Israel shells 400 Palestinians, killing 15 during protest

[Bozo the kKklown]

 

 

Boy shot during prayer

 

Another kid shot by Israeli snipers

 

 

Some how this is Iran’s fault

[Llevron]

The world is messed up, man. 

[TradeTheBeal!]

Sweet religion!!!

[Renegade7]

There was a brief second where Obama was re-evaluating our relationship with Israel, then Trump snapped back.  We probably won't get that overdue conversation under this administration, but I think we're there now.

[Mr. Sinister]

1 minute ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Sweet religion!!!

 

I agree.

 

 What we need is for religion to go away. Then there will be no more evil, and dead children.

3 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

There was a brief second where Obama was re-evaluating our relationship with Israel, then Trump snapped back.  We probably won't get that overdue conversation under this administration, but I think we're there now.

 

I'm not sure there's any going back, with his recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital.

[Renegade7]

4 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

I'm not sure there's any going back, with his recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital.

Two-State solution is dead, only other logical option is to give the Palestinians the option for Isreali citizenship and for them to annex the rest of the West Bank and Gaza Strip.  An Independent West Bank nation wouldn't stand a chance economically anyway, especially without any effort to get Hezbollah out of there.

[Kilmer17]

That was a long time between incidents.  

 

Every president over the past 3 decades has called Jerusalem the capital.  Trump was just the one who moved the embassy.  Mostly just to give a middle finger to Muslims. 

[Bozo the kKklown]

19 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Sweet religion!!!

It’s not even religion at this point. Israel is an oppressive state.

[grego]

1 hour ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

It’s not even religion at this point. Israel is an oppressive state.

 

Who would you put as the top 5 oppressive countries? 

[Renegade7]

35 minutes ago, grego said:

 

Who would you put as the top 5 oppressive countries? 

Before I answer that, do you think Tibet should be their own country same as the West Bank?

[grego]

1 minute ago, Renegade7 said:

Before I answer that, do you think Tibet should be their own country same as the West Bank?

Not sure I know enough about Tibet to say, to be honest. 

[Riggo-toni]

2 hours ago, Kilmer17 said:

Every president over the past 3 decades has called Jerusalem the capital.  Trump was just the one who moved the embassy.  Mostly just to give a middle finger to Muslims. 

He did it to pander to Christian fundamentalists, hoping in particular it would help Roy Moore win.

What he was too ignorant to realize or comprehend was that his proclamation legitimized Iranian backed Hamas and deligitimized the beleaguered Fatah regime. It was a mindless counterproductive blunder, and one for which the self proclaimed "great negotiator" got nothing in return and unintentionally (but entirely predictably) strengthened a regime he relentlessly criticized Obama for being soft on.

 

Between this, sacrificing the Kurds in Kirkuk to Al Quds, and now withdrawing from Syria, Trump has done more to solidify and strengthen Iranian power in the Middle East than any president since the revolution.

[Bozo the kKklown]

59 minutes ago, grego said:

 

Who would you put as the top 5 oppressive countries? 

what is the point of this question? Israel is oppressing Palestinian people and murdering them in plain sight with zero consequences. Let us focus on that.

[Riggo-toni]

17 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Before I answer that, do you think Tibet should be their own country same as the West Bank?

When did Tibet ever call upon its neighbors to wipe out the Chinese and drive them into the sea?

Tibet I believe was an independent country prior to the Chinese takeover. Palestine went from centuries of Ottoman control to British mandate to  Israeli, Jordanian (West Bank) and Egyptian (Gaza) control.

 

[visionary]

 

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

[China]

Middle East Conflict Intensifies

[Berggy9598]

I was born in Israel, partially grew up there, still hold an Israeli passport, my late grandfather survived Auschwitz to fight in the 1948 war, (still the most remarkable person I've ever met) my dad was part of the army intelligence team for Operation Entebbe, my uncle was a decorated combat pilot and my cousin was in Sayeret Matkal (not sure what the U.S army equivalent would be. Navy Seals?) so this is kind of a touchy subject for me.

 

This is an awful story and the IDF has absolutely committed some pretty horrific human rights violations over the years. Some call the occupation an apartheid and lord knows there are merits to that argument. I'm not exactly sure how much sway Meretz holds over there but it can't be much. If you go person to person in my country you won't find that many people that look at Arabs as sub human or genuinely hates their existence, but at the same time believe Palestinians would see every Jew in Israel dead if they were to have their way. Will the fanatical component of the Palestinian population stop trying to attack Israeli civilians if there are two states and every settlement is cleared? Probably not. 

 

I can't imagine what it's like to live under an occupation because there is absolutely no way to put ourselves in their shoes unless we've lived what they lived, so while I love my country and could not be prouder of my origin, I have to accept that the IDF has committed some vile act. They are rarely if ever held accountable and most of those atrocities are committed by soldiers that are all around miserable human beings and wouldn't come anywhere near an elite unit. My cousin is an interesting case because he chose his military path in order to do things that are strictly part of the solution, but whether he did or didn't nobody but him and his fellow Sayeret soldiers and commanders will know. 

 

Sadly, this isn't going away unless the U.S finally decides to take actions that hold Israel accountable, so essentially this isn't going away. This is so deeply woven into society over there that I just fail to see where any kind of solution is coming from. 

[SkinsHokieFan]

Until the Israeli left can re-emerge (it died with Rahbin) this will continue. I am pretty numb to the situation

[Riggo-toni]

Sadly, Netanyahu is even further right than Sharon was.

A more coherent and intelligent foreign policy for the US might have been to more openly (and financially) support Abbas. Instead, we chopped him off at the knees with the Jerusalem announcement, and the divisions between Fatah and Hamas have been papered over, with the militant Iranian backed Hamas landing on top.

That said, the Palestinians current situation can be traced back to Arafat's call for the return to terrorism rather than accepting Ehud Barak's offer  for >90% of the West Bank plus parts of Israeli territory to compensate.

What most outsiders don't realize is that the vast majority of Palestinians do not live in Gaza or the West Bank - they are stuck in refugee camps in neighboring countries where they are refused integration so that they can be used as anti-Israeli pawns. Arafat was offered back the West Bank, Gaza, and even East Jerusalem (something even Rabin would never have done). If he had accepted, he likely would have been assassinated by diaspora Palestinian factions (see Michael Collins), but not accepting would have angered West Bank residents. 

So...he poisoned negotiations by instigating new terrorist attacks in order to trigger Israeli reprisals and crackdowns, which would in turn move Palestinian opinion against peace.

[zoony]

When is a religous state a good idea?  They always turn towards tyranny and opression.  Not sure why so many americans feel israel is somehow different.

 

 

[PeterMP]

1 hour ago, Riggo-toni said:

What most outsiders don't realize is that the vast majority of Palestinians do not live in Gaza or the West Bank - they are stuck in refugee camps in neighboring countries where they are refused integration so that they can be used as anti-Israeli pawns.

 

That said, the Palestinians current situation can be traced back to Arafat's call for the return to terrorism rather than accepting Ehud Barak's offer  for >90% of the West Bank plus parts of Israeli territory to compensate.

 

This isn't true;

 

"Initial reports, encouraged by U.S. officials and repeated in the media, indicated that Barak was willing to hand over a full 95 percent of the West Bank to the Palestinians. Yet Israel presented no maps to validate this claim. Since then, it has been learned that this percentage did not include greater East Jerusalem, which the Israelis consider part of Israel proper, though the United Nations and virtually the entire international community recognize it as part of the occupied territories. Nor did this include much of the Jordan Valley, the Dead Sea coast or parts of the Judean Desert, which Barak insisted on keeping under Israeli control for a supposedly temporary but indefinite period of time, allegedly for "security reasons." Taking these additional areas into account, this totaled only about 77 percent of the West Bank.

 

Barak also insisted on holding on to 69 Jewish settlements in the West Bank, where 85 percent of the settlers live. Barak, therefore, offered to evacuate only 15 percent of the settlers, when — according to U.N. Security Council resolutions 446 and 465, based on the Fourth Geneva Convention, which prohibits a country from transferring its civilian population into territory seized by military force — Israel is required to evacuate from all the settlements. These settlement blocs divided up Palestinian territory in such a way that a contiguous Palestinian state in the West Bank would be impossible. Under Barak's U.S.-backed plan, the West Bank would be split up by a series of settlement blocs, bypass roads and Israeli roadblocks"

 

http://www.mepc.org/united-states-and-breakdown-israeli-palestinian-peace-process

 

I don't think Israel has every offered something that would turn into a functional/independent state if it is well governed.

 

The other thing is that about 50% of Palestians today do live in what is historically Palestine (so many (about 50%) are refugees in other countries, but certainly not the vast majority)).  And easily, the largest number total are in the West Bank and Gaza.

[Riggo-toni]

The Ashkenazim who originally settled in Israel were predominantly secular.  Rights of return are based on race; there is no compulsion for religosity, so to toss Israel in with theocratic governments like Saudi Arabia or Iran is wrong.

The most religious faction/party in Israeli politics, Shas, is actually opposed to its own Jewish state, whose establishment it considers blasphemous because it was formed before the coming of the messiah...and as such they often vote along the same lines as Arab Israelis.

 

It is estimated that more than 6 million Palestinians live in a global diaspora.[12]

The countries outside the Palestinian territories with significant Palestinian populations are:

Jordan 3,240,000

Israel 1,650,000

Syria 630,000

Chile 500,000 (largest Palestinian community outside the Middle East).

Lebanon 402,582

Saudi Arabia 280,245

Egypt 270,245

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_diaspora

[The Sisko]

 

On 4/1/2018 at 12:43 PM, Riggo-toni said:

He did it to pander to Christian fundamentalists, hoping in particular it would help Roy Moore win.

What he was too ignorant to realize or comprehend was that his proclamation legitimized Iranian backed Hamas and deligitimized the beleaguered Fatah regime. It was a mindless counterproductive blunder, and one for which the self proclaimed "great negotiator" got nothing in return and unintentionally (but entirely predictably) strengthened a regime he relentlessly criticized Obama for being soft on.

 

Between this, sacrificing the Kurds in Kirkuk to Al Quds, and now withdrawing from Syria, Trump has done more to solidify and strengthen Iranian power in the Middle East than any president since the revolution.

But, but Hillary and Obama started ISIS!

[Berggy9598]

1 hour ago, Riggo-toni said:

The Ashkenazim who originally settled in Israel were predominantly secular.  Rights of return are based on race; there is no compulsion for religosity, so to toss Israel in with theocratic governments like Saudi Arabia or Iran is wrong.

The most religious faction/party in Israeli politics, Shas, is actually opposed to its own Jewish state, whose establishment it considers blasphemous because it was formed before the coming of the messiah...and as such they often vote along the same lines as Arab Israelis.

 

It is estimated that more than 6 million Palestinians live in a global diaspora.[12]

The countries outside the Palestinian territories with significant Palestinian populations are:

Jordan 3,240,000

Israel 1,650,000

Syria 630,000

Chile 500,000 (largest Palestinian community outside the Middle East).

Lebanon 402,582

Saudi Arabia 280,245

Egypt 270,245

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_diaspora

The Orthodox parties still have a ton of power in Kneset. Israel may not be a theocracy in the traditional sense but the settlers in particular do use "religiosity" as a claim to the land they're on. Judaism absolutely plays a part in Israeli laws too. The last time I was there I heard someone belly aching about some kind of law pertaining to working on the Sabbath. Also if you happen to be there on yom Kippur good luck watching TV.