SCOTUS: No longer content with stacking, they're now dealing from the bottom of the deck

[Fergasun]

So the Supreme Court decided that America is no longer racist?  

[Cooked Crack]

 

 

[The Evil Genius]

Kunta/Geordie knows what's up.

 

 

[TradeTheBeal!]

 

[The Evil Genius]

3 minutes ago, TradeTheBeal! said:

 

 

 

[@DCGoldPants]

Watch what's next. Schools like Harvard stop taking students from states like Florida and Texas because their curriculum doesn't cover what they feel is needed to enroll. Then you'll have lawsuits that its not fair to those kids that Florida doesn't teach real history anymore, or Texas science feels like religion. 

[The Evil Genius]

Anyone else know why Harvard, a private school, would be subject to this (or was included)?

[Fan since a Fetus]

1 hour ago, Fergasun said:

So the Supreme Court decided that America is no longer racist?  

 

 

You should’ve gotten the memo.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Fan since a Fetus

[tshile]

Very happy with this decision. Now just need to strike down the student loan bailout. 

[EmirOfShmo]

 

[Cooked Crack]

 

[bearrock]

1 hour ago, The Evil Genius said:

Anyone else know why Harvard, a private school, would be subject to this (or was included)?

Civil Rights Act

[PleaseBlitz]

2 hours ago, @DCGoldPants said:

Watch what's next. Schools like Harvard stop taking students from states like Florida and Texas because their curriculum doesn't cover what they feel is needed to enroll. Then you'll have lawsuits that its not fair to those kids that Florida doesn't teach real history anymore, or Texas science feels like religion. 

 

All questions in front of SCOTUS are now answered in favor of religion Christianity.  

 

www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/06/29/supreme-court-sabbath-work-religious-protections/

 

Quote

The Supreme Court on Thursday strengthened protections for religious rights in the workplace, siding in part with a Sabbath-observant mail carrier who quit the U.S. Postal Service after he was forced to deliver packages on Sundays.

 

Gerald Groff, the former postal worker, had asked the justices to overturn a decades-old Supreme Court decision, which his lawyers said undermines religious protections by allowing employers to deny accommodations that would cause them more than a minor inconvenience.

 

In a unanimous decision, authored by Justice Samuel A. Alito, the justices declined to get rid of past precedent, and instead clarified that employers must meet a higher standard to reject a workers’ request related to religious observance.

 

[Corcaigh]

If a student writes in their essay about how they, as a minority, have grown personally and learned to overcome the adversity of a racist society, could that be considered in admissions?

 

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by Corcaigh

[JCB]

Most studies show conclusively (and several good ones are in today's WAPO) that this will lead to the OVER-representation of caucasian and Asian folks. Great outcome, right color-blinders? And the arguments aren't even arguments, presented at the Supreme ****ing Court. The basic claim was that AA preserves class and social homogeneity through attention to racial identity. Absolute, unmitigated stupidity and yet another massive step backwards for this country.

[PeterMP]

2 hours ago, The Evil Genius said:

Anyone else know why Harvard, a private school, would be subject to this (or was included)?

 

Generally, nobody can discriminate based on race.  Your local business can't say I'm not going to serve people of race X or treat you different in providing my services because you are race X.

 

In addition, Harvard certainly takes federal money which expands a whole bunch of other regulations and government policies to them.

 

Even things like Title IX.

[Destino]

I’m not at happy with this decision but hopefully schools begin to focus on increasing admission of students born poor and living in poor areas as a work around. We talk a lot about systemic bias, but I’ve yet to see any systemic bias as obvious and intentional as poverty. Our justice system is designed to favor those that can afford lawyers. Our medical system is designed to benefit those that can afford insurance. Our public schools lack funding in poor areas. We judge people by what they drive and how they dress. Even failing to have a bright white set of perfect teeth is held against people.
 

Every single aspect of American life is structured so that being poor incurs a steep intentional and open penalty. They don’t even bother with dog whistles on this, they’ll go on tv and proudly proclaim that hunger is a great motivator.  ****s, every one of them.

[bearrock]

8 minutes ago, Corcaigh said:

If a student writes in their essay about how they, as a minority, have grown personally and learned to overcome the adversity of a racist society, could that be considered in admissions?

 

 

 

Yes.  Roberts alludes to that in his opinion 

 

Quote

nothing in this opinion should be construed as prohibiting universities from considering an applicant’s discussion of how race affected his or her life, be it through discrimination, inspiration, or otherwise

 

I'm not sure how big a difference this ruling will make in actual admission outcomes in the long run.

Edited June 29, 2023 by bearrock

[PeterMP]

6 minutes ago, Corcaigh said:

If a student writes in their essay about how they, as a minority, have grown personally and learned to overcome the adversity of a racist society, could that be considered in admissions?

 

 

 

Yes.

 

If college's want to take race into consideration, they are going to have to do a better job of documenting how and why they've done it.

 

And not have it just be based on some numbers they've made up and whether you checked a box.

 

For a place like Harvard, they definitely have the money to hire some more admissions officers and some data scientists to better understand how diversity is important to their intuition and come up with a plan that works.

 

Some of your larger state institutions that will be less feasible.  But if Harvard wants to be serious about this, this might actually help people that have real barriers to accessing a place like Harvard.

1 minute ago, bearrock said:

I'm not sure how big a difference this ruling will make in actual admission outcomes in the long run.

 

It'll make a difference if Harvard and places like that are serious about doing something.  They'll need more admission officers and to scrutinize applications more closely.

 

They'll probably have to do some work to document the benefits of having a diverse student population on the entire student population.

[Corcaigh]

If more nuanced admissions can actually be implemented is the key question. I look forward to the case when a desperately poor white kid from a West Virginia coal-mining community gets admitted ahead of Clarence Thomases privileged black grandkid.

 

My own kids were happy there was some selection process for the Virginia colleges they attended that was not only SAT score. Otherwise the College of William & Mary and the University of Virginia could be renamed Loudoun and Fairfax University.

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by Corcaigh

[TD_washingtonredskins]

7 minutes ago, Destino said:

I’m not at happy with this decision but hopefully schools begin to focus on increasing admission of students born poor and living in poor areas as a work around. We talk a lot about systemic bias, but I’ve yet to see any systemic bias as obvious and intentional as poverty. Our justice system is designed to favor those that can afford lawyers. Our medical system is designed to benefit those that can afford insurance. Our public schools lack funding in poor areas. We judge people by what they drive and how they dress. Even failing to have a bright white set of perfect teeth is held against people.
 

Every single aspect of American life is structured so that being poor incurs a steep intentional and open penalty. They don’t even bother with dog whistles on this, they’ll go on tv and proudly proclaim that hunger is a great motivator.  ****s, every one of them.

 

I was with you for a while, but how are you ever going to fix this? People are human beings and you are basically now pointing out that humans are likely to be biased toward more attractive people or things. What would you put into place to prevent an stained-toothed person from being discriminated against? And yes, I know it's your way of pointing out that someone with white teeth is more likely to have had the means of having their teeth corrected, but again, how do you control human bias? 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

10 minutes ago, Corcaigh said:

My own kids were happy there was some selection process for the Virginia colleges they attended that was not only SAT score. Otherwise the College of William & Mary and the University of Virginia could be renamed Loudoun and Fairfax University.

 

 

Is this no longer going to happen? 

[tshile]

My understanding was that AA for college admissions was more about making up for disadvantages along the way. I realize there’s also racial bias but I think most universities either are cognizant of that, or if that’s really how they want to operate they find ways around things like this anyways (like doing the bare minimum to check the box but otherwise not living up to the intent)

 

so sticking with making up for true disadvantages - my suggestion is and has been (and I credit the board for being the place this was introduced to me, years back) is to decouple local real estate taxes from public school funding

 

theres a reason school district is a key driver in real estate pricing - families mostly try to get into the best district they can afford. This leads to community segregation (and I think it’s more socioeconomics related not racially related but our society still tends to pin problems on race instead of socioeconomics despite my continual insistence people change that mindset) where people with money are grouped together and people without money are grouped together and the result is poor people have underfunded schools while the higher you climb on the latter you get better school districts. 
 

Condition of school, supplies, and ultimately staffing issues (including quality of staff) are all driven by this. 
 

if we fix public schools to create more equitable situations we can narrow or even get rid of the gap that’s created at college admissions time. 
 

i also seem to recall college admissions started shifting towards favoring white males because there’s been a huge drop in white males applying for and being accepted to schools and it created a big disparity. We had a thread on it recently. 
 

unsurprisingly, some of the people outraged at that, are now outraged at this. They never were for diversity. Their motives were quite exposed when that news became trending for a few weeks. 
 

If the goal is that race shouldn’t play a role - then race shouldn’t play a role. Find solutions that don’t use race to treat people differently. 

[The Evil Genius]

 

[tshile]

Oh and institute free breakfast and lunch programs. There are numerous studies that show this is hugely beneficial. We have a thread on that subject too. We have studies that show 30+ percentage point improvements in grades by just giving kids some cereal and pancakes with a glass of juice or milk in the morning. 
 

And you don’t even need studies just use your own damn experience. Everyone understands how hard it is to perform well when you’re starving. Everyone. This isn’t difficult to understand. 
 

finally - I’d like to see programs that work to put minorities in teaching positions. Not through some AA inspired quota system, but instead a system that recruits minorities to be teachers and supports them. There are numerous studies that show students perform better when they have people that look like them as teachers. Hell one study showed that simply making the proctor of the exam look like the students significantly increased test scores for those students - not even talking about teachers just the person that administers/proctors the test. 
 

 

I don’t think this problem will ever be solved because I don’t think the general public has the stomach to maturely discuss difficult things like this, and I don’t think the general public has the balls to get their hands dirty in trying things.

 

like this would be incredibly difficult to propose but given the aforementioned studies about students performing significantly better when teachers and proctors look like them - there’s an entire solution to discuss that segregates class rooms so that people are being taught by people that look like them. Surely there are pitfalls to the idea. But also mature adults who truly have the well being of children and what it means for them to get the most out of education, could sit down and navigate that discussion and see what sort of ideas come out of it. but just as surely, the general public is totally unable to have that discussion because of the past use of racial segregation in schools, which would make it impossible to ever have a thoughtful conversation about how to take this knowledge we have about how people learn and try to use it to make things better. 
 

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by tshile