Old School What-ifs

[Darth Tater]

1 minute ago, Buddha said:

What if we had traded one of our 7th rounders in the 2000 draft to move up 5 spots in the 6th to select Tom Brady instead of staying put and drafting Todd Husak?

Todd Huge Sack would probably have lots of rings and Tom Brady would be telling his buddys' around the water cooler about the time he was on an NFL team.  OK, that's reaching about Todd Huge Sack.

[scruffylookin]

On ‎5‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 3:47 PM, TD_washingtonredskins said:

Mine is 1986...

 

That year, I believe we were the 2nd best team in the league and a better team than the 1987 team which won the Super Bowl. It wasn't a close game, but if we somehow could have gotten by the Giants in the NFC Championship Game, imagine the ripple effect. 

 

I believe we win that Super Bowl over the Broncos, though they seemed a little more solid than they were the following year. If that happens, Gibbs gets Super Bowl #2 one year earlier, but I don't think we win in 1987 in such historic fashion. We almost certainly trade Williams, removing any temptation to bench Schroeder. I don't think we win 3 playoffs games with Jay and we don't get to see Doug make Super Bowl and cultural history. We also may not decide to flip Schroeder to the Raiders for Lachey which impacts the 1991 Super Bowl. 

 

I love that 1986 team. It is my favorite non-Super Bowl season and if I'm being honest, I enjoyed the 86 season more than 87, though the 87 finale made it all worth it.

 

I agree that the 86 Redskins beat the Broncos in the Super Bowl. They should have beat them in Denver if not for Max Zendejas missing kicks again in Game 15 of that season. No question that overall, they were the 2nd best team to the Giants that year. Even if McMahon (highly overrated QB) had stayed healthy in Chicago.

 

I agree that Doug is traded to the Raiders in the offseason. The question is who is brought in to be the back up? No way we go with Mark Rypien in 1987. He was still in the "oh darn he has this mystery injury......off to IR" mode.

 

When the strike hits, do players cross in an attempt to defend their title and not fall behind in the standings? If so, does that rip the team apart?

 

I agree that ultimately the 87 team does not repeat and perhaps misses the playoffs entirely. Depends on the Giants since the Cowboys and Cardinals were fading and the Eagles were not quite ready. How do the Giants react to being upset in the Championship Game? They now have unfinished business. I suspect the Giants would have won the division.

 

As for Jay, depending on how the veteran backup does while he is out in 87, he likely hangs on and enters 1988 as the firm starter but Rypien takes over whenever he gets his shot.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

2 minutes ago, scruffylookin said:

 

I love that 1986 team. It is my favorite non-Super Bowl season and if I'm being honest, I enjoyed the 86 season more than 87, though the 87 finale made it all worth it.

 

I agree that the 86 Redskins beat the Broncos in the Super Bowl. They should have beat them in Denver if not for Max Zendejas missing kicks again in Game 15 of that season. No question that overall, they were the 2nd best team to the Giants that year. Even if McMahon (highly overrated QB) had stayed healthy in Chicago.

 

I agree that Doug is traded to the Raiders in the offseason. The question is who is brought in to be the back up? No way we go with Mark Rypien in 1987. He was still in the "oh darn he has this mystery injury......off to IR" mode.

 

When the strike hits, do players cross in an attempt to defend their title and not fall behind in the standings? If so, does that rip the team apart?

 

I agree that ultimately the 87 team does not repeat and perhaps misses the playoffs entirely. Depends on the Giants since the Cowboys and Cardinals were fading and the Eagles were not quite ready. How do the Giants react to being upset in the Championship Game? They now have unfinished business. I suspect the Giants would have won the division.

 

As for Jay, depending on how the veteran backup does while he is out in 87, he likely hangs on and enters 1988 as the firm starter but Rypien takes over whenever he gets his shot.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So in your alternate timeline, we still have the ability to deal Jay for Lachey...

[scruffylookin]

49 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

So in your alternate timeline, we still have the ability to deal Jay for Lachey...

 

Probably not.

 

If Doug fails in LA in 1987, I doubt Al Davis trades with us again for Jay in 88. He thought we were suckers back then because he "won" the Calvin Muhammed trade and the Malcolm Barnwell trade in 1984 and 85 respectively. So if he "loses" a trade to us, he likely would not do business with us again and so soon.

 

If Doug did well, then there is no need for a QB.

 

I think Jay loses the job fair and square to Ryp and is shipped elsewhere in 1989.

 

What we do at Left Tackle, I have no clue.

[Darth Tater]

@TD_washingtonredskins

Would Bobby have built the "right" way? He traded the pick that would have been Grimm for a good RB who lost the starting job to Riggins (Washington did become a quality backup/3rd down guy for a couple of years and was a good starter in 1981), basically traded a 1982 #1 for Grimm (good deal though), a 1984 #1 for a 1983 #2 to get a RB that never played a down for us (ended up being cut), traded a number 1 in 1985 for an aging George Rogers (he did give us two OK years) and traded the 1987 first round pick to draft a dance master WR who held out possibly because Beathard refused to budge on the contract (Beathard was probably right to do so). On the flip side, he did find us some late round gems (though the availability of Kelvin Bryant was probably driven by the USFL) and got Gary Clark in the supplemental. Also, when you are talking late picks and UDFAs, you have to wonder how much of their success is due to the coaching staff, the attitude of the player and how willing the actual scout was to support his scouting. Bobby's rep is pretty much built on his 1979 and 1981 rookie classes, his ability to find second tier FAs and getting Joe Gibbs despite the fact that his boss wanted a name. At San Diego he made some good picks but also some awful ones and had modern free agency so any trade issues were a non-starter. Further, the talent guy was probably as much Charley Casserley as it was his assignment to find the 1987 scrubs that lead to Washington feeling comfortable letting Beathard go while promoting Casserley who had been promoted to Assistant GM in 1982 because of his part in the 1979 through 1981 off seasons. Finally, from 1991 to 1995, we actually did build the right way but mostly the talent was limited in the draft, the coaching staff was not really good at developing guys and the NFL was in flux over that period.

 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

@Darth Tater great post. 

 

I do think it's fascinating because it's a chicken-or-egg thing with our "steals" during that time frame. Was Gary Clark really that great, or was he a pretty talented guy who was put in the PERFECT scenario (great coaching, good protection for the QBs, deadly play-action team, and playing opposite a HOF player)? 

 

I wonder that about the current Steelers...are they really this good at hitting on skill position talent (no matter who they throw out there opposite Brown, they get production) or are they just dropping "good" players into perfect situations? 

[Darth Tater]

I was revisiting this topic because I recently watched the 1977 game against the Rams which had the pre-game show Jimmy the Greek did not think both the Vikes and the Bears would win (one maybe but not both).  If the Bears or the Vikings had lost, we'd have been in the playoffs. The Vikes beat the Rams to face Dallas.   Makes me wonder if Allen would have got the extension he sought had he taken that team to another NFCCG.  If he did, what guys would never have become Redskins?

[Warhead36]

Two big ones:

 

1999 playoff game in Tampa. If we don't miss that FG we're in the NFC title game in St. Louis. Our D was starting to round into form and I think our O could have handled with the Greatest Show. Potentially could have played the Titans in the Super Bowl.

 

2005 playoff game in Seattle. If Rogers doesn't drop a sure fire pick 6 we're in the NFC Title game against a good but not great Carolina team. Probably make the Super Bowl that year.

 

The biggest one though is the RG3 injury. If managed more correctly he'd probably be putting up MVP seasons and Shanahan would be rounding out a HOF resume with a potential Super Bowl run.

[hail2skins]

40 minutes ago, Darth Tater said:

I was revisiting this topic because I recently watched the 1977 game against the Rams which had the pre-game show Jimmy the Greek did not think both the Vikes and the Bears would win (one maybe but not both).  If the Bears or the Vikings had lost, we'd have been in the playoffs. The Vikes beat the Rams to face Dallas.   Makes me wonder if Allen would have got the extension he sought had he taken that team to another NFCCG.  If he did, what guys would never have become Redskins?

Interesting. I assume back then the rules were that the wild card team couldn't play a team in their own division if that team had the best record, as Dallas did?  That Cowboy team likely would've demolished us in the playoffs, just like I think the 1992 Dallas team would have if we had beaten the 49ers in the divisional round that year. 

[Darth Tater]

25 minutes ago, hail2skins said:

Interesting. I assume back then the rules were that the wild card team couldn't play a team in their own division if that team had the best record, as Dallas did?  That Cowboy team likely would've demolished us in the playoffs, just like I think the 1992 Dallas team would have if we had beaten the 49ers in the divisional round that year. 

You are probably right as that Cowboys team did win the SB that year. In the game at Dallas that year, we only had 1 net passing yards. I do believe we could not have played Dallas in the wild card, I even think that was mentioned in the pre-game. More that I wonder what would have happened had Allen just got to the CG (not to the SB) and if he then got extended for at a few years would the pick we used on Monk not have been ours?

 

By the way, the coach of that Bears team was Jack Pardee.

 

I also got a partial play-by-play account of the loss to the Steelers in 1973.  We lost 21-16 but Brown(?) got the ball ripped out of his hands on a sure TD pass.

[Playaction2Sanders]

On 5/25/2018 at 4:07 PM, hail2skins said:

 

 

Ok, that was probably too old school.  Some others:

 

What if the Cowboys had beaten the Lions in the 1991 divisional playoffs and set up a NFCCG matchup with the Skins? (I think the Skins still would beat the Cowboys that year, avenging our only REAL loss that season)

 

What if the Redskins had beaten the 49ers in the 1992 divisional playoffs and sets up a NFCCG matchup with the Cowboys? (That year, I think the Cowboys would beat us in the NFCCG)

 

What if the snap isn't botched in the 1999 divisional game against Tampa and Conway hits the FG?  Could the Skins beat the Rams in the NFCCG?

 

What if the Skins had beaten Seattle in the 2007 wild-card game, setting up a divisional round matchup with the Cowboys? Would a victory over Dallas had convinced Gibbs to stay in 2008?

 

 

 

 

 

Dallas? What if Philly hadn't lost Randall Cunningham? They were much more of a threat than Dallas was in '91 best Defense they probably ever had. But it gets lost in the fray because he was out. It would have been us vs Philly cause say they win 12/13 games with Randall. Atl is out so first round its Dallas at NO and Chicago at Philly. I bet NO beats Dallas. Philly takes care of Chicago. So nows it Philly vs Detroit and us vs NO. Philly beats Detroit and we take care of NO. That championship game could be a whole 'nother discussion on its own. 

 

I would say to answer your question though Dallas was pretty beat up by the time they played Detroit so I think we get our revenge on them but Dallas does put up more points than Det. did.

 

'92 Yea I don't know if its much of a contest. I think our D keeps us in it but we had no offense. Byner was hurt, no Ervins, no Ricky Sanders, idk if he comes back for the Dallas game, no Darrell Green not to mention Rypiens troubles that year. I think Dallas takes it 27-17

 

'99 I think we give the Rams a run for their money. Our defense definetly would have been confident because they did play well vs TB and our offense was much better than Tampa's I think we take that game. 31-28 in OT.

 

'07 that would have been a interesting situation. We played Dallas well that year, maybe we do surprise them. I don't think we beat GB though. I still think Gibbs would have been done though. 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Here's my what ifs.

 

What if Heath Shuler didn't get hurt vs the Rams in '95 how long would he have been our QB? I actually got to ask Norv this question when he was in San Diego. I didn't even need to finish my sentence he knew exactly what I was talking about..

 

How far would the '89 team had gone had they not lost to NY and Philly at the start of the season?

 

What if we won 1 of those games during that '96 slump at the end of the year where we finished 9-7 and missed the playoffs..

 

What if Westbrook doesn't get hurt in '00

 

What if we kept half our draft picks we traded away from '03-07 ( Thanks Vinny)

[TD_washingtonredskins]

15 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

Two big ones:

 

1999 playoff game in Tampa. If we don't miss that FG we're in the NFC title game in St. Louis. Our D was starting to round into form and I think our O could have handled with the Greatest Show. Potentially could have played the Titans in the Super Bowl.

 

2005 playoff game in Seattle. If Rogers doesn't drop a sure fire pick 6 we're in the NFC Title game against a good but not great Carolina team. Probably make the Super Bowl that year.

 

The biggest one though is the RG3 injury. If managed more correctly he'd probably be putting up MVP seasons and Shanahan would be rounding out a HOF resume with a potential Super Bowl run.

 

I'm not trying to nitpick, but I think that 1999 offense was running on fumes. We had played well against a very average Lions team, but outside of that we had lost all of our autumn momentum. You are 100% correct about our defense though, it was peaking. I would love to see what a Rams/Redskins NFC title game would have looked like, but I don't think we'd have scored enough to beat them (remember, that Rams team had a very good D also). 

 

Similarly, in 2005, by the time we played Seattle we had ZERO on offense. We only won the TB game because we essentially scored 14 points on D (one TD and another return inside the 10). I'm not sure how much we'd have left against the Panthers. The interesting thing about that season though would have been the NFC having a 5 vs. 6 in the NFC Championship and the AFC sending a 6 to the Super Bowl. Can you imagine if two 6's matched up in the Super Bowl that year???

9 hours ago, Playaction2Sanders said:

 

'07 that would have been a interesting situation. We played Dallas well that year, maybe we do surprise them. I don't think we beat GB though. I still think Gibbs would have been done though. 

 

 

In 2007, I think we'd have played the Giants if we got past Dallas. They beat GB in the NFC Championship Game, so there's no reason to think they wouldn't have won in the divisional round. 

 

Imagine beating Dallas and New York (like you said, we played very well against both teams that year) on our way to a Super Bowl?? 

[Dancing Bear]

Modifying a couple of thoughts.

 

What if Heath Shuler did not hold out and missed those first 20 days of training camp? 

 

What if we have stay put and drafted Ryan Tannihill?

 

What if we have been able to trade for John Elway?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

2 minutes ago, Dancing Bear said:

Modifying a couple of thoughts.

 

What if Heath Shuler did not hold out and missed those first 20 days of training camp? 

 

What if we have stay put and drafted Ryan Tannihill?

 

What if we have been able to trade for John Elway?

 

I think Shuler was going to fail no matter who much TC he got. It was clear that he lacked the aptitude and arm strength to really ever do much in the NFL. 

 

I think Tannehill is also a bust. Now, maybe the team would have been better around him with the extra picks, but I don't think our QB play would have been as high. Think about the output we've gotten at QB in 2012, 2015, 2016, and 2017. We had a lull in 2013-14, but Tannehill wouldn't have approached what we've gotten in 4 of the 6 seasons since that draft. 

 

I've always been curious about Elway to the Redskins. What would Gibbs have done with a top-tier QB? Imagine being able to overcome the Giants in a couple of those seasons (1990) or having a longer window of opportunity to challenge Dallas into the mid-1990s. 

[Dancing Bear]

18 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I think Shuler was going to fail no matter who much TC he got. It was clear that he lacked the aptitude and arm strength to really ever do much in the NFL. 

 

I think Tannehill is also a bust. Now, maybe the team would have been better around him with the extra picks, but I don't think our QB play would have been as high. Think about the output we've gotten at QB in 2012, 2015, 2016, and 2017. We had a lull in 2013-14, but Tannehill wouldn't have approached what we've gotten in 4 of the 6 seasons since that draft. 

 

I've always been curious about Elway to the Redskins. What would Gibbs have done with a top-tier QB? Imagine being able to overcome the Giants in a couple of those seasons (1990) or having a longer window of opportunity to challenge Dallas into the mid-1990s. 

Yeah, you may be right when it comes to Shuler.

Tannihill, yeah he's a bust with the 'phins but who knows how we could have help with with still having those draft picks.

Elway and Gibbs would have equaled 5 Super Bowls wins, imo!!!!

[scruffylookin]

39 minutes ago, Dancing Bear said:

 

Elway and Gibbs would have equaled 5 Super Bowls wins, imo!!!!

 

The trade was proposed in 1991. The Redskins started falling apart in 1992 and crashed in 1993.

 

Elway would not have saved them. The Redskins would have won the same amount of titles (1) as they did with Rypien, assuming that whomever they got to replace Jim Lachey (the price for Elway) wasn't a complete bum.

 

 

[Diehard Otis]

On 5/25/2018 at 7:37 PM, tibbidoe said:

What if Marty Schottenheimer had been our coach for at least another couple of years?

It begins and ends here for me.  I still have difficulty accepting that a Hall of Fame Caliber Coach (in my opinion) fell right into our laps & was run outta town for a shiny new toy.

 

Yeah, I know Marty came to town and pissed off a lotta the wrong people--and humiliated Darrell Green--but the man was a PROVEN Winner.  All he did was build Super Bowl Caliber Teams.  He did that at every stop except DC because we dropped him for a College Coach.

 

A College Coach.

 

That one's tough to swallow.

[NickyJ]

26 minutes ago, Diehard Otis said:

Yeah, I know Marty came to town and pissed off a lotta the wrong people--and humiliated Darrell Green--but the man was a PROVEN Winner.  All he did was build Super Bowl Caliber Teams.  He did that at every stop except DC because we dropped him for a College Coach.

Dropped for a college coach sounds bad, but for Super Bowl caliber and all that... Sounds a lot like the story we got with Shanahan early on. Maybe Marty works out, maybe he doesn't, but I doubt he was a slam dunk.

[Diehard Otis]

15 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

Dropped for a college coach sounds bad, but for Super Bowl caliber and all that... Sounds a lot like the story we got with Shanahan early on. Maybe Marty works out, maybe he doesn't, but I doubt he was a slam dunk.

Okay, fine. 

 

Yes, there's a bit of conjecture on my part (I'll own up to that), but Schottenheimer's resume was impeccable. Cleveland, Kansas City, & San Diego are became Super Bowl Caliber Teams during his tenure(s).  We all know his failing was Winning in The Playoffs, but he built Conference Powerhouses - no doubt about that.  But here he wasn't given a fair shake (1 season?).  That is my biggest gripe with Synder to this day.

 

And yes, he was dropped for a College Coach - that's not hyperbole.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1 hour ago, scruffylookin said:

 

The trade was proposed in 1991. The Redskins started falling apart in 1992 and crashed in 1993.

 

Elway would not have saved them. The Redskins would have won the same amount of titles (1) as they did with Rypien, assuming that whomever they got to replace Jim Lachey (the price for Elway) wasn't a complete bum.

 

 

 

Elway played until 1998...I think we may have had a little quicker rebuild in the mid-1990s with him as our QB. Those teams in 1995-1997 were pretty young and competitive. 

[Darth Tater]

41 minutes ago, scruffylookin said:

 

The trade was proposed in 1991. The Redskins started falling apart in 1992 and crashed in 1993.

 

Elway would not have saved them. The Redskins would have won the same amount of titles (1) as they did with Rypien, assuming that whomever they got to replace Jim Lachey (the price for Elway) wasn't a complete bum.

 

 

Thing is, offensively the only thing we were really missing was a top QB by 1995 and Lachey was done. We won the only game he missed in 1991. In the 6 games he missed in 1992, we did go 4-2. The 1991 draft really got nothing and 1992 we made a move for Desmond. The overall draft was mediocre but we did originally have 6 and 28 and there is an argument that Howard would have been available at 6. Also, Bob Whitfield who, while no Lachey, did play till 2006 and was the starter for Atlanta from 1993 to 2003 and did get one pro-bowl was available. We could have had Mcardell and Smith or Pickens for Elway to throw to. With that set-up, Gibbs might not have retired after the 1992 season (I've been told by former players that he just did not want to go through another rebuild) and maybe we hold onto Schlereth. Hard to say what picks would have been available to us in 1994, but Larry Allen was available until middle of the second while Tre Jonson (probably would have been better than Allen if he did not have injury issues). So by 1995, you may end up with the Hogs 2.0 and a new, young posse.

1 hour ago, Diehard Otis said:

It begins and ends here for me.  I still have difficulty accepting that a Hall of Fame Caliber Coach (in my opinion) fell right into our laps & was run outta town for a shiny new toy.

 

Yeah, I know Marty came to town and pissed off a lotta the wrong people--and humiliated Darrell Green--but the man was a PROVEN Winner.  All he did was build Super Bowl Caliber Teams.  He did that at every stop except DC because we dropped him for a College Coach.

 

A College Coach.

 

That one's tough to swallow.

From rumors I heard, we had promised a coaching job to SOS after week 5 of the 0-5 stretch. Also the plan was to have Bobby run the show but we shot ourselves in the foot on that one.

[TheBlueIndian]

What if DC hadn't tried to strong arm JKC on the stadium deal

 

Insisting that he use select contractors and builders to erect a new stadium in the shadow of RFK., Resulting in the giant concrete monstrosity of a middle finger tout in Landover.