Israel shells 400 Palestinians, killing 15 during protest

[Riggo-toni]

I realize Jewish heritage, along with the fear of persecution for being Jewish when living elsewhere, make up the glue that holds Israel together and broadly defines its national character.

But I flatly reject Zoony's insinuations/assumptions that this makes it a theocracy along the same lines as Saudi Arabia or Iran.  Hell, religious beliefs permeating into politics is probably even more pervasive in the US, and as in Israel, its influence is probably disproportionately outsized vis a vis the number of its adherents, and many insist (inaccurately) that the US was founded on Christianity.

[visionary]

 

[Renegade7]

On 4/1/2018 at 12:54 PM, Riggo-toni said:

When did Tibet ever call upon its neighbors to wipe out the Chinese and drive them into the sea?

Tibet I believe was an independent country prior to the Chinese takeover. Palestine went from centuries of Ottoman control to British mandate to  Israeli, Jordanian (West Bank) and Egyptian (Gaza) control.

 

That makes sense, but I asked that because that's the first thing that came to mind, not that I thought they were synonymous (I didn't know enough about Tibet either to really comment, but I'm glad you did).  

 

If anything they have in common, the chances of either being independent are slim to none in our lifetime, I don't think you could sanction either Israel or China into doing it (at least it would go terribly and be incredibly unpopular pretty much everywhere).  My idea of "oppressive state" has to factor in what a country is doing to another, especially if they are occupying them.  Is Israel top 5?  Benningroad is right, it shouldn't matter, they are on the list and moving up it.  

 

China is on top for me because while NK is shooting rockets for attention while they treat most of their people like total crap, China is taking people's islands and turning them into military bases while consolidating power, making democracy further from reality there and intimidating the entire region.

[Riggo-toni]

Ultimately Israel has to decide which is more important- geography or demography. They cannot integrate millions of Palestinians and still remain a democratic Jewish state.

 

If you want a better comparison than China and Tibet, let me provide you with one: The Kurds, and any of the 4 countries in which they have major populations. For purposes of this discussion, let's start with Turkey, which purports to be a Democracy, and whose egregious actions cannot be excused by civil war or regime change.

 

Unlike the Palestinians, who are ethnically, linguistically and culturally indistinguishable from Syrians or the majority of Jordanians, Kurds are ethnically distinct and have their own languages. They are the largest ethnic group in the world to not have their own country.

 

For decades, it was illegal to have any signs or displays in Kurdish in Turkey. Turkey threw people in jail simply for writing in their own language.

 

After it was discovered Hamas was rewarding the families of suicide bombers with money (often raised by Saudi telethons - seriously), Israel announced it would bulldoze the house of any suicide bomber's family to disincentivize a rash of bus bombings. In Turkey, when any attack/threat is blamed on Kurdish separatists, the army will bulldoze/ burn/slaughter entire villages, and make sweeping arrests.

 

[DogofWar1]

I'd love to see a two-state solution where the new Palestine has access to the Mediterranean and also see Jerusalem become similar to the Vatican, essentially an independent city-state, administered by all three religions that it is hugely important for.  If that could somehow happen, I think we'd see a lot of positive movement.  Jerusalem is always going to be a flashpoint, if not in actual fighting then certainly in rhetoric.  That and if you manage to give them access to the Mediterranean they economically might be able to avoid being as dependent on states like Iran.

 

The bad news is, 1) that proposal for Jerusalem is likely a non-starter, but also 2) there's basically no way to carve things up in a decent way, unless you split Israel into two pieces separated by Palestine, which is obviously likely a non-starter too.  Best I can think is that Israel gets the West Bank, and a large chunk of Israel, starting with the Gaza Strip and then south of Be'er Sheva becomes Palestine, with perhaps a splitting of the land at the south tip so that Eilat stays in Israel but Palestine has access to the Gulf of Aqaba.

 

Of course, this is me just looking at a map and trying to carve things up to reach a set of vague set of goals which may or may not be served by this carving up, with full understanding that politically it's likely a total non-starter in Israel, and maybe even in Palestinian circles, seeing as they lose the entire West Bank.  The thing is, I don't see how we get an internationally functioning Palestine without some decent waterway access.  Ports are hugely important.

[Kilmer17]

At this point, there is absolutely no reason for Israel to change the way they are doing anything.  

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

[AsburySkinsFan]

Eye for an eye?

You can shove your self righteous “God’s people” bull**** when they do this. You don’t get to use God as a prop and then violate his law and claim that you are holy.

If the guy is found guilty and you want your temporal vengeance then whatever, but the eye for an eye was a LIMITATION on the retribution that could be taken.

I’m so sick of god being used as a ****ing mascot for whatever terrible thing people want to do. 

And yeah, that goes for the Palestinian if he was guilty too.