2018 Free Agency Database - (Signed: WILLIAMS - McPhee - Scandrick - P-Rich) - (Lauvao, Bergstrom, Nsehke, Taylor, Z. Brown and Quick re-signed)

[skinny21]

@Voice_of_Reason

There’s too much nuance for me to really get into it - there’s pre-draft FA vs post-draft, there’s the desire to not spend up to the cap so we can re-sign our FAs in the near future, the idea that holding onto money early in FA lead to Jackson and then Norman, there’s the fact that Gruden is on his 3rd DC (your coaching issue), the fact that last year was not an outlier in terms of injuries, etc, etc.  

 

 

So anyway, specific to the talent issue... pre-draft, I wanted DL, RB, WR, LG and slot corner.  We also needed an ILB.  The team had already ‘solved’ our qb issue.  They also had some intriguing, but unproven guys slated to start - Moreau, Nicholson, Doctson and Roullier.  

 

They wound up majorly addressing DL and RB.  They added a decent receiver - the other FA receivers (also) had some question marks and were more expensive - they re-signed Brown.  So that leaves slot corner and LG.  Norwell was probably the only G worth his salt, and he got paid a ton of money.  Pretty questionable to pay so much for a LG.  Mathieu was the one slot guy I really wanted... didn’t work out.  That’s my take.  

 

So, I guess my question to you is - who were the big difference makers they should have signed?  

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

On 9/2/2018 at 9:47 AM, skinny21 said:

@Voice_of_Reason

There’s too much nuance for me to really get into it - there’s pre-draft FA vs post-draft, there’s the desire to not spend up to the cap so we can re-sign our FAs in the near future, the idea that holding onto money early in FA lead to Jackson and then Norman, there’s the fact that Gruden is on his 3rd DC (your coaching issue), the fact that last year was not an outlier in terms of injuries, etc, etc.  

 

 

So anyway, specific to the talent issue... pre-draft, I wanted DL, RB, WR, LG and slot corner.  We also needed an ILB.  The team had already ‘solved’ our qb issue.  They also had some intriguing, but unproven guys slated to start - Moreau, Nicholson, Doctson and Roullier.  

 

They wound up majorly addressing DL and RB.  They added a decent receiver - the other FA receivers (also) had some question marks and were more expensive - they re-signed Brown.  So that leaves slot corner and LG.  Norwell was probably the only G worth his salt, and he got paid a ton of money.  Pretty questionable to pay so much for a LG.  Mathieu was the one slot guy I really wanted... didn’t work out.  That’s my take.  

 

So, I guess my question to you is - who were the big difference makers they should have signed?  

 

The point is well taken.

 

However, I'm also going to say this: if last year wasn't an outlier on the injury front, (and I think it was as far as one position group getting more decimated than I've seen recently), then you can't go into the next year thinking the same guys who can't stay healthy are going to stay healthy.

 

Also, the need to win now is accelerated by the fact they traded for a 34 year old QB, gave up a 3rd rounder and a VERY promising DB to get him.  You don't have 3-4 years to build a team.  You've got to go "all in" in the next 2 years, because after that you're probably looking for your next QB. 

 

I really don't have a ton of desire to go back through all of the top-flight FAs, but I would have over-spent for a few top guys, given up on one of Kelley/Perine early in the off-season to bring in an established starter (and then still drafted a guy high), and I would have probably signed 2 WRs who could play, because counting on Doctson to produce at a high level is betting against history.  

 

I would also have made finding a LG a priority, and not essentially been lazy about it and brought back Luavao. 

 

And finally, I probably would have done something at TE.  Which might have meant trading Reed.  The reason is that Reed is a great receiver when he's on the field, however that's rare.  And when he is, he's a complete liability in the run-game.  Davis isn't a great blocker, and Sprinkle is a good blocker but limited in the pass game.  One of the really large reason the run game has struggled for years is Reed can't set the damn edge.  Ever.  And Davis isn't much better.  So, if you really want to improve, and not just tread water, you have to do something to change things up.

 

Because when I look at this roster, what I see is a lot of the same issues that we've had for years, and we're pinning all of our hopes on:

 

1. Reed/CT staying healthy

2. Doctson producing like a #1 receiver AND staying healthy

3. Payne/Allen producing like studs, and Allen staying healthy

4. About 4 guys stepping up to roles and excelling in roles they haven't had before, and in at least one case (Nicholson) staying healthy.

5. The OL to stay somewhat healthy,while Trent and Moses are both coming off of surgeries and haven't been healthy recently, Lauvao hasn't been healthy in years. 

 

I mean, it all could happen, but it's unlikely.  What's more likely is the guys who always get hurt will get hurt, Docston will be "ok," there will be more injuries on the OL than you would think, and the team will finish 8-8.  Again.

 

And the 'Skins will have essentially wasted a season trying to have a do-over minus injuries of the 2017 season. 

 

I'd love to be wrong.  I'd also love to be wrong on Gruden being a below average head coach.  We'll see. 

 

As I said, I like the way the team is going in terms of drafting.  But the position they put themselves in, I think having one "B" rated FA, one "C" rated FA, and one out of necessity is a little light on outside additions to elevate the team. 

On 9/2/2018 at 9:34 AM, carex said:

 

an injured player is a player who may as well not be on the team.  For the past three years we've suffered some of the worst stats for games lost.  We were last in 2017, and in searching I found an article from 2016 about how that year's team fared injury wise, that also mentioned we were 31st in AGL in 2015.

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/washington-redskins/numbers-say-2016-redskins-were-among-teams-hit-hardest-injuries

 

Your three years checking coincide with a terrible history for the health of Redskin players

And then so that begs the question, why are we lining up with essentially the same team hoping for better results?  Isn't that the definition of insanity?  Like, literally? 

On 9/2/2018 at 9:08 AM, CTskin said:

The last two seasons we were 31st and 32nd respectively. The year before was also bad, I believe we were in the high twenties. Your 3-year sample size is tainted.

See above.

[carex]

58 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

The point is well taken.

 

However, I'm also going to say this: if last year wasn't an outlier on the injury front, (and I think it was as far as one position group getting more decimated than I've seen recently), then you can't go into the next year thinking the same guys who can't stay healthy are going to stay healthy.

 

Also, the need to win now is accelerated by the fact they traded for a 34 year old QB, gave up a 3rd rounder and a VERY promising DB to get him.  You don't have 3-4 years to build a team.  You've got to go "all in" in the next 2 years, because after that you're probably looking for your next QB. 

 

I really don't have a ton of desire to go back through all of the top-flight FAs, but I would have over-spent for a few top guys, given up on one of Kelley/Perine early in the off-season to bring in an established starter (and then still drafted a guy high), and I would have probably signed 2 WRs who could play, because counting on Doctson to produce at a high level is betting against history.  

 

I would also have made finding a LG a priority, and not essentially been lazy about it and brought back Luavao. 

 

And finally, I probably would have done something at TE.  Which might have meant trading Reed.  The reason is that Reed is a great receiver when he's on the field, however that's rare.  And when he is, he's a complete liability in the run-game.  Davis isn't a great blocker, and Sprinkle is a good blocker but limited in the pass game.  One of the really large reason the run game has struggled for years is Reed can't set the damn edge.  Ever.  And Davis isn't much better.  So, if you really want to improve, and not just tread water, you have to do something to change things up.

 

Because when I look at this roster, what I see is a lot of the same issues that we've had for years, and we're pinning all of our hopes on:

 

1. Reed/CT staying healthy

2. Doctson producing like a #1 receiver AND staying healthy

3. Payne/Allen producing like studs, and Allen staying healthy

4. About 4 guys stepping up to roles and excelling in roles they haven't had before, and in at least one case (Nicholson) staying healthy.

5. The OL to stay somewhat healthy,while Trent and Moses are both coming off of surgeries and haven't been healthy recently, Lauvao hasn't been healthy in years. 

 

I mean, it all could happen, but it's unlikely.  What's more likely is the guys who always get hurt will get hurt, Docston will be "ok," there will be more injuries on the OL than you would think, and the team will finish 8-8.  Again.

 

And the 'Skins will have essentially wasted a season trying to have a do-over minus injuries of the 2017 season. 

 

I'd love to be wrong.  I'd also love to be wrong on Gruden being a below average head coach.  We'll see. 

 

As I said, I like the way the team is going in terms of drafting.  But the position they put themselves in, I think having one "B" rated FA, one "C" rated FA, and one out of necessity is a little light on outside additions to elevate the team. 

And then so that begs the question, why are we lining up with essentially the same team hoping for better results?  Isn't that the definition of insanity?  Like, literally? 

 

 

The NFL may not have contracts as guaranteed as some sports but to attempt to cut loose everyone who was injured and fill those spots plus fill the weak spots already there would have been impossible and put them in salary cap hell.  They'd have needed to replace 3/5ths of the OL(4/5ths if you acknowledge how hard it is to play a full season on injuries like Moses did and how hard it would be to repeat it.  Plus some backups.  A starting RB, a 3rd down Rub.  Two or three WR.  A DE and NT, two ILB and a FS

 

Stop expecting so damn much.  Now if you actually look at the team, Josh Doctson and Rob Kelley have been here two seasons and only had injuries half that time.  To soon to say "always get hurt."  Same for Allen and Roullier and Nicholson who have one year  Chris Thompson had put the injury bug behind him till the broken leg.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Washington_Redskins_season

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Washington_Redskins_season

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Washington_Redskins_season

 

each of these season recaps includes our final roster of the season, including injured lists.  The overlap is minimal

 

 

 

Reed and Lauvao are probably the only two guys who've been here long term and been repeatedly injured

[skinny21]

@Voice_of_Reason Oh, don’t get me wrong, I’m with you... and it concerns the hell outta me.  Essentially, I’d say I have an angel and devil on my shoulders - your view vs @carex‘s view, and I waffle back and forth.  The truth is we’re probably in the middle somewhere... which probably isn’t great for us.  

 

 

Sorry for implicitly calling you a devil, lol

[Voice_of_Reason]

58 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

@Voice_of_Reason Oh, don’t get me wrong, I’m with you... and it concerns the hell outta me.  Essentially, I’d say I have an angel and devil on my shoulders - your view vs @carex‘s view, and I waffle back and forth.  The truth is we’re probably in the middle somewhere... which probably isn’t great for us.  

 

 

Sorry for implicitly calling you a devil, lol

What concerns me is that it seems that we are just stuck in neutral, with an average roster and an average coach, and we're going to perpetually end up at 8-8.

 

However, I'm not advocating blowing everything up, gassing up Redskins 1, and bringing in every high-priced over-the-hill FA. I just think that if you keep doing the same thing over and over, you're going to get similar results.

 

@carex Doctson missed his entire rookie season and started out with an injury last year.  Trent Williams is a beast and fights through anything, but he's always hurt.  Same with Moses.  Lauvao has been hurt every season he's been here.  Reed is always hurt and coming back from 2 foot surgeries, and hasn't played yet.  CT has been hurt a bunch, and while I agree that the broken leg is somewhat random, he still hasn't fully recovered, and you are more susceptible to injury once you've been injured.  Especially if he favors one side to protect the other, you are almost screaming for a pulled hammy or something. Not to mention both Perine and Kelley both getting hurt.

 

On defense, Allen came in with questions about his durability, which is why he dropped to us, and he missed the last 10 games of the season.  Foster has been out of the lineup at different times.  Nicholson has been here one year and couldn't stay on the field. 

 

I'm not really concerned with what happened in 2015 or 2016 in terms of who was injured.  What I am concerned with is the players we are expecting to be contributors this year have had a history of being unavailable, and a lot of them are coming off of surgeries.

 

Let me put it this way, if this season goes south because the offense can't get out of neutral due to Trent, Moses, Reed, CT, Kelley, Perine and Doctson are all hurt, then I'm going to have exactly zero sympathy for the team or FO, and personally I'll refuse to accept injuries as anything near an excuse for losses. Because if you were betting on each of those players individually to miss significant time vs. play all 16 games, the "miss significant time" would be the favorite in probably every case except Trent and Moses.  

[carex]

the concerns about Allen's durabilty were about an arm problem, he went out to a foot injury

 

and replacing them all in an offseason was not possible.  We are stuck in neutral, but cutting ties with these guys is throwing it in reverse

[skinny21]

@Voice_of_Reason I’ve sided with SIP about Bruce and his quantity over quality Free Agency trend.  I think we missed the boat signing the Macs as opposed to one high level DL.  

 

I would defend drafting Allen because when you’re consistently picking in the midddle of the round, you sometimes need to take risks.  To your point though, you likely need to be aggressive in FA to make up that difference.  

 

Regarding the injuries, I think the best you can do is sign/draft guys to eventually supplant those guys.  Hard to say if we’ve made much progress on this front (or made it a priority), but we did draft Christian, Sprinkle, Guice, Quinn, signed Vernon Davis, Marshall (and Bibbs), Richardson, etc.  So they seem to be spending the highest capital on their weakest areas and part of the rest of that capital on adding depth/replacements for our current guys. Can’t tell if they’re focused on replacing the injury concerns specifically though.  

 

Edit:  One other thing.  Regarding the injuries last year, I felt we had a deep roster, but we happened to lose both starters and depth in certain spots, as well as losing starters at areas without ideal depth.  Losing Nsheke and then Williams and Moses playing hurt.  Losing Foster, Brown, and Spaight.  Losing Nicholson, Allen/Ioannidis and CT (no real depth behind them).  

 

That only speaks to last last year though of course.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

Just now, carex said:

the concerns about Allen's durabilty were about an arm problem, he went out to a foot injury

 

and replacing them all in an offseason was not possible.  We are stuck in neutral, but cutting ties with these guys is throwing it in reverse

I never said you had to cut ties with all of them.  I said you want to have a better plan at WR by signing 2 guys who can play, and you need to be aggressive at LG, and do something at TE. I also think they should have cut ties with Kelley, who's a JAG's JAG, and signed a vet earlier in the off-season.  Hell, I would have been happy if they signed AP then drafted Guice.  On defense, I think they needed to sign a starting DB to a short term deal as an insurance policy to the young guys, and Scandrick was the wrong guy.  

 

As much as I like Mo Harris, Sims and Mr. Irrelevant, if Doctson doesn't develop or either he or Richardson gets hurt, the cupboard is very bare.

 

The TE situation is bad because Reed/Davis both are liabilities in the run game, and Reed has a history of unavailability. 

 

They could have done all of these things without jeopardizing the growth of the youth movement or breaking the bank.  They chose not to, and it's more likely than not that choice is going to end up costing all of them their jobs. 

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

@Voice_of_Reason I’ve sided with SIP about Bruce and his quantity over quality Free Agency trend.  I think we missed the boat signing the Macs as opposed to one high level DL.  

 

I would defend drafting Allen because when you’re consistently picking in the midddle of the round, you sometimes need to take risks.  To your point though, you likely need to be aggressive in FA to make up that difference.  

 

Regarding the injuries, I think the best you can do is sign/draft guys to eventually supplant those guys.  Hard to say if we’ve made much progress on this front (or made it a priority), but we did draft Christian, Sprinkle, Guice, Quinn, signed Vernon Davis, Marshall (and Bibbs), Richardson, etc.  So they seem to be spending the highest capital on their weakest areas and part of the rest of that capital on adding depth/replacements for our current guys. Can’t tell if they’re focused on replacing the injury concerns specifically though.  

I've also sided with @Skinsinparadise on quantity vs. quality, and always shopping for bargains.  It's stupid.

 

I think the Allen pick was fine. And I understand that he dropped because of concerns of an upper body injury, and he had a leg problem.  In my experience, if you have a guy with injury concerns, and they get hurt, that can start a pattern, and that's not good. Nobody could forsee him getting hurt last year.  However, now that he has, you have to really pay attention to his availability and see if that was just a one time thing or a trend. 

 

As far as the replacements: Christian isn't ready to play, Sprinkle was drafted as a blocking specialist, which doesn't solve the "starter is hurt and can't block" issue, Davis can't really block, Marshall and Bibbs were both signed last year when the team was short of RBs because everybody else was hurt, and Richardson was signed to add a deep threat which is missing.

 

They just haven't been near aggressive enough in recent years in adding impact players during FA, and this is one of the reasons we're stuck in neutral with a lot of "good" players, but not enough players who can put you over the top to go along with them.

 

The hope is that Allen and Payne develop into those guys on defense.  On offense, there's no real hope of having a guy develop into that.  Everybody is who they kindof are are this point, unless Docston just catches fire...

 

10 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Edit:  One other thing.  Regarding the injuries last year, I felt we had a deep roster, but we happened to lose both starters and depth in certain spots, as well as losing starters at areas without ideal depth.  Losing Nsheke and then Williams and Moses playing hurt.  Losing Foster, Brown, and Spaight.  Losing Nicholson, Allen/Ioannidis and CT (no real depth behind them).  

 

That only speaks to last last year though of course.

I don't disagree with this at all.  The problem is that we're counting on almost all of those guys who are recovering from injury to recover, excel and stay healthy.  Which is REALLY risky. 

 

I think Bruce/Jay have put their jobs on the table with that decision.  If they're right, they'll look real smart.  If they're not, they will probably both be joining Jon in Oakland/Vegas until he's fired. 

[dyst]

Great points guys, on both fronts. I am trying to stay positive but it’s slowly fading as we get closer to game time. 

 

We already lost a piece for the season and some of our injured guys from last year didn’t do much in the off season or still aren’t better yet.

 

I think we will know by week 2 what type of team we have. Not simply on whether they win or lose but by how they play during those games.

[HardcoreZorn]

 

8 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

1. Reed/CT staying healthy

2. Doctson producing like a #1 receiver AND staying healthy

3. Payne/Allen producing like studs, and Allen staying healthy

4. About 4 guys stepping up to roles and excelling in roles they haven't had before, and in at least one case (Nicholson) staying healthy.

5. The OL to stay somewhat healthy,while Trent and Moses are both coming off of surgeries and haven't been healthy recently, Lauvao hasn't been healthy in years. 

 

I mean, it all could happen, but it's unlikely.  What's more likely is the guys who always get hurt will get hurt, Docston will be "ok," there will be more injuries on the OL than you would think, and the team will finish 8-8.  Again.

 

If all of those things happen we will be legitimate SB contenders. I agree unlikely, but there's hope to still be a very good team this year even if all of those things don't break our way.

 

A few things. You say you don't care about 2016 and 2017 when it comes to predicting this year, yet you are acting as if guys like Doctson, Allen, Nicholson, etc. are always injured. Not the case, at least not yet. Also, it kind of bothers me how some are writing Doc off so soon. He went from a lost rookie year to 500 and 6 TD's or so. I'd call that a substantial leap. He also went up for some balls unlike any Redskins receiver I've seen in my lifetime. Let's see what he has in store this year before saying it's likely he'll be "just ok." Also, Allen fell for shoulder concerns, completely unrelated to last years injury.

 

We are going to suffer some injuries this year. Already have with Guice. But so will every other team, and frankly I'd be absolutely shocked if we come close to the level of injuries from last year. It was simply unprecedented. So staying even healthy relative to last year would be a boost to the win column, no? Which puts us firmly in the mix for the playoffs.

 

And fun fact for you. Jay Gruden has never finished 8-8 as Redskins head coach.

 

 

[skinny21]

@Voice_of_Reason

So you wanted two starting level receivers, a starting TE, a starting back, a third down back (I think?), a starting slot corner and a starting LG.  I believe you also wanted a starting NT and DT, right?  I’m also guessing you’d have wanted a starting caliber FS due to Nicholson’s injuries.  Of course, we needed a starting qb too.  Maybe it’s just me, but that seems like a lot.

 

On the flip side, I really wish they had been able to adequately address the LG spot.  Now, with that said, we shored up the run D, we have some passing weapons (and more potential there), finally have a FS, and we added to the run game (Guice and then AP, plus Sprinkle developing and getting Roullier into the lineup) and again have a solid qb.  So I see improvement over the years.  Time will tell how much of a difference it makes.  

[Conn]

You guys hear/read Galette's interview with Dukes? I've never seen more honest answers. I'm still not sure McPhee is better to have given our lack of a speed rush. 

 

Junior Galette to @chaddukes: "My agent and I thought we could get a lot more money on the open market, which I basically regret right now, because I should be in someone's facility right now. It was clearly a bad call."

 

Asked about being in talks with the Redskins in August, Galette says he contacted Gruden directly: "That's literally me reaching out to Jay and telling him, like, 'Hey. You know, things didn't really work out. I wish I'd taken the deal that was on the table.'" 

 

"The last reply I got from [Jay Gruden] was, 'We've got five outside linebackers right now. We're gonna give you a call if something happens.' And I just said, 'Okay. Let's stay in touch. Keep grinding.'

[tmandoug1]

Anyone seen Hanky Panky????

[Hailmary70]

I wish the Redskins would've looked at Xavier Su'a-Filo! We need a Guard

[Malapropismic Depository]

3 hours ago, tmandoug1 said:

Anyone seen Hanky Panky????

 

Chargers and Browns

 

 

[OVCChairman]

Is that his 3rd meeting with the Browns? 

[Est.1974]

I was all over Hankins, but to be fair I love how we've gone with our DL group. Brantley adds to an excellent young crop of players overall. 

[tmandoug1]

Pretty sure Hanky is experiencing the very definition of Karma......

[REDSKINS JR]

Why aren't we signing  Junior....

[“Misdirection”]

Think we might sign Gallette week 2 once the contracts aren’t guaranteed. He wants back, we thought he was good enough for 2/10, he’ll take vet min, we signed a scrub for 1 week to take that spot. 

 

He’s better than anyone else we can add not named Hankins 

[OVCChairman]

1 minute ago, REDSKINS JR said:

Why aren't we signing  Junior....

 

 

(Stealing this from a local beat guy, I believe it was Hoffman)

 

There's a possibility that we're waiting until week 2 to sign him, because at that point his contract is not fully guaranteed.  He's a 'vested veteran' and signing him then instead of now could be a financial decision.  

[bedlamVR]

4 hours ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

Chargers and Browns

 

 

 

By soob is he talking about the next couple of years or so ?

[Malapropismic Depository]

51 minutes ago, bedlamVR said:

 

By soob is he talking about the next couple of years or so ?

 

depends how many Training Camps he's trying to avoid.

[Malapropismic Depository]

Adorable, this is.

2 ex-Redskins consoling each other on their unsuccessful free agent bids