Official 2018 Redskins Training Camp/Preseason Thread

[HardcoreZorn]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Sure but I didn't say Reed won't be healthy -- I said IF he's not healthy.  And I am not exactly going out on a limb to wonder. 

I understood that already. What I’m saying is that I don’t think Reed’s presence will single handedly swing our record this year by a few games. I think that’s a bit exaggerated, and ignoring a lot of the other positives on the roster.

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Thompson actually hasn't been relatively healthy in the pros but agree that college was worse.  For the 2013 season -- he tore his left labrum and was out for the season.  In 2015 he missed some games and had shoulder injury after the season.  Then we have the 2017 injury.   He's not been hurt as often as Jordan but Chris is a dude who has been banged up -- he said recently he was told by his doctor he won't feel 100% until November and he still feels pain now.  So yeah maybe its all nothing and he will be fine -- its possible.  But I am in the lets wait and see mode with him. 

Forgot about 2013 and yeah he’s certainly been banged around. 

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Not dependent to me in regards to them being a bottom feeder versus elite.  But can Jordan Reed be the difference between 8-8 and 10-6 -- I think 100% slam dunk yes that's possible.  He's the one passing weapon who makes defenses worry.  Red zone -- 3rd down -- all key stuff.

This goes with what I said above but I think this probably is a little more applicable to some teams of the past. I predict the defense and run game will be stronger this year, and Guice will become another focal point that shifts our offensive attack. Thus lessening the critical need for Reed to stay healthy. Gut tells me we get way more out of Reed this year than last anyway, which is an added bonus and another reason I think 10 games is attainable.

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The thing that makes me pause is they have some rotten luck.  We got the Packers on the schedule because of Aaron Rodgers injury causing them to fall to third last year.   The AFC South which traditionally stunk is now a division on the rise.  Tough schedule again.  And I am not one who believes that guys coming off injuries are less likely to get injured again -- I think its the reverse that these guys are more vulnerable to injuries and not being 100%.  Not saying you are saying otherwise.  But for me I don't think its far fetched for us to be saying weeks into this season doesn't this feel like deja vou?

Eh I don’t put too much stock into schedule before the season because it’s just so unpredictable and teams that you think will be good stink and vice versa. I do agree it certainly could be challenging.

 

Count me firmly in the group that would be shocked if we are as injured as last year. That was unprecedented. 

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Yeah this is probably where we depart a little.  I am not for example taken by the Raiders game as being that unique.  The defense has really had moments every season just about.  Heck I was at the Jacksonville game in 2014 where they were stuffing them and destroying their O line -- Jason Hatcher's coming out party.  I recall all the narratives then about how dominant the defense was.   I recall Shanny talking a season or so before about how they are talent wise on defense loaded and a top 5 defense when healthy. I recall how they handled Brees in 2015, etc.  They've had nice moments.  But nothing consistent.

First off, the Raiders game was unique. Second, I Understand your point about needing to see it consistently, but I think a 5-6 game sample size pre Allen and Matt I injuries is different than a moment here or a moment there. I don’t think it was dumb luck that once our impact DL were gone, our defense began to suffer. Which makes adding another first round talent to the mix even more exciting. 

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I get your point that it feels different to you now because of all the youngish players.  I agree with that, it feels a little different to me too.  But I want to see it play out first.  I made the point that for example some on the board discount the Giants O line in spite of their upgrades because hey its the Giants O line and it stinks until we see otherwise.   That's how some outsiders seem to see the Redskins D line, too.  I am not among them -- I see reason for optimism but if I could have $100 for each time I've heard this time its different for the Redskins defense -- I'd be a rich dude.   So this off season isn't unique as to the it looked bad before but wait till this season.  Does it come around finally this season?  Yeah maybe.  I lean yes.  But will see.

 

Huge difference is that the Giants OL has been woeful for years running now and as @HTTRDynasty stated, they actually lost a couple of their good pieces too. The Skins D Line and outside guys were damn good at generating pressure last year already, lost no one, and added some more pieces. I get the wait and see approach, I really do. But again, I’m projecting here, the wait and see is inherent to every team at this time of year.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

This isn't meant to be a shot at you.  I've just noticed that you repeatedly bring up the upgrades the Giants made to their OL this offseason (Solder and Hernandez), but you completely ignore the losses to their OL they took as well.  The only two good players on that OL the last few years were Justin Pugh and Weston Richburgh.  They lost both.  Pugh signed a 5 year, $45 million deal with the Cardinals.  Richburgh signed a 5 year $47.5 deal with the 49ers.  These guys were both solid players, and their loss will hurt the Giants OL.

 

We've done this dance before as to both lines.  So I suspect we'd be spinning our wheels.   To sum it up from our previous discussion.

 

A,  Agreed with you that the Giants pass rush might be subpar.  I think they have a really good run stuffing line though

B.  Disagreed that their O line is likely going to be bad -- I got no idea one way or another though

C.  Gettleman their new GM's rep is all about the trenches and boy did he go to town on that front this off season.

D.  Playing off of point C its hard for me to dismiss their off season upgrades 

 

Now to your last post.  I am just a LT matters much more than an OG guy.  They arguably had the worst LT in the league last year.  As the Redskins beat reporters like to joke hey if you have a weak position on the line let it be LG.  No one says hey your LT can stink.  If your LT stinks -- your whole O line usually stinks along with it. 

 

They replaced Flowers there with a good one -- got no man crush on Solder but replacing Flowers with Solder is IMO as at least as dramatic as replacing Hood with Payne at nose.

 

Will Hernandez on the other hand was one of my man crushes in the draft (not as much as it was with Guice) -- but that dude bulldozes D lineman.  Kiper said in his view he's the best run blocking LE he's ever seen.  I read the other day about how D Harrison is impressed with Hernandez.   I'd be surprised if the dude isn't a pro bowl guard -- to me he's that good.  Will see.  And yeah I think will be much better than Pugh who I like but I don't think was anything special. 

 

So yeah I think their left side of the O line is night and day.  I think Hernandez >>> Pugh.  Richburg is good.   However, speaking of PFF, the Giants are riding with Brett Jones who replaced Richburg and the dude was last year who was PFF's 5th highest graded pass blocking center.  That's why I read they let Richburg go.  They signed Omemeh from the Jags to play RG

 

Sadly I am probably the most comfortable comparing this team to the NY Giants because those are the two teams I watch the most by a mile and know the best  The Giants because of my in laws. Plus I read the NY sports pages all the time because my favorite baseball team is a NY team.  

 

2 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Meanwhile, the Redskins didn't have any significant losses on the DL, so IMO, you really can't compare the improvement the Giants made on OL (as a whole) in the offseason to the improvement the Redskins made to their DL (as a whole).  Now, it would be different if we lost someone like Matty I., for instance, over the offseason.

 

 4 out of the 5 Giants O lineman are different from their starting lineup last year.  All 5 of you count position changes.  Keeping our D line in tact isn't exactly like keeping the Vikings D line and just gilding the lily like they did when they signed Richardson.  Our D line clearly needed upgrading.  They did so.  Terrific.  And I like our D line now.  I didn't love it going into last off season even though I liked pieces of it.

 

Gettleman who they brought back from Carolina is the same dude who let Norman go because as some in Carolina said he's just about the trenches.

 

I'd love to think that the Giants are just going to be no good in the trenches.  Maybe so.  I suspect their D line will be good.   As for their O line?  Got no clue but I am not banking their new version will be just like their old version when they are coming at it with an entirely new lineup. 

 

At the very least you can say Gettleman is living up to his reputation of being obsessed with the trenches.  4 out of their first draft picks were trenches guys.  they chased the two most expensive O lineman in FA and ended up with one of them.  Will they be successful or not?  You got me.  But I can't argue that when it comes to upgrading the trenches they aren't "on it". 

 

The reason why I think the Giants are overrated right now -- its basically about this dude:  

 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

26 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

I understood that already. What I’m saying is that I don’t think Reed’s presence will single handedly swing our record this year by a few games. I think that’s a bit exaggerated, and ignoring a lot of the other positives on the roster.

 

 

Going back to my original point if both Reed and Thompson are out, I think they can swing a few games.  Could they make due with just one of them?  Probably.

 

26 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

This goes with what I said above but I think this probably is a little more applicable to some teams of the past. I predict the defense and run game will be stronger this year, and Guice will become another focal point that shifts our offensive attack. Thus lessening the critical need for Reed to stay healthy. Gut tells me we get way more out of Reed this year than last anyway, which is an added bonus and another reason I think 10 games is attainable.

 

 

Maybe again.  But that's sort of my point with the offensive weapons for me there are a lot of maybes.  I am not saying I am negative about it -- but unsure.

 

26 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

 

Eh I don’t put too much stock into schedule before the season because it’s just so unpredictable and teams that you think will be good stink and vice versa. I do agree it certainly could be challenging.

 

Agree.  But at the moment I don't love the schedule. Be nice to have an easy schedule for a change. 

 

26 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

 

Count me firmly in the group that would be shocked if we are as injured as last year. That was unprecedented. 

 

Me too but I wouldn't be shocked if they are still among the most injured teams.  Hope not.

 

26 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

 

Huge difference is that the Giants OL has been woeful for years running now and as @HTTRDynasty stated, they actually lost a couple of their good pieces too. The Skins D Line and outside guys were damn good at generating pressure last year already, lost no one, and added some more pieces. 

 

I slowly watched game after game on coaches tape months back, posting clips on various threads purely focused on the D line.  Now, that doesn't make me an expert.  I am no scout.  But as a layperson I feel more comfortable talking D line than other positions on this team because of the time I put into it.   I'll just say this there are a bunch of guys on that D line I wasn't blown away by.  And I elaborated enough on it in those threads where I don't feel like doing it here.  I liked Allen, Ioannidis.  I liked Lanier as a pure pass rusher but not versus the run.  But I don't think it was some wild accident that they were the worst run stopping D line in the league last year.  But I like the new mix so count me in among the optimists who think it will finally be good this season -- but its not in my view in the bank until it plays out.

 

As for the NY Giants.  You got me if their O line is fixed.  My point on that is I don't think we can just count on it stinking.  It's a wild card.  Their GM for better or worse overhauled their lineup.  While I don't think Solder is an elite LT -- he's at least good -- so replacing a horrible LT with a good one I think should help.  Ditto Hernandez who I think is an animal.   Does it all come together for them?  Got no idea.  Will see. I hope not. Just saying I am not banking on it stinking. 

 

The Redskins D line has likewise mostly stunk for years too so I don't think you are using the best analogy.  But I get your point. 

[Malapropismic Depository]

Ugh.

I read that the Bellichek-run Super Bowl 1st team defense will be going against Smith, without both his starting OT's.

I hope they have a lot of runs planned, and short, quick-drop passes.

[HTTRDynasty]

13 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

We've done this dance before as to both lines.  So I suspect we'd be spinning our wheels.   To sum it up from our previous discussion.

 

A,  Agreed with you that the Giants pass rush might be subpar.  I think they have a really good run stuffing line though

B.  Disagreed that their O line is likely going to be bad -- I got no idea one way or another though

C.  Gettleman their new GM's rep is all about the trenches and boy did he go to town on that front this off season.

D.  Playing off of point C its hard for me to dismiss their off season upgrades 

 

A. I think a subpar pass rush equals a subpar DL in today's league.

B. I disagree, as you know.

C. He threw a lot of bodies at the issue (i.e. the trenches), but it remains to be seen how successful he was at fixing the issue

D. I'm not dismissing the players they added. However, I am taking into account the players they lost.  At best, I think they marginally improved at both OL and DL.  Based on PFF's ranking, they agree (26th best OL ranking in 2017 to a projected 25th best in 2018 and 31st best pressure percentage ranking in 2017 to a projected 29th best pass rush ranking in 2018).  Yes, they will be good against the run.  But, as I have shown in the past, a great run defense does not have a high correlation with wins and losses.  A great pass defense does, however.

 

19 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Now to your last post.  I am just a LT matters much more than an OG guy.  They arguably had the worst LT in the league last year.  As the Redskins beat reporters like to joke hey if you have a weak position on the line let it be LG.  No one says hey your LT can stink.  If your LT stinks -- your whole O line usually stinks along with it. 

 

They replaced Flowers there with a good one -- got no man crush on Solder but replacing Flowers with Solder is IMO as at least as dramatic as replacing Hood with Payne at nose.

 

Are you aware Nate Solder gave up 51 pressures in 2017 (blocking for Tom Brady)?  Flowers has averaged 58 pressures per season throughout his career.  I don't see a dramatic difference there.  

 

When it comes to run blocking, I agree Solder is much better than Flowers, but as you know, that's not the reason LT is so important.  LT is so important because of how much of an impact he has on the passing game, protecting the QB's blindside.  It's the reason, as you stated above, that LT matters so much more than an OG.  Solder isn't much better than Flowers in this regard.  

 

36 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Will Hernandez on the other hand was one of my man crushes in the draft (not as much as it was with Guice) -- but that dude bulldozes D lineman.  Kiper said in his view he's the best run blocking LE he's ever seen.  I read the other day about how D Harrison is impressed with Hernandez.   I'd be surprised if the dude isn't a pro bowl guard -- to me he's that good.  Will see.  And yeah I think will be much better than Pugh who I like but I don't think was anything special. 

 

So yeah I think their left side of the O line is night and day.  I think Hernandez >>> Pugh.  Richburg is good.   However, speaking of PFF, the Giants are riding with Brett Jones who replaced Richburg and the dude was last year who was PFF's 5th highest graded pass blocking center.  That's why I read they let Richburg go.  They signed Omemeh from the Jags to play RG

 

Hernandez will likely be better than Justin Pugh, but A) we won't know that until the games start and B.) it won't be a dramatic improvement, regardless, since Pugh was a good player in his own right.

 

Also, it's far from a given the Giants are riding with Brett Jones: 

 

Jon Halapio, Brett Jones: Friends fighting for Giants' center job

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000943111/article/jon-halapio-brett-jones-friends-fighting-for-giants-center-job

 

If you have two potential starters fighting over one job, it's likely you don't really have a true, solid starter that the coaching staff has faith in.

 

By the way, Omemeh is terrible.

 

[SWFLSkins]

15 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

Ugh.

I read that the Bellichek-run Super Bowl 1st team defense will be going against Smith, without both his starting OT's.

I hope they have a lot of runs planned, and short, quick-drop passes.

 

Don't worry about Pre-season wins and losses, worry about execution and health, clean play. 

[HTTRDynasty]

1 minute ago, SWFLSkins said:

 

Don't worry about Pre-season wins and losses, worry about execution and health, clean play. 

 

I think he's mostly worried about the health of our starting QB, going up against a 1st team defense without his two starting tackles.  I'm not as worried.  Alex is smart.  So is Gruden.  I doubt he'll be put in a position to take a big hit.

[SWFLSkins]

4 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

I think he's mostly worried about the health of our starting QB, going up against a 1st team defense without his two starting tackles.  I'm not as worried.  Alex is smart.  So is Gruden.  I doubt he'll be put in a position to take a big hit.

 

Agreed. Smith won't be in long if the line can't hold up. 

[MartinC]

26 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

Ugh.

I read that the Bellichek-run Super Bowl 1st team defense will be going against Smith, without both his starting OT's.

I hope they have a lot of runs planned, and short, quick-drop passes.

 

Smith might not even play in the first game. If he does it will be one series. Same goes for almost all the starters.

[SWFLSkins]

 

[JSSkinz]

Well, that's good for Jay but I'm going to be pessimistic as he should also look at how little our starters play in preseason games and make adjustments there as well.

 

How we play in camp against our own players is no indication of how we will play in the regular season, we've watched this team have good camps only to end up 2-2 or 1-3 after the first 4.

[carex]

Skins aren't playing Williams and Moses in the preseason opener?  I guess Nsekhe isn't going to get much time at LG

[SkinsGuy]

1 minute ago, carex said:

Skins aren't playing Williams and Moses in the preseason opener?  I guess Nsekhe isn't going to get much time at LG

 

Like most teams, the Redskins will probably play their starters very little in the first preseason game.

[LetMeSeeYourWarFace21]

4 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:

 

Guice could change a lot for this offense to be sure. Especially if he can be a legitimate threat as a receiver, we changes the offense a good bit. 

Have there been any updates about how Garrett Hudson has looked in camp? I was reviewing our roster/depth chart and didn't realize he was 6'3.5", 244 and runs a 4.6 with a 34" vertical. His tape looks good too. He looks as fast and sudden as his numbers would suggest. 

 

http://www.draftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=1006342&draftyear=2018&genpos=TE

 

 

 

 

Here's the write up on him from SWFLSkins post above about the UDFA's in camp:

 

Garrett Hudson

Hudson is a talented tight end and could produce some buzz in the NFL for the next few years, but will struggle to make the roster in his first season. The former North Carolina Tar Heel transferred to the University of Richmond and became an all-conference performer working with fourth-round pick, QB Kyle Lauletta. The potential is there.

 

His Chances:  Hudson is a prime candidate to be on the practice squad and could be called up to the roster if any injuries occur to any of the tight ends.

[LetMeSeeYourWarFace21]

4 hours ago, SWFLSkins said:

 

 

 

Damn, my man Stroman getting abused out there. He fast as hell, but his height smh....hope he can make his mark on special teams...

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

A. I think a subpar pass rush equals a subpar DL in today's league.

 

 

Vernon IMO is an above average pass rusher.  Whether Carter ends up a dud (touted in the draft) and Barwin too -- could be -- don't know.  But its conceivable that their pass rush is below par.  McIntosh and Hill I think potentially add good depth to their D line.

 

Tough for me to discount their D line's ability to stop the run just because they aren't pass rushers.  Isn't that a little of the debate about Daron Payne ironically -- do you take a run stuffer that early in the draft?  Nonetheless, there is value in run stuffing up the middle. 

 

In 2016 the Giants stopped Dallas's offense in its tracks and arguably they cost us the playoffs the same year because of their run stopping ability.  While I agree with you pass rush is more important than run stopping -- still, heck we had a decent pass rushing d line and a poor run stopping one last season -- where did that get us?  I can't just shrug off a D line that can stop the run as not a big deal.  I'd sound hypocritical considering I've been screaming for a run stopping middle for this defense for years.

 

2 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

It's the reason, as you stated above, that LT matters so much more than an OG.  Solder isn't much better than Flowers in this regard. 

 

 

With respect, you got a major outlier position on that one. The Giants didn't pay Solder 15 million a year because they thought he was at best marginally better that Flowers.  Is Solder an elite LT, far from it, but few argue him and Flowers are in the same conversation.

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-2018-pff-deal-grader-t-nate-solder-signs-with-the-new-york-giants

Deal Grade: B-

Contract: Four years, $62 million

What it means for Solder:

Former New York Giants first-round pick Ereck Flowers has allowed 40-plus pressures and earned sub-52.0 overall grades in each of his first three seasons at left tackle in the NFL, paving the way for Nate Solder to step into his shoes in 2018. New York’s Bobby Hart (10 starts) and Chad Wheeler (6 starts) each struggled at right tackle this past season, so the Solder addition should move Flowers to right tackle.

Now the highest-paid offensive tackle in the league, Solder will have high expectations to live up to as the Giants’ blindside protector, but the 29-year-old veteran has proven consistent enough, specifically as a run blocker, to warrant the big pay day.

What it means for Giants:

Shifting Flowers to right tackle should alleviate some of the obvious pressure on the former ninth-overall pick, while Solder will serve as an immediate upgrade in pass protection for Eli Manning and quite possibly the Giants’ heir to Manning in the coming years.

After pushing through a slow start to the 2017 season, Solder allowed just 25 total pressures across his 358 pass-block snaps in his final 10 games (including playoffs), ranked tied for eighth in PFF’s pass-blocking efficiency (94.7) among offensive tackles with 250 pass-blocking snaps in said span.

Bottom Line

Inking a $62 million contract at 29 years old, Solder comes out of his deal with the Giants on top. However, he still fills a glaring position of need for New York as the team closes in on a draft with little to no high-end talent at offensive tackle.

 

2 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Hernandez will likely be better than Justin Pugh, but A) we won't know that until the games start and B.) it won't be a dramatic improvement, regardless, since Pugh was a good player in his own right.

 

Sure it needs to play out.  Same thought though applies to Daron Payne or Settle, etc.  I disagree I think Pugh is an above average player but nothing special.  Hernandez is special IMO.

 

2 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Also, it's far from a given the Giants are riding with Brett Jones: 

 

Jon Halapio, Brett Jones: Friends fighting for Giants' center job

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000943111/article/jon-halapio-brett-jones-friends-fighting-for-giants-center-job

 

If you have two potential starters fighting over one job, it's likely you don't really have a true, solid starter that the coaching staff has faith in.

 

 

Disagree with your logic.  It would be akin to saying we don't have a true RCB because its camp competition driven -- Scandrick, Dunbar, Moreau.   Your point plays off of Parcells point which if you have 2 qbs fighting for a position you have none -- but I haven't seen that logic applied to every position.

 

My larger point is you said once the Giants weaknesses are their lines both D line and O line.  My response is disagree on the D line.  I think maybe so on the O line but it has to play out.  Their GM's reputation is build on the idea that he's obsessed with building both lines.  He talked about in his initial press conferences.  Now, he might fail at accomplishing it -- that remains to be seen. 

 

But drafting O line-D line with 4 of your first 5 picks is a pretty obsessive attempt to work both lines.  Chasing the top O Olineman in FA ditto.  In other words, they definitely recognize that you win games in the trenches and swung hard to fix both.  Will they be successful?  I got no idea but I am not counting on their attempts to do so this off season to automatically fail.   Not saying you are making your point that they will fail.  I am just explaining that its hard not to notice that they are swinging hard to work the trenches.  

[carex]

12 minutes ago, LetMeSeeYourWarFace21 said:

 

Damn, my man Stroman getting abused out there. He fast as hell, but his height smh....hope he can make his mark on special teams...

 

With Danny Johnson being one of the few UDFA making waves I have to think the best Stroman can do is PS.  Alexander gets a bit of a pass and is like the last DB, guaranteed to be inactive, for coming in late.  1

[Skinsinparadise]

16 minutes ago, carex said:

 

With Danny Johnson being one of the few UDFA making waves I have to think the best Stroman can do is PS.  Alexander gets a bit of a pass and is like the last DB, guaranteed to be inactive, for coming in late.  1

 

One of the beat guys (forgot who said it) said Alexander isn't having a hot camp and they'd be surprised if he makes the roster.  Yeah I've heard a lot of good things about Johnson he seems on track to make it.  Too bad if Stroman doesn't make it because the dude was a really good punt returner in college.  I like Crowder as a receiver but he seems to be inflicted with Randle El syndrome as a returner. 

[carex]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

One of the beat guys (forgot who said it) said Alexander isn't having a hot camp and they'd be surprised if he makes the roster.  Yeah I've heard a lot of good things about Johnson he seems on track to make it.  Too bad if Stroman doesn't make it because the dude was a really good punt returner in college.  I like Crowder as a receiver but he seems to be inflicted with Randle El syndrome as a returner. 

 

Well, like I said, I figured Alexander gets a bit of a pass for missing all the minicamps.  And I think Trey Quinn was also a punt returner and they're working out other guys

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, carex said:

 

Well, like I said, I figured Alexander gets a bit of a pass for missing all the minicamps.  And I think Trey Quinn was also a punt returner and they're working out other guys

 

Quinn didn't return many punts in college.  Wonder though about Bryon Marshall who seems to have a shot to make the roster -- if I recall he returned kicks, not sure about punts.  

[HTTRDynasty]

26 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Vernon IMO is an above average pass rusher.  Whether Carter ends up a dud (touted in the draft) and Barwin too -- could be -- don't know.  But its conceivable that their pass rush is below par.  McIntosh and Hill I think potentially add good depth to their D line.

 

Tough for me to discount their D line's ability to stop the run just because they aren't pass rushers.  Isn't that a little of the debate about Daron Payne ironically -- do you take a run stuffer that early in the draft?  Nonetheless, there is value in run stuffing up the middle. 

 

In 2016 the Giants stopped Dallas's offense in its tracks and arguably they cost us the playoffs the same year because of their run stopping ability.  While I agree with you pass rush is more important than run stopping -- still, heck we had a decent pass rushing d line and a poor run stopping one last season -- where did that get us?  I can't just shrug off a D line that can stop the run as not a big deal.  I'd sound hypocritical considering I've been screaming for a run stopping middle for this defense for years.

 

Vernon is an above average pass rusher.  The rest of their players are below average in this area.  That is not conducive to having a good overall DL.

 

I get your point on Payne, but the difference is that the Skins drafted Payne because they saw him as more than just a run stuffer.  They think he can be a good pass rusher as well.  Time will tell on that, but they wouldn't have drafted him in the 1st if all they thought he could do going forward is just stopping the run, and for good reason.  Because stopping the run is nowhere near as important as stopping the pass.  Take the Jags for example, they ranked 26th against the run in DVOA last year, yet they had the #1 defense in the league, and were one play away from going to the SB. 

 

27 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

With respect, you got a major outlier position on that one. The Giants didn't pay Solder 15 million a year because they thought he was at best marginally better that Flowers.  Is Solder an elite LT, far from it, but few argue him and Flowers are in the same conversation.

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-2018-pff-deal-grader-t-nate-solder-signs-with-the-new-york-giants

Deal Grade: B-

Contract: Four years, $62 million

What it means for Solder:

Former New York Giants first-round pick Ereck Flowers has allowed 40-plus pressures and earned sub-52.0 overall grades in each of his first three seasons at left tackle in the NFL, paving the way for Nate Solder to step into his shoes in 2018. New York’s Bobby Hart (10 starts) and Chad Wheeler (6 starts) each struggled at right tackle this past season, so the Solder addition should move Flowers to right tackle.

Now the highest-paid offensive tackle in the league, Solder will have high expectations to live up to as the Giants’ blindside protector, but the 29-year-old veteran has proven consistent enough, specifically as a run blocker, to warrant the big pay day.

What it means for Giants:

Shifting Flowers to right tackle should alleviate some of the obvious pressure on the former ninth-overall pick, while Solder will serve as an immediate upgrade in pass protection for Eli Manning and quite possibly the Giants’ heir to Manning in the coming years.

After pushing through a slow start to the 2017 season, Solder allowed just 25 total pressures across his 358 pass-block snaps in his final 10 games (including playoffs), ranked tied for eighth in PFF’s pass-blocking efficiency (94.7) among offensive tackles with 250 pass-blocking snaps in said span.

Bottom Line

Inking a $62 million contract at 29 years old, Solder comes out of his deal with the Giants on top. However, he still fills a glaring position of need for New York as the team closes in on a draft with little to no high-end talent at offensive tackle.

 

 

 

I mean, the only positive takeaways in that blurb is A) what I already mentioned about him being a good run blocker and B.) taking a subset of games from last season, and using that as a barometer for how good he is/was.  However, when the whole season is taken into account, Solder gave up 51 total pressures, which is horrendous.  I don't agree with picking and choosing parts of the season to prove how good a player is.  I take the season in totality.  

 

PFF also posted this: 

NATE SOLDER

This one is a matter of price tag. We’d be fine with Nate Solder starting at left tackle for us next season, but the fact of the matter is that every team with a poor left tackle feels the exact same way and there’s no other option in free agency. Solder is going to get top-dollar despite ever being close to a top tackle. The highest he’s ever graded out among all tackles as a pass blocker was 21st back in 2013 and he was 45th this past season.

 

He has always been a much better run blocker than a pass protector, which is obviously the most important part of an LT's job, and is why they are valued so highly compared to other positions on the OL.  With Solder, that's not exactly someone I look at and say, wow, he's going to be a dramatic upgrade for them.

 

And I don't believe I have a major outlier position on the Giants OL issue.  The source you quoted, PFF, has them improving by only 1 spot in their 2018 OL ranking, when compared to where they finished last year.  They obviously agree that the OL this year won't be dramatically better than it was last year.

 

 

40 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Disagree with your logic.  It would be akin to saying we don't have a true RCB because its camp competition driven -- Scandrick, Dunbar, Moreau.   Your point plays off of Parcells point which if you have 2 qbs fighting for a position you have none -- but I haven't seen that logic applied to every position.

 

My larger point is you said once the Giants weaknesses are their lines both D line and O line.  My response is disagree on the D line.  I think maybe so on the O line but it has to play out.  Their GM's reputation is build on the idea that he's obsessed with building both lines.  He talked about in his initial press conferences.  Now, he might fail at accomplishing it -- that remains to be seen. 

 

But drafting O line-D line with 4 of your first 5 picks is a pretty obsessive attempt to work both lines.  Chasing the top O Olineman in FA ditto.  In other words, they definitely recognize that you win games in the trenches and swung hard to fix both.  Will they be successful?  I got no idea but I am not counting on their attempts to do so this off season to automatically fail.   Not saying you are making your point that they will fail.  I am just explaining that its hard not to notice that they are swinging hard to work the trenches.  

 

We really don't have a true RCB, yet.  That's why they are competing for the position.  The reason no one is competing against Josh Norman, DJ Swearinger, Monta Nicholson, Zach Brown, Ryan Kerrigan, Preston Smith, etc. for their starting spots are because they have already proven themselves to be above average starters in this league.  The Giants would not be having this open competition if they felt like they had someone who had already established themselves as an option they felt comfortable enough about to take all the first team reps.  And btw, so far, Halapio has been getting more 1st team reps than Jones.  That would not be the case if Jones performed as well last year as you seem to think he did.

 

I know Gettleman's reputation, and I mostly agree with his philosophy (though drafting Barkley at 2 was beyond idiotic) this offseason.  But just because they threw bodies at their trenches issue does not mean he threw the right bodies at the issue.  And yes, I do believe the Giants weaknesses are in the trenches where it matters most - pass rushing and pass protection.   I believe this is where they will consistently be exposed this year, and will be something that prevents them from making the leap that the media seems to think they will make.  I agree that Eli will likely be a major factor for their disappointing season as well.

[bakedtater1]

We're arguing about the rivaled Giants offensive line?...I'll tell ya this, there gonna have there hands full when they play this Redskins defensive line..just my two cents..

[Anselmheifer]

1 hour ago, carex said:

 

With Danny Johnson being one of the few UDFA making waves I have to think the best Stroman can do is PS.  Alexander gets a bit of a pass and is like the last DB, guaranteed to be inactive, for coming in late.  1

 

How many CB's and safeties did we keep on the roster last year?

 

Norman is 30 and is going to be expensive to retain. Scandrick is 31. I would hate to see us let our young CB's with potential go. I think Stroman has a ton of potential as a nickel CB and could easily see our starting CB's moving forward as Dunbar, Moreau, and Stroman at the nickel. I would also like to see us hold onto Holsey, who might be fated for IR this year and Danny Johnson, who has looked good. 

 

I'd rather see us keep only 5 WR's and keep more DB's. Our 6th WR is going to essentially see no time anyway and our WR's at the bottom of the roster are lesss likely to be grabbed off the PS by another team, than are our CB's, IMHO. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Vernon is an above average pass rusher.  The rest of their players are below average in this area.  That is not conducive to having a good overall DL.

 

 

I think Tomlinson and Harrison are above average DTs. Vernon above average DE.  As for the next guy it remains to be seen.  But I hate the Giants so I am done arguing this point with you if you want to think their D line is below average, have at it.  Lets agree to disagree.

 

1 hour ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

I get your point on Payne, but the difference is that the Skins drafted Payne because they saw him as more than just a run stuffer.  They think he can be a good pass rusher as well.  

 

Just because they might have saw him that way doesn't make it fact.  Tomlinson had more sacks in his last year in Alabama than Payne.  I doubt the Giants just drafted him thinking all he will be is a run stuffer.  All this stuff has to play out.   

 

1 hour ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

And I don't believe I have a major outlier position on the Giants OL issue.  

 

You are taking a wild detour here and going straw man but I'll give leeway here that its by accident on your end since we were on point before where it was a good debate     You know I said that point specific to your point that Solder was just marginally better than Flowers.  Here you abandon that specific point and turn into me making the case about your global point about the Giants O line, instead.  And, that's not true. 

 

I know people think the Giants O line sucks.  That's ironically a large part of my point.  Plenty of people also think the Redskins D line sucks too.  Plenty think the Redskins are one of the worst teams in the NFL headed to this season.  Same rationale -- past is prologue.  A large part of my point is its hypocritical IMO to hold the Giants to different standards to us.  Yeah we got our own rationale for why the naysayers are wrong.  But so do the Giants.  Same standards.

 

1 hour ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 And btw, so far, Halapio has been getting more 1st team reps than Jones.  That would not be the case if Jones performed as well last year as you seem to think he did.

 

IMO if you live by the sword then prepare for someone to use the same sword -- if you want to use PFF stats, when it helps makes your point then be prepared for someone to use the same metrics to question your points. So by PFF standards they like the Giants center and clearly they don't see Solder as just a hair better than Flowers.

 

For better or worse Gettleman's focus is to improve the O line.  If he thought their centers in house were serious downgrades from what they had in house -- he's going to end up looking like a dummy.  Maybe that's how it ends up.  You got me.  I am not selling stock in the Giants O line.  Just saying when you overhauling 4 out of your 5 O lineman -- you are going hard at making a change.  Does that change land?  I don't know.  But just to assume it won't just because seems presumptous. 

 

1 hour ago, HTTRDynasty said:

But just because they threw bodies at their trenches issue does not mean he threw the right bodies at the issue.  

 

Sure but why is that different here -- Payne and Settle are the solutions because of what?  Maybe yeah.  Maybe not. I am optimistic but that's just a feeling.  Hernandez was a mega touted OG.  We talked about Hill plenty on the draft thread as a potential nose fit here.  Ditto Carter for pass rush.  McIntosh got some hype too.  These aren't just bodies to me.  I recall those players narratives well leading into the draft.  Maybe they will all end up busts.  And our guys will be stars. Who knows?  I am just saying there are parallels to the Giants fixing weaknesses that have some apples to apples vibes to changes with this team, too.  In both cases its TBD. 

[HTTRDynasty]

@Skinsinparadise I think our arguing back and forth on this issue comes down to a fundamental difference on how we view the importance of the pass game vs. the run game (on both offense and defense).  I tend to view the pass game as by far the most important metric in determining a team's success, and by extension, in determining how good a unit (DL,OL) really is as a whole.  On the other hand, it seems like you give closer to a 50/50 weight between run vs. pass game importance (I know you still view the pass game as being more important though) and can see a DL as being "good" even if they are bad against the pass and an OL as being good even if almost all of their players are below average in pass blocking (TBD on Hernandez).  I'm sorry if I'm exaggerating your position, but this is just the vibe I get from your posts.  At this point, I don't think either one of us is going to convince the other poster one way or the other.  At the end of the day, we're both rooting for the same thing: for the Redskins to be successful and for the Giants to stink up the joint.  That's all that matters in my book .