American Domestic Policy - No Clear Solution for "Haves vs. Have nots"

[tshile]

2 hours ago, Vilandil Tasardur said:

 You are statistically more likely to do well if you go to college.

Health, happiness, divorce, employment, retirement age (or ability to retire in general)....

 

pretty much all aspects of life show statistically that the higher of an education you receive the better off you'll be.

 

People are just not honest with themselves. Everyone thinks their child is grand, or capable of grand things, everyone thinks problems are the fault of others, etc.

 

I see more excuses out of people who aren't happy with where they are in life than anything else.

[Springfield]

60k isn't great.

[tshile]

8 minutes ago, Springfield said:

60k isn't great.

Depending on where you live, no, but most places it's a pretty good situation for a job with protection (union) and without incurring 60-100k in debt, for the age of 30.

 

Low barrier to entry job, you can get into right out of high school, and we'll always need plumbers (until the robot plumbing installing revolution)

 

A quick glance at ads for northern VA has it from ~40k up to 100k+ listings depending on years of experience and what sort of work you're doing.

 

 

[Springfield]

1 minute ago, tshile said:

Depending on where you live, no, but most places it's a pretty good situation for a job with protection (union) and without incurring 60-100k in debt, for the age of 30.

 

Low barrier to entry job, you can get into right out of high school, and we'll always need plumbers (until the robot plumbing installing revolution)

 

 

Its not bad.  It just isn't ideal.  There is something for not going 6 figures into debt in your 20's.

 

Plus, there are plenty of blue collar workers with experience that make over 100k.  The ceiling for a mechanic or plumber or electrician is overall lower.  But the path to 6 figures generally just requires hard work.  Hard, back breaking work.  Long hours and low family time.  But 6 figures none the less.

 

I have the utmost respect for skilled tradesmen.

[Larry]

16 hours ago, PeterMP said:

 

It isn't at all clear that eliminating illegal labor will increase wages vs. just encourage more out sourcing and automation and as such actually decrease wages and increase unemployment.

 

Anybody that is telling you with any certainty that reducing illegal immigration is going to increase wages or decrease unemployment is either stupid or lying to you.

 

The impression I have is that most of the jobs that illegals do, are jobs that are really tough to outsource.  

 

If my lettuce is in the US, it's really hard to have it picked in China.  Same thing with replacing the shingles on my house.  The work kinda has to be done where the work is.  

 

Now that doesn't mean that it wouldn't lead to things being outsourced, indirectly.  Maybe if the lettuce farmer can't hire illegals, and paying Americans more money to do it simply causes the grocery stores to stop buying domestic lettuce.  The job hasn't been outsourced, technically.  but the guy who used to be the employer, isn't, any more.  

 

[LadySkinsFan]

14 minutes ago, Springfield said:

 

I have the utmost respect for skilled tradesmen.

 

My daughter's father was a plumber and I learned from him. I used to do all the maintenance on my house except HVAC systems, until the last years and it was easier to pay people to do work.

 

I'm lucky to find some great trades people.

[Larry]

31 minutes ago, Springfield said:

60k isn't great.

 

It's not a millionaire.  But it's (slightly) above the median.  (And that's the median for a household.  Not for an individual.)  

 

The 2015 U.S. median household income was $55,775 (US Census Bureau, PDF.)

 

[bobandweave]

Political party does not make someone a "have" and someone a "have not". What makes someone a have has been detailed here:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurengensler/2016/06/16/one-percent-by-state-income-inequality/#2a4ebe21be3a

 

Quote

In the years following the financial crisis, the top 1% of Americans pocketed 85% of total income growth, according to a study released on Thursday from the Economic Policy Institute. As of 2013, the average family income of the top 1% was 25 times the average income for the other 99%.

 

there it breaks down the 1% in geographical areas. Example if you live in Washington DC and your household income was more then $554,719 then you are a "Have". If you lived in other areas to be a "Have" you may need more money or less money.

 

When wealth is distributed in such a way as this, only the people who want you to stay in poverty while they keep all the money would ever push an agenda that "Have's" and "Have nots" are political parties. They aren't. If you "have" the money guess what? Your a Have! If you don't welcome to the club, your part of the 99% of us that are the "Have Nots". You can be republican, democrat, independent, neutral, whatever and be in the 99%. It's definitely not a political issue and no party has a leg up on the other one here

[tshile]

uh, you don't have to be in the 1% to be a have.

give me a break.

 

[bobandweave]

Sorry tshile but that's exactly what this means.

 

Google the definition of the word "HAVE" and it shows clear to all that the definition says

 

people with plenty of money and possessions.

 

Who has all the money? The 1%. Now if you want to believe that the 1% are not the Have's that is your prerogative but that makes no sense to me.

 

The 1% are the assholes with plenty of money and possessions not the 99%. I make way more then I'll admit writing this here and I admit that this game is rigged

 

Anyone trying to claim that some sort of political belief means you are a Have or one party has a jump on the other with Haves is wrong. To those people I say wise up and realize that when 1% has everything we are all suffering. All of us are hurting. People saying 60k a year is a lot of money, haha no it's not. Not when to get that you have to go 100k+ in debt in loans to make it. 60k a year doesn't get you plenty of money and possessions today. Maybe 75 years ago but not today

 

We are living my friends in economic slavery and we are all in this now. All of us. Unless your fortunate enough to be the 1%.

 

It's time that we the people righted this and had income distribution. Why should the little guy do all the work and reap none of the rewards while the CEO's get millions in year end bonuses? I supported the Wall Street movement years ago, until the assholes turned it political to squash the movement.  That's how this never changes, it will turn political to keep us all down. 1% of the population should not own 50% of everything while the 99% struggle to make house payments and student loan payments and just to put gas in the car. It's not right

 

 

 

 

[tshile]

i have plenty of money and possessions and i'm not in the 1%

 

sorry.

 

[DCSaints_fan]

Going to college and working a blue collar job aren't mutually exclusive.  In fact,  a degree in something like business might actually be useful for tradesmen.  

 

The European countries have a much higher tax burden and spend much less on defense than the US does.  That is why there is not as much income inequality as there is in the states.  Its not some big secret or special circumstance.   

[zoony]

5 hours ago, Springfield said:

60k isn't great.

 

Go find a union pipe fitter your age.  He is making more than you.  By mid 30s you are a project manager or foreman.  These guys make ridiculous amounts of money.  It is truly shocking.  Several of the lawyers and doctors who post here regularly would be humbled.

 

These jobs are unfilled, there is a crisis of labor, and all we hear from the left is how we need more worker training from the government.  Its kind of annoying.quite frankly.  But, you have to put the time in and start at the bottom.

 

3 hours ago, DCSaints_fan said:

Going to college and working a blue collar job aren't mutually exclusive.  In fact,  a degree in something like business might actually be useful for tradesmen.  

 

The European countries have a much higher tax burden and spend much less on defense than the US does.  That is why there is not as much income inequality as there is in the states.  Its not some big secret or special circumstance.   

 

Crazy thing is that firms are so desperate, they would pay for college in a lot of cases

[LadySkinsFan]

That's why I recommend tradeschools like community college, synced up with employers/unions/apprenticeships right away after HS. 

 

Not everyone is cut out for traditional college.

[tshile]

traditional college has also overgrown its usefulness. too many people are investing too much money into an education that the return can never justify the investment. it doesn't matter how well you do in school, if you spend 80k on an education you cannot make a career with and have no other marketable skills for a career then wtf are you doing? (this is a big concern of mine re: free tuition for all [except not all, only some], when it's not free we're obviously making poor decisions about utilizing it, is that supposed to get better if it is free? i would bet worse)

 

there's also a lack of discussion in our society about realistic expectations when talking about what you want to do for a living vs the life you want to lead. there's nothing wrong with wanting expensive stuff, or being a minimalist, or aspiring to be a c-suite at a major company or a grade school teacher. but if you want an expensive sports car and designer clothes then you better find something that pays more than grade school teaching.

 

[Bozo the kKklown]

There is no clear solution.

 

White Supremacy is one issue that needs to be tended too. Poor whites and poor persons of color have the same problems yet goto war against each other because the top of the pyramid pits us against each other.

 

The last 40+ years has seen income leave the poor and middle class and go up to the well-off. We complain about taxpayers having to pay for sporting stadiums which provide no economic value to the municipality. That is actually a tiny number compared to what the major corporations take out in government funding.

 

Money in politics has also destroyed things. Our politicians do not work for the electorate. THey work for their big donors. That is all parties.

 

Education inequality and now purging of public money to private schools is something that needs to be addressed.

 

And lastly our military industrial complex. It makes no sense to put as much money into the military as this country does. A large chunk of that money could fund a lot of our social programs.

 

We also sold out most of our economy to the financial sector.

 

And though this is about domestic policy, if we were just nicer to the rest of the world and admitted our **** ups and rectified them, maybe things would be nicer for us as well.

 

IDK

[The Sisko]

11 hours ago, Kosher Ham said:

Umm.. My SIL works 3 days a week and clears nearly 6 figures as what most would consider a nurse. She is a young 36. I wouldn't call that underpaid. 

 

 

Is my math fuzzy ? 

It depends on what type of nurse you're talking about. If the nurse is working at a nursing home for example, s/he's not making that kind of $. If s/he's a nurse anesthetist, an NP or in upper management, then yeah. For most, compensation is OK but the working conditions suck and you're always at risk of injury due to lifting, workplace violence, etc. The dirty little secret of the nursing shortage in this country is that there isn't one. There's just a shortage of nurses willing to do bedside care.

[Fergasun]

Here's a question.... seems dogma that tax cuts spur the economy..

 

What about raising the minimum wage?. Poor people having more money to spend doesn't create more economic activity?

 

 

 

[LadySkinsFan]

Gee, paying the little people more money means less in CEO pay and dividends for stockholders. We can't have that! /sarcasm

[PeterMP]

20 hours ago, Larry said:

 

The impression I have is that most of the jobs that illegals do, are jobs that are really tough to outsource.  

 

If my lettuce is in the US, it's really hard to have it picked in China.  Same thing with replacing the shingles on my house.  The work kinda has to be done where the work is.  

 

Now that doesn't mean that it wouldn't lead to things being outsourced, indirectly.  Maybe if the lettuce farmer can't hire illegals, and paying Americans more money to do it simply causes the grocery stores to stop buying domestic lettuce.  The job hasn't been outsourced, technically.  but the guy who used to be the employer, isn't, any more.  

 

 

outsource: obtain (goods or a service) from an outside or foreign supplier, especially in place of an internal source.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=Dictionary#dobs=outsource

 

If your lettuce used to come from a farm in the US and now is coming from a farm somewhere else, it has been outsourced.

 

(Though, I don't want to really get in a quibble over the meanings of words.  The larger point is that among economists, there are real questions about the economic effects of ending illegal immigration without some larger plan and that many mainstream economists doubt that just ending illegal immigration will increase employment.  The situation is more complex than that.

 

If illegals are forced to leave the US, the labor supply in Mexico will go up dropping Mexican wages.  The relevant jobs aren't highly skilled in many cases, but they do have some skills and we will lose those skills and Mexico will gain them.  The combination makes the Mexican labor market even more attractive to US companies.  Also, illegals that are here actually spend a lot of the money in the US economy (as compared to what they make), which then creates jobs for other people.)

[skinny21]

2 hours ago, Fergasun said:

Here's a question.... seems dogma that tax cuts spur the economy..

 

What about raising the minimum wage?. Poor people having more money to spend doesn't create more economic activity?

 

 

 

The article "A letter to my fellow plutocrats" (or something like that) posted somewhere in the tailgate was a very interesting read about this subject.

 

It breaks down the economic growth in Seattle after they raised wages. 

[mcsluggo]

On 9/5/2017 at 11:05 PM, The Sisko said:

Income redistribution upwards? Not directed at you, but we were and are constantly told for 30 years or more that the US has been *GASP* teetering on the brink of communism. What with income and other taxes on the wealthy dropping like a rock, ever expanding corporate welfare and stagnant wages for all but the upper class, it's a wonder we're not all calling each other comrade by now while toiling away on our collective farms. ??

 

 

 

you haven't been told that by ME!!! 

[mcsluggo]

20 hours ago, Springfield said:

 

Its not bad.  It just isn't ideal.  There is something for not going 6 figures into debt in your 20's.

 

Plus, there are plenty of blue collar workers with experience that make over 100k.  The ceiling for a mechanic or plumber or electrician is overall lower.  But the path to 6 figures generally just requires hard work.  Hard, back breaking work.  Long hours and low family time.  But 6 figures none the less.

 

I have the utmost respect for skilled tradesmen.

 

 

you aren't just going into debt... you are also deferring earning anything for the years you are in school.

 

i went to school for a looooooong time, and really didn't start to earn a paycheck (other than on a subsistence/pay for school level) until my mid thirties.    from a pure financial standpoint,  I am not making enough more now to make up for 10-15-ish years of making nothing.      (of course....if i had gotten off my duff and written my dissertation faster, it would've changed the calculus...a little) 

 

edit... on the other hand.... didn't go into any debt.   I got research and teaching assistant jobs and fellowships that paid for tuition and enough to <barely> live on.       

[LadySkinsFan]

The Satanic Temple challenges Missouri's anti-abortion laws as unConstitutional under Missouri's Constitution because it restricts women's religious freedom as the laws are based on illegal Christian doctrine.

 

http://deadstate.org/satanic-temple-argues-that-missouris-extreme-abortion-laws-violate-their-religious-freedomfbrefreshforce/

 

 

[twa]

What Christian doctrine would that be?

 

add

 life at conception is basic biology, if ya want to qualify individual, that is ultimately determined about 14 days after fertilization(can be more than one individual, but not less than one)

Surely they are not denying human?