone can answer it yet. Yes. No. Next question. 13 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said: I didn't really believe his populist convictions when I voted for him but I wanted to vote for an avowed nationalist populist. Because I thought others who follow that course, we desperately need a populist and nationalist party. He has started to make a believer out of me with his moves on trade. Hopefully, he will continue to move toward tariffs and protectionism because globalism is a failure. Why is his own White House saying his policies will hurt growth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 1 hour ago, TryTheBeal! said: Lets be honest, he embraced it. This notion that Trumps appeal is based on sound economic principle and his longstanding championing of the American Blue-collar worker is laughable. He made his money in part by abusing small businesses by refusing to pay contracts then threatening them with long term legal battles that forced them to accept a "settlement" for less than what they were owed. He bulled the small business sector around, and only because he could; not because he was in the right, but because they couldn't afford the fight. It's hard to square what Trump actually is and has been, with what his supporters claim the appeal is. Because they're not just incorrect, they're 180 degrees from each other. It's why I have such a hard time taking any of his supporters seriously. Everything they say they like about his is incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 19 minutes ago, Veryoldschool said: So there is a way to be dismissive of the wage growth we are starting to see that doesn't sound nearly as condescending and petty as Pelosi calling the bonuses hundreds of thousands of people received as crumbs. Wonderful, thanks for sharing it. Believe what you wish but I believe his election gave our economy a boost of confidence and the tax cuts are going to fuel investments and savings that will lead to a return of healthy 4% growth and blue-collar wage growth which we haven't seen for decades. I want a big infrastructure bill that will be millions more into the workplace. I don't trust the unemployment rates, I think there are millions of Americans who want work and millions more who are underemployed. Again, we aren't STARTING to see (more) wage growth. Wages started growing again in 2010 and since 2014 they have gone up and down some, but all in all have been flat. You can believe what you want, I'm telling you what the facts are. You can deride those facts any way you want, but that doesn't change the truth. The federal government measures the number of unemployed, under employed, and people that aren't working, but want to. It is called the U-6. http://www.macrotrends.net/1377/u6-unemployment-rate It has been trending down pretty steadily since 2010. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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