DC9

2018 Free Agency Database - (Signed: WILLIAMS - McPhee - Scandrick - P-Rich) - (Lauvao, Bergstrom, Nsehke, Taylor, Z. Brown and Quick re-signed)

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1 hour ago, rumplestilskin said:

I hope not. He is done.   I hered somewhere the falcons might trade or release Tevin Coleman. I think he would be a better vet option.

Why in God's name would they release a highly productive player who costs almost nothing? Trade, maybe. But it aint gonna be for a 7th round pic or something. They'll get value for him.

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3 hours ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

Why in God's name would they release a highly productive player who costs almost nothing? Trade, maybe. But it aint gonna be for a 7th round pic or something. They'll get value for him.

I'm not sure why they would release him. I can't even recall the source but I remember reading  that the falcons are expected to move on from him.  Sure they will want value for him but how much will they get when the intent is for him to be gone by next year when his rook deal is done.  A wild guess would be a 4th rounder. I would take him for that and scream start the car!.

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7 hours ago, rumplestilskin said:

I hope not. He is done.   I hered somewhere the falcons might trade or release Tevin Coleman. I think he would be a better vet option.

 

I hope we go after McKinnon from the Vikings. Dude is a beast and eager to make his mark in the league.

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2 hours ago, rumplestilskin said:

I'm not sure why they would release him. I can't even recall the source but I remember reading  that the falcons are expected to move on from him.  Sure they will want value for him but how much will they get when the intent is for him to be gone by next year when his rook deal is done.  A wild guess would be a 4th rounder. I would take him for that and scream start the car!.

I don't see a Super Bowl contender weakening themselves like that for a 4th round draft choice. That's close enough to nothing that they would be better off going for it for one year and then seeing if they get a comp pick.

 

BTW, it's feels just a tad silly for you to name the price you think he'd go for and then celebrate what a cheap price it is.

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Silly, no. It would be my reaction to getting a player for a mid round pick that has second round value. Read the article below as I am not alone on the value assessment vs what you would get for him.  If they wait for the compensatory pick they might get back a better pick but it's not a guarantee. It is a reach though.

 

 

 

https://bloggingdirty.com/2017/09/21/atlanta-falcons-tevin-coleman-trade-bait/

Edited by rumplestilskin

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On 1/28/2018 at 7:37 AM, markmills67 said:

Beau Allen the Eagle's NT could be an under the radar signing for us. $3/4m a year sounds good if you don't resign Hood, it's only a couple of million more cap for a younger and more hungrier player. I would also draft Vita Vea in 1st round as well unless we don't re-sign Cousin's then it might be QB.

 

HTTR 

 

 

 

I think Cousins is gone but that's also a LOT of money in the line.

 

Allen, the Greek, Lanier are three deep in a four man rotation that is likely going to see the nickel 60 plus percent of the time?

 

And you want to add two to that including the top pick?

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15 minutes ago, DC9 said:

 

I think Cousins is gone but that's also a LOT of money in the line.

 

Allen, the Greek, Lanier are three deep in a four man rotation that is likely going to see the nickel 60 plus percent of the time?

 

And you want to add two to that including the top pick?

Well, we could certainly use a capable NT, but I agree with your point that 2 pure NTs is a bit much.  With that said, I would guess the fact some scouts believe Vea could play DE or NT offers some flexibility there.  Maybe he starts in our base and once he's comfortable he can start getting work at DT.  

 

Also, I'm seeing Allen listed as a DT, so maybe he provides an upgrade as a NT and rotational value as a DT.  Sounds pretty good to me.  

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1 minute ago, skinny21 said:

Well, we could certainly use a capable NT, but I agree with your point that 2 pure NTs is a bit much.  With that said, I would guess the fact some scouts believe Vea could play DE or NT offers some flexibility there.  Maybe he starts in our base and once he's comfortable he can start getting work at DT.  

 

Also, I'm seeing Allen listed as a DT, so maybe he provides an upgrade as a NT and rotational value as a DT.  Sounds pretty good to me.  

 

Our "Base" is now the nickel.  We were in nickel over 60% of the time last season.  That's why I am saying that you essentially need one more big man to rotate in there with Allen, Ioanaiddis and Lanier.  Sure you need more depth for the 3-4 but not at the expense of other positions in my opinions. 

 

You have three dudes that pushed the pocket as well as we've seen in over a decade from the inside - spend that early pick elsewhere is all I'm saying.

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31 minutes ago, DC9 said:

 

Our "Base" is now the nickel.  We were in nickel over 60% of the time last season.  That's why I am saying that you essentially need one more big man to rotate in there with Allen, Ioanaiddis and Lanier.  Sure you need more depth for the 3-4 but not at the expense of other positions in my opinions. 

 

You have three dudes that pushed the pocket as well as we've seen in over a decade from the inside - spend that early pick elsewhere is all I'm saying.

Yes, it's probably more accurate to consider nickel our base D - we've run far more nickel D than anything else for a number of years.  Even so, we need a starting caliber NT, possibly a starting DE (or at least a competent rotational guy there) as well as a rotational DT.  I think Allen and Vea address all 3 of those - at least theoretically, I'm going purely on what I've read.  

 

I really like what I've seen from Lanier (at least as a pass rusher), and I expect McGee to be a decent player for us, but neither one is a sure fire starting caliber player.  

 

McGee - Allen - Vea start in our 3-4, Smith - Allen - Ioannidas - Kerrigan start in nickel.  Allen backs up the DTs and Lanier is used as a situational rusher.  

 

Or maybe Vea is at NT and Allen and/or Ioannidas also play DE.  Allen gives them breathers as the 3rd DT.  

 

Point being, you seriously beef up the line (in both the 3-4 and nickel), don't spend much in FA, and add a bunch of versatility, as well as depth (so we aren't hamstrung as when Allen went down).  Like I said, sounds pretty good to me.  

 

With that said, 1) were we to add Allen, maybe we instead go ILB or G in the 1st (or qb... ugh) and 2) haven't heard we like Vea, as opposed to our apparent interest in Payne.  

Edited by skinny21

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So everything is on hold until kirk situation is sorted out, it feels like

 

Wjich if it is, i hope that drags on until all the high priced free agents are gone.  If kirk leaves the worst thing that can happen is a spending spree in free agency to lead us to the glory of an 8 and 8 finish.  We need to take our medicine and rebuild for freaking once.

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54 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

McGee - Allen - Vea start in our 3-4, Smith - Allen - Ioannidas - Kerrigan start in nickel.  Allen backs up the DTs and Lanier is used as a situational rusher.  

 

 

I would be thrilled with anything for the middle of the defense - be that DL, ILB, or S.  I would.

 

But with the 13th pick in the draft I just don't see drafting a dude who is going to bench a player who you are getting for a steal with 6th round wages in the Greek right now.  That's just not smart.

 

Spend that impact on another part of the defense.  Especially when only two of those guys are going to be on the field for almost 7 out of 10 plays and you have 3 that can do it.

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41 minutes ago, zoony said:

So everything is on hold until kirk situation is sorted out, it feels like

 

Wjich if it is, i hope that drags on until all the high priced free agents are gone.  If kirk leaves the worst thing that can happen is a spending spree in free agency to lead us to the glory of an 8 and 8 finish.  We need to take our medicine and rebuild for freaking once.

 

I don't really feel that way at all.  There are reports out from the senior bowl that he's pegged for Denver.  The only question is are we going to try and get something out of it with a tag.  I don't think that would be smart.  We've already screwed the pooch there.

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2 hours ago, DC9 said:

 

I think Cousins is gone but that's also a LOT of money in the line.

 

Allen, the Greek, Lanier are three deep in a four man rotation that is likely going to see the nickel 60 plus percent of the time?

 

And you want to add two to that including the top pick?

I was thinking about the way the Eagle's have done it, plus the 3 you mentioned plus Francis are all together earning less than Cox. The lines are in my view the most important part of your team, I would release McClain to get 1 spot even though it only saves us 1m in cap space. Add Hood to that and your getting Beau Allen for nothing.

 

HTTR 

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35 minutes ago, DC9 said:

 

I would be thrilled with anything for the middle of the defense - be that DL, ILB, or S.  I would.

 

But with the 13th pick in the draft I just don't see drafting a dude who is going to bench a player who you are getting for a steal with 6th round wages in the Greek right now.  That's just not smart.

 

Spend that impact on another part of the defense.  Especially when only two of those guys are going to be on the field for almost 7 out of 10 plays and you have 3 that can do it.

We seem to have a disconnect somewhere.  

 

I'm not suggesting drafting Vea (or Payne) to unseat Ioannidas (or Allen for that matter).  Drafting a true NT that has the versatility to slide to DE (if, say, you liked Beau Allen better at NT than you like McGee and/or Lanier/Hood/McClain at DE, is what I'm going for.  Perhaps even just as important, I'm looking for a DT that can give Allen/Ioannidas a breather at DT as well as provide insurance if one of them goes down.  I don't know if Vea can handle/excel in that role (especially initially as he acclimates to the team/D/NT and DE role), but Beau Allen is a real possibility there.  

 

I think your your general point is that you'd rather not spend both cap and draft capital on the dline when we have 1) other needs, and 2) some capable guys there.  

 

My point is:

1) we need a NT - Hood ain't at all cutting it.  

2) we need a backup DT - love Ioannidas and Allen, but we took a beating when Allen went down.  

3) I don't trust our DEs - I like McGee and Lanier, but McGee might not be better than average and Lanier might never be more than a pass rusher (though I loved his production there).  

4) stopping the run (last year and before) was one of our weakest areas, I think adding a couple guys could pay huge dividends.  

5) stopping the run can have a big trickle down effect - from limiting TOP, to improving our chances on 3rd downs and in the RZ, to giving us better field position.  (sorry, I know you know all of that)

6) we wouldn't be devoting much cap space to Beau Allen, so I don't mind doubling up on dlinemen, even if that 1st round pick is valuable

 

Again, I wouldn't mind targeting ILB in FA instead and dline in the 1st, or dline in FA and ILB in the draft (maybe the 1st if Smith falls to us), but I also don't at all mind doubling up on dline.  Aside from offensive skill positions, I want us to focus on upgrading the trenches.  

 

 

Edit:  dang it, I forgot Francis yet again.  Point still stands though - I like him, but I have no idea if he can be a better than average starter.  

Edited by skinny21

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1 minute ago, markmills67 said:

I was thinking about the way the Eagle's have done it, plus the 3 you mentioned plus Francis are all together earning less than Cox. The lines are in my view the most important part of your team, I would release McClain to get 1 spot even though it only saves us 1m in cap space. Add Hood to that and your getting Beau Allen for nothing.

 

HTTR 

 

Well I would dump Hood cause he's dead weight, but the way the Eagles are doing it is they are drafting well and coaching well.

 

I think Tomsula has been the first d-line coach worth a **** in YEARs around here.  The Eagles lost Bennie Logan and improved.  Sure they added Jernigan, but he was an after thought after his time in Baltimore. 

 

They draft and sign for a vision and a specific role up there.  We don't know our elbows from our ass holes. 

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1 hour ago, skinny21 said:

Yes, it's probably more accurate to consider nickel our base D - we've run far more nickel D than anything else for a number of years.  Even so, we need a starting caliber NT, possibly a starting DE (or at least a competent rotational guy there) as well as a rotational DT.  I think Allen and Vea address all 3 of those - at least theoretically, I'm going purely on what I've read. 

 

My only disconnect is that I am certainly pro defense, I have always been a defense guy.  But even I think signing a dude for the interior and then drafting another dude for the interior with the 13 pick is a bit much when you have so many holes elsewhere.  Especially when you have two dudes who are high-level starters and one dude who is on track to be another high level starter... You'll basically have five starters at DT and then Will Compton as your ILB.

 

But that's just me.  That's all I am saying.

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9 minutes ago, DC9 said:

You'll basically have five starters at DT and then Will Compton as your ILB.

Agreed.  It'll be interesting to see what we do at 13.  Unfortunately, I got a feeling we'll be chasing a signal caller.

 

It's gonna suck letting Kirk walk.  I'd much rather draft a stud ILB.  Hell, I'd even be okay with trying to get another playmaker on offense.  

 

If we let KC go, and still go bargain basement shopping in FA...I'm gonna snap. :)

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@DC9  Well, if it's between a (2nd) dlinemen and Compton, you got me.  I yield. :)

 

Personally, I see two good dlinemen on this squad and three that are average, but could become more.  If Lanier was even just okay vs the run, I'd change my tune, but until then, I think we need a NT and good backup DT... minimum.  Yes, we need help elsewhere, but it starts on the line.  Vigil and Foster (though I'd much prefer Brown and Foster) behind a really stout dline sounds much better to me than two good linebackers behind a line with question marks/holes.  Again, I love Allen and Ioannidas, but if we suck in the 3-4 and suck if one (or both) of them goes down... those ILBs better be damn near unblockable.  

 

I'll add that I'm basing this off Allen/Io playing DT and not playing DE in the 34.  If I'm wrong and they were getting DE snaps too... we're in even bigger need of good rotational guys and backups.  

 

 

All of this aside, I'm convincing myself that Beau Allen would be a nice addition - far cheaper than Logan/Poe/Richardson (and therefore affordable if we have big money tied up in the qb), and versatility to play NT and add a capable backup at DT.  Maybe he'd be the first cheaper FA dlinemen to work out for us in a while... something we've really struggled with.  

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@skinny21 this is all I'm trying to articulate with the Eagles D-line

 

Beau Allen - 7th round pick in 2014

Fletcher Cox - 1st round pick in 2012

Destiny Vaeao - UDFA in 2016

Vinny Curry - 2nd round pick in 2012

Elijah Qualls - 6th round pick in 2017

 

That's their interior rotation.  They draft well and develop (as you can see - Allen has clearly been an investment and they have two dudes waiting in the wings to fill that role in Qualls and Vaeao...).  If you want to build a team properly, you need to let that development happen.  Tomsula is the best in the business.  Look what he did with one offseason with Ioanaiddis. 

 

That said, I wouldn't mind another dominant player in the middle.  All I am saying - is that I think we could and should use that impact elsewhere.  Hopefully James or Smith is there.

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48 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

We seem to have a disconnect somewhere.  

 

I'm not suggesting drafting Vea (or Payne) to unseat Ioannidas (or Allen for that matter).  Drafting a true NT that has the versatility to slide to DE (if, say, you liked Beau Allen better at NT than you like McGee and/or Lanier/Hood/McClain at DE, is what I'm going for.  Perhaps even just as important, I'm looking for a DT that can give Allen/Ioannidas a breather at DT as well as provide insurance if one of them goes down.  I don't know if Vea can handle/excel in that role (especially initially as he acclimates to the team/D/NT and DE role), but Beau Allen is a real possibility there.  

 

I think your your general point is that you'd rather not spend both cap and draft capital on the dline when we have 1) other needs, and 2) some capable guys there.  

 

My point is:

1) we need a NT - Hood ain't at all cutting it.  

2) we need a backup DT - love Ioannidas and Allen, but we took a beating when Allen went down.  

3) I don't trust our DEs - I like McGee and Lanier, but McGee might not be better than average and Lanier might never be more than a pass rusher (though I loved his production there).  

4) stopping the run (last year and before) was one of our weakest areas, I think adding a couple guys could pay huge dividends.  

5) stopping the run can have a big trickle down effect - from limiting TOP, to improving our chances on 3rd downs and in the RZ, to giving us better field position.  (sorry, I know you know all of that)

6) we wouldn't be devoting much cap space to Beau Allen, so I don't mind doubling up on dlinemen, even if that 1st round pick is valuable

 

Again, I wouldn't mind targeting ILB in FA instead and dline in the 1st, or dline in FA and ILB in the draft (maybe the 1st if Smith falls to us), but I also don't at all mind doubling up on dline.  Aside from offensive skill positions, I want us to focus on upgrading the trenches.  

 

 

Edit:  dang it, I forgot Francis yet again.  Point still stands though - I like him, but I have no idea if he can be a better than average starter.  

 

With the 13th pick of the 2018 NFL Draft, the Washington Redskins select:

Da'Ron Payne, DT, Alabama

 

I feel like this changes almost all your concerns.  Interior beef who's athletic enough to line up at end.  He's got a relationship with presumably 2 of our starters, so the transition of system would hopefully be minimal.

 

 

DREAM Scenario, the QB run takes place and Mayfield falls.... Buffalo panics and ships us both of their 1st rounders for our 1st and a 5th... We drop back to 21 and 22.  Payne falls and we get him at 21.. then possibly deal again to get multiple no. 2s.    Dream scenario, i know i know.  Kirk is going to sign with SOMEBODY, so one of the top QBs is going to be there at 13.  If 'our guy' is gone there, I don't want us to just settle based on taking a QB if we're higher on a guy later.  If somone like Mayfield is there, I can see Buffalo freaking out and trying to go up and get him.  Not likely, but possible.  

Edited by OVCChairman

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Anyone wonder if we'd go in for Andy Dalton via trade and what it would cost?  He's making around 16-18 per the next few years.

 

Not sure that the Bengals would give him up after signing Marv to a new deal, though.  That seems to be a "get your **** together and win now or ask out" contract.

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7 minutes ago, DC9 said:

Anyone wonder if we'd go in for Andy Dalton via trade and what it would cost?  He's making around 16-18 per the next few years.

 

Not sure that the Bengals would give him up after signing Marv to a new deal, though.  That seems to be a "get your **** together and win now or ask out" contract.

 

I think Dalton on our planning list just under Alex Smith.

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3 hours ago, DC9 said:

 

Our "Base" is now the nickel.  We were in nickel over 60% of the time last season.  That's why I am saying that you essentially need one more big man to rotate in there with Allen, Ioanaiddis and Lanier.  Sure you need more depth for the 3-4 but not at the expense of other positions in my opinions. 

 

You have three dudes that pushed the pocket as well as we've seen in over a decade from the inside - spend that early pick elsewhere is all I'm saying.

In fact, if Allen is indeed listed as a DT, that would further bolster your case.  Isn't our primary nickel package a 40 nickel?

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4 minutes ago, Darth Tater said:

In fact, if Allen is indeed listed as a DT, that would further bolster your case.  Isn't our primary nickel package a 40 nickel?

 

Yeah I covered that in my initial response to him.  It was over 60% of the snaps the defense was in nickel.

 

I'm not saying I'd be upset about depth there, I'm just saying I'd rather get an ILB or a S.  As long as we invest in the spine it's a win, though - so if it's Payne or Vea or whomever, get an impact player.

8 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

 

I think Dalton on our planning list just under Alex Smith.

 

That's worrisome.  I wonder what we'd have to give up for him.

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