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Welcome to the Washington Redskins Da'Ron Payne DT Alabama

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We all hope Payne becomes/is a dominant pass rusher for us.  Right now though, I’ll take the guy that was 2nd in the NFL in pass pressures by interior linemen before his injury.  

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I just realized we have 4 (maybe 5) guys who are definitely gonna be circling that Texans game on the schedule.  Allen, Payne, Anderson and Dion Hamilton (if he makes the team) are gonna want revenge on Watson after losing to him in the 2017 National Championship game. And Swearinger is gonna want revenge on the team that released him early in his career. 

 

These guys (especially Swearinger) are gonna get the rest of their teammates fired up too. We’re sure to see an extra passionate defense for that game, and I love it. 

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3 hours ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

If ya wanna talk about Tim Settle, you're posting in Da'Ron thread -  dis is Da'Right thread, for that...

 

http://es.redskins.com/topic/421649-welcome-to-the-washington-redskins-tim-settle-dt-virginia-tech/?page=3

 

:)

Your a little slow don't you think???? How about sticking to football, rather than the resident pain in the ass!!! IOW - worry about yourself, I am sure there is plenty there to keep you busy!!! smh!

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6 hours ago, mistertim said:

Most teams are wary about drafting one year wonders, but we took a one game wonder at 13th overall. I certainly hope he'll be the same guy from the title game, but I don't necessarily expect it, at least right off the bat. 

Wow, this can't be serious, can it? :ols:

1 hour ago, THE HAMMER'IN HOG said:

Your a little slow don't you think???? How about sticking to football, rather than the resident pain in the ass!!! IOW - worry about yourself, I am sure there is plenty there to keep you busy!!! smh!

You're 

 

Don't insult other posters, especially when they're attempting to help you. 

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I understand that people get more excited about sacks. Sacks are sexy. Who wants broccoli when you can go straight to the Make Your Own Sundae Bar.  Me? I'm stoked about getting a guy who forces the other team to punt after a 3rd and one or makes sure we get the ball back on 4th and one. We've been a sieve that no offense respects. Even the worst rushing team in the NFL felt perfectly comfortable going for it on 4th and two and running straight up the gut. We've been that way for nearly ten years. If you try to tell me that fixing a ten year long problem is easy or not worth a first round pick; I'll tell you that you are wrong.

 

If this guy becomes Dave Butz and controls the middle, making the center of the offense a no man's land and pushes the offensive line backwards even if he doesn't get a ton of sacks or even pressures... it will make a world of difference. If he can do that, he'll be an invisible MVP while all the other players get gobs of credit and pro bowls because of what Payne makes happen.

 

I'm more than okay with that.

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3 hours ago, THE HAMMER'IN HOG said:

Unnecessary comment removed.

 

@Malapropismic Depository was actually trying to help you out and did so politely and had a little fun with it. Instead of making it personal either say thanks or nothing at all. Totally uncalled for to insult the person trying to help you.  

 

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

Wow, this can't be serious, can it? :ols: in response to Da'Ron Payne. 

 

 

 

Saying he is a one game wonder is a bit of a stretch. But there are legitimate concerns that I have outlined earlier. He doesn't finish much and he gets stood up a bit too easy at the line of scrimmage. Some of that may be what he was asked to do. But even many of his highlight reels do not show him actually tackling someone. He gets to them based on quickness but someone else gets the actual tackle. 

 

Having said that, he has off the chart athleticism, and from all reports works extremely hard, and is very coach-able. And he is very good in run support something this team obviously needs. I have faith in Tomsula to coach him. But it's fair to have some reservations. 

 

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12 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

@Malapropismic Depository was actually trying to help you out and did so politely and had a little fun with it. Instead of making it personal either say thanks or nothing at all. Totally uncalled for to insult the person trying to help you.  

 

 

Saying he is a one game wonder is a bit of a stretch. But there are legitimate concerns that I have outlined earlier. He doesn't finish much and he gets stood up a bit too easy at the line of scrimmage. Some of that may be what he was asked to do. But even many of his highlight reels do not show him actually tackling someone. He gets to them based on quickness but someone else gets the actual tackle. 

 

Having said that, he has off the chart athleticism, and from all reports works extremely hard, and is very coach-able. And he is very good in run support something this team obviously needs. I have faith in Tomsula to coach him. But it's fair to have some reservations. 

 

I think it's fair to critique him, sure, but he just spent 2 years being talked about as a first rounder. The last 3 DTs from Bama have all been solid pros and he's far more talented. 

 

He may not have all the stats, or highlights, but everyone around him does and when you wonder why there's such big holes for them, just look at him. 

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1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

Wow, this can't be serious, can it? :ols:

 

As far as rushing the passer and getting into the backfield it absolutely is serious. Prior to that game, if you watch all of his cutups, he was pretty mediocre; decent but not any sort of game changer or a dude who really stood out. Good at holding the point of attack, nice burst off the line, but for the most part nonexistent when it came to getting into the backfield. And whenever you heard draftniks talk about him before the draft that's basically all they talked about...how good he looked in that one game. Before that game you didn't really hear all that much about him. IMO if he didn't have that game he'd maybe have been a 2nd round pick but possibly even later...mostly because he was a Bama guy and not because of his body of work. 

 

1 hour ago, Burgold said:

I understand that people get more excited about sacks. Sacks are sexy. Who wants broccoli when you can go straight to the Make Your Own Sundae Bar.  Me? I'm stoked about getting a guy who forces the other team to punt after a 3rd and one or makes sure we get the ball back on 4th and one. We've been a sieve that no offense respects. Even the worst rushing team in the NFL felt perfectly comfortable going for it on 4th and two and running straight up the gut. We've been that way for nearly ten years. If you try to tell me that fixing a ten year long problem is easy or not worth a first round pick; I'll tell you that you are wrong.

 

If this guy becomes Dave Butz and controls the middle, making the center of the offense a no man's land and pushes the offensive line backwards even if he doesn't get a ton of sacks or even pressures... it will make a world of difference. If he can do that, he'll be an invisible MVP while all the other players get gobs of credit and pro bowls because of what Payne makes happen.

 

I'm more than okay with that.

 

I can understand that general feeling and we certainly did need to address our run defense, but the NFL is a passing league today and rushing the passer is at a premium. Pure run stuffers who weren't also at least somewhat prolific at rushing the passer are pretty much never taken that high as you can find those guys in later rounds. Think about all the interior DL guys taken in the 1st round in recent history. Pretty much all of them were at least pretty good at pass rushing in college. Even the behemoths like Vea, Shelton, Raji etc had at least decent pass rushing production before getting to the NFL. And Dave Butz was great against the run but he was also a pretty prolific pass rusher for an interior DL and for the time period.

 

It just sort of irks me that we (IMO) reached for a guy purely based on need with the hope that we'd also get the guy who showed up in the national championship game (IIRC Jay has already talked about hoping he'll be able to get after the passer as well). We know that Doug said there was disagreement on what to do with that pick in the draft room. I'm guessing some guys wanted to go with superior talents like James or Edmunds but others were thinking in terms of pure need to help stop the run and wanted to go super safe with Payne. I think there's very little chance he'll be a bust because he's a good kid and a hard worker and is physically talented. But I also am not sure, based on what I saw in his college tape, that he'll ever really be a stud or an impact player. Though of course I hope that we get the guy who played in that game and not the guy from the rest of his film and I'd be thrilled if it happened. I'm just not necessarily holding my breath.

Edited by mistertim
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@mistertim I don't understand the Bama thing being a knock. Like I just said. The last 3 Bama DTs have all been solid pros and they didn't have one game like he did, nor the physical skills, and definitely not the ceiling. 

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15 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

@mistertim I don't understand the Bama thing being a knock. Like I just said. The last 3 Bama DTs have all been solid pros and they didn't have one game like he did, nor the physical skills, and definitely not the ceiling. 

 

IMO the Bama thing isn't a "knock" because most of them are at least solid pro players, yeah. But they get tons of hype because of the school and the overall defensive system they come from so that can propel a "good" or decent overall player into suddenly being considered "elite" from a draft perspective. They're mostly extremely safe picks because you pretty much know there's very little chance of them being total busts.

 

For example look at how everyone talks about Payne being such an insane athlete. But if you look at his combine the only thing that truly stood out was his 40 time. Most other interior DL guys were around the same as far as their numbers. Harrison Smith, at about the same size, blew him out of the water in pretty much every measurable but 40 yard dash, and also had a ridiculously productive college career as a NT, but he was hardly talked about. IMO if he had been a Bama guy he'd have easily been a 1st round pick. And that's where the hype comes in. The hype from draftniks and scouts has to be justified so Payne's good combine performance suddenly turned into an "OMG this guy is an insane athlete!" combine performance. 

 

And I do think Payne will be a "solid" pro. But you don't look for a "solid" guy at 13th overall, you look for a game changer. And I don't really see Payne that way. from what I saw in his tape And c'mon, Jonathan Allen was a far superior prospect to Payne. He had a better combine and a far far more productive college career. Allen IMO is a game changer and will be this year. 

Edited by mistertim
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I think Payne could have been had a few spots later. We don't know. Allen should have been a top 3 pick. I don't see how any of that matters now. Seems kinda knit picky. Time will tell on Payne's production. 

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28 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I think it's fair to critique him, sure, but he just spent 2 years being talked about as a first rounder. The last 3 DTs from Bama have all been solid pros and he's far more talented. 

 

He may not have all the stats, or highlights, but everyone around him does and when you wonder why there's such big holes for them, just look at him. 

 

That's fair. I will say my critique is not just on stats. A truly great NT is going to be light on stats. So that honestly does not factor in for me at all. Even when I talk about tackles it's not that he does not have many, it's when I watch him on film he gets to guys but does not finish. My concerns are based on what I have seen in terms of his play. 

 

But I do agree he is coming from a great program that has produced some really high quality players. It's also why I said some of how he plays has to do with what he was asked to do at Alabama - going along with your point about others getting numbers. That's another reason I do not worry so much about stats. 

 

And let be clear - I am not down on Da'Ron. He has so much raw athleticism the sky is the limit - and I hope he gets there. 

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17 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

IMO the Bama thing isn't a "knock" because most of them are at least solid pro players, yeah. But they get tons of hype because of the school and the overall defensive system they come from so that can propel a "good" or decent overall player into suddenly being considered "elite" from a draft perspective. They're mostly extremely safe picks because you pretty much know there's very little chance of them being total busts.

 

For example look at how everyone talks about Payne being such an insane athlete. But if you look at his combine the only thing that truly stood out was his 40 time. Most other interior DL guys were around the same as far as their numbers. Harrison Smith, at about the same size, blew him out of the water in pretty much every measurable but 40 yard dash, and also had a ridiculously productive college career as a NT, but he was hardly talked about. IMO if he had been a Bama guy he'd have easily been a 1st round pick. And that's where the hype comes in. The hype from draftniks and scouts has to be justified so Payne's good combine performance suddenly turned into an "OMG this guy is an insane athlete!" combine performance. 

 

And I do think Payne will be a "solid" pro. But you don't look for a "solid" guy at 13th overall, you look for a game changer. And I don't really see Payne that way. from what I saw in his tape And c'mon, Jonathan Allen was a far superior prospect to Payne. He had a better combine and a far far more productive college career. Allen IMO is a game changer and will be this year. 

 

While I agree with some of your concerns as we have discussed earlier, I would point to things a other than the combine - an entirely overblown process - for his athleticism. His get off is insane. And when he stays down he just drives guys backwards. His ability to get off blocks with both power and speed is part of that athleticism and he is very good when he stays down. Also, he has great instincts especially when it comes to the run game. I honestly think the combine does many players a disservice. It started out as a way for guys to maybe improve their stock. But now 4 yrs of play can be wiped out because a guys 40 was a little slow at the combine or they are light on the bench, of their shuttle is a slow, etc. To me it's way over-hyped. I look at the combine results but only as a part of the overall process and put a lot less emphasis on it than many do. 

 

I also agree that we took Payne a little high - but now he is here. And for me once they put on a NFL uniform where they got picked is meaningless. It's all about what they do on the field. 

 

I do disagree with putting a ceiling on his potential. I see him as having the potential to be great. Better yet I can see him and Allen being the nucleus of a really strong inside rush and run defense for years to come. If that happens then picked 13th or 113th he will be a great value. 

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3 hours ago, mistertim said:

And I do think Payne will be a "solid" pro. But you don't look for a "solid" guy at 13th overall, you look for a game changer. And I don't really see Payne that way. from what I saw in his tape And c'mon, Jonathan Allen was a far superior prospect to Payne. He had a better combine and a far far more productive college career. Allen IMO is a game changer and will be this year. 

 

Sorry man, I agree with a lot of what you're saying on Payne, but I can't let this slide.  Allen did NOT have a better combine than Payne.  Payne is far more athletic, especially given the weight difference.

 

Jonathan Allen

Height: 6'3"

Weight: 286

40 Yard Dash: 5.00 sec

10 Yard Split: 1.73 sec

Bench Press: 21 reps

Vert Jump: 30"

Broad Jump: 108"

3 Cone Drill: 7.49 sec

20 Yard Shuttle 4.50 sec

 

Da'Ron Payne

Height: 6'3"

Weight: 311

40 Yard Dash: 4.95 sec

10 Yard Split: 1.67 sec (hundredth of a second faster than Joey Bosa)

Bench Press: 27 reps

Vert Jump: 28.5"

Broad Jump: 107"

3 Cone Drill: 7.58 sec

20 Yard Shuttle 4.71 sec

 

He's putting up similar, or better, numbers than Allen despite weighing 25 pounds more.

 

The main reason Allen's numbers from last year stuck out in my mind is because I was going back and forth with a poster on a NFL Draft forum who was adamant that Allen would only be a step above JAG at the next level due to his poor combine numbers.  That he wasn't explosive enough to be an impact player.  He compared him to other guys his size and at his position throughout history who put up similar combine numbers and were all busts.  He thought that was the main reason Allen slid in the draft, not the shoulder.  Even after the 5 games Allen played last year, the dude still holds that opinion.  He'll see how wrong he is this year when Allen plays a full season.

 

But the bottom line is that Allen isn't some athletic wonder, far from it in fact.  He wins mostly on superior skill (especially hand usage) and technique.  Which isn't a knock on him, it just kind of is what it is.

 

 

 

Regarding Payne, I remember an interview Doug Williams did after the first round.  I remember him saying he called Jonathan Allen after making the Payne pick and said "You better be right".  I thought that was an interesting comment.  It implies a certain level of trust and faith in JA's evaluation on his friend.  I started wondering what it could possibly be about: Character?  No, Payne has no character concerns.  Run Defense?  Doubt it.  Everyone knows Payne is a stud there.  Pass Rushing?  This is what I think that comment could be about.  We all know that Alabama plays in a 2-gap scheme under Saban, so it's really hard to project what a player like Payne can do in the 1-gap system that we run.  There just isn't much film out there of Payne only being responsible for 1 gap.  My guess is that Williams went to Allen and asked how Payne projects in the Redskins system and Allen gave Payne a glowing review.  I'm willing to give Allen the benefit of the doubt, because we saw what Payne could do in a "Bear" front during the NC game, where Georgia was forced to only assign one OL on him.  If that's what Payne looks like against single coverage, or even double coverage when he's focused on just shooting into the backfield, sign me up.  And even though it was only one game, I would guess that we have more insider access on what Payne can do more than any other team, thanks to Jonathan Allen and Ryan Anderson.  I'm guessing we used those resources, and came away willing to take the risk and to trust our guys to know what the guy they played next to for multiple years on a daily basis can and can't do.

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2 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Sorry man, I agree with a lot of what you're saying on Payne, but I can't let this slide.  Allen did NOT have a better combine than Payne.  Payne is far more athletic, especially given the weight difference.

 

Jonathan Allen

Height: 6'3"

Weight: 286

40 Yard Dash: 5.00 sec

10 Yard Split: 1.73 sec

Bench Press: 21 reps

Vert Jump: 30"

Broad Jump: 108"

3 Cone Drill: 7.49 sec

20 Yard Shuttle 4.50 sec

 

Da'Ron Payne

Height: 6'3"

Weight: 311

40 Yard Dash: 4.95 sec

10 Yard Split: 1.67 sec (hundredth of a second faster than Joey Bosa)

Bench Press: 27 reps

Vert Jump: 28.5"

Broad Jump: 107"

3 Cone Drill: 7.58 sec

20 Yard Shuttle 4.71 sec

 

He's putting up similar, or better, numbers than Allen despite weighing 25 pounds more.

 

The main reason Allen's numbers from last year stuck out in my mind is because I was going back and forth with a poster on a NFL Draft forum who was adamant that Allen would only be a step above JAG at the next level due to his poor combine numbers.  That he wasn't explosive enough to be an impact player.  He compared him to other guys his size and at his position throughout history who put up similar combine numbers and were all busts.  He thought that was the main reason Allen slid in the draft, not the shoulder.  Even after the 5 games Allen played last year, the dude still holds that opinion.  He'll see how wrong he is this year when Allen plays a full season.

 

But the bottom line is that Allen isn't some athletic wonder, far from it in fact.  He wins mostly on superior skill (especially hand usage) and technique.  Which isn't a knock on him, it just kind of is what it is.

 

 

 

Regarding Payne, I remember an interview Doug Williams did after the first round.  I remember him saying he called Jonathan Allen after making the Payne pick and said "You better be right".  I thought that was an interesting comment.  It implies a certain level of trust and faith in JA's evaluation on his friend.  I started wondering what it could possibly be about: Character?  No, Payne has no character concerns.  Run Defense?  Doubt it.  Everyone knows Payne is a stud there.  Pass Rushing?  This is what I think that comment could be about.  We all know that Alabama plays in a 2-gap scheme under Saban, so it's really hard to project what a player like Payne can do in the 1-gap system that we run.  There just isn't much film out there of Payne only being responsible for 1 gap.  My guess is that Williams went to Allen and asked how Payne projects in the Redskins system and Allen gave Payne a glowing review.  I'm willing to give Allen the benefit of the doubt, because we saw what Payne could do in a "Bear" front during the NC game, where Georgia was forced to only assign one OL on him.  If that's what Payne looks like against single coverage, or even double coverage when he's focused on just shooting into the backfield, sign me up.  And even though it was only one game, I would guess that we have more insider access on what Payne can do more than any other team, thanks to Jonathan Allen and Ryan Anderson.  I'm guessing we used those resources, and came away willing to take the risk and to trust our guys to know what the guy they played next to for multiple years on a daily basis can and can't do.

 

I think Allen and Payne are both highly athletic but in slightly different ways. Allen more so with agility, balance,and lateral movement and Payne more with pure burst off the line. At least that's my take from watching them both.

 

The thing with me about Allen vs Payne is that when I watched Allen's film before the 2017 draft I immediately saw a guy who was dominant and who was obviously the best player on the best defense in college football. No matter what the front was he was constantly making plays and standing out. With Payne's film, at least from the regular season, I mostly saw a cog in a machine. He didn't really pop out to me. 

 

As far as Saban's defense, they run a ton of fronts. It's a hybrid, not a pure 2 gap system. They'll run some 2 gap, some 3-4 or 4-3 Under 1 gap fronts, some 3-3-5 Over, some 3-4 Bear, some 3-4 Okie with lots of quirks and other things thrown in depending on the down and distance and situation. So yes Payne had plenty of snaps where he was 2 gapping, but he also had plenty where he was 1 gapping and you can see that in the film. When he was 1 gapping and trying to shoot through he just wasn't very effective usually. Seemed like he got way too high out of his stance often when rushing the passer and once a lineman got his hands on him he had a tough time getting off the block and continuing into the backfield (though he is good at getting off of blocks when in pure run stopping mode). He also didn't seem to have many pass rush moves and his counters seemed relatively nonexistent so once his first move was stymied he was often basically out of the play. I think his poor TFL and sack numbers support that. The guy literally had 1 TFL all season. That's just bad and blaming it on the system is a bit simplistic since, as I was pointing out, Saban runs all sorts of fronts so he had gap shooting opportunities in games.

 

I'm not saying he can't be a good pass rusher but right now I think that area of his game is pretty underdeveloped. The national championship game was an anomaly. Not sure what the deal was there because he suddenly seemed more effective at shooting gaps. Maybe he was just in the zone. Maybe he'd been working on his penetration and pass rushing techniques. Maybe Georgia played him in a dumb way (they definitely did on some occasions...I remember a couple of snaps where Bama was in a 4-3 Under front where Payne was lined up as a 3 tech against a Guard and for some reason Georgia decided to let the Guard free and pull the Center over to block him...which is really stupid when talking about a guy with Payne's get-off from the line. On one occasion they tried it and the Center didn't even get close to him in time and Payne went basically untouched into the backfield). 

 

Anyway, I certainly hope that he ends up being a dominant force in the run and passing game but at this time I just don't necessarily expect it. With Allen I expected it based on what I saw from his film. But it would be a terrific surprise if it happens. As far as Doug's comment....it kinda made me nervous. Made it sound like Allen was sort of the deciding voice but the scouting/personnel department had reservations. Allen obviously knows the game but he isn't a pro scout and add in the fact that these guys were all close on that team so obviously they're friends and are familiar and would like to play together again. I guess we'll just have to see what happens.

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1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

@goskins10 and @HTTRDynasty, you guys just knocked it out of the park for me. I'm higher on him than most, but that "one game wonder" comment got under my skin. :ols:

I can understand this, but I think the context of the statement makes sense.  He had one game in which he really put his pass rush skills to use.  Or maybe 1 game in which he succeeded with those skills.  Either way, the comment was purely about the pass rush productivity.

 

Now, with that said, there needs to be a distinction between sacks, pass pressure, and pushing the pocket.  Our very own Preston Smith is a great example of this.  His sack numbers were decent, but not impressive, but you have to think ranking so high in pass pressure affected the QBs (and our dbs and other pass rushers) quite a bit.  Not sure how Payne did in this area, but even pushing the pocket a bit, although it won’t show up on the stat sheet, can be a big help to a team’s pass rush.  

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seeing the footage people have posted here it looks like he might not have had many sacks, but he had some pressures and with our other guys that could be enough

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Sacks isn’t Payne’s game it’s wrecking havoc in the middle of the line. That won’t show up on the stats. That shows up on the other guys sacks.

 

What has me puzzled is how good can this guy actually be? With him being 21 end of this month his ceiling is ahead of him. 

 

pfr-aging-curve-for-nfl-defensive-player

 

Comparable player taken ahead of him Vita Vea is 23. Age is a piece of this puzzle with these guys. This position is one of the highest bust rates in the draft however. If he’s the real deal something to watch

 

 

 

 

Edited by bobandweave

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Some of you have way too much time on your hand hating on this pick.  This the single smartest thing we've done this century.  Who cares if he isn't all-pro, if NT becomes a strength of our team it turns our Front 7 into the strength of our team as well.  If it's reasonable to expect him to be better later in his career then he was in college, we might even be contenders without even realizing it yet.

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59 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

Sacks isn’t Payne’s game it’s wrecking havoc in the middle of the line. That won’t show up on the stats. That shows up on the other guys sacks.

 

Thing is, from the sorts of things they've been saying, it certainly sounds like the Skins want/expect him to also be able to pass rush well. So I think that's something they're going to expect him to produce on and live up to. Hopefully his pass rushing issues were purely technique (from what I saw in his cutups when he was rushing the passer I think they mostly were) so I'm sure they'll be coaching him up on it quite a bit.

 

After picking him Gruden was saying that he's not just a run stopper because they see "potential" for his pass rushing (likely meaning they think he just needs to be coached up and are hoping it will work) and then he cited the Georgia game..surprise surprise. As a run stopper he's a super safe pick. As an all around interior DL he's pretty risky because if you end up with a guy who's basically just a 2 down dude and you have to sub out on passing downs because he can't get to the QB then you basically wasted a 13th overall pick. Well, maybe not completely wasted, but definitely reached in a huge way when you had some other top notch prospects on the board.

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Isn't being 9th among DTs in pressures last year (sacks + hits + hurries) a pretty good indication that he knows how to get to the QB?  I understand wanting to see him finish more (sacks)... but the impact of pressures on games is generally underrated IMO, especially coming from the interior, and can lead to some game-changing INTs (especially with Montae, Norman, and Swearinger at DB).

 

 

 

Good article by PFF here on the importance of pressures: https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-the-importance-of-pressure-its-not-all-about-sacks

 

Every great team needs the ability to rush the quarterback. In PFF’s recently released Foundation Draft in fact, the first non-QB selected was Joey Bosa, a second-year edge defender who showed elite ability at rushing the quarterback as a rookie. Despite a general wherewithal of the overall importance of pass-rushers, there still seems to be plenty of debate as to what actually makes up an elite pass-rusher.

 

While often times it’s the players who tally the highest sack totals that get heaped with praise, simply using those totals to define who is and who isn’t an elite pass-rusher is an extremely unreliable, and frankly in 2017, lazy method. Pressure comes in a variety of forms and pass-rushers have a great ability to positively affect any given play for their team, even if they aren’t finishing the play off with a sack.

 

When looking at passer ratings from last season you can easily see the drastic effect that pressure can have even when the quarterback is still able to get off a pass: Aaron Rodgers led 37 qualified quarterbacks last season with a 93.8 passer rating while under pressure; 27 of those signal callers had a passer rating higher than 93.8 on attempts coming from a clean pocket. The average NFL passer rating fell from 99.3 to just 64.6 last season when pressured.

 

When looking at interception rates we see a very similar trend; there were 219 interceptions thrown by these 37 quarterbacks on 12,100 pass attempts from a clean pocket, a rate of 1.8 percent. When pressure was applied that rate shot up to 3.1 percent as they combined to throw 153 interceptions on 4,942 attempts.

Edited by HTTRDynasty
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Oh I agree that pressures are important and have an impact, but sacks are better. What I think Payne really needs to do is work on finishing. When watching his film I saw plenty of plays where he was able to get some push and make the QB move some but he just couldn't finish and get there. I think a lot of his ability to get that push is purely his strength and motor as he didn't really display much in the way of pass rush moves and he was way too upright many times when one gapping and trying to get into the backfield which allowed linemen to easily get under his pads. He also seemed to essentially have no counter moves so he'd be able to get some push and with his strength make the QB move but when he couldn't get all the way there he was basically just stopped dead because he didn't seem to know how to counter what the OL guy was doing to stop him. Hopefully Gruden is right and he can be coached up and change to a finisher. 

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21 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Wow, this can't be serious, can it? :ols:

You're 

 

Don't insult other posters, especially when they're attempting to help you. 

Attempting to help me???????? More like attempting to make himself out to be something of importance at my expense, because of 1 post, "1," made 2 weeks earlier, about another player not "specifically" designated for that thread, as if there wasn't plenty of similar comments pertaining to how players would fit, or be used around Payne, who WAS the player of topic and how he will help our D-line, only to mention another player and how I believed he would be used with Payne??? Gotta love the site police, spending hours looking for the slightest possible infraction, or a misspelled word so they can play pretend police!!! :)

Yup, mentioning a Redskin player in a Redskin thread, HAH!!! 

I find it a personal insult to know someone is following my post's "just looking" for "anything" they can find wrong to make themselves feel important at my expense, as for others; many of us are here to discuss Redskins FOOTBALL, not police posters over infantile nonsense!!! 

Edited by THE HAMMER'IN HOG

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19 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

The main reason Allen's numbers from last year stuck out in my mind is because I was going back and forth with a poster on a NFL Draft forum who was adamant that Allen would only be a step above JAG at the next level due to his poor combine numbers.  That he wasn't explosive enough to be an impact player.  He compared him to other guys his size and at his position throughout history who put up similar combine numbers and were all busts.  He thought that was the main reason Allen slid in the draft, not the shoulder.  Even after the 5 games Allen played last year, the dude still holds that opinion.  He'll see how wrong he is this year when Allen plays a full season.

 

But the bottom line is that Allen isn't some athletic wonder, far from it in fact.  He wins mostly on superior skill (especially hand usage) and technique.  Which isn't a knock on him, it just kind of is what it is.

 

I think I was the only one in last year's draft thread who argued Allen was being overrated when he was being talked about as a top five pick.  I made that argument long before the combine and I was right.  He was a good, not great prospect, and he got picked where he belonged in the draft.

 

My two big concerns with Allen were that he was caught between positions/playstyles and that so much of his production (the biggest selling point for his draft stock) came from being single blocked, unblocked, or tight end blocked.  I thought he was undersized to be a traditional interior DL and too slow to be a dominant edge player.  And I thought he benefited from playing with guys like Tim Williams and Payne, more so than they benefited from playing with him.

 

As far as athletic traits go, he's got elite body control for his size and his play strength is awesome, but Allen was noticeably slow off the line.  And that is a red flag for me for projecting outside rushers.  It's why I don't think Allen can ever be a truly special edge rusher no matter how good his technique gets.  First step explosion is also the reason I was on the Payne bandwagon early because I knew he wouldn't be limited in that way.

 

But at the end of the day, Allen is a true finisher.  He is more than the sum of his parts because his play instincts are first rate.  It's the same as it is with Ryan Kerrigan.  Kerrigan isn't keeping DCs up at night, warping and breaking schemes.  He's not that kind of athlete at the position.  But By God, if the play is there for him to make, he's going to do it.

 

Payne is a potential scheme buster.  He's the one on that Bama defense that got accounted for in opposing offensive schemes.  If he can play the same role here, that will be such a boon for our defense.  People wonder why he didn't gap shoot and stunt and twist and play further from the ball in college more, if his effectiveness at doing so was demonstrated in the Georgia game.  And the truth is that Alabama's defense was better when he played the 0 and 1 and two-gapped the run and didn't stunt even though it hurt his individual numbers.  Everyone else benefits from him soaking up doubles and containing the middle of the line, and the defense becomes greater than the sum of its parts.  Linebackers get the really good opportunities to make plays on the ball.  And he sets the table for finishers like Kerrigan and Allen to eat.  You need Allens and Kerrigans and you need Paynes in order to fill the different roles necessary to play successful defense.

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