Old School What-ifs

[Darth Tater]

After watching several Sean Taylor videos and a more objective where are they now type video on Laron Landry and along with a recent conversation about trading our 1981 second rounder for Joe Washington and getting lucky (according to Beathard) that Russ Grimm was still available in the third, basically traded our 1982 first to draft him and a discussion about Portis, I got to thinking about several what-ifs of my youth.

 

What if Paul Krause is never traded?  Would he have been paired in the 70s with Ken Houston? With a pair of HoF safeties, a HoF lb and the rest, would that defense be spoken of with the same reverence as the Steel Curtain? While the trade was several years before the Ramskins, the core of that trade did give us the ammo for that trade.

 

The first sad one.  What about Lombardi? (Can't bring myself to say more)

 

What if Charley Taylor doesn't break his leg against KC in 1971?  In only 1/2, he had 125 yards and 2 tds while his primary backup ended up with just 1 catch for 10 yards. Would that been enough at the margin to win the 3 or more that it would have taken to win the division or at least left us with enough offense to actually beat the 49ers that year?

 

While it was a loss, what would have happened if we'd actually beat Dallas in that 1979 game? Would we have ended up with Pardee in the 80s while Gibbs goes elsewhere? Would we have brought in Grimm and Jacoby? Would Riggo come back in 1980?

 

 

[CaptainChaos47]

I think my biggest what if has always been had Miami not drafted Dan Marino.  I can't imagine what Gibbs could have done with him at QB.  I love Green,  but can't help but think we get one or two more super bowls with Marino at the helm.

[hail2skins]

What if Charlie Malone doesn't drop a TD pass from Sammy Baugh that would've tied the 1940 NFC Championship Game at 7-7? (Sammy Baugh said the final would've been 73-7!)

 

Ok, that was probably too old school.  Some others:

 

What if Jeris White and Tony Peters, both of which were in the secondary in 1982, had played in the 1983 season?  Would we not have had the Pearl Harbor Crew and the Skins go 16-0? Would that have made a difference for the team's mindset heading into Tampa to play the Raiders?

 

What if the Cowboys had beaten the Lions in the 1991 divisional playoffs and set up a NFCCG matchup with the Skins? (I think the Skins still would beat the Cowboys that year, avenging our only REAL loss that season)

 

What if the Redskins had beaten the 49ers in the 1992 divisional playoffs and sets up a NFCCG matchup with the Cowboys? (That year, I think the Cowboys would beat us in the NFCCG)

 

What if the snap isn't botched in the 1999 divisional game against Tampa and Conway hits the FG?  Could the Skins beat the Rams in the NFCCG?

 

What if the Skins had beaten Seattle in the 2007 wild-card game, setting up a divisional round matchup with the Cowboys? Would a victory over Dallas had convinced Gibbs to stay in 2008?

 

 

 

[Nomadskin11]

Deeeeeeep. Thank you for bringing this up. I'm in popcorn mode as a long time lurker and humble appreciator. What if??!!! Wonderful thread idea... 

[tibbidoe]

What if John Kent Cooke had been able to buy the team after Jack Kent Cooke passed?

 

What if Marty Schottenheimer had been our coach for at least another couple of years?

[thebluefood]

What if GPM goes through with the sale of the Redskins to Clint Murchison (who planned to move the team to Dallas)? They were losing money, playing lousy football and the only reason it didn't go forward was because Marshall changed the terms of the deal at the last minute.

 

I contend that with the right leadership (the opposite of the expansion Senators of the same time) it could have been a pretty great opportunity for the D.C. Metro Area and pro football as a whole - especially since it would have gone down as the AFL was getting started. We could have had a great, divisional rivalry with the Colts (and later the Ravens) after the merger and had a chance to start fresh after GPM alienated most of the people around him and Griffith Stadium was in its last days before giving way to new D.C. Stadium.

 

New team in a new league playing in a new stadium for what was, essentially, a new city. 

[KillBill26]

21 minutes ago, tibbidoe said:

What if John Kent Cooke had been able to buy the team after Jack Kent Cooke passed?

 

That's the biggest question of this whole generation.  While some of the other what ifs effect a single year or a brief period, that dynamic changes the course of the entire franchise.  What if Snyder never bought the team?  Could it be the Redskins are a well run, highly respectable franchise with a sustained track record of winning?  Maybe even a model franchise with the likes of the Patriots Steelers and Packers?

 

I don't know how John Kent Cooke would've been as an owner, but based off the last twenty years, I would prefer taking my chances with whatever mystery is behind door number two.

[KillBill26]

17 minutes ago, thebluefood said:

What if GPM goes through with the sale of the Redskins to Clint Murchison (who planned to move the team to Dallas)? They were losing money, playing lousy football and the only reason it didn't go forward was because Marshall changed the terms of the deal at the last minute.

 

Wow that's interesting.  Dallas filled with Redskins fans.  Dogs and cats living together.  Mass hysteria!!

[thebluefood]

6 minutes ago, KillBill26 said:

 

Wow that's interesting.  Dallas filled with Redskins fans.  Dogs and cats living together.  Mass hysteria!!

https://sportsday.dallasnews.com/dallas-cowboys/sportsdaydfw/2012/11/21/horn-what-if-the-redskins-had-actually-moved-to-dallas-50s-deal-almost-made-move-a-reality

Quote

Then, in the waning days of the 1958 season, the millionaire oilman thought he hit a gusher.

Having dreamed of owning a football team for as long as he could remember, Murchison negotiated to buy the Washington Redskins. The deal advanced so far that Murchison had prepared a cashier’s check for $600,000 to hand over to Redskins owner George Preston Marshall.

Then came a sticking point. Murchison had agreed to allow Marshall, 62, to stay on and run the team for five years after the sale. That would be the same Marshall whose team was floundering and fan base disappearing. If it doesn’t sound like the savviest of business decisions, it might show just how badly Murchison wanted to own a NFL team.

But just before the sale was to be announced, Marshall decided he wanted 10 years.

Murchison’s response unsealed the deal.

“Tell him,” Murchison instructed his negotiators, “to go to hell,”

 

[tibbidoe]

30 minutes ago, KillBill26 said:

 

That's the biggest question of this whole generation.  While some of the other what ifs effect a single year or a brief period, that dynamic changes the course of the entire franchise.  What if Snyder never bought the team?  Could it be the Redskins are a well run, highly respectable franchise with a sustained track record of winning?  Maybe even a model franchise with the likes of the Patriots Steelers and Packers?

 

I don't know how John Kent Cooke would've been as an owner, but based off the last twenty years, I would prefer taking my chances with whatever mystery is behind door number two.

 

Completely agree. Snyder buying the team has been bad for us, to say the least.

[BleedBNG]

6 minutes ago, tibbidoe said:

 

Completely agree. Snyder buying the team has been bad for us, to say the least.

 

True, but it almost went to a New Yorker

https://www.nytimes.com/1999/04/27/sports/plus-pro-football-washington-redskins-are-sold-for-800-million.html

 

[Darth Tater]

1 hour ago, hail2skins said:

What if Charlie Malone doesn't drop a TD pass from Sammy Baugh that would've tied the 1940 NFC Championship Game at 7-7? (Sammy Baugh said the final would've been 73-7!)

 

Ok, that was probably too old school.  Some others:

 

 

 

I was thinking more of old school being when you were a kid.  I don't think you are in your 80s.  Maybe you are.

 

BTW, I think if John Cooke was able to buy the Redskins, we'd likely still pretty much be the same team on the field except maybe a little more mediocre with no real bad years but no playoffs either and we may not be one of the favorite whipping boys.  Although maybe that gets into another what-if of mine which makes us the team of the early 2000s: Joe Gibbs returns in 1999 and that team (or the 2000 one) goes to the SB.

 

Goes to another, what-if Conway isn't knocked out of it after 2 games? We almost certainly would have beat Arizona and New York with OT against the Eagles.

[dyst]

1. What if we drafted anyone but Heath Shuler

 

2. What if we kept Brad Johnson

 

3. What if we kept Trent Green

 

4. What if we kept Marty

 

5. What if Lerner bought the team

 

6. What if Aaron Rodgers over Campbell

 

7. What if RG3 was humble and didn’t get hurt

 

8. What if Sean Taylor was around for that playoff run

 

[c slag]

3 hours ago, tibbidoe said:

What if John Kent Cooke had been able to buy the team after Jack Kent Cooke passed?

They would still be playing in Jack Kent Cooke Stadium in Raljon MD with all 100,000 seats intact with probably no talk of any new stadium deal 

[skins island connection]

Ok everyone, time to bring out the MOAWI { Mother Of All What Ifs }

 

What if  " Plan B " was never thought of, or at least never passed?

 

What would the league look like?  Would there be expansion teams?  Would they have re-aligned into 4 divisions? Would Seattle be having the success they had? Would RGIII and Kirk Cousins still be drafted by the Redskins? Would New England be the perennial winning team they are?

 

Plan B changed the demographics and changed the NFL, and gave players all of the leverage. I honestly believe had it never passed, even in today's world, we wouldn't see $100,000,000 contracts being signed by players; maybe 20-30 million but not where it is today.

[carex]

14 hours ago, thebluefood said:

https://sportsday.dallasnews.com/dallas-cowboys/sportsdaydfw/2012/11/21/horn-what-if-the-redskins-had-actually-moved-to-dallas-50s-deal-almost-made-move-a-reality

 

 

he's willing to sell and his teams sucked, what the hell was wrong with Marshall he wanted to keep going when he had a buyer

[thebluefood]

22 minutes ago, carex said:

 

he's willing to sell and his teams sucked, what the hell was wrong with Marshall he wanted to keep going when he had a buyer

Who can say? Marshall had already sold a bunch of the team's shares in '61 (that's when JKC's involvement with the team started) and had a stroke soon afterward and was already on a steep mental decline. For numerous reasons, he had no business running that team anymore and his botching that deal with Murchison is proof of it.

 

I dunno how much he sold the shares to JKC and Edward Bennet Williams for but he could have had $600K in his pocket immediately and done something else with his life.

[NickyJ]

2 hours ago, skins island connection said:

Ok everyone, time to bring out the MOAWI { Mother Of All What Ifs }

 

What if  " Plan B " was never thought of, or at least never passed?

 

What would the league look like?  Would there be expansion teams?  Would they have re-aligned into 4 divisions? Would Seattle be having the success they had? Would RGIII and Kirk Cousins still be drafted by the Redskins? Would New England be the perennial winning team they are?

 

Plan B changed the demographics and changed the NFL, and gave players all of the leverage. I honestly believe had it never passed, even in today's world, we wouldn't see $100,000,000 contracts being signed by players; maybe 20-30 million but not where it is today.

What's Plan B? I never heard of it before.

[The Rook]

My "recent" what-if (other than Aaron Rodgers) is signing Drew Brees instead of the trade for Mark Brunnell.  The man is still lighting it up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Rook

[tibbidoe]

12 hours ago, NickyJ said:

What's Plan B? I never heard of it before.

 

"Plan B" free agency

Plan B free agency was a type of free agency that became active in the National Football League in February 1989 to 1992. Plan B free agency permitted all teams in the NFL to preserve limited rights of no more than 37 total players a season; if a player was a protected Plan B free agent, he was incapable of signing with another team without providing his old team the first opportunity to sign him again. The rest of the players were left unprotected, liberated to negotiate contracts with the rest of the teams in the league.

Eight players sued the NFL in U.S. federal court, stating that Plan B was an unlawful restraint of trade. In 1992, a jury found that Plan B violated antitrust laws and awarded damages to these players.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_agent

 

NFL Is in Violation of Antitrust Laws, Jury Decides

 

14 hours ago, skins island connection said:

Plan B changed the demographics and changed the NFL, and gave players all of the leverage. I honestly believe had it never passed, even in today's world, we wouldn't see $100,000,000 contracts being signed by players; maybe 20-30 million but not where it is today.

 

I was young and just starting to really get into football when Plan B was tried. Haven't really thought about since, until just now.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Mine is 1986...

 

That year, I believe we were the 2nd best team in the league and a better team than the 1987 team which won the Super Bowl. It wasn't a close game, but if we somehow could have gotten by the Giants in the NFC Championship Game, imagine the ripple effect. 

 

I believe we win that Super Bowl over the Broncos, though they seemed a little more solid than they were the following year. If that happens, Gibbs gets Super Bowl #2 one year earlier, but I don't think we win in 1987 in such historic fashion. We almost certainly trade Williams, removing any temptation to bench Schroeder. I don't think we win 3 playoffs games with Jay and we don't get to see Doug make Super Bowl and cultural history. We also may not decide to flip Schroeder to the Raiders for Lachey which impacts the 1991 Super Bowl. 

[Hazel-Ra]

Before my time but, what if Phil Robertson (QB- Louisiana Tech) who started in front of Terry Bradshaw hadn't turned down an offer to play for the Redskins (allegedly because it would interfere with his hunting) instead of eventually starting  Duck Commander?

 

Could he have excelled, nullifying a need for Sonny, Billy, or even Joe in the 70's? Probably not as it seems likely Bradshaw would have passed him on the depth chart in 68 had Robertson chosen to play... but still.

[scruffylookin]

I enjoy stuff like this.

 

I'll offer my opinion on some of the "what ifs" proposed in this thread.

 

What if the Skins beat Dallas in 79?

 

I think that Riggins still holds out for more money. The whole "he was devastated due to that loss" is either a lie or an exaggeration. Riggins was looking to get paid and he was flakey enough to actually hold out an entire season to do it.

 

I think that the Redskins may have reached the Super Bowl though certainly lose to the Steelers.

 

Pardee would have been able to survive the 80 season thus no Gibbs in 1981. However Gibbs was not a "hot name" at the time. He may have been available in 1982 if we decided to make the change after 1981.

 

We still have Jacoby and Grimm (and Manley, Grant etc). Bobby Beathard was making the selections. Gibbs had no power in 1981. He was just the coach.

 

What if the Dolphins passed on Marino?

 

The Redskins would have passed on him too. No way do the Redskins draft a guy with the drug questions swirling (rightly or wrongly) around him. Especially with the issues they were likely dealing with in private with Tony Peters (and became public with his arrest that summer).

 

I think a better what if regarding QB is either what if the Redskins held on to their 1st round pick in 1984 and drafted Boomer Esaison? The Redskins were clearly in the market for a QB to groom in 1984, they spent a 3rd rounder on a project in Jay Schroeder. If the Redskins had selected Boomer and let him sit a year and compete in 85, the Redskins would have been a much bigger force in the late 80's to early 90's and perhaps could have wrestled "Team of the 80's" away from SF.

 

The other is what if we went ahead with the trade for John Elway in 1991? I'm guessing not much different. That team still crumbles due to age and the cap in 1993/94 and Elway is shipped off elsewhere.

 

Draft anyone but Heath Shuler in 1994?

 

Realistically it was either Heath or Trent Dilfer. We were not taking anyone else. If we went Trent, I think the only impact is that there is no "Gus Bus" and the Redskins have the same mixed/mediocre results in the mid to late 90's except now it would be with Dilfer instead of Gus.

 

Plan B

 

Free Agency was coming. It was a matter of time. I don't think if there was no "Plan B" that we would not have free agency today. Plan B was a last ditch desperate attempt by the owners to maintain control over player movement by giving the illusion of free agency with Plan B. I still think free agency is declared in the early to mid 90's in the courts. I'd say however that if there was no Plan B, the Redskins maybe don't have a Super Bowl season in 1991.

 

 

I'll offer one what if here;

 

What if Jack Kent Cooke sided with Beathard in 1989 over Gibbs in their power struggle? What would Bobby have done in shaping the Redskins future in the 90's?

 

Does he maybe bring back Jack Pardee (one year before he returned to the NFL to coach the Oilers)?

Does he promote Richie?

Does he promote Bugel (one year before he leaves for the head coaching job in Phoenix)?

Does he go find a coach in college (like he did in SD with Bobby Ross)?

 

For me it is a catch-22. I think without Gibbs, we start cutting older players sooner and thus no Super Bowl season in 1991. On the other hand under Beathard's lead, the Redskins would likely stay competitive for a longer period and not nose dive in 1992/93 but I'm not sure that we ever get to a Super Bowl. Those Cowboys and 49ers teams were simply great followed by the Packers.

 

 

 

 

[Buddha]

What if we had traded one of our 7th rounders in the 2000 draft to move up 5 spots in the 6th to select Tom Brady instead of staying put and drafting Todd Husak?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

12 minutes ago, scruffylookin said:

 

What if Jack Kent Cooke sided with Beathard in 1989 over Gibbs in their power struggle? What would Bobby have done in shaping the Redskins future in the 90's?

 

Does he maybe bring back Jack Pardee (one year before he returned to the NFL to coach the Oilers)?

Does he promote Richie?

Does he promote Bugel (one year before he leaves for the head coaching job in Phoenix)?

Does he go find a coach in college (like he did in SD with Bobby Ross)?

 

For me it is a catch-22. I think without Gibbs, we start cutting older players sooner and thus no Super Bowl season in 1991. On the other hand under Beathard's lead, the Redskins would likely stay competitive for a longer period and not nose dive in 1992/93 but I'm not sure that we ever get to a Super Bowl. Those Cowboys and 49ers teams were simply great followed by the Packers.

 

 

 

 

Well done! 

 

I'd love for you to weigh in on mine above (If we had gone to/won Super Bowl XXI)...

 

My take on your scenario above is that we'd have been MUCH better prepared for free agency. That, more than anything, is what killed us in the pre-Snyder 1990s doldrums. I agree that we'd have likely moved on quicker than we did. Remember, Gibbs was under a lot of pressure to go young after a bad 1988 and OK 1989. If he wasn't there, I think we would have been rebuilding right as Dallas was doing the same. No 1991 Super Bowl (which has a ripple effect of its own because the Lions and Bills in the Super Bowl would have been fascinating). Agreed that we'd have resembled Beathard's San Diego blueprint and dipped into the college ranks for a coach. I assume we'd have rebuilt modestly well and we'd have been a pretty good team in the 90s. With a longer-tenured coach, who would have gotten Turner? Who would have ultimately taken over at GM and head coach for us as we headed to the Snyder years? 

 

This stuff is fascinating...