The "Non" Mt Rushmore Symbols of the Dan Snyder Era

[Renegade7]

55 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Here's why Arrington would be in consideration...he's emblematic of the Snyder era due to expectations vs. actual production. He was drafted #2 overall and was touted as the next Lawrence Taylor (even wearing 56). He flashed for sure and had some solid-to-good seasons. But in the end, he was all sizzle and no steak. He was benched by a legendary coach because he couldn't play within the scheme (and keep in mind, this was during a time when our defensive scheme was leading this team). 

 

Meanwhile, with much less fanfare and build up, the guy drafted right after Arrington somewhat quietly played at an All-Pro level for years, made a few Pro Bowls, and is likely a top-5 left tackle in franchise history. 

 

Arrington and the fact that he never lived up to the hype IS THE DAN SNYDER REDSKINS. Not awful, but over-promised and under-delivered. 

 

That's tough, man, of all the players mentioned in this thread so far he's the only one that went to three probowls with us.  If he's a bust, he best bust of the Snyder era, and this is coming from someone who had his jersey but didn't want him in the ring of fame.

[Renegade7]

13 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

At your job, if you mess up most everything that really matters but get some little things right - would you expect to be given ‘credit’ for those little things you did right? Or beat up and most likely fired for all the big things you screwed up?

 

 

 

Depends on the job, mine is nothing like Snyder's, he has considerably more people working under him, many he doesn't hire himself.  Obviously some of the people he picked to run football operations haven't panned out as expected, but will Snyder get any credit for this last draft? Nope, but he gets credit signing signing Archuletta? 

 

Keep in mind he's also responsible for the team making money, which he must be doing something right if we're 4th most valuable franchise.  The problem with blaming Snyder for everything is exactly what I said, he gets blamed for specifics but not credit for specifics.

 

From my perspective, Snyder was in charge while a new more respect front office official was hired to team with a super bowl winning coach who traded up to draft a franchise qb.  We had been begging for that since he took over, it didn't work, sometimes it just doesn't work. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

19 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

That's tough, man, of all the players mentioned in this thread so far he's the only one that went to three probowls with us.  If he's a bust, he best bust of the Snyder era, and this is coming from someone who had his jersey but didn't want him in the ring of fame.

 

I never said "bust" at all...I'm saying that he's emblematic of the Snyder era. It's not like we go 4-12 every season. We are roughly a 7-9 team in his ownership period. To me, that's exactly who Lavar was...a pretty good player who was supposed to be (and drafted to be) a star. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

4 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Depends on the job, mine is nothing like Snyder's, he has considerably more people working under him, many he doesn't hire himself.  Obviously some of the people he picked to run football operations haven't panned out as expected, but will Snyder get any credit for this last draft? Nope, but he gets credit signing signing Archuletta? 

 

Obviously none of us have jobs like Dan.  But it doesn't really matter what you do for a living, if you perform your job at the level Dan has - you would be fired.  Lucky for Dan, he owns the team - so that's not an option.  As the owner of the team, everything good or bad falls on his shoulders for the environment he created and is responsible for.

 

As for the last draft, I think that's a silly thing to credit anyone for until the bullets actually fly.  But to your point - yeah, it's well known that Snyder has been heavily involved with player acquisition pretty much throughout his entire tenure.  It's only of late that you hear less about it and I guess it's a good thing that 15 years into his ownership he might finally realize that he doesn't know jack about football and should leave that to the professionals.  I'm certainly not going to give him credit for being a decade late on the learning curve.

 

11 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Keep in mind he's also responsible for the team making money, which he must be doing something right if we're 4th most valuable franchise.  The problem with blaming Snyder for everything is exactly what I said, he gets blamed for specifics but not credit for specifics.

 

Again - why should the fans care one iota about Dan making money off of them?  Go Dan, keep making that money playa!  Really?  How about actually employ sound organizational strategies and foster an environment conducive to winning, actually win some games, and make even more money the legit way?

 

13 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

From my perspective, Snyder was in charge while a new more respect front office official was hired to team with a super bowl winning coach who traded up to draft a franchise qb.  We had been begging for that since he took over, it didn't work, sometimes it just doesn't work. 

Sometimes?  To this point, every time it doesn't work.  Sure - it sounds nice to say he tried to do the right thing by hiring Bruce and Mike.  But as is evident by everything that's transpired since that time, he never truly let those guys work and kept his hands totally off.  It's not surprising that it ended in flames. 

[Renegade7]

45 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I never said "bust" at all...I'm saying that he's emblematic of the Snyder era. It's not like we go 4-12 every season. We are roughly a 7-9 team in his ownership period. To me, that's exactly who Lavar was...a pretty good player who was supposed to be (and drafted to be) a star. 

 

I see, this thread came across like the worst of the Snyder era, which I wouldn't put him the category of.

 

@BatteredFanSyndrome. I'll need to come back to your post later.  But your are making every reason under the sun to kill credit for anything he does do right, so I'm not sure where this is going to end up, given this a thread about everything that's gone wrong under his tenure.

[TSO]

4 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

The strange take is that Snyder gets full blame for everything that goes wrong, but limited if any credit for anything that goes right.  

 

I’m not sure you’re reading those numbers correctly. And don’t get me wrong, same goes for me. 

 

 Again, what’s more important is comparing the increase in revenue to the rest of the league. If we’re consistently increasing revenue at a below average rate, that’s not a positive sign. You can’t just go off of where the numbers were when Snyder bought the team to now. That’s why I mentioned that we were only behind the Cowboys initially (which is entirely based off memory, I could be wrong about that). The starting point matters. Location and per capita income play a major role, as well. 

 

We simply don’t have the information to make a sound judgment either way. 

 

But here’s the thing... I’m not sure what this has to do with giving Snyder credit?

 

If, say, your assessment is correct and he’s increased the team’s revenue at a solid rate, that could speak to fan loyalty, location and per capita income more than anything else. That anyone with any semblance of business sense could’ve pulled it off with the inherent positives of the franchise. 

 

Or it could be that he’s found a way to nickel and dime fans, which isn’t something we, as fans, should be giving him “credit” for, is it? 

 

I think it’s an interesting topic just from an economic sense, but anything more than that or to assess Snyder’s acumen in general? Not really. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

@BatteredFanSyndrome. I'll need to come back to your post later.  But your are making every reason under the sun to kill credit for anything he does do right, so I'm not sure where this is going to end up, given this a thread about everything that's gone wrong under his tenure.

I am 'making' every reason?  I never said Dan was the devil and that literally every single thing he's ever done in his life is awful.  But as far as being owner of the Redskins, he's been absolutely dreadful both in the win/loss column and PR.  We are nearly 20 years into his ownership and the win-loss record and happenings around Redskins Park all lend themselves to my point of view.

 

The point is that the items you listed as good things he's done is a very short list that remarkably pales in comparison to all of his wrongdoings.  Not only that but some of those positives you've listed are also a stretch.

 

If I go to a restaurant and the bread before the meal is okay and the mints in the lobby are fresh, yet the meal is overpriced, tastes like crap and makes me throw up - should I head to yelp and make sure the world knows they had some okay bread and fresh mints?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

15 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

If I go to a restaurant and the bread before the meal is okay and the mints in the lobby are fresh, yet the meal is overpriced, tastes like crap and makes me throw up - should I head to yelp and make sure the world knows they had some okay bread and fresh mints?

Are they hard candies or those gross, soft, chalky ones? 

17 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

But as far as being owner of the Redskins, he's been absolutely dreadful both in the win/loss column and PR.  We are nearly 20 years into his ownership and the win-loss record and happenings around Redskins Park all lend themselves to my point of view.

 

 

So, I'm not going to defend Dan Snyder, but in his 19 years he is proven to be mediocre, not dreadful. This team's average record is 7-9 from 1999-2017. I would venture to say that his on-field record is much "better" than the perception and off-the-field stories that happen on his watch. If his 132-171-1 record wasn't accompanied with all the other BS, I think we'd all have a slightly better opinion of the man. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 hour ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

So, I'm not going to defend Dan Snyder, but in his 19 years he is proven to be mediocre, not dreadful. This team's average record is 7-9 from 1999-2017. I would venture to say that his on-field record is much "better" than the perception and off-the-field stories that happen on his watch. If his 132-171-1 record wasn't accompanied with all the other BS, I think we'd all have a slightly better opinion of the man. 

I don’t necessarily disagree, if he was competent enough to put together a winning organization yet did some douche-like stuff on the side, we’d certainly let that slide.  But he’s sucked at pretty much everything.  To the point I can’t fathom anyone defending his ownership.  Sure, folks kill Dan the person and nobody really knows him.  But there is plenty more we do know for certain to fairly assess that he’s not a good owner.

 

 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

6 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I don’t necessarily disagree, if he was competent enough to put together a winning organization yet did some douche-like stuff on the side, we’d certainly let that slide.  But he’s sucked at pretty much everything.  To the point I can’t fathom anyone defending his ownership.  Sure, folks kill Dan the person and nobody really knows him.  But there is plenty more we do know for certain to fairly assess that he’s not a good owner.

 

 

 

Correct. I wasn't trying to praise him for averaging 7-9 over almost 20 years...but it is a data point. He's proven over a long stretch of time that he's capable of owning a mediocre team. The hurdle he has to clear (on the football side) is putting a consistent winning team on the field. 

 

I guess I'm only trying to add context. In some ways, it's intellectually dishonest to say he's "incompetent" from a football perspective. He's not successful, but I have to imagine there are many teams much, much worse than 132-171-1 over that same period. Therefore, he's not "awful" from a purely football perspective.  

 

Edit: Bringing it full circle, that is why Arrington felt like a perfect epitome of this era: not bad, but not nearly good enough for all the hype. 

[hail2skins]

1 hour ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

I guess I'm only trying to add context. In some ways, it's intellectually dishonest to say he's "incompetent" from a football perspective. He's not successful, but I have to imagine there are many teams much, much worse than 132-171-1 over that same period. Therefore, he's not "awful" from a purely football perspective.  

TD, I love you man, but I think you have to do a little research on this.  There are several teams in the "132" ballpark, but still have more Ws than the Skins over this timeframe.  You can count the number of teams with less than 132 on one hand, and one of them has been in the league for three less seasons than the Skins, and only one of the five is in our conference. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

23 minutes ago, hail2skins said:

TD, I love you man, but I think you have to do a little research on this.  There are several teams in the "132" ballpark, but still have more Ws than the Skins over this timeframe.  You can count the number of teams with less than 132 on one hand, and one of them has been in the league for three less seasons than the Skins, and only one of the five is in our conference. 

 

OK, I stand corrected. That's a little surprising to me since it averages out to 7-9. It must speak to the parity in the league that everyone averages 7+ wins over that time period. My bad on that. 

[hail2skins]

11 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

OK, I stand corrected. That's a little surprising to me since it averages out to 7-9. It must speak to the parity in the league that everyone averages 7+ wins over that time period. My bad on that. 

I think the Snyder era so far has largely been defined by the 12-year period between the firing of Marty (after one season!) and the Shanny flameout/hiring of Jay.  The Skins were 78-114 over that stretch, which equates to an average of 6.5 wins during that stretch. However, seven of those seasons featured double-digit loss totals, an 8-8 season had a collapse after a 6-2 start, and the 7-9 season contained two meaningless wins at the end of the season. A whole lot of Decembers with meaningless football in there. We have returned to the same level of "true" mediocrity under Jay that we had (and decried) in the latter years of Norv and the one year of Marty. 

[NoCalMike]

Arrington was the complete package coming out of college, but wanted to get by on his athletic gifts.  He played as if schemes don't matter and it would always just come down to whoever the best athletes on the field were.  I remember a game later in his 'Skins tenure, I believe it was a primetime game against Miami when Ricky Williams was there.  Arrington made a stop for no gain and was touted for his skills, then two plays later he abandons his running lane assignment trying to use "instincts" and Williams runs right by him on his way to a TD.  

 

It was very emblematic of Arrington's career on this team.  As much flash as he showed, and he definitely had a couple great seasons, he could have been so much more. 

 

He also had a habit of blaming everyone else for everything.

 

As far as the Snyder era overall goes. I honestly don't think the last decade has been nearly as bad as the the first decade of Snyder's ownership. The problem is until the team actually starts winning consistently or at least builds a roster that sustains a playoffish run for a few seasons with a chance to contend for the dance, Snyder will always be looked at as the same guy who bought the team going into the 1999 season. 

 

I'd say the past decade was more mediocre to average then the laughingstock of a franchise they were those first 10 years or so.   Not much to be proud of but there is still a difference, and hopefully the arrow is pointed in the right direction.  The thing that hurts the most for me personally when I try to look outside of the burgundy & gold bubble is that the NFL is a league of parity, on purpose.  It is purposely structured so every team can compete, maybe not every single season, but there is no reason last place teams can't become playoff teams in 2-3 seasons in the modern day NFL....the 'Skins are one of the few teams that still can't seem to do that consistently.  When they do manage to slip into the playoffs it's because every single bounce seemed to go there way and against their own division, and then they get promptly bounced in the first round as if the NFL gods are correcting a mistake.

[hail2skins]

1 hour ago, NoCalMike said:

As far as the Snyder era overall goes. I honestly don't think the last decade has been nearly as bad as the the first decade of Snyder's ownership. The problem is until the team actually starts winning consistently or at least builds a roster that sustains a playoffish run for a few seasons with a chance to contend for the dance, Snyder will always be looked at as the same guy who bought the team going into the 1999 season. 

 

I'd say the past decade was more mediocre to average then the laughingstock of a franchise they were those first 10 years or so.   Not much to be proud of but there is still a difference, and hopefully the arrow is pointed in the right direction. 

I consider the past four years under Gruden to perhaps be a step in the right direction, even, again, if performance-wise it is somewhat reminiscent of the mediocrity of the Norv years that we decried so much, in large part because we weren't that far removed from a 20+ year period when the Skins were considered one of the league's elite franchise. I think, despite the RG3 run at the end of 2012, Shanny's four years here overall might easily be the most disappointing from a football standpoint of the Snyder era.

 

The reason that the past decade might appear to be not as bad as the first decade is that Snyder has largely been under the radar and has supposedly stayed more away from the football operations. The first three years of Snyder's ownership on the field were not horrible.....it was just from a personal perspective, Dan was a total jerk...….for example, nobody necessarily would've blamed him for cutting Norv loose at the end of the 2000 season, but the way he treated Turner was inexcusable. And then ousting Marty and bringing Bugeyes back was when things started going off the rails. Gibbs' return brought a modicum of success, but in retro was just a short-term move, when the organization needed to have more of a longer term vision.  

[Riggo#44]

21 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

The strange take is that Snyder gets full blame for everything that goes wrong, but limited if any credit for anything that goes right.  

 

What has gone right under Snyder? We have how many 10 win seasons? 2, 3? We haven't won more than 10 since he took over. We've won 2 playoff games under him? None in the last 13 years. I think he gets more credit than he deserves.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

47 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

What has gone right under Snyder? We have how many 10 win seasons? 2, 3? We haven't won more than 10 since he took over. We've won 2 playoff games under him? None in the last 13 years. I think he gets more credit than he deserves.

 

The best we have here is that his wife is a good person that's done a lot for breast cancer and he started a foundation for native americans.  One isn't even about him and the other was literally a PR scheme on the heels of him saying he'd never change the name.  Oh and I forgot - he's grown the value of the team exponentially over his tenure as owner.  As if every other franchise in the NFL hasn't done the same in a profit sharing league.  As if fans are supposed to care about how much the team is worth off the field when it hasn't been worth jack on the field.

[Skinsinparadise]

I am not a Dan guy at all.  But I give him more credit on the charity front.  From what I've seen (and I've done some of their auctions and met the person who runs the foundation multiple times, Jane Rodgers), they are juggernauts on the charity front.  A lot of good people work at that building from my limited exposure.

 

I don't think Dan is evil.  I think Dan seems oddly stubborn about doing things HIS way even though his way mostly has resulted in losing.   IMO he cares more about the GM being his pal than a winner and he sometimes the people who surround him come off mean spirited when they feel scorned, let down or want to kick someone out the door.   Weird combination of incompetence and arrogance.

 

But on the charity front -- total stud from what I've seen.  I don't get why they don't carry that "charitable" vibe to the way they go about things publicly relating to the team.  

[bakedtater1]

If your born a Redskins fan you die a Redskins fan and everything in between is out of your hands..ride or die baby!

[Mr. Sinister]

I'm a vengeful spirit....

[youngestson]

Just put up 4 images of Danny $nyder. 

[RVAskins]

1. Adam Archuleta

2. Antwaan Randle El

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Granted the Vikings have a new facility so you'd expect it to be better.  You got guys like Cooley who more or less said Redskins Park is a dump even after their upgrades compared to a college facility let alone an NFL franchise.  Hopefully that comes with the new stadium.

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2784360-84-million-man-cant-be-satisfied-kirk-cousins-is-keeping-his-underdog-mindset

Going from the Redskins facilities to the Vikings facilities was like stepping from a former era into a future one. Redskins Park didn't even have a quarterback meeting room. During his recruitment, the Vikings offered Cousins a personal office. He turned it down because the quarterbacks room at the TCO Center has everything he needs: space for watching tape and preparing.

[spjunkies]

The fact that he turned out stadium into this tacky looking dump is all you need to know. 

 

[hail2skins]

9 hours ago, spjunkies said:

The fact that he turned out stadium into this tacky looking dump is all you need to know. 

Just can't believe you don't appreciate the beauty of the random red/yellow checkboard that is the club level portion of the seating bowl